Garmin Topo 2008 maps are 300-500 ft off

[+ndimmick]

I've owned a Vista HCx and Topo 2008 for about 6 months. My maps are 300-500 ft off too the west consistently. This is not just a problem with the display on the unit. When I record a track and waypoints on my unit and view them in Mapsource, they show up in the right spots through City Navigator and Google Earth, but they are very off in Topo 2008. I've conducted this experiment in MI, WI, and OH. Everything is consistently off to the west of reality, but the distance of the error varies from about 300 to 500 feet.

 

I've had this problem the whole time and Garmin has been unable to do anything about it. Any suggestions?

[+myotis]

I've owned a Vista HCx and Topo 2008 for about 6 months. My maps are 300-500 ft off too the west consistently. This is not just a problem with the display on the unit. When I record a track and waypoints on my unit and view them in Mapsource, they show up in the right spots through City Navigator and Google Earth, but they are very off in Topo 2008. I've conducted this experiment in MI, WI, and OH. Everything is consistently off to the west of reality, but the distance of the error varies from about 300 to 500 feet.

 

I've had this problem the whole time and Garmin has been unable to do anything about it. Any suggestions?

 

Ask for them to exchange it

[ZippZ]

I've owned a Vista HCx and Topo 2008 for about 6 months. My maps are 300-500 ft off too the west consistently. This is not just a problem with the display on the unit. When I record a track and waypoints on my unit and view them in Mapsource, they show up in the right spots through City Navigator and Google Earth, but they are very off in Topo 2008. I've conducted this experiment in MI, WI, and OH. Everything is consistently off to the west of reality, but the distance of the error varies from about 300 to 500 feet.

 

I've had this problem the whole time and Garmin has been unable to do anything about it. Any suggestions?

 

Could it be the map grid(position format)/datum not matching Topo 2008 and the GPS? Might not be it since City Navigator is correct. For TOPO, go to your preferences/position. For the Vista go to Setup/Units.

[yogazoo]

I know that Garmin Topo 2008 roads are based on the Tiger 2000 data which is off considerablly depending on location. I conducted an experiment where I exported a section of Montana's Tiger 2000 roads from ArcGis as a KML file. Importing the KML into Google Earth, I could see exactly what I noticed on the ground. The roads are off where I notice them being off and on where I noticed them being ok. Not every road is off but alot of them are. The amount varies but yes I have seen them as far as almost 200 meters in isolated cases. Looking at the Tiger 2000 road data superimposed over Goggle Earth is a real eye opener. In some case there are roads on Tiger that aren't visible at all on GE.

 

You can replicate this experiment if you have ArcGIS and Google Earth. Tiger 2000 road data is freely available from most states geospatial libraries or you can download it from NED.

 

This doesn't seem to be a problem with Garmins georeferencing but rather with the data they used to create the roads. Most everything else is in the right place, streams, topo lines, points of interest etc. Keep in mind that the roads aren't off by a set amount. Some roads are off and some roads are on so you couldn't simply adjust the georeferencing to make it all better.

 

One more thing to note is that some blocks in town seem to be irreglar polygons or not exactly square. This is indigenous to the Tiger data and not garmins compression methods or node generalization.

 

Tiger 2000 data is usable and contains some information that doesn't show up on the newer transportation geodatabases. It is accuracte enough for most purposes. The inaccuracy bothers me too sometimes so I just zoom out a little to where I can't really notice how off some roads are. I think Garmin, for the sake of saving some $$, decided to use freely available data for its TOPO series to cut their costs and to allow for it to be an "unlocked" product.

 

Personally, I use the topo maps for being out of doors and mostly away from roads so the amount of data and accuracy is enough for me. Actually, as I stated before, there are many more forest roads in the Tiger Data compared to the newer road data. If you had the old TOPO US software you would have really been frustrated, the road data in that set of software was horrible and didn't even have road names!

 

In summary, it's annoying but if you want some highly accurate road data purchase the city nav series.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

Edited March 14, 2008 by yogazoo

[+victorymike]

I just hiked 4 miles thru Brighton State Recreation Area yesterday and my Colorado 400t was perfect with the terrain features. For those not in the know BSRA is about 15 minutes South of Hartland where ndimmick hails from. I was using the preloaded topo maps which I am told are mostly Topo 2008.

 

I still have the tracks from my hike.

Edited March 14, 2008 by victorymike

[Glenn W]

I too have noticed that the Topo 2008 roads are very poorly located in my area. Off-road features seem accurate though.

[yogazoo]

If anyone out there wants me to e-mail them a small KML sample of the Tiger2000 data to check out in Google Earth just PM me, I'll send one. You can see the inaccuracies plain as day.

[+GOT GPS?]

Another problem of Topo 2008, I found was that the mountain peeks all seem lower on the map, than in real life. I originally saw somebody post about this problem, shortly after Topo 2008 came on the market.

[+hogrod]

I live in Wisconsin and have only ever noticed the roads are off a little bit(less than 100ft). Granted the city navigator maps are spot on in comparison but I've never seen the roads off by as much as 300ft.

 

The one thing I have noticed is the topo data is inconsistent through out the mapset, some areas have better detail than others. The county I live in uses 10ft contour levels, yet most of the state is using 25ft contours. Looking at western states some use 50ft contours, yet others are 150ft contours.

You can see a great example of this detail level change near here: N43 00.000 W89 43.000, a side note I have never found another area yet with 10ft contours. guess I'm lucky this is my home area.

[oxothuk]

I also noticed that TOPO 2008 roads were a couple hundred meters off in my neighborhood. I could easily believe the error was due to a mismatch between NAD27 and NAD83 at some point in the process.

 

But as others have noted, only some of the road locations are in error. The main roads outside my subdivision are spot-on, for instance.

[+ndimmick]

 

Could it be the map grid(position format)/datum not matching Topo 2008 and the GPS? Might not be it since City Navigator is correct. For TOPO, go to your preferences/position. For the Vista go to Setup/Units.

 

ZippZ, thanks for the idea. I checked and both are set to WGS 84.

[yogazoo]

ndimmick,

 

I need your personal e-mail to attach the KML file! PM me with it.

Edited March 17, 2008 by yogazoo

[+ndimmick]

I know that Garmin Topo 2008 roads are based on the Tiger 2000 data which is off considerablly depending on location. I conducted an experiment where I exported a section of Montana's Tiger 2000 roads from ArcGis as a KML file. Importing the KML into Google Earth, I could see exactly what I noticed on the ground. The roads are off where I notice them being off and on where I noticed them being ok. Not every road is off but alot of them are. The amount varies but yes I have seen them as far as almost 200 meters in isolated cases. Looking at the Tiger 2000 road data superimposed over Goggle Earth is a real eye opener. In some case there are roads on Tiger that aren't visible at all on GE.

 

You can replicate this experiment if you have ArcGIS and Google Earth. Tiger 2000 road data is freely available from most states geospatial libraries or you can download it from NED.

 

This doesn't seem to be a problem with Garmins georeferencing but rather with the data they used to create the roads. Most everything else is in the right place, streams, topo lines, points of interest etc. Keep in mind that the roads aren't off by a set amount. Some roads are off and some roads are on so you couldn't simply adjust the georeferencing to make it all better.

 

One more thing to note is that some blocks in town seem to be irreglar polygons or not exactly square. This is indigenous to the Tiger data and not garmins compression methods or node generalization.

 

Tiger 2000 data is usable and contains some information that doesn't show up on the newer transportation geodatabases. It is accuracte enough for most purposes. The inaccuracy bothers me too sometimes so I just zoom out a little to where I can't really notice how off some roads are. I think Garmin, for the sake of saving some $$, decided to use freely available data for its TOPO series to cut their costs and to allow for it to be an "unlocked" product.

 

Personally, I use the topo maps for being out of doors and mostly away from roads so the amount of data and accuracy is enough for me. Actually, as I stated before, there are many more forest roads in the Tiger Data compared to the newer road data. If you had the old TOPO US software you would have really been frustrated, the road data in that set of software was horrible and didn't even have road names!

 

In summary, it's annoying but if you want some highly accurate road data purchase the city nav series.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

 

Yogazoo,

I recieved your KML file and viewed it in Google Earth. I can verify that the roads in this experiment are off in exactly the same way that the roads in my Topo 2008 are off. I own City Navigator for on-road usage. My concern is that maybe I can't trust the other aspects of the topo maps.

 

Thank you for your help. You certainly have a lot of knowledge on this subject. Do you work in the mapping field? Is ArcGIS something that can be downloaded for free?

 

I sure wish Garmin would respond to my support requests and have the integrity to admit this problem.

[+ndimmick]

I just hiked 4 miles thru Brighton State Recreation Area yesterday and my Colorado 400t was perfect with the terrain features. For those not in the know BSRA is about 15 minutes South of Hartland where ndimmick hails from. I was using the preloaded topo maps which I am told are mostly Topo 2008.

 

I still have the tracks from my hike.

 

Victory Mike, Thanks for the reply. It's great to get some local feedback. Would you mind sending me the track from your hike? You say the geologic data seemed to be accurate. Did you find the road data to be off? I'm really not very concerned that the roads are off. I was just using them as an easy point of reference. My concern is that perhaps the geologic features can not be trusted. That's not a big deal around here, but up in the mountains in a snow storm, an error could make a big difference. I'll PM you my email for the track.

[Baumer]

The information in the topo maps isn't complete enough to keep you from falling to your death any way folks.

[yogazoo]

I know that Garmin Topo 2008 roads are based on the Tiger 2000 data which is off considerablly depending on location. I conducted an experiment where I exported a section of Montana's Tiger 2000 roads from ArcGis as a KML file. Importing the KML into Google Earth, I could see exactly what I noticed on the ground. The roads are off where I notice them being off and on where I noticed them being ok. Not every road is off but alot of them are. The amount varies but yes I have seen them as far as almost 200 meters in isolated cases. Looking at the Tiger 2000 road data superimposed over Goggle Earth is a real eye opener. In some case there are roads on Tiger that aren't visible at all on GE.

 

You can replicate this experiment if you have ArcGIS and Google Earth. Tiger 2000 road data is freely available from most states geospatial libraries or you can download it from NED.

 

This doesn't seem to be a problem with Garmins georeferencing but rather with the data they used to create the roads. Most everything else is in the right place, streams, topo lines, points of interest etc. Keep in mind that the roads aren't off by a set amount. Some roads are off and some roads are on so you couldn't simply adjust the georeferencing to make it all better.

 

One more thing to note is that some blocks in town seem to be irreglar polygons or not exactly square. This is indigenous to the Tiger data and not garmins compression methods or node generalization.

 

Tiger 2000 data is usable and contains some information that doesn't show up on the newer transportation geodatabases. It is accuracte enough for most purposes. The inaccuracy bothers me too sometimes so I just zoom out a little to where I can't really notice how off some roads are. I think Garmin, for the sake of saving some $$, decided to use freely available data for its TOPO series to cut their costs and to allow for it to be an "unlocked" product.

 

Personally, I use the topo maps for being out of doors and mostly away from roads so the amount of data and accuracy is enough for me. Actually, as I stated before, there are many more forest roads in the Tiger Data compared to the newer road data. If you had the old TOPO US software you would have really been frustrated, the road data in that set of software was horrible and didn't even have road names!

 

In summary, it's annoying but if you want some highly accurate road data purchase the city nav series.

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

 

Yogazoo,

I recieved your KML file and viewed it in Google Earth. I can verify that the roads in this experiment are off in exactly the same way that the roads in my Topo 2008 are off. I own City Navigator for on-road usage. My concern is that maybe I can't trust the other aspects of the topo maps.

 

Thank you for your help. You certainly have a lot of knowledge on this subject. Do you work in the mapping field? Is ArcGIS something that can be downloaded for free?

 

I sure wish Garmin would respond to my support requests and have the integrity to admit this problem.

 

ndimmick,

 

I do work with ArcGIS everyday and I am fortunate to live in Montana where we have a ton of geospatial data for free download off of our NRIS site. IMO It is a model for other states to follow as far as organization and compilation of data ( see for yourself at: http://nris.state.mt.us/gis/gisdatalib/gisDataList.aspx ).

 

That said, you cannot download ArcGIS for free, actually a license costs close to a thousand dollars. BUT there is a program to view all the geospatial data including Raster data for FREE. It's called MapWindow. Google MapWindow and you'll be able to create maps and perform various data analysis and editing that is very advanced for a FREE program (even save shapefiles to a KML for Google Earth).

 

As far as the accuracy of geographic data; It's only as accurate as the data they found to use. The waypoints such as summits, valleys, springs, etc come from the GNIS data set found on the web. Water features come from the NHD (National Hydrography Dataset. And not their Hi-Res stuff either). Most of what Garmin uses as data for their Topo series of maps is free data that is available online these days. Garmin probably didn't do many quality control checks on these free, publically published data sets. You could probably call and write Garmin until your blue in the face with little action on their part. Unless there is a critical and glaring error regarding some of the data they probably don't have the manpower to go in correcting smaller errors.

 

I know it can be frustrating sometimes when our map data isn't as accurate as we would like. Just look at these maps as a guide that is mostly accurate. Minus the roads, I have found the other geographic points and data to be quite accurate.

[+hogrod]

If you had the old TOPO US software you would have really been frustrated, the road data in that set of software was horrible and didn't even have road names!

 

In summary, it's annoying but if you want some highly accurate road data purchase the city nav series.

 

I totally agree. I didn't buy the topo 2008 maps for its roads, but it is so much better than the old topo 3.02 when it comes to roads. I use my topo 2008 while hiking but use city navigator when on the road for more accurate street maps without all the topo clutter.

[+ndimmick]

I received an email response from Garmin today. They assure me that the topo data is accurate even when the street data (seen as a sort of bonus in their eyes and not vital to the topo data) is off. Here's a quote from the email...

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

 

I am happy to help you with this. The Topo 2008 software was improved

by adding the street detail as an additional reference, however this is

still a Topo map. In some areas the street detail that is on the Topo

mapping will be offset, however the Topo detail is correct. I apologize

for the confusion.

 

With Best Regards,

 

Chris L.

Product Support Specialist

2nd Shift Outdoor/Fitness Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-397-8282 (fax) Att: Chris L.

www.garmin.com[/i]

[Tomas4x4]

I received an email response from Garmin today. They assure me that the topo data is accurate even when the street data (seen as a sort of bonus in their eyes and not vital to the topo data) is off. Here's a quote from the email...

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

 

I am happy to help you with this. The Topo 2008 software was improved

by adding the street detail as an additional reference, however this is

still a Topo map. In some areas the street detail that is on the Topo

mapping will be offset, however the Topo detail is correct. I apologize

for the confusion.

 

With Best Regards,

 

Chris L.

Product Support Specialist

2nd Shift Outdoor/Fitness Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-397-8282 (fax) Att: Chris L.

www.garmin.com[/i]

What a crappy response . Since when roads stopped being topographic information?! I can understand that topographic map does not contain information about shops, gas stations and such, I can even swallow that it is not routable but mis-located roads is just not right. In my area (Hillsboro, Oregon), the offset is so bad that I cannot really use the map to navigate the neighbourhoods when on bike trip.

 

The unit is otherwise very precise because when I download the GPX file and display the trail using Google visualizer, it is almost perfect match.

 

Everything else than acknowledging the problem and promising free update in future is rather lame. There is no confusion, the roads are just misplaced.

 

I agree with other people that Topo US 2008 is more complete than 3.02 version (road info must have been some 20 years old in there), but many details are still lacking. I have had chance to use Topo Canada for a year and it was much better, there were some cases where the newer roads were missing (my guess is that anything built in last 10 years was not there) but it was routable!

 

When you look at what enthusiasts can do (IndyJpr's maps), it is sad. Heck, I would be willing to pay for regular updates if the price was reasonable.

[yogazoo]

 

When you look at what enthusiasts can do (IndyJpr's maps), it is sad. Heck, I would be willing to pay for regular updates if the price was reasonable.

 

I hear you on the road accuracy however I have a confession. I'm pretty sure the road data that IndyJpr uses is the Tiger2000 data because 1) its freely and easily available 2) it has road names and classes already labled for ease of integration. Yeah they might not be spot on but they do include some roads that you can't find on the newer city nav (mostly dirt and forest roads). The Tiger2000 data even has walking trails and the newer road databases that I've seen at least for Montana don't have that. Until we can get a road database with clearly labeled road classes and street names WITH trail data and forest roads, the Tiger2000 stuff is sadly the best available data.

 

Well, at least we know the Topo part is acurate enough.

[+IndyJpr]

I hear you on the road accuracy however I have a confession. I'm pretty sure the road data that IndyJpr uses is the Tiger2000 data because 1) its freely and easily available 2) it has road names and classes already labled for ease of integration.

That's definitely true in some cases. I try to find the best road data available which becomes very subjective: do you use a road layer that is very accurate but has no street names or do you use another layer that is not very accurate but has street names, etc.

 

For Colorado I used data from CDOT which (from memory) didn't seem based on the Tiger data, Wyoming was Tiger since I couldn't find any alternatives, Utah was a Tiger based set that appeared to have been cleaned-up by the state.

[Glenn W]

When I get upset that the Topo 2008 road data are not accurate, I remind myself that if Garmin spent the money for good data, the software would be at least twice the cost. However, in the spirt of fair business practices, Garmin needs to put a disclaimer on the box that the street data are not accurate.

[+brew15]

I emailed them about a year ago about my 60csx being off about 50-100 feet from roads. even sent it in and they sent me another. There response was basically that was the way it was, they won't show right on. Seems to be fine according to topo features though. I learned to just not zoom it in so it showed off the road, drove me crazy tracking as I was driving and not on roads.

[Getaround2it]

I received an email response from Garmin today. They assure me that the topo data is accurate even when the street data (seen as a sort of bonus in their eyes and not vital to the topo data) is off. Here's a quote from the email...

 

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

 

I am happy to help you with this. The Topo 2008 software was improved

by adding the street detail as an additional reference, however this is

still a Topo map. In some areas the street detail that is on the Topo

mapping will be offset, however the Topo detail is correct. I apologize

for the confusion.

 

With Best Regards,

 

Chris L.

Product Support Specialist

2nd Shift Outdoor/Fitness Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-397-8282 (fax) Att: Chris L.

www.garmin.com[/i]

What a crappy response . Since when roads stopped being topographic information?! I can understand that topographic map does not contain information about shops, gas stations and such, I can even swallow that it is not routable but mis-located roads is just not right. In my area (Hillsboro, Oregon), the offset is so bad that I cannot really use the map to navigate the neighbourhoods when on bike trip.

 

The unit is otherwise very precise because when I download the GPX file and display the trail using Google visualizer, it is almost perfect match.

 

Everything else than acknowledging the problem and promising free update in future is rather lame. There is no confusion, the roads are just misplaced.

 

I agree with other people that Topo US 2008 is more complete than 3.02 version (road info must have been some 20 years old in there), but many details are still lacking. I have had chance to use Topo Canada for a year and it was much better, there were some cases where the newer roads were missing (my guess is that anything built in last 10 years was not there) but it was routable!

 

When you look at what enthusiasts can do (IndyJpr's maps), it is sad. Heck, I would be willing to pay for regular updates if the price was reasonable.

 

I am new to geocaching but have used gps devices for years, hikiing and riding. I guess I'll throw my two cents in, for what it's worth. I have noticed over the years that google earth, mapsource, and other mapping software all seem to be somewhat inaccurate. That is, if comparing an actual known/viewed waypoint to what is seen on a map. However, a friend of mine has purchased a Delorme and uses Delorme mapping. I can't believe how accurate the software is.

I am a Garmin owner and really like the unit but the Delorme may have swayed me to another unit and mapping software.

[+sundogranch]

The basemap that came with my map-60 showed the cache clearly on the East side of Interstate 5. When I got close the cache was really on the other side of I-5 300+ feet away.

Do what I did and get a Cobra. No more problems like that and all the buttons still work after 3 yrs. Plus you get SiRf and an SD card slot And maps that Garmin will charge you $500 for.

(Edit)

Put this cache into your GPSr and then tell me what side of I-5 it is on...(GCH224)

Edited March 21, 2008 by sundogranch

[+coggins]

The basemap that came with my map-60 showed the cache clearly on the East side of Interstate 5. When I got close the cache was really on the other side of I-5 300+ feet away.

Do what I did and get a Cobra. No more problems like that and all the buttons still work after 3 yrs. Plus you get SiRf and an SD card slot And maps that Garmin will charge you $500 for.

(Edit)

Put this cache into your GPSr and then tell me what side of I-5 it is on...(GCH224)

Funny, google maps also shows this cache go be East of the 5 FWY. So you're saying it's really on the West side?

[Tomas4x4]

Two examples of how bad the road location on US TOPO 2008 could be:

 

 

On the first picture, it is off by almost 200m (~600ft). On the second, we were actually driving on the freeway some 180m on the left. When I upload the track to the Google using GPS Visualiser, it is right on so the GPS is set up properly and able to determine the location correctly (in case anyone wanted to point out possible 'user' error on my side )

Edited March 24, 2008 by Tomas4x4

[andylphoto]

The basemap that came with my map-60 showed the cache clearly on the East side of Interstate 5. When I got close the cache was really on the other side of I-5 300+ feet away.

Do what I did and get a Cobra. No more problems like that and all the buttons still work after 3 yrs. Plus you get SiRf and an SD card slot And maps that Garmin will charge you $500 for.

(Edit)

Put this cache into your GPSr and then tell me what side of I-5 it is on...(GCH224)

Funny, google maps also shows this cache go be East of the 5 FWY. So you're saying it's really on the West side?

 

Not only Google maps...just about every map linked from the cache page. Google, Mapquest, Rand McNally, Yahoo...Microsoft...Topozone. I couldn't get Terraserver to load, but if the coordinates are extremely accurate as sundogranch suggests, my guess is that everyone would put the location on the east side of the freeway. From the maps, it looks like it's 300 or so feet northeast of the NB lanes.

[+coggins]

The basemap that came with my map-60 showed the cache clearly on the East side of Interstate 5. When I got close the cache was really on the other side of I-5 300+ feet away.

Do what I did and get a Cobra. No more problems like that and all the buttons still work after 3 yrs. Plus you get SiRf and an SD card slot And maps that Garmin will charge you $500 for.

(Edit)

Put this cache into your GPSr and then tell me what side of I-5 it is on...(GCH224)

Funny, google maps also shows this cache go be East of the 5 FWY. So you're saying it's really on the West side?

 

Not only Google maps...just about every map linked from the cache page. Google, Mapquest, Rand McNally, Yahoo...Microsoft...Topozone. I couldn't get Terraserver to load, but if the coordinates are extremely accurate as sundogranch suggests, my guess is that everyone would put the location on the east side of the freeway. From the maps, it looks like it's 300 or so feet northeast of the NB lanes.

 

TOPO 2008 image. Maybe the foil cap is foiling sundogranch.