It's happened again

[+larryc43230]

Article in The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register

 

The cache in question

 

We do indeed live in paranoid times.

 

--Larry

[+briansnat]

It looks like the hider left the original label on the decon box. If I recall correctly, there is a danger warning about caustic contents on the label.

 

Removing the label and replacing it with a geocache label may or may not have helped, but it's far better than leaving the original warning label on the container. That's just not smart.

 

It doesn't take a high level of paranoia for someone to accidentally discover the box, read the warning on it and think it might be something that should be reported.

[+larryc43230]

It looks like the hider left the original label on the decon box. If I recall correctly, there is a danger warning about caustic contents on the label.

 

Removing the label and replacing it with a geocache label may or may not have helped, but it's far better than leaving the original warning label on the container. That's just not smart.

 

It doesn't take a high level of paranoia for someone to accidentally discover the box, read the warning on it and think it might be something that should be reported.

You have a point. Maybe an unmodified decon container isn't the best choice for an urban cache container.

 

--Larry

[+team moxiepup]

I found the following quote from the article interesting.

 

"...contained two memo pad-sized pieces of white paper with names and codes on it..."

 

Codes? Perhaps they think "TFTC" and "TNLN" have some insidious meaning.

 

Seriously though, I really don't get it when people leave the military marking on caches. It confuses muggles, and does nothing for camo. Just sheer laziness in my humble opinion. In this case, the cache may have still been reported, as neighbors had seen people stashing the container in the guardrail, but it would have made things simpler if the cache were labeled as a geocache. One has to wonder why a guardrail in full view of muggles would be considered a good place to hide a cache in the first place.

[+briansnat]

Seriously though, I really don't get it when people leave the military marking on caches. It confuses muggles, and does nothing for camo

 

I'm dumbfounded by the number of ammo boxes I've found with the military markings still on them - often they are hidden by veteran geocachers who should know better. What are non geocachers expected to think when they find a military looking box with the words "240 cartridges 7.62mm 1 tracer" on the side?

 

Removing the military markings and clearly labeling a container as a geocache is not a foolproof way of

preventing public alarm, but it certainly reduces the possibility.

[+team moxiepup]

Those yellow markings come off so easily too.

 

A paper towel, and "Goof Off" or other similar products will have them off in under a minute.

[+va griz]

It contained two memo pad-sized pieces of white paper with names and codes on it, as well as several small, plastic toys — an Army man, a neon green jack, a purple kaleidoscope, a blue domino, and a white and yellow goat.

 

I don't know why the list of toys struck me as funny, but it did. Just imagine the panic if it was a brown and orange goat!

[+The Leprechauns]

The cache hider is well known to me as someone who takes great care in the preparation of cache containers, often handcrafting customized caches, and who puts forth considerable effort to obtain "adequate permission" for his cache placements, even if the details aren't always stated on the cache page. His caches have shown me many interesting places in the Wheeling area that I would not have otherwise seen. That includes a guardrail cache or two that wound me up and down some of the hills in this area.

 

I'm not familiar with this specific cache, but wished to post to counter any suggestion that this is a "lazy cache hider."

[+NikkiPoooo]

It's actually not a bad article, though I was amused that the writer felt the need to describe the toys in detail. Someone needed a few more words to meet the deadline?

[Mr.Yuck]

It looks like the hider left the original label on the decon box. If I recall correctly, there is a danger warning about caustic contents on the label.

 

Removing the label and replacing it with a geocache label may or may not have helped, but it's far better than leaving the original warning label on the container. That's just not smart.

 

It doesn't take a high level of paranoia for someone to accidentally discover the box, read the warning on it and think it might be something that should be reported.

You have a point. Maybe an unmodified decon container isn't the best choice for an urban cache container.

 

--Larry

 

I have to say Larry, if you thought you were in for a thread full of "we live in paranoid times" replies, I'll bet you're actually in for a thread of "people should remove military markings and not hide caches in full view of peoples houses" responses.

[+KoosKoos]

I agree completely about removing markings...but as I look at the picture with that story, it sure looks like the text is covered by a piece of duct tape.

 

I can't remember the exact text on the top of the container, so perhaps that's what was read. I think this one was more about seeing people stashing something in a guardrail and less about seeing military text on a container.

[+briansnat]

'm not familiar with this specific cache, but wished to post to counter any suggestion that this is a "lazy cache hider."

 

I think that description stemmed from the fact that he left the warning label on the decon box. The warning on decon boxes does sound somewhat ominous and they are quite easy to peel off. Smart geocachers will also sand the warning off of the lid. Who knows if it would have made a difference, but it could have.

[+WebChimp]

We do indeed live in paranoid times.

 

No doubt.

 

The article doesn't say it had the original markings, just that it was "military looking in nature". If that's the only reason they had for thinking it was military, they need to start questioning every homeless person they see wearing an army surplus field jacket.

 

This is obviously a case of overreaction to some exponential factor.

 

Their police chief was quoted as referrring to "the container’s proximity to North Lincoln Avenue, Ohio 7 and a water treatment plant." Gee. Not a water supply, but a water treatment plant. Apparently they think a terrorist is going to assign resources to blowing up sewage treatment, by placing a very small package far, far away in a roadway guardrail. I'm trying to follow that logic, but having little success. Somehow, I doubt a terrorist is going to think "I'm going to ignore their clean water, and blow up the water they've thrown away! Yes, that'll show them who is boss!". (Sigh)

 

Another gem from the local police chief: "The person who placed the container in the guardrail could be charged with inducing a panic". Wow. Inducing a panic. According to the cache listing, the cache has been there for over a year, been found 38 times, had 2 DNFs logged. So this small package, near nothing of any strategic importance (or anything else, for that matter) has had at least 40 visits in over a year, and the law might charge the guy who hid it with the same charge as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater?

 

Rather than inventing a panic situation through being uninformed, maybe the local law should be more aware of their environment. Read a newspaper now and then. Browse the internet. Talk to some local citizens (the non-criminal sort) and see what they do with their spare time.

 

Just to be fair, let's realize that Bridgeport doesn't seem to have much of a crime scene. Anything unusual can be cause for extreme results from the local law. For example, last year the Bridgeport police stopped a guy for having no license plate light. Before the night was over, the police had chased the driver, on foot, from house to house, found him hiding under a blanket, maced him, took him to the hospital to fix the results of the mace job, and then locked him up in jail on a long list of serious, society-threatening charges, such as no license plate light, driving on a suspended license, etc. And, yes, it made the local newspaper.

 

It pretty much sounds to me like the Bridgeport police (and newspaper) need something more important to do with their time.

[+TroutBum1]

Just to correct the location, the cache in question is near Bridgeport, OHIO, not West Virginia. It is actually on Wheeling Island, near Wheeling, WV.

I live in B-port, WV and the cache is 60.5 miles NW of my location.

No big deal, It just caught my eye.

 

Troutbum1

Edited March 18, 2008 by TroutBum1

[+briansnat]

The article doesn't say it had the original markings, just that it was "military looking in nature".

 

Check out the close up photo accompanying the article. The original label is still on the container and I'm willing to bet that the warning is still on the lid.

[+larryc43230]

It looks like the hider left the original label on the decon box. If I recall correctly, there is a danger warning about caustic contents on the label.

 

Removing the label and replacing it with a geocache label may or may not have helped, but it's far better than leaving the original warning label on the container. That's just not smart.

 

It doesn't take a high level of paranoia for someone to accidentally discover the box, read the warning on it and think it might be something that should be reported.

You have a point. Maybe an unmodified decon container isn't the best choice for an urban cache container.

 

--Larry

 

I have to say Larry, if you thought you were in for a thread full of "we live in paranoid times" replies, I'll bet you're actually in for a thread of "people should remove military markings and not hide caches in full view of peoples houses" responses.

No, I didn't post the article looking for any particular response. The last line of my OP was just my own personal comment, and wasn't intended as the principal point of discussion. I'm convinced we do live in overly paranoid times. Given that fact, I think geocachers have an obligation to try not to hide caches that could be construed as some sort of threat, to avoid triggering that paranoia.

 

Anyway, what's worth discussing is the article, not my comment about it.

 

--Larry

[Mr.Yuck]

We do indeed live in paranoid times.

 

 

Another gem from the local police chief: "The person who placed the container in the guardrail could be charged with inducing a panic". Wow. Inducing a panic. According to the cache listing, the cache has been there for over a year, been found 38 times, had 2 DNFs logged. So this small package, near nothing of any strategic importance (or anything else, for that matter) has had at least 40 visits in over a year, and the law might charge the guy who hid it with the same charge as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater?

 

Picture this. You're living in your nice Island neighorhood in Bridgeport, Ohio and/or Wheeling W.V. for decades. All of a sudden, one day, out of nowhere, multiple strangers start showing up in your neighborhood, and suspiciously stash something in a guardrail. Not geocaching's best side to show to the public.

 

Rather than inventing a panic situation through being uninformed, maybe the local law should be more aware of their environment. Read a newspaper now and then. Browse the internet. Talk to some local citizens (the non-criminal sort) and see what they do with their spare time.

 

I'd say an extremely small, statistically insignificant number of them are showing up in people's neighborhoods, and acting suspicious in front of the residents while playing a goofy internet game.

Edited March 18, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+larryc43230]

Just to correct the location, the cache in question is near Bridgeport, OHIO, not West Virginia. It is actually on Wheeling Island, near Wheeling, WV.

I live in B-port, WV and the cache is 60.5 miles NW of my location.

No big deal, It just caught my eye.

 

Troutbum1

Oops, my mistake! And I should have known that, I live in Ohio! I was fooled by the fact that a Wheeling newspaper covered the story.

 

--Larry

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Rather than inventing a panic situation through being uninformed, maybe the local law should be more aware of their environment. Read a newspaper now and then. Browse the internet. Talk to some local citizens (the non-criminal sort) and see what they do with their spare time....

 

... It pretty much sounds to me like the Bridgeport police (and newspaper) need something more important to do with their time.

Try to put yourself in the officer's shoes.

You never heard of geocaching... (believe it or not most folks haven't)

You did hear something on the news last week about some guy with ricin in small containers out in Las Vegas.

You hear about folks dying or wounded almost daily by IEDs and roadside bombs 'over there' and you expect that soon they'll be here.

When you took a coffee break this morning you saw something on TV about a guy in a wheelchair threatening to blow himself up with an oxygen bottle. It wasn't in your area, didn't involve you, but did add one more factoid to the ever-present thought in the back of your mind that tells you "There's just no telling what people are likely to do"

A citizen calls in and says he's seen some fella hiding a container of something on a roadside guardrail.

Your experience has proven that most folks acting hinky are in fact up to something.

Some of those folks are harmless, some of them will shoot you without a second thought.

You just want to do your job and go home intact to the wife and kids.

 

Now... Are you going to walk over there and open that container to see what it is?

[Mr.Yuck]

Just to correct the location, the cache in question is near Bridgeport, OHIO, not West Virginia. It is actually on Wheeling Island, near Wheeling, WV.

I live in B-port, WV and the cache is 60.5 miles NW of my location.

No big deal, It just caught my eye.

 

Troutbum1

Oops, my mistake! And I should have known that, I live in Ohio! I was fooled by the fact that a Wheeling newspaper covered the story.

 

--Larry

 

Now y'all made me edit my last post like 5 times!!! Let me add to the confusion here; The Cache Page says this cache is in West Virginia, and Mapquest State Borders seem to indicate the same.

Edited March 18, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+sbell111]

I found the following quote from the article interesting.

 

"...contained two memo pad-sized pieces of white paper with names and codes on it..."

 

Codes? Perhaps they think "TFTC" and "TNLN" have some insidious meaning.

Most of the codes that I've seen in log books have been numerical. Just the other day, I was signing a logbook and the entry just above mine was something like "Moondog 4/5/08". It makes you wonder what those numbers really mean.

Seriously though, I really don't get it when people leave the military marking on caches. It confuses muggles, and does nothing for camo

I'm dumbfounded by the number of ammo boxes I've found with the military markings still on them - often they are hidden by veteran geocachers who should know better. What are non geocachers expected to think when they find a military looking box with the words "240 cartridges 7.62mm 1 tracer" on the side?

I'm thinking that most humans won't assume that they've just found a box full of ammo.

[+sbell111]

... Another gem from the local police chief: "The person who placed the container in the guardrail could be charged with inducing a panic". ...

After reading the article, I can't imagine that they would persue that charge. After all, there apparently was no panic and there is no case to be made that anyone intended to cause one.

[+NikkiPoooo]

I'm thinking that most humans won't assume that they've just found a box full of ammo.

 

Why would you think that? Before I knew that ammo boxes and decon containers were common geocache containers if I found a box that said it contained ammunition or toxic substances I'd assume that's what was in it.

[ktroxell72]

Here is a TV story of the report of the suspicous package. I agree with law enforcements response and possible charges against the cacher. I base this on the fact that the cache left behind had the words caution, poisonous and hazardous writting on it.

http://www.wtov9.com/news/15625404/detail.html

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

Unfortunately this is a sign of the times we live in. As cachers - of course we know that containers are hidden and that when we find the ammo box we have been directed to, there isn't ammo inside. But we are talking about people who are not familiar with the game. Perhaps your neighbor. Someone out walking their dog sees a strange person searching and looking around a guardrail. Watching him more, this person sees him take something off the guardrail, fiddle with it, and return it to the guardrail. Its suspicious behavior.

 

It doesn't have to be a terrorist. Were the gunmen at all the school shootings terrorists? No - just a person who decided to harm other people.

 

I'm a cacher and I enjoy the game but I also can see how someone may panic if they found some of these containers out there. Ammo boxes and decon containers may be nice, but I think the normal person would say "if I find an ammo box - there is more than likely ammo inside of it." If this person had selected a similar container only clear, then people could see what is inside and know it was not a threat.

 

And yeah... that reporter was definitely trying to make up word count.... describing the goat? wow.

 

EDIT: I watched the video above and it was near 3 critical areas and was HIGH traffic. All the reporting muggle saw was a guy dropping a green box off. Of course that would be viewed as a threat especially being near a child's playground. But we have to think, even if we use a clear container that is cammo'd up well, that doesn't mean it can't still scare people. Disgruntled people don't always look for military containers to blow others up, but if we can avoid more notorious types of containers (military in nature with military markings) then perhaps it'll be less likely to be misleading to the general public.

 

AND - I still think its funny when they return to the dates and TNLN's as "code" LOL

Edited March 18, 2008 by Carbon_n_kids

[+Renegade Knight]

Those yellow markings come off so easily too.

 

A paper towel, and "Goof Off" or other similar products will have them off in under a minute.

Normally I have painted over the markings, but it's only recently that I learned about this method. Nice.

[+nekom]

It contained two memo pad-sized pieces of white paper with names and codes on it, as well as several small, plastic toys — an Army man, a neon green jack, a purple kaleidoscope, a blue domino, and a white and yellow goat.

 

ZOMG PANIC!!!1

[+sbell111]

... I'm a cacher and I enjoy the game but I also can see how someone may panic if they found some of these containers out there. Ammo boxes and decon containers may be nice, but I think the normal person would say "if I find an ammo box - there is more than likely ammo inside of it." If this person had selected a similar container only clear, then people could see what is inside and know it was not a threat. ...

Using the same logic, one wonders why tupperware-style caches have resulted in bomb-squad calls. After all, if you find one of those, you would expect it to have a sandwich inside.

[+Renegade Knight]

Here is a TV story of the report of the suspicous package. I agree with law enforcements response and possible charges against the cacher. I base this on the fact that the cache left behind had the words caution, poisonous and hazardous writting on it.

http://www.wtov9.com/news/15625404/detail.html

 

Why would you ever agree that something harmless should result in arrest for a person trying to enjoy their life? Since I make a point to track all the stupid things blown up or which generate a "panic" that are harmless. I've come too a few conclusions.

 

The problem is, was, and remains those people who intend real harm. We can and should go about our lives minimizing the impact that those real problems cause us all. Meaning we should still life today as before. The price of living today as before, and that there are real people trying to do harm is the false alarm. There are things we can pay attention to to minimize false alarms, but giving up viable fun family activities and only using "false alarm proof" items in our life (you can't do this by the way) are not among them.

 

When you stand in line to ban activities that generate a false alarms and then criminalize those activities you are creating a world where the mere threat of harm is enough to generate chaos and disruption. In other words you are letting the bad guys win. You are also taking something that used to be free and legal and making it illegal for the sake of what? Putting both the bomb makers and the innocent in jail? By this logic the simple fact that there is terrorism means that for every bomber you catch you will clog up your jails with folks who are other wise innocent and who would not be there at all but for terrorism to begin with.

 

The price is too high for what you want and I catagoricly reject it.

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

... I'm a cacher and I enjoy the game but I also can see how someone may panic if they found some of these containers out there. Ammo boxes and decon containers may be nice, but I think the normal person would say "if I find an ammo box - there is more than likely ammo inside of it." If this person had selected a similar container only clear, then people could see what is inside and know it was not a threat. ...

Using the same logic, one wonders why tupperware-style caches have resulted in bomb-squad calls. After all, if you find one of those, you would expect it to have a sandwich inside.

 

Nice try but any "normal" person would know that tupperware can be used for anything that'll fit inside. There is no "protocol for what you can put inside when you but your tupperware new and EMPTY." Ammo boxes are made to hold ammo. No such thing as an "ammo box party" where you can buy new ammo boxes empty for storage.

 

If you do not see the difference between an opaque container with "warning" stamped in the lid versus a tupperware container wrapped in tape - I pity you. Yes, some of these tupperware hides can stir a panic but your chances greatly decrease from use of ammo box to tupperware.

 

Fact is - bombs can go in anything so .... you propose we stop caching all together or just do things to try to prevent confusion in the future? I choose the latter, tyvm. False alarms will always happen but we don't have to try our hardest to increase that chance. We should be doing the opposite.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Carbon_n_kids

[+CWFI34]

Article in The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register

 

The cache in question

 

We do indeed live in paranoid times.

 

--Larry

 

I believe the cache in question is actually GC195FQ.

 

I actually have archived several caches today, because of this event. I have also received alerts others are doing so as well.

Edited March 18, 2008 by CWFI34

[+Renegade Knight]

Nice try but any "normal" person would know that tupperware can be used for anything that'll fit inside. There is no "protocol for what you can put inside when you but your tupperware new and EMPTY." Ammo boxes are made to hold ammo. No such thing as an "ammo box party" where you can buy new ammo boxes empty for storage.

It's called a cache event.

If you do not see the difference between an opaque container with "warning" stamped in the lid versus a tupperware container wrapped in tape - I pity you. Yes, some of these tupperware hides can stir a panic but your chances greatly decrease from use of ammo box to tupperware.

If you do not understand the concept that it's the behavior of the person around the container that is what people are supposed to phone in on and not the container itself I don't pitty you. You just need to learn a bit more about what people are taught to report and what they report when they are not taught.

 

Fact is - bombs can go in anything so .... you propose we stop caching all together or just do things to try to prevent confusion in the future? I choose the latter, tyvm. False alarms will always happen but we don't have to try our hardest to increase that chance. We should be doing the opposite.

We agree on the big picture here but not the action. Best action? Hide the container so a muggle won't happen on it. No accidental find. No problem regardless of the container. All other options are a far distant second. Though removing the markings and such is sound. As for clear. Once you paint it cammo so it's not found on accident it's a moot point. Remember the best action from above?

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm thinking that most humans won't assume that they've just found a box full of ammo.

 

Why would you think that? Before I knew that ammo boxes and decon containers were common geocache containers if I found a box that said it contained ammunition or toxic substances I'd assume that's what was in it.

 

I'd make the same assumption if i were on a military base or stationed in Iraq in a hot zone. Here, it's all military surplus. I'd assume that unless there were some reason to believe otherwise. I have seen ammo cans since I was a kid. They have always been containers with cool military markings on them.

[+Thrak]

Sheesh........ Paranoia.

 

However, I always paint ammo cans and I remove the labels from decon containers and use the wire wheel on my grinder to remove the warning from the top as well. Heck, I even paint the decon containers sometimes. It only makes sense.....

[+larryc43230]

I believe the cache in question is actually GC195FQ.

I'm guilty of assuming (and I should know better). I found a cache in the right area that had been disabled yesterday. Looks as if quite a few caches have now been disabled because of this incident.

 

--Larry

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

It's called a cache event.

Still a used item being peddled for a purpose not originally intended.

 

If you do not understand the concept that it's the behavior of the person around the container that is what people are supposed to phone in on and not the container itself I don't pitty you. You just need to learn a bit more about what people are taught to report and what they report when they are not taught.

I agree the behavior of the finder is important but containers can be found accidentally as well. In todays world, people will report ANYTHING that isn't natural. A decon container in a guadrail next to a busy road, playground, and water treatment plant is not natural.

 

We agree on the big picture here but not the action. Best action? Hide the container so a muggle won't happen on it. No accidental find. No problem regardless of the container. All other options are a far distant second. Though removing the markings and such is sound. As for clear. Once you paint it cammo so it's not found on accident it's a moot point. Remember the best action from above?

I was surprised to see via the news clip how busy this area was. Oh, and when you "cammo" a clear container, the point is to leave some of it open so a person can look inside and see paper and trinkets versus wires and who knows what else (I'm not a bomb making expert). Every container I consider is clear and I do not cammo it fully. Cachers have to remember that not everyone that may find your cache is a cacher.

 

What is sad is in another thread, as this one goes on, is another fella who wants to hide a padlock cache and is being told "hey, slap it on an ammo can and hide that".... not only is he being told to use an ammo can, but make it look realllly suspicious by putting the padlock on it.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Carbon_n_kids

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

I believe the cache in question is actually GC195FQ.

I'm guilty of assuming (and I should know better). I found a cache in the right area that had been disabled yesterday. Looks as if quite a few caches have now been disabled because of this incident.

 

--Larry

 

Truly a shame But I suppose until the threat of being charged with insighting panic is addressed, people with similar caches are going to remove them. Are they only cache's in that area or have you noticed people in other areas pulling theirs?

[+larryc43230]

Truly a shame But I suppose until the threat of being charged with insighting panic is addressed, people with similar caches are going to remove them. Are they only cache's in that area or have you noticed people in other areas pulling theirs?

I have e-mail alerts set up for any notifications regarding caches within 60 miles of my home near Columbus, Ohio. This area doesn't extend to the West Virginia panhandle, where the incident took place. I haven't been notified of any caches in my 60-mile-radius area being disabled due to this event, at least not so far.

 

Are caches being pulled in any other areas? I would hope that neither law enforcement nor cache owners would panic in these circumstances.

 

--Larry

[+quadcity007]

A good guidline is simply to place caches in areas where a lot of muggles are not commonly present / have a view from their bedroom window. In cases where the cache is located near a busy area, perhaps it would be a good idea to notify the local police of:

1. The game/sport/hobby commonly referred to as geocaching
   
2. The location of the cache
   
3. The original contents of the cache
   

Is it not the case that when you hide a cache you need to ensure the landowner is ok with it? If so, this means more work on the part of the person hiding the cache. The benefits is it will help the "finder" to not have the local SWAT team called in. Hopefully, if you let the police know about a cache - and they allow it - then when a person makes a call, the police can tell the caller that they are aware of the cache.

[+D@nim@l]

Article in The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register

 

The cache in question

 

We do indeed live in paranoid times.

 

--Larry

 

I believe the cache in question is actually GC195FQ.

 

I actually have archived several caches today, because of this event. I have also received alerts others are doing so as well.

 

If that is the cache in question, then it is one in series of 100s spewed across the Wheeling area recently. If it does result in lame caches being archived, then so be it. The only ones in whom the "panic will be incited" are the ones who didn't get to finish the series.\

 

Edit to add this dust up over geocaching near Wheeling

 

when a mayor banned geocaching.

Edited March 18, 2008 by D@nim@l

[+NikkiPoooo]

I'd make the same assumption if i were on a military base or stationed in Iraq in a hot zone. Here, it's all military surplus. I'd assume that unless there were some reason to believe otherwise. I have seen ammo cans since I was a kid. They have always been containers with cool military markings on them.

 

In scouts I was taught to always cover up any markings on surplus stuff lest my stuff be mistaken for being military stuff. That was back in the 80s too, before everything was suspected of being a bomb. A container with cool military markings on it is harmless as long as it's got a clearly disclosed purpose. A random person walking through a public woods sees a box marked ammo on the ground, mostly covered in leaves and stuff and at least 2 out of 10 are going to wonder what the heck it's doing there, and if it really has ammo in it. The random hiker guy will probably just look in it to make sure it's nothing dangerous, but the mother of three children playing in the woods might be more cautious.

[+WebChimp]

 

You did hear something on the news last week about some guy with ricin in small containers out in Las Vegas.

You hear about folks dying or wounded almost daily by IEDs and roadside bombs 'over there' and you expect that soon they'll be here.

 

Comparing "over there" to here isn't a reasonable comparison.

 

We're burying Taylor McDavid tomorrow, a hometown guy, one of five killed after they got out of their Humvee for a foot patrol last week and an IED was remotely detonated.

 

Wasn't in a guardrail (IEDs never are), it was buried in the road bed.

 

It hadn't been there for over a year, with the location published on the internet.

 

It wasn't in a decon container, that's too small for the work of an IED.

 

It hadn't been visited 40+ times, opened, closed, replaced, 40+ times.

 

No comparison.

 

This is just a case of an overly suspicious citizen and an uninformed police dept.

 

Now, had it been a package buried in the road last night, the dirt or pavement still disturbed, in the traffic flow of the local military units or near a common gathering place of local officials, or next to where the President would be visiting in the next day or so, that would be a different matter. But, that's not what this was.

 

This all amounts to much ado about nothing.

[+sbell111]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache finders to be a little bit more cautious about who sees them making the find. Lately, there have been too many people posting things like "I hate those kinds of caches so I don't care if someone sees me making the find". So Mrs. Kravitz sees the cacher replacing the cache and another thread like this one is born.

[+briansnat]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache finders to be a little bit more cautious about who sees them making the find. Lately, there have been too many people posting things like "I hate those kinds of caches so I don't care if someone sees me making the find". So Mrs. Kravitz sees the cacher replacing the cache and another thread like this one is born.

 

If you place a cache in a high traffic area, searchers are going to draw attention whether they are playing spy, or they walk right up to the cache. The latter will probably draw slightly less attention.

 

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Edited March 18, 2008 by briansnat

[+Renegade Knight]

...A container with cool military markings on it is harmless as long as it's got a clearly disclosed purpose...

 

My cache located in the woods and painted green was reported as a drug stash. It wasn't an ammo can. People will percieve what they percieve. If the person reporting is thinking drug stash that's what they report. Removing the markings is a good thing. It's no where near as important as a good hide.

 

A cache is always harmless. An ammo can with or without markings is harmless. Harm does not magicly happen due to the markings. The real issue is the responce and how to either minimize it or make it so it doesnt' happen (but at the same time making sure that it does happen for real and actual bombs and other harmful things).

[+ThePetersTrio]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

 

Best advice so far.

[+Renegade Knight]

A good guidline is simply to place caches in areas where a lot of muggles are not commonly present / have a view from their bedroom window....

 

Having police in your area who are also cachers is far better and simpler than trying to keep the police informed of the ever changing geocaching landscape. Others have tried, most haven't gotten far, but by far the best result is when Johnny Law is also Johnny Cacher on the weekends. That I have seen work. It doesn't hurt that for some reason LEO's like caching as much or more than most occupations.

 

You are dead on when it comes to keeping caches out of the public eye.

 

The permission issue has proven to be rather moot overall. Caches with permission as good as any of the Mother May I crowd could ever ask for has not saved a cache. There are too many variables and too many issues to where when something is reported protocal takes over. On one cache the last finder came back to the cache after the responce, knew it was the cache and offered to show the responding team. No go. They used a water cannon anyway. Permission may come into play after the fact. However consider nobody has permission to "forget their packages " at the airport. The loud speakers drone on and on about unattended packages. People forget anyway. Life somehow manages to go on.

[+sbell111]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache finders to be a little bit more cautious about who sees them making the find. Lately, there have been too many people posting things like "I hate those kinds of caches so I don't care if someone sees me making the find". So Mrs. Kravitz sees the cacher replacing the cache and another thread like this one is born.

If you place a cache in a high traffic area, searchers are going to draw attention whether they are playing spy, or they walk right up to the cache. The latter will probably draw slightly less attention.

I don't buy into that theory. I'm pretty certain that my actions aren't more noticable when I try to avoid being seen. I do know that if I don't try to avoid being spotted and just walk up and remove and replace the cache regardless of the nearby muggles that I am almost guaranteeing being spotted. Those who see me may or may not take note of my actions, but if I avoid being seen I am guaranteeing that no one will take note of my activity.

 

I guess that I'm confused because you seem to sometimes believe that stealth is important, but sometimes not. From some of your posts, one would believe that you think it's important for caches that you like, but not for caches that you don't.

There are all kinds of caches ranging from a tiny micro in mid town Manhattan to a large cache in the middle of the wilderness. Your level of "stealth" would depend on the cache you choose to hunt. If you are looking for a cache in a high traffic area, you should try to be careful. If you are looking for a cache in the woods or off the beaten path, you don't have to worry as much about stealth.

I usually avoid these caches. I'm not in this to play a cloak and dagger game. When I do encounter one I just walk up, grab it, sign the log and put it back. I don't care who is looking. If the owner insists on putting the cache where searchers will be seen, that's his choice and I'm not going to agonize over whether I'll be discovered.

Edited March 19, 2008 by sbell111

[+NikkiPoooo]

Comparing "over there" to here isn't a reasonable comparison.

 

We're burying Taylor McDavid tomorrow, a hometown guy, one of five killed after they got out of their Humvee for a foot patrol last week and an IED was remotely detonated.

 

Wasn't in a guardrail (IEDs never are), it was buried in the road bed.

 

It hadn't been there for over a year, with the location published on the internet.

 

It wasn't in a decon container, that's too small for the work of an IED.

 

It hadn't been visited 40+ times, opened, closed, replaced, 40+ times.

 

No comparison.

 

This is just a case of an overly suspicious citizen and an uninformed police dept.

 

Now, had it been a package buried in the road last night, the dirt or pavement still disturbed, in the traffic flow of the local military units or near a common gathering place of local officials, or next to where the President would be visiting in the next day or so, that would be a different matter. But, that's not what this was.

 

This all amounts to much ado about nothing.

 

An IED could very well be hidden in or on a guardrail... they may not do it that way in Iraq but it doesn't take any imagination at all to see one being placed on a guardrail anywhere, especially since one of the usual objectives of IEDs is to spew shrapnel in order to cause the most widespread injury.

 

An IED could possibly be contained in a decon container. Anything homemade that blows up is an IED... even a molotov cocktail is considered an IED.

 

Without going on the internet and looking at geocaching.com and knowing the exact coordinates how could a police officer who gets a report of a suspicious package know that that particular package has been visited 40+ times and that it had been there for over a year? If a package turns out to be a bomb that kills a group of school children crossing the bridge and causes a massive sewage leak at the nearby treatment facility, do you think the public is going to accept "Well, we didn't want to alarm anyone so we decided to look on the internet to see if it was a game. Turns out it wasn't, but we didn't know that in time."

[+sbell111]

Perhaps the real solution is for cache hiders to use a little sense and hide caches where searchers are not likely to be observed, and label them clearly as geocaches.

Best advice so far.

Except that a good percentage of caches are hidden in more urban locations. Similarly, a good percentage of cachers enjoy finding these caches. Therefore, we need 'solutions' that do not put an end to a large percentage of caches and caching. Of course, that is only if one believes that any 'solution' is needed. Personally, I'm not sure if it has been shown that there is a problem that needs to be solved.