Should Groundspeak get into the stats business?

[+RonGerth]

An easy solution for you. Don't look at your numbers and quit obsessing about all of the others who are looking at your name and numbers on the lists. A simple mind over matter deal, if you don't mind it won't matter. It is not like (I hope) people are running up to you and rubbing their numbers in your face and laughing at you or something. I am not a very active cacher as far as numbers goes so if they laughing at people I should be getting the treatment too and so far nobody has rubbed it in my face.

 

Ron

 

You miss my point. I don't want to see this hobby turned into a competitive sport. Some are urging a stat driven turn to the game, I don't see that as an advantage. I certainly see no reason why I should be included in any such scheme.

 

Look at it this way. Do you ever eat dinner out? Well I want to see how many restaurants you have been to. How many unique restaurants? How many one star? How many 3 star? How often do you eat out? When was the last time? How many days in a row have you eaten out? None of my business is it? If I started collecting that data you would probably get a restraining order filed against me. How is it any different than sites mining similar data about my caching habits?

 

I understand your point and believe it or not I agree with most of what you are saying, but I also like to have the option of a stats page. I am not competing for numbers but do know a cacher or 2 around here who do, I have had one of them tell me to my face that their whole goal in life was to get their numbers higher than mine. Which numbers I asked? The number of level 5 caches I have? The number of drive by 1/1 caches I have? The number of times we have gone all day on a hike, picked up 1 or 2 caches but, wow, the experience of those. They do not show up in a stats page as anything spectacular but we still talk about a cache (gckbrf) that we hit a few years ago because of the experience of it. Personally I am in this for my own pleasure and the pleasure of my kids, but I will also admit that I like to look at my stats page to "see how I am doing". Just think that since GC is my main source of geocaching and that I am not really that "internet literate" that it would be nice to have all of my needs met by a single site rather than have to run around the internet looking for things that I am not sure exist or what they are called or how to find them with all of the other stuff out there.

 

Like I said before, I am willing to pay somebody and reward their efforts to create something that I like and use.

 

Ron

[+Totem Clan]

 

Some day, if aren't careful, you'll find a grumpy Old Fart on your doorstep with a stein in his hand. Then you'll wonder if an open invite was such a bright idea.

 

 

Hmmm...North Dakota is a long ways away but if I'm ever in the area I'll look you up!

I'll keep the beer chilled and the GPSr ready.

[+gof1]

 

Some day, if aren't careful, you'll find a grumpy Old Fart on your doorstep with a stein in his hand. Then you'll wonder if an open invite was such a bright idea.

 

 

Hmmm...North Dakota is a long ways away but if I'm ever in the area I'll look you up!

I'll keep the beer chilled and the GPSr ready.

 

I don't brew my own, but if you ever find yourself in Western New York I'm sure I can find a chilled bottle or two dozen around here.

[+gof1]

An easy solution for you. Don't look at your numbers and quit obsessing about all of the others who are looking at your name and numbers on the lists. A simple mind over matter deal, if you don't mind it won't matter. It is not like (I hope) people are running up to you and rubbing their numbers in your face and laughing at you or something. I am not a very active cacher as far as numbers goes so if they laughing at people I should be getting the treatment too and so far nobody has rubbed it in my face.

 

Ron

 

You miss my point. I don't want to see this hobby turned into a competitive sport. Some are urging a stat driven turn to the game, I don't see that as an advantage. I certainly see no reason why I should be included in any such scheme.

 

Look at it this way. Do you ever eat dinner out? Well I want to see how many restaurants you have been to. How many unique restaurants? How many one star? How many 3 star? How often do you eat out? When was the last time? How many days in a row have you eaten out? None of my business is it? If I started collecting that data you would probably get a restraining order filed against me. How is it any different than sites mining similar data about my caching habits?

 

I understand your point and believe it or not I agree with most of what you are saying, but I also like to have the option of a stats page. I am not competing for numbers but do know a cacher or 2 around here who do, I have had one of them tell me to my face that their whole goal in life was to get their numbers higher than mine. Which numbers I asked? The number of level 5 caches I have? The number of drive by 1/1 caches I have? The number of times we have gone all day on a hike, picked up 1 or 2 caches but, wow, the experience of those. They do not show up in a stats page as anything spectacular but we still talk about a cache (gckbrf) that we hit a few years ago because of the experience of it. Personally I am in this for my own pleasure and the pleasure of my kids, but I will also admit that I like to look at my stats page to "see how I am doing". Just think that since GC is my main source of geocaching and that I am not really that "internet literate" that it would be nice to have all of my needs met by a single site rather than have to run around the internet looking for things that I am not sure exist or what they are called or how to find them with all of the other stuff out there.

 

Like I said before, I am willing to pay somebody and reward their efforts to create something that I like and use.

 

Ron

 

Then what's the problem? Any reason I can't ask to opt out?

 

It is my preference that GC doesn't go in that direction. If they do I would rather that I have the option to stay out of it. That doesn't mean I want to ignore it, it means i don't want my stats to be available. I see no reason why I should be a part of these stat lists and comparisons. I find it rather annoying that third party sites are listing my "ranking" as it is. It isn't anyones business but mine.

[+sbell111]

An easy solution for you. Don't look at your numbers and quit obsessing about all of the others who are looking at your name and numbers on the lists. A simple mind over matter deal, if you don't mind it won't matter. It is not like (I hope) people are running up to you and rubbing their numbers in your face and laughing at you or something. I am not a very active cacher as far as numbers goes so if they laughing at people I should be getting the treatment too and so far nobody has rubbed it in my face.

 

Ron

You miss my point. I don't want to see this hobby turned into a competitive sport. Some are urging a stat driven turn to the game, I don't see that as an advantage. I certainly see no reason why I should be included in any such scheme.

 

Look at it this way. Do you ever eat dinner out? Well I want to see how many restaurants you have been to. How many unique restaurants? How many one star? How many 3 star? How often do you eat out? When was the last time? How many days in a row have you eaten out? None of my business is it? If I started collecting that data you would probably get a restraining order filed against me. How is it any different than sites mining similar data about my caching habits?

I understand your point and believe it or not I agree with most of what you are saying, but I also like to have the option of a stats page. I am not competing for numbers but do know a cacher or 2 around here who do, I have had one of them tell me to my face that their whole goal in life was to get their numbers higher than mine. Which numbers I asked? The number of level 5 caches I have? The number of drive by 1/1 caches I have? The number of times we have gone all day on a hike, picked up 1 or 2 caches but, wow, the experience of those. They do not show up in a stats page as anything spectacular but we still talk about a cache (gckbrf) that we hit a few years ago because of the experience of it. Personally I am in this for my own pleasure and the pleasure of my kids, but I will also admit that I like to look at my stats page to "see how I am doing". Just think that since GC is my main source of geocaching and that I am not really that "internet literate" that it would be nice to have all of my needs met by a single site rather than have to run around the internet looking for things that I am not sure exist or what they are called or how to find them with all of the other stuff out there.

 

Like I said before, I am willing to pay somebody and reward their efforts to create something that I like and use.

 

Ron

Then what's the problem? Any reason I can't ask to opt out?

 

It is my preference that GC doesn't go in that direction. If they do I would rather that I have the option to stay out of it. That doesn't mean I want to ignore it, it means i don't want my stats to be available. I see no reason why I should be a part of these stat lists and comparisons. I find it rather annoying that third party sites are listing my "ranking" as it is. It isn't anyones business but mine.

That's the very reason that the status quo is best. If you don't want your stats to be included in INATN, all you have to do is NOT upload your PQ to the site. Edited April 8, 2008 by sbell111

[+gof1]

An easy solution for you. Don't look at your numbers and quit obsessing about all of the others who are looking at your name and numbers on the lists. A simple mind over matter deal, if you don't mind it won't matter. It is not like (I hope) people are running up to you and rubbing their numbers in your face and laughing at you or something. I am not a very active cacher as far as numbers goes so if they laughing at people I should be getting the treatment too and so far nobody has rubbed it in my face.

 

Ron

You miss my point. I don't want to see this hobby turned into a competitive sport. Some are urging a stat driven turn to the game, I don't see that as an advantage. I certainly see no reason why I should be included in any such scheme.

 

Look at it this way. Do you ever eat dinner out? Well I want to see how many restaurants you have been to. How many unique restaurants? How many one star? How many 3 star? How often do you eat out? When was the last time? How many days in a row have you eaten out? None of my business is it? If I started collecting that data you would probably get a restraining order filed against me. How is it any different than sites mining similar data about my caching habits?

I understand your point and believe it or not I agree with most of what you are saying, but I also like to have the option of a stats page. I am not competing for numbers but do know a cacher or 2 around here who do, I have had one of them tell me to my face that their whole goal in life was to get their numbers higher than mine. Which numbers I asked? The number of level 5 caches I have? The number of drive by 1/1 caches I have? The number of times we have gone all day on a hike, picked up 1 or 2 caches but, wow, the experience of those. They do not show up in a stats page as anything spectacular but we still talk about a cache (gckbrf) that we hit a few years ago because of the experience of it. Personally I am in this for my own pleasure and the pleasure of my kids, but I will also admit that I like to look at my stats page to "see how I am doing". Just think that since GC is my main source of geocaching and that I am not really that "internet literate" that it would be nice to have all of my needs met by a single site rather than have to run around the internet looking for things that I am not sure exist or what they are called or how to find them with all of the other stuff out there.

 

Like I said before, I am willing to pay somebody and reward their efforts to create something that I like and use.

 

Ron

Then what's the problem? Any reason I can't ask to opt out?

 

It is my preference that GC doesn't go in that direction. If they do I would rather that I have the option to stay out of it. That doesn't mean I want to ignore it, it means i don't want my stats to be available. I see no reason why I should be a part of these stat lists and comparisons. I find it rather annoying that third party sites are listing my "ranking" as it is. It isn't anyones business but mine.

That's the very reason that the status quo is best. If you don't want your stats to be included in INATN, all you have to do is NOT upload your PQ to the site.

 

Agreed.

[+Totem Clan]

I agree also. I'm not saying we should ban stats or that you should not be able to do whatever you want with your stats. I just don't see why we should pay more, or ask GS to do more without paying for it, when what we have now works fine.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Totem Clan

[Mushtang]

Why would you ever assume that those cache finds should not increment those cachers' find counts?

That's not even a question that makes sense. "Assume," "should not?" I think my opinion is clear, very clear. I don't want folks seeking our caches simply to increment their find count. Period. That's not what we've placed the cache for. There's no assumption involved. If the only reason to seek one of our caches is to increment your find count then I'd just rather you didn't.

 

In fact, it's my prerogative, don'tcha think? I've listed my latest caches on a different site. I don't care for their solution as it takes the concept what what I don't like about find counts and pushes it even further.

 

Now, do you think those finding our caches on that other site have their counts incremented here? Nope. Do you think I should "assume" their counts "should not" be incremented here?

 

Also, aren't temporary caches still caches none the less? Why not increment find counts with those? Why should those who rail against logging temporary event cache "assume" those caches "should not" count?

 

Quite a bit too far? I don't think so. In fact, it falls right in line with the examples that are already accepted I mention above.

Sounds a little strange to me too. You put out a cache for the general public to find, and then you still want control over who finds them, or control why they'd want to find them. You're not willing to let people find them for their own reasons, they have to want to find them for reasons you deem worthy.

 

If you only want people to find your caches for approved reasons, wouldn't it be easier just to hand out coordinates and descriptions at events to people you approve of, instead of having them published on the site?

 

If I find 200 caches (for whatever reason) I want my find count to show 200 Finds. I don't want it to show 120 Finds because 80 caches were hidden by hiders who didn't like what was on my mind when I was looking for them.

[+gof1]

Why would you ever assume that those cache finds should not increment those cachers' find counts?

That's not even a question that makes sense. "Assume," "should not?" I think my opinion is clear, very clear. I don't want folks seeking our caches simply to increment their find count. Period. That's not what we've placed the cache for. There's no assumption involved. If the only reason to seek one of our caches is to increment your find count then I'd just rather you didn't.

 

In fact, it's my prerogative, don'tcha think? I've listed my latest caches on a different site. I don't care for their solution as it takes the concept what what I don't like about find counts and pushes it even further.

 

Now, do you think those finding our caches on that other site have their counts incremented here? Nope. Do you think I should "assume" their counts "should not" be incremented here?

 

Also, aren't temporary caches still caches none the less? Why not increment find counts with those? Why should those who rail against logging temporary event cache "assume" those caches "should not" count?

 

Quite a bit too far? I don't think so. In fact, it falls right in line with the examples that are already accepted I mention above.

Sounds a little strange to me too. You put out a cache for the general public to find, and then you still want control over who finds them, or control why they'd want to find them. You're not willing to let people find them for their own reasons, they have to want to find them for reasons you deem worthy.

 

If you only want people to find your caches for approved reasons, wouldn't it be easier just to hand out coordinates and descriptions at events to people you approve of, instead of having them published on the site?

 

If I find 200 caches (for whatever reason) I want my find count to show 200 Finds. I don't want it to show 120 Finds because 80 caches were hidden by hiders who didn't like what was on my mind when I was looking for them.

 

I think it is simpler than that. You hid the caches with the knowledge that they are going to advance someones find count. It may not have been the motivating reason for your hide, but it wasn't a surprise.

 

The personal caching stats aren't quite the same situation. When starting out few new cachers realize that these stats can be tracked.

 

My personal stance is that given the option I would hide my stats. even the find count. As it stands I can't. Oh well.

[+Seasoned Warrior]

I certainly have no desire to see cache numbers stats. One of the problems I've seen on this site is the assumption of relative worth of a cacher's opinion based solely on the number of finds.

[+gof1]

I certainly have no desire to see cache numbers stats. One of the problems I've seen on this site is the assumption of relative worth of a cacher's opinion based solely on the number of finds.

 

A number without meaning. Every cacher seems to subscribe to their own method of logging. Log these, don't log those, DNF is really a find, the log was too wet so don't count it, I replaced the missing cache so it counts. There are almost as many systems as cachers. Basing a cachers worth on those meaningless comparisons is, well, meaningless.

[+iambobbrown]

Actually, I would like to see stats that generally do not have to do with people. I would like to know which state has the most caches per square mile. Which cache is the has the most logs? Which cache is the most active? Perhaps those two stats by state. How about a list of the oldest caches for each state?

 

In terms of people stats, I would like to know who has found the most, who has the longest streak? I know that will probably start a competition, but since there is no monetary prize, who cares?

 

Would I pay for them? I think they should be shown to Premium members only. That might get more members to sign up for Premium service.

[+Renegade Knight]

Did I hear caching and beer? Where does the line start?

At my front door. I have a standing invitation to any and all cachers for homebrews and some caching.

 

Someday I may take you up on that. I'll have to count my beers though. Too many and I may sing. That's not good for anyone. Yup, beer stats are important.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+KoosKoos]

I certainly have no desire to see cache numbers stats. One of the problems I've seen on this site is the assumption of relative worth of a cacher's opinion based solely on the number of finds.

 

A number without meaning. Every cacher seems to subscribe to their own method of logging. Log these, don't log those, DNF is really a find, the log was too wet so don't count it, I replaced the missing cache so it counts. There are almost as many systems as cachers. Basing a cachers worth on those meaningless comparisons is, well, meaningless.

 

You don't have as many smilies as me, so you obviously don't know what you're talking about here!

 

I really like the stats and the maps even more. I'd love to be able to get them all rolled up into the "My Account" page here and I really don't care who looks at my stats or what they think as a result.

 

However, I'm in the camp of agreeing that I'd prefer to see the developers spend more time on scaling the site and adding many other features before they worry about stats.

 

Since TPTB have stated numerous times that they have no interest in fostering competition and believe more stats only fuel that, I think this is all a moo point. (Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. It's moo.)

[+Blaidd-Drwg]

I agree also. I'm not saying we should ban stats or that you should not be able to do whatever you want with your stats. I just don't see why we should pay more, or ask GS to do more without paying for it, when what we have now works fine.

 

As for paying for stats, I'm perfectly happy using GSAK and the FindStatGen3 macro to create my view of those stats. Plus the GSAK cost is a one time cost. I love to see some of my numbers add up. Things like Most Easterly, Most Northernly, Most Southern, Most Westerly caches and the distance from cache to cache.

 

As for the beer offers that are flowing around, I always keep a fridge full of good brews. Cachers are always welcome

[CoyoteRed]

If you only want people to find your caches for approved reasons, wouldn't it be easier just to hand out coordinates and descriptions at events to people you approve of, instead of having them published on the site?

At this point in time, yes. But those other caches are already out and I'll allow them to stand. ...for now. Take a look at when the last ones were put out. Caches placed after that date are listed elsewhere. I have a few caches on hold as I'm still in search of a solution that I like.

[+TrailGators]

I certainly have no desire to see cache numbers stats. One of the problems I've seen on this site is the assumption of relative worth of a cacher's opinion based solely on the number of finds.

 

A number without meaning. Every cacher seems to subscribe to their own method of logging. Log these, don't log those, DNF is really a find, the log was too wet so don't count it, I replaced the missing cache so it counts. There are almost as many systems as cachers. Basing a cachers worth on those meaningless comparisons is, well, meaningless.

 

You don't have as many smilies as me, so you obviously don't know what you're talking about here!

 

I really like the stats and the maps even more. I'd love to be able to get them all rolled up into the "My Account" page here and I really don't care who looks at my stats or what they think as a result.

 

However, I'm in the camp of agreeing that I'd prefer to see the developers spend more time on scaling the site and adding many other features before they worry about stats.

 

Since TPTB have stated numerous times that they have no interest in fostering competition and believe more stats only fuel that, I think this is all a moo point. (Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion. It just doesn't matter. It's moo.)

One of the great things about the forums is that we don't sit around and talk about how many caches we all have found.

[+sbell111]

If you only want people to find your caches for approved reasons, wouldn't it be easier just to hand out coordinates and descriptions at events to people you approve of, instead of having them published on the site?

At this point in time, yes. But those other caches are already out and I'll allow them to stand. ...for now. Take a look at when the last ones were put out. Caches placed after that date are listed elsewhere. I have a few caches on hold as I'm still in search of a solution that I like.

Vinny? Is that you?

[+JT3Halls]

 

Some day, if aren't careful, you'll find a grumpy Old Fart on your doorstep with a stein in his hand. Then you'll wonder if an open invite was such a bright idea.

 

 

Hmmm...North Dakota is a long ways away but if I'm ever in the area I'll look you up!

I'll keep the beer chilled and the GPSr ready.

 

I don't brew my own, but if you ever find yourself in Western New York I'm sure I can find a chilled bottle or two dozen around here.

A cold beer would be nice right now, but alas in southern Iraq there are laws against alcoholic beverages, plus these types of products are prohibited in the Iraqi theater by MNF-I. Oh well, I guess someone else will just have to drink one for me as I still have about 60 days left in country.

[+sbell111]

... Oh well, I guess someone else will just have to drink one for me as I still have about 60 days left in country.

Gotcha covered.

[+gof1]

 

Some day, if aren't careful, you'll find a grumpy Old Fart on your doorstep with a stein in his hand. Then you'll wonder if an open invite was such a bright idea.

 

 

Hmmm...North Dakota is a long ways away but if I'm ever in the area I'll look you up!

I'll keep the beer chilled and the GPSr ready.

 

I don't brew my own, but if you ever find yourself in Western New York I'm sure I can find a chilled bottle or two dozen around here.

A cold beer would be nice right now, but alas in southern Iraq there are laws against alcoholic beverages, plus these types of products are prohibited in the Iraqi theater by MNF-I. Oh well, I guess someone else will just have to drink one for me as I still have about 60 days left in country.

 

If you find yourself passing through the Buffalo area just drop me a line and I'll help you make up for lost beer time.

[+cerberus1]

I certainly have no desire to see cache numbers stats. One of the problems I've seen on this site is the assumption of relative worth of a cacher's opinion based solely on the number of finds.

 

Well, sorta...

Actually the folks who have the most POSTS (over 2,000) usually have LESS than 700 finds.

Maybe it's a, "Those who can't do, teach" kinda thing.

 

I DO like the maps, but can do without the stats and what appears to go with it.

You can still click on a cachers' profile and get an idea of what, where and how they like to play. There you can experience the cacher, not just scan a stat chart.

 

Just a few weeks ago, some out-of-state folks did the 50-caches-in-a-day thing in our neck and left a lot of caches trashed. A local logs "finds" when he does maintenance and double-posts events .

 

For those types of "cachers", it's ALL about the numbers. And sometimes we suffer for it.

I like things with GC.com just fine, the way they are.

 

Cache safe.

[+cerberus1]

In case anyone's curious... I checked stats.

[+sbell111]

...Well, sorta...

Actually the folks who have the most POSTS (over 2,000) usually have LESS than 700 finds.

Maybe it's a, "Those who can't do, teach" kinda thing.

Just a couple quick thoughts:

 

First, that hasn't been my experience. I also checked the stats. Of the top ten posters who are not moderators, only two have fewer finds than 700. On average, they have found nearly 1800 caches each. If you look at the top ten posters and include the mods, the average falls to 1564 finds. It should be noted that the people who drag down the average are people like Jeremy who, as I understand it, primarily go after the caches requiring a nice hike.

 

Second, isn't 700 finds a honking lot of finds? It seems to me that someone with 700 finds probably has found enough that they have a valid opinion on many issues.

 

Third, you appear to be suggesting that people with lots of posts are somehow less worthy. In my experience, it just means that they have responsibilities that tie them to a computer.

Edited April 9, 2008 by sbell111

[+RonGerth]

Or live in an area that is under populated by caches. If a person in this state is going to have that many caches you are going to have to spend your time driving which kind of takes away from caching. I was in Mpls last summer with a few of my boys skating and I got about 100 caches in 6 weeks, not a lot but enough to say I was doing some caching. I ran a pocket query in that area and when I set the number to 500 I only picked up a small region before I hit the limit. I didn't spend the time looking at how many total there are in that area, Denver, Salt Lake City or some of those big cities, but I think that before you grab a number like 700 and declare it to be magical you need to add some other factors too before you decide if a person has a valid opinion. Personally, I think a valid opinion is a person with 1 cache because they are a cacher and have the right to voice their opinions.

 

Just a thought,

 

Ron

[+Photographer Jim]

OK, I like stats. Well, more specifically, I like to look at MY stats. I enjoy scanning the map and watching states I've cached in fill up with color; I enjoy watching my finds graph climb (sometimes slowly, sometimes steeply, giving me an idea of my recent level of activity, and preventing me from becoming too sedentary for too long). I enjoy the difficulty/terrain chart, and its ability to help me pinpoint combinations which will add to my variety of experience. I like being able to easily assess how I am progressing toward goals I have set for my desired level of activity.

 

I use INATN to generate my stats, and post them on my profile page where they are convenient for me to access. Unfortunately, that site has been inaccessable lately (overloaded server), so I have not been able to update my stats page (a disappointment in that I have just completed a large trip where I did a significant amount of caching).

 

For me, the ability to easily access stats that interest me, and which help me to evaluate my geocaching experience, is something that adds to my enjoyment of the activity. So, given its value to me, and the convenience that having that service integrated into GC.com would bring, I'd personally welcome having that feature added to my Premium membership, and I would not object to having a small fee added in order to have it.

 

So much for a direct answer to the original question.

 

As far as the pros and cons of having the ability to generate stats in general, and their display by those who choose to display them, my experience is that this is generally a non-issue. I have yet to have anyone comment upon, or show interest in, what my stats are. I have yet to experience anything that indicates that displaying my stats on my profile generated an environment of competition that in turn generated negative caching experiences (for either myself or someone else). When I have attended events, the conversation has not drifted into # of finds, but rather has focused on things such as "What did you think of XYZ Cache", or "What GPS are you using? - Have you seen the new _________?" I guess I'm still waiting to meet the cacher for whom the numbers are everything, and as a result dampens my enjoyment of this activity. I simply don't see the negative impact that integrating this service would bring.

[sdarken]

Nicely said Photographer Jim. I think you and I share a similar perspective on stats. For the most part they are a pretty personal thing :- probably about as interesting as vacation photos are to people that weren't there.

 

The discussion about whether Find Counts should exist and what they mean is several years too late. I dont think there is any way they will disappear however I'd support a change to the website whereby people could opt out of having their own find count calculated/displayed. It would be fascinating to see how many people would take advantage of that functionality if it ever existed.

 

As for whether you can judge a person by their find count, I think anyone with the slightest intelligence already knows that comparing one person to the next based on find count is a pretty meaningless thing to do and I've never heard it suggested that a person with 2000 finds is in any way superior to someone with 250 finds.

 

Obviously, if someone has only ever found 5 caches and has 2 weeks experience there are certain opinions that are likely to be out of sync with more experienced cachers ("What a cool light pole cache"). In the same way that I wouldn't trust the opinion of a mechanic that had only ever fixed 1 car, I'd probably judge a cacher with 2 weeks experience in the same way. If I was talking to a couple of mechanics that had fixed 300 or 700 cars respectively, I'd probably try judge what they are saying by other ways (attitude & clarity), and a give their relative experience roughly equal weight.

 

I understand when people say "I dont want stats because I'd rather see Groundspeak focus their resources elsewhere". I dont understand the attitude of "I dont like stats therefore I dont want you to have them either". I presume that for some people, the find count subject is painful enough that any discussion about stats gets treated with the same negative attitude regardless of how innocuous the stats are.

[+MountainMudbug]

............ I think that the pursuit of numbers has had a negative affect on the sport and I'm against anything that would encourage it.

 

You da man, briansnat.

[+flask]

To TPTB,

 

Please. In the unlikely event you decide to generate a "stats page" I would like to be excluded from the stats. <snip>

I agree. I do not like it when someone decides to start "competing" with me and saying "I only need 12 more caches to catch up to you." Ick! It is like having a stalker . . .

 

yes! when people started trying to catch me, i started not logging caches. and then i got depressed about it and stopped finding them.

 

unfortunately, for a couple of years i was the #1 cacher in my state. the first cacher to hit 100, 250, 500, 1000... the only one to have found an APE cache, the first to bring jeeps to this state, the first to bring in some hide methods, some container types. until crashco and i did it, nobody here had ever gone out at 0430 for a first find.

 

it just about breaks my heart when people start making trashy hides and finds the norm. it's a fine line; cheap numbers are fun sometimes. sadly, there's a new breed of cacher that makes cheap numbers the main portion of the game.

 

what i first loved about it was the secret web that caches and cachers trace on the land. i loved the idea that i might sit alone on a cold mountaintop holding a logbook that dozens of people before me had found and held in just the same way. i loved following the hider's intent, trusting that i was being brought somewhere to have an experience. i loved telling the story, and reading other people's stories.

 

i used to love reading people's profiles; before stat generators, people used to write stuff about themselves. now you see pages of maps and stats. please. who really cares to see that, unless they're measuring themselves up against it?

 

we've lost something valuable; something we are not likely to get back. it's the difference between mahler symphonies and advertising jingles, the difference between box wine and a fine vintage. a lot of people nowadays don't understand the best of caching any more than they do fine china or a slow kiss.

[+Miragee]

Welcome back, flask! Good to read your wonderful words again!

[+TrailGators]

To TPTB,

 

Please. In the unlikely event you decide to generate a "stats page" I would like to be excluded from the stats. <snip>

I agree. I do not like it when someone decides to start "competing" with me and saying "I only need 12 more caches to catch up to you." Ick! It is like having a stalker . . .

 

yes! when people started trying to catch me, i started not logging caches. and then i got depressed about it and stopped finding them.

 

unfortunately, for a couple of years i was the #1 cacher in my state. the first cacher to hit 100, 250, 500, 1000... the only one to have found an APE cache, the first to bring jeeps to this state, the first to bring in some hide methods, some container types. until crashco and i did it, nobody here had ever gone out at 0430 for a first find.

 

it just about breaks my heart when people start making trashy hides and finds the norm. it's a fine line; cheap numbers are fun sometimes. sadly, there's a new breed of cacher that makes cheap numbers the main portion of the game.

 

what i first loved about it was the secret web that caches and cachers trace on the land. i loved the idea that i might sit alone on a cold mountaintop holding a logbook that dozens of people before me had found and held in just the same way. i loved following the hider's intent, trusting that i was being brought somewhere to have an experience. i loved telling the story, and reading other people's stories.

 

i used to love reading people's profiles; before stat generators, people used to write stuff about themselves. now you see pages of maps and stats. please. who really cares to see that, unless they're measuring themselves up against it?

 

we've lost something valuable; something we are not likely to get back. it's the difference between mahler symphonies and advertising jingles, the difference between box wine and a fine vintage. a lot of people nowadays don't understand the best of caching any more than they do fine china or a slow kiss.

I used to think that way but a sebatical has made me realize that it's all what you make it. All you have to do is say "Who cares? I don't!" Then you can do whatever you feel like doing. There are a lot of us that enjoy those quiet moments out in nature with no pressing need other than to take in a deep breath of fresh air and take in the view!

[+webscouter.]

This post shows the thing that baffles me.

 

First let me say that I have read many of your logs with much enjoyment and several of the caches that you enjoyed are on my "To do if I ever get in the area" list.

 

I find cachers in the forums who have what I think are similar interest and caching enjoyment and try to find caches they liked when in their area. Just this week I have found three caches on The Leprechauns favorite list. This is also why I have sent several of you friends request.

 

 

yes! when people started trying to catch me, i started not logging caches. and then i got depressed about it and stopped finding them.

 

unfortunately, for a couple of years i was the #1 cacher in my state. the first cacher to hit 100, 250, 500, 1000... the only one to have found an APE cache, the first to bring jeeps to this state, the first to bring in some hide methods, some container types. until crashco and i did it, nobody here had ever gone out at 0430 for a first find.

 

 

This paragraph shows that on some level you like stats. I wonder why you let others reduce your enjoyment of the game.

 

 

it just about breaks my heart when people start making trashy hides and finds the norm. it's a fine line; cheap numbers are fun sometimes. sadly, there's a new breed of cacher that makes cheap numbers the main portion of the game.

 

what i first loved about it was the secret web that caches and cachers trace on the land. i loved the idea that i might sit alone on a cold mountaintop holding a logbook that dozens of people before me had found and held in just the same way. i loved following the hider's intent, trusting that i was being brought somewhere to have an experience. i loved telling the story, and reading other people's stories.

 

Here you state that you love reading others stories. Yet you get upset by others trying to in some way to duplicate your adventures by "catching" up to you.

 

i used to love reading people's profiles; before stat generators, people used to write stuff about themselves. now you see pages of maps and stats. please. who really cares to see that, unless they're measuring themselves up against it?

 

we've lost something valuable; something we are not likely to get back. it's the difference between mahler symphonies and advertising jingles, the difference between box wine and a fine vintage. a lot of people nowadays don't understand the best of caching any more than they do fine china or a slow kiss.

 

My stats pages show more than just maps. They also show my favorite caches. My personal goals and ambitions, and my progress towards those goals.

 

My numbers are not a result of trying to increase my counts but of many days of enjoyment reaching goals and enjoyable hunts. I hope that if you look at my profile you can see that enjoyment and that the logs that I link to would provide you with some incentive to log your caching exploits again so that I can get the same vicarious thrill from reading your logs.

 

BTW, My wife and I enjoyed listening to your Christmas music again this year.

[+flask]

I used to think that way but a sebatical has made me realize that it's all what you make it. All you have to do is say "Who cares? I don't!" Then you can do whatever you feel like doing. There are a lot of us that enjoy those quiet moments out in nature with no pressing need other than to take in a deep breath of fresh air and take in the view!

 

perhaps my thinking is not as advanced as yours, but i care passionately about it.

 

for me, my life as target became unbearable. i did not wish to find any caches with people coming to catch my numbers. i didn't play the game their way, but i couldn't keep them from involving me. i couldn't stop them from competing with me, so i just quit. i don't go to events. i don't go on group caching parties. and if i agree to go caching with crashco (and that's a big "if") i will make sure before we leave that no one else is in attendance.

 

and so i am doing precisely what i feel like doing, which is not only NOT caching for stats, but depriving other people of comparing themselves to me or my stats in any meaningful way.

 

someday soon i'm going to pick a week and stay up around the clock to pick up every first find around here, just to prove that i still can.

 

and then i'm going to not log any of them, not report my numbers, and i'll go back into retirement.

 

if anyone wants to complain about my attitude, i'm going to suggest that they simply say "who cares?" and don't.

[+TrailGators]

I used to think that way but a sebatical has made me realize that it's all what you make it. All you have to do is say "Who cares? I don't!" Then you can do whatever you feel like doing. There are a lot of us that enjoy those quiet moments out in nature with no pressing need other than to take in a deep breath of fresh air and take in the view!

 

perhaps my thinking is not as advanced as yours, but i care passionately about it.

 

for me, my life as target became unbearable. i did not wish to find any caches with people coming to catch my numbers. i didn't play the game their way, but i couldn't keep them from involving me. i couldn't stop them from competing with me, so i just quit. i don't go to events. i don't go on group caching parties. and if i agree to go caching with crashco (and that's a big "if") i will make sure before we leave that no one else is in attendance.

 

and so i am doing precisely what i feel like doing, which is not only NOT caching for stats, but depriving other people of comparing themselves to me or my stats in any meaningful way.

 

someday soon i'm going to pick a week and stay up around the clock to pick up every first find around here, just to prove that i still can.

 

and then i'm going to not log any of them, not report my numbers, and i'll go back into retirement.

 

if anyone wants to complain about my attitude, i'm going to suggest that they simply say "who cares?" and don't.

I think if you focus on the important stuff and not on all the trivial stuff you'd be out caching again. One way to look at it is when you look back on your life would you rather have tons of awesome memories of all the cool places you visited while caching flash through your head or would you rather realize that you found X caches? I'm being facetious because the answer is obvious. Now all you have to do is not get caught up in all those eddy currents that will sidetrack you from all those moments! Edited April 10, 2008 by TrailGators

[+sbell111]

This is one of those rare moments when I agree with TrailGators.

 

Each of us needs to decide what we like about this game. Once we know what we like about it, we need to focus on that thing. The actions of other cache finders really shouldn't affect our enjoyment. It makes no difference if another cacher is competing with me if I'm not in competition with him. I will just go on living my life and enjoying what I enjoy about the game. Changing my behaviour because of another person's competition and ending up having less fun doesn't make any sense. Why would I punish myself just because someone else is competing with me?

[+gof1]

An easy solution for you. Don't look at your numbers and quit obsessing about all of the others who are looking at your name and numbers on the lists. A simple mind over matter deal, if you don't mind it won't matter. It is not like (I hope) people are running up to you and rubbing their numbers in your face and laughing at you or something. I am not a very active cacher as far as numbers goes so if they laughing at people I should be getting the treatment too and so far nobody has rubbed it in my face.

 

Ron

You miss my point. I don't want to see this hobby turned into a competitive sport. Some are urging a stat driven turn to the game, I don't see that as an advantage. I certainly see no reason why I should be included in any such scheme.

 

Look at it this way. Do you ever eat dinner out? Well I want to see how many restaurants you have been to. How many unique restaurants? How many one star? How many 3 star? How often do you eat out? When was the last time? How many days in a row have you eaten out? None of my business is it? If I started collecting that data you would probably get a restraining order filed against me. How is it any different than sites mining similar data about my caching habits?

I understand your point and believe it or not I agree with most of what you are saying, but I also like to have the option of a stats page. I am not competing for numbers but do know a cacher or 2 around here who do, I have had one of them tell me to my face that their whole goal in life was to get their numbers higher than mine. Which numbers I asked? The number of level 5 caches I have? The number of drive by 1/1 caches I have? The number of times we have gone all day on a hike, picked up 1 or 2 caches but, wow, the experience of those. They do not show up in a stats page as anything spectacular but we still talk about a cache (gckbrf) that we hit a few years ago because of the experience of it. Personally I am in this for my own pleasure and the pleasure of my kids, but I will also admit that I like to look at my stats page to "see how I am doing". Just think that since GC is my main source of geocaching and that I am not really that "internet literate" that it would be nice to have all of my needs met by a single site rather than have to run around the internet looking for things that I am not sure exist or what they are called or how to find them with all of the other stuff out there.

 

Like I said before, I am willing to pay somebody and reward their efforts to create something that I like and use.

 

Ron

Then what's the problem? Any reason I can't ask to opt out?

 

It is my preference that GC doesn't go in that direction. If they do I would rather that I have the option to stay out of it. That doesn't mean I want to ignore it, it means i don't want my stats to be available. I see no reason why I should be a part of these stat lists and comparisons. I find it rather annoying that third party sites are listing my "ranking" as it is. It isn't anyones business but mine.

That's the very reason that the status quo is best. If you don't want your stats to be included in INATN, all you have to do is NOT upload your PQ to the site.

 

INATN isn't the only way to be included in stat rankings. This site was pointed out to me.Rankings. I never asked to be included, but there we are ranked against all the rest of you. Links included to our profiles and stat bar. Just goes to show that if the stats are there people will make a contest out of it.

[Mushtang]

if anyone wants to complain about my attitude, i'm going to suggest that they simply say "who cares?" and don't.

I'll be the first one to suggest that you play the way that makes you happy, even if it doesn't make sense to me.

 

From here it seems that if you took the "I don't care what you think" attitude and applied it to cachers that may want to compare themselves to you, instead of to the people in the forums that want you to have more fun, you'd have more fun. But I'm sure there's more to the story that I don't know, and that's why I can't understand.

 

Someone told me once that if your happiness depends on someone else allowing you to be happy, you'll always be miserable and wishing you were happy. Or something like that.

 

It's kept me happy despite what other people are trying to do, say, etc.