Quick question

[+Rockin Roddy]

Then why do you fixate on anything on a plane? I said I asked permission to use my GPS and that's been your main focus since. You even go on in depth as to what can be used and when I'd ask permission. I find I'm answering your plane questions more than anyone is focusing on the topic here.

In most intelligent conversations and debates the concept of using examples to illustrate a point is often used. Otherwise after the original question is answered all you're left with is back and forth, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't. Apparently you think you're allowed to use the permission on a plane as an example to prove your point, until you realize it's doing just the opposite, and then you call for a halt on all examples using a plane.

So...anything at all about the WW lot permission, or should we talk about whether I ask about closing my eyes on a plane next??

If you're insisting that we only stick to the original question and a direct answer, then I'll say (again) that you don't always have to ask for express permission to hide a cache at Walmart since you can often go with the adequate permission that already exists.

 

Ummmm, no....my point was made exactly. Not sure what your point was since you kept asking about calcs and Ipods and even a pen???? It's fine to use examples, but shouldn't the examples at least have SOMETHING to do with the topic?? Which, if I remember correctly, was about permission (which was addressed in my plane example, but then taken on and on and on by you with questions which really had nothing to do with the topic).

 

Wow...same view I have and HAVE had all along. Almost exactly what I've been saying. You and a few others seem to think that permission ISN'T needed for some places, that's fine. Since it IS the responsibility of the owner to assure YOU have permission to place the cache (and therefore WE have the permission to find it), I'm just hoping you're not checking the box on a cache where permission IS needed and not just assumed! I'd hate to be arrested or ticketed because someone THOUGHT they didn't need permission when they actually did!

 

oh...and I'm not the one who "insists" we stay on topic....that be the mods!

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

It's fine to use examples, but shouldn't the examples at least have SOMETHING to do with the topic?? Which, if I remember correctly, was about permission (which was addressed in my plane example, but then taken on and on and on by you with questions which really had nothing to do with the topic).

 

Wow...same view I have and HAVE had all along. Almost exactly what I've been saying. You and a few others seem to think that permission ISN'T needed for some places, that's fine. Since it IS the responsibility of the owner to assure YOU have permission to place the cache (and therefore WE have the permission to find it), I'm just hoping you're not checking the box on a cache where permission IS needed and not just assumed! I'd hate to be arrested or ticketed because someone THOUGHT they didn't need permission when they actually did!

Since you like your permission example using the airplane, I'll mention that I agree with it and follow your lead. As you stated:

... one should ASK if they have concern...

If I have a concern that permission would be needed I will always ask for it. If I do not have such a concern, I will not.

[+tozainamboku]

It was about LPMs. I don't know why you keep going on about airplanes.

Might as well debate airplanes, or zebras for that matter, makes as much sense as anything else in this thread!

Actually I like the gun debate. It may even be used to make a point that is on topic.

 

It seems that in most jurisdictions it is against the law to point a gun at someone and threaten them, even on your own property, except when you feel that that person is threatening you or another person in certain specific ways. In some places you might even be allowed to point a gun in defense of certain threats to property, though this seems limited to certain places where the pro-gun lobby is strongest.

 

In any case, if you are on your own property and feel threatened, it seems unlikely that your are going to call a lawyer to find out whether your situation falls within the law before you point your gun at someone. Hopefully, as a gun owner, you are aware of the generalities of the law and will use that to inform your decision to brandish you weapon. If you guess wrong, the likelihood is that the trespasser is not going to file charges, and even if he does the prosecutor probably won't bring charges. Sure, there is a chance you will go to jail but this isn't going to stop someone who honestly feels threatened.

 

In the same manner, those who truthfully believe that they have adequate permission to hide a geocache in a place where the public has permission to be and where the activity of geocaching does not interfere with other rights of the property owner, will continue to hide caches without asking for explicit permission. The property owner is unlikely to take any action beyond asking for the cache to be removed; if the property owner does call law enforcement to demand an arrest, the LEO will more than likely try to defuse the situation by asking the geocacher to leave and perhaps asking that he logs an SBA so that others will not come looking for the cache.

[+sbell111]

That was a very good analogy.

[+KBI]

I'll ask again...what was this topic about??

If you need to get express permission for hiding a cache at Walmart.

Then why do you fixate on anything on a plane? I said I asked permission to use my GPS and that's been your main focus since. You even go on in depth as to what can be used and when I'd ask permission. I find I'm answering your plane questions more than anyone is focusing on the topic here.

 

So...anything at all about the WW lot permission, or should we talk about whether I ask about closing my eyes on a plane next??

Not sure what your point was since you kept asking about calcs and Ipods and even a pen???? It's fine to use examples, but shouldn't the examples at least have SOMETHING to do with the topic?? Which, if I remember correctly, was about permission (which was addressed in my plane example, but then taken on and on and on by you with questions which really had nothing to do with the topic).

What Mushtang is explaining is called an analogy. An analogy is any logically relevant comparison, and is a valid and useful way to help clarify a point. Use of analogy, therefore, makes for good debate.

 

What you are doing with his analogy is called obfuscation. Obfuscation is any attempt to intentionally confuse things rather that deal directly with the merits of an argument. In this case, obfuscation is being used as a way to avoid the analogy because you either (1) don’t understand the analogy and are unable to respond, or (2) are unwilling to tackle the point made by the analogy and wish instead to intentionally confuse things, in the hopes that the analogy will go away – which makes for bad debate.

 

I understood Mushtang's analogy perfectly. Others seem to have understood it as well. He presented it to you in a variety of flavors, and in increasingly clear fashion.

 

Just because airplanes are being discussed doesn’t mean anyone is off topic. Use of analogy is a perfectly valid way to make a point. Examples:

You should remember that YOU don't own the land. You might pay taxes but that doesn't give you free use. I liken it to renting an apartment...it's MY home, but I can't just do as I please with it!

There are plenty of places land is restricted to some uses and other uses are banned...trails for horses while mountain biking is banned, 4 wheel trails where horses are banned....lands can have MANY uses banned for any reason the owner feels!

... using myself and a gun as an example....there are MANY places where people have guns readily available and aren't afraid to use them (Texas comes to mind right off). Assuming you have right to use could risk a confrontation with one of those people, I'm just pointing that possibility out!

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK.

It's much like my plane trip last night...I ASKED if I could use my GPS while flying instead of just assuming I could...

... which is comparing apples and oranges.

Presumably, one who is able (and willing) to construct and use comparisons which employ horses, guns, golf and fresh fruit should also be able to understand (and accept) analogies made by others which employ personal electronics and aircraft.

 

You have made extensive use of analogy in this thread, yet every time someone else uses an analogy to make a point you claim they are wandering off topic. Either you truly do not grasp other people’s comparisons (which I find hard to believe) ... or you are intentionally debating in bad faith, in which case you are not likely to ever convince anyone to see your point of view.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

I'll ask again...what was this topic about??

If you need to get express permission for hiding a cache at Walmart.

Then why do you fixate on anything on a plane? I said I asked permission to use my GPS and that's been your main focus since. You even go on in depth as to what can be used and when I'd ask permission. I find I'm answering your plane questions more than anyone is focusing on the topic here.

 

So...anything at all about the WW lot permission, or should we talk about whether I ask about closing my eyes on a plane next??

Not sure what your point was since you kept asking about calcs and Ipods and even a pen???? It's fine to use examples, but shouldn't the examples at least have SOMETHING to do with the topic?? Which, if I remember correctly, was about permission (which was addressed in my plane example, but then taken on and on and on by you with questions which really had nothing to do with the topic).

What Mushtang is explaining is called an analogy. An analogy is any logically relevant comparison, and is a valid and useful way to help clarify a point. Use of analogy, therefore, makes for good debate.

 

What you are doing with his analogy is called obfuscation. Obfuscation is any attempt to intentionally confuse things rather that deal directly with the merits of an argument. In this case, obfuscation is being used as a way to avoid the analogy because you either (1) don’t understand the analogy and are unable to respond, or (2) are unwilling to tackle the point made by the analogy and wish instead to intentionally confuse things, in the hopes that the analogy will go away – which makes for bad debate.

 

I understood Mushtang's analogy perfectly. Others seem to have understood it as well. He presented it to you in a variety of flavors, and in increasingly clear fashion.

 

Just because airplanes are being discussed doesn’t mean anyone is off topic. Use of analogy is a perfectly valid way to make a point. Examples:

You should remember that YOU don't own the land. You might pay taxes but that doesn't give you free use. I liken it to renting an apartment...it's MY home, but I can't just do as I please with it!

There are plenty of places land is restricted to some uses and other uses are banned...trails for horses while mountain biking is banned, 4 wheel trails where horses are banned....lands can have MANY uses banned for any reason the owner feels!

... using myself and a gun as an example....there are MANY places where people have guns readily available and aren't afraid to use them (Texas comes to mind right off). Assuming you have right to use could risk a confrontation with one of those people, I'm just pointing that possibility out!

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK.

It's much like my plane trip last night...I ASKED if I could use my GPS while flying instead of just assuming I could...

... which is comparing apples and oranges.

Presumably, one who is able (and willing) to construct and use comparisons which employ horses, guns, golf and fresh fruit should also be able to understand (and accept) analogies made by others which employ personal electronics and aircraft.

 

You have made extensive use of analogy in this thread, yet every time someone else uses an analogy to make a point you claim they are wandering off topic. Either you truly do not grasp other people’s comparisons (which I find hard to believe) ... or you are intentionally debating in bad faith, in which case you are not likely to ever convince anyone to see your point of view.

 

I agree completely.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'll ask again...what was this topic about??

If you need to get express permission for hiding a cache at Walmart.

Then why do you fixate on anything on a plane? I said I asked permission to use my GPS and that's been your main focus since. You even go on in depth as to what can be used and when I'd ask permission. I find I'm answering your plane questions more than anyone is focusing on the topic here.

 

So...anything at all about the WW lot permission, or should we talk about whether I ask about closing my eyes on a plane next??

Not sure what your point was since you kept asking about calcs and Ipods and even a pen???? It's fine to use examples, but shouldn't the examples at least have SOMETHING to do with the topic?? Which, if I remember correctly, was about permission (which was addressed in my plane example, but then taken on and on and on by you with questions which really had nothing to do with the topic).

What Mushtang is explaining is called an analogy. An analogy is any logically relevant comparison, and is a valid and useful way to help clarify a point. Use of analogy, therefore, makes for good debate.

 

What you are doing with his analogy is called obfuscation. Obfuscation is any attempt to intentionally confuse things rather that deal directly with the merits of an argument. In this case, obfuscation is being used as a way to avoid the analogy because you either (1) don’t understand the analogy and are unable to respond, or (2) are unwilling to tackle the point made by the analogy and wish instead to intentionally confuse things, in the hopes that the analogy will go away – which makes for bad debate.

 

I understood Mushtang's analogy perfectly. Others seem to have understood it as well. He presented it to you in a variety of flavors, and in increasingly clear fashion.

 

Just because airplanes are being discussed doesn’t mean anyone is off topic. Use of analogy is a perfectly valid way to make a point. Examples:

You should remember that YOU don't own the land. You might pay taxes but that doesn't give you free use. I liken it to renting an apartment...it's MY home, but I can't just do as I please with it!

There are plenty of places land is restricted to some uses and other uses are banned...trails for horses while mountain biking is banned, 4 wheel trails where horses are banned....lands can have MANY uses banned for any reason the owner feels!

... using myself and a gun as an example....there are MANY places where people have guns readily available and aren't afraid to use them (Texas comes to mind right off). Assuming you have right to use could risk a confrontation with one of those people, I'm just pointing that possibility out!

And if you want to talk parking lots...use my golf course. Say I just put a cache there since it's my lot and I perceive it to be OK.

It's much like my plane trip last night...I ASKED if I could use my GPS while flying instead of just assuming I could...

... which is comparing apples and oranges.

Presumably, one who is able (and willing) to construct and use comparisons which employ horses, guns, golf and fresh fruit should also be able to understand (and accept) analogies made by others which employ personal electronics and aircraft.

 

You have made extensive use of analogy in this thread, yet every time someone else uses an analogy to make a point you claim they are wandering off topic. Either you truly do not grasp other people’s comparisons (which I find hard to believe) ... or you are intentionally debating in bad faith, in which case you are not likely to ever convince anyone to see your point of view.

 

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but when comparing apples (GPS units) to oranges (a calculator), I see it as invalid in this case. A phone WOULD have been the right analogy, both receive (and transmit as has been pointed out), a computer might even be a proper analogy IF internet is capable of being accessed (no idea as I don't own a laptop). A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

Mushtang seemed more like trying to make light of the analogy I made with the GPS more than try to argue the point. Asking if I'd ask to use something that the airlines ALREADY made clear could be use is ridiculous (remember, the crew announces when CERTAIN electronics can be used). It's also questionable as to the permission of GPS units on ALL flights, some do, some don't (a thread was brought up recently)...so it's a fair jump to wonder if permission is needed (especially when it's NOT listed in the in-flight mag). I understand analogies, just not those ridiculous examples...almost makes me wonder if Mushtang was simply trolling...or maybe just trying to derail the topic by getting me into a separate issue

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+sbell111]

... It's also questionable as to the permission of GPS units on ALL flights, some do, some don't (a thread was brought up recently)...so it's a fair jump to wonder if permission is needed (especially when it's NOT listed in the in-flight mag). I understand analogies, just not those ridiculous examples...almost makes me wonder if Mushtang was simply trolling...or maybe just trying to derail the topic by getting me into a separate issue[/b]

Your analogy was appropriate, but not to make the case that explicit permission was required. Instead, it merely identified the devide between the two sides of the argument. You feel that since GPS use (or caching) wasn't addressed then permission should be requested. Others believe that since it wasn't addressed and is benign, then explicit permission is not required.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

 

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but when comparing apples (GPS units) to oranges (a calculator), I see it as invalid in this case. A phone WOULD have been the right analogy, both receive (and transmit as has been pointed out), a computer might even be a proper analogy IF internet is capable of being accessed (no idea as I don't own a laptop). A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

Mushtang seemed more like trying to make light of the analogy I made with the GPS more than try to argue the point. Asking if I'd ask to use something that the airlines ALREADY made clear could be use is ridiculous (remember, the crew announces when CERTAIN electronics can be used). It's also questionable as to the permission of GPS units on ALL flights, some do, some don't (a thread was brought up recently)...so it's a fair jump to wonder if permission is needed (especially when it's NOT listed in the in-flight mag). I understand analogies, just not those ridiculous examples...almost makes me wonder if Mushtang was simply trolling...or maybe just trying to derail the topic by getting me into a separate issue!

No offense Roddy but your replies throughout certainly make it appear you do not understand what he has been saying. I'm not going to join the dogfall by trying to explain it either, I just wanted to let you know how your resposes sound to others. Often in debates I have the same trouble getting a point across, and I've found many times it's best to just stop posting, going on for page after page almost never changes anything. It doesn't mean either side was right or wrong, it just means you've reached the point where there is nothing further to gain.

Of course if you continue I'll enjoy continuing to read them.

[+geowizerd]

I mean, if you already feel there is a good chance you can do this, asking doesn't hurt, right?

It's the same reason that I won't ask permission to play Frisbee in a park when I feel there's a good chance I can.

I won't ask permission to hike across public land when I feel there's a good chance I can.

I won't ask permission to drive around the back of Walmart to take a shortcut to another store, when I feel there's a good chance I can.

 

If you feel that you should ask permission to do things that you feel you can do anyway, go right ahead. I've got better things to do. I'll save my asking permission for things that I feel I couldn't, or shouldn't, do without permission.

Still didn't answer the question...You can SAY you will ask IF and WHEN you feel you must...maybe the landowner feels differently. But again, how would you know without asking? I guess if you get a ticket or worse, you'll have figured that wasn't the place to "play frisbee". You're right, I'll simply ask since it doesn't waste much more time to look up a phone number, seek out a land manager etc. In the end, I'll KNOW I have permission while you're still guessing! You see, maybe YOU weren't the first to throw a frisbee in the WM lot. Maybe the last person wasn't sooo nice and made trouble while out throwing that innocent frisbee, got the manager upset and he gets even more upset when you start playing YOUR game....but again, how would you know??

 

It's much like my plane trip last night...I ASKED if I could use my GPS while flying instead of just assuming I could...the flight crew not only gave permission, but they also gave me a quick tour of the cockpit, I had a talk with the captain and crew and the crew even came to check out the progress during the flight. The flight crew might not have been so "nice" about it had I not asked...but we'll never know! Better safe than sorry is my thought! Same idea with the land owners...make nice, make friends!

 

btw...the frisbee goes home at the end of the day....caching is a bit different than a game of frisbee.

 

Exactly why the frisbee rule is moot. You're not attaching it to someone else's property, for others to use. If I saw someone attaching something to my property, I wouldn't ask them to remove it, I'd wait till they left, and remove it myself. I'd keep it, if it seemed useful, or just throw it away. Hey, they left it on MY property, so they must have wanted me to have it, right?

[+KBI]

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but ... A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

I understand analogies ...

No, I’m not so sure you do.

 

In order to determine whether you truly understand Mushtang’s analogy, please answer this question:

 

Is there anything you would do as a passenger on an airliner without first asking the crew for permission?

 

Keep in mind that by anything I mean anything – talking, reading, thinking, sleeping, breathing – anything at all.

 

Please answer that question honestly, and then I (or preferably, Mushtang) will explain where your answer fits into his 'adequate permission' analogy.

[+TrailGators]

Here is an interesting article on the subject that is on the web today...

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but when comparing apples (GPS units) to oranges (a calculator), I see it as invalid in this case. A phone WOULD have been the right analogy, both receive (and transmit as has been pointed out), a computer might even be a proper analogy IF internet is capable of being accessed (no idea as I don't own a laptop). A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

Mushtang seemed more like trying to make light of the analogy I made with the GPS more than try to argue the point. Asking if I'd ask to use something that the airlines ALREADY made clear could be use is ridiculous (remember, the crew announces when CERTAIN electronics can be used). It's also questionable as to the permission of GPS units on ALL flights, some do, some don't (a thread was brought up recently)...so it's a fair jump to wonder if permission is needed (especially when it's NOT listed in the in-flight mag). I understand analogies, just not those ridiculous examples...almost makes me wonder if Mushtang was simply trolling...or maybe just trying to derail the topic by getting me into a separate issue!

No offense Roddy but your replies throughout certainly make it appear you do not understand what he has been saying. I'm not going to join the dogfall by trying to explain it either, I just wanted to let you know how your resposes sound to others. Often in debates I have the same trouble getting a point across, and I've found many times it's best to just stop posting, going on for page after page almost never changes anything. It doesn't mean either side was right or wrong, it just means you've reached the point where there is nothing further to gain.

Of course if you continue I'll enjoy continuing to read them.

 

Capt....I'm certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, my mind has been fogged by a few harsh blows to the head...I live with this and am fast to admit this! I don't see how a calc is even close to a GPS other than it uses batteries and is electrical. Therefore, to use it in this argument shows me that either Mushtang knows not what he's saying (which I find hard to believe) or maybe he's just derailing or even picking on my ignorance. To continue to use it as he did makes me think this even more...and then bring up a pen??

 

Actually, the whole topic had nothing to do with my GPS on the plane analogy, but as soon as it was brought up, Mushtang focused on that and has focused on that asking ridiculous questions about ink pens and such...even after I explained how he WAS comparing apples to oranges. In my opinion, this was merely to take the discussion further off course (hence my asking repeatedly what the topic was). I'll also admit that I often reply before considering the intent of the question (again, I'm slow), and looking back, I did answer some questions in a manner not intended...

 

I'm also one who is suspicious in nature, I wonder more WHY the question or comment was made than look at the question at times. And yes, I do feel some were preying on my slowness here.

 

It's all of 10 degrees outside, so I'm more than happy to kill a few hours having fun with you all here, I just don't like feeling I'm being belitteled (which I sometimes feel by a few here). I'm not against a bit of ribbing or even some ridiculing at times, but often I see total outright rudeness which really makes me wonder about the person doing this...and yes, I've found myself doing the same at times. I'm trying to watch myself and NOT do this, but sometimes I answer in kind before thinking about it!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but ... A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

I understand analogies ...

No, I’m not so sure you do.

 

In order to determine whether you truly understand Mushtang’s analogy, please answer this question:

 

Is there anything you would do as a passenger on an airliner without first asking the crew for permission?

 

Keep in mind that by anything I mean anything – talking, reading, thinking, sleeping, breathing – anything at all.

 

Please answer that question honestly, and then I (or preferably, Mushtang) will explain where your answer fits into his 'adequate permission' analogy.

 

KBI, I said I was slow...not stupid! Let me ask this...is there anything YOU'd do without asking on a plane? I guess where I stand is I'd ask about the GPS if it wasn't outlined. Other than that...what else would you need to ask about?

 

I'll tell you something I got a laugh at while on the return flight...a guy in front of us was talking lightly while the in-flight instructions (safety talk??) were being announced. The crew member was right in front of him and she very loudly and rudely "shh'ed" him and told him she'd have him removed. So maybe you need permission to talk during announcements??

[+Renegade Knight]

...Exactly why the frisbee rule is moot. ..

 

Ok then how about the cache rule. If I wouldn't mind placing a cache there I can break out into a game of Frisbee or Hackey Sack.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

Well as long as you are enjoying the debate carry on. But I think you are misconstruing Mushtangs posts, they aren't about the OBJECT (calc, pen, etc) but about the question "At what point is it neccessary to ask Permission to do something".

Since I have no desire to join the debate I'll leave now and resume lurker mode.

Good Luck.

[+scuba dude]

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but ... A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

I understand analogies ...

No, I’m not so sure you do.

 

In order to determine whether you truly understand Mushtang’s analogy, please answer this question:

 

Is there anything you would do as a passenger on an airliner without first asking the crew for permission?

 

Keep in mind that by anything I mean anything – talking, reading, thinking, sleeping, breathing – anything at all.

 

Please answer that question honestly, and then I (or preferably, Mushtang) will explain where your answer fits into his 'adequate permission' analogy.

 

KBI, I said I was slow...not stupid! Let me ask this...is there anything YOU'd do without asking on a plane? I guess where I stand is I'd ask about the GPS if it wasn't outlined. Other than that...what else would you need to ask about?

 

I'll tell you something I got a laugh at while on the return flight...a guy in front of us was talking lightly while the in-flight instructions (safety talk??) were being announced. The crew member was right in front of him and she very loudly and rudely "shh'ed" him and told him she'd have him removed. So maybe you need permission to talk during announcements??

 

Yet again you fail to answer even this simple question.

 

I can't decide which is worse, you or a troll. A troll will throw barbs and flames and wait for rest to start fighting. Arguing with you is like shadow boxing. I see you (your point) and make an (idealogical) attack. but you've moved away. The point you just claimed is now invalid in your new statements. You never take a stance, you just scream "gotcha" and jump to the left.

 

RR, troll. Troll, RR. I can't decide.

Edited January 25, 2008 by scuba dude

[+Renegade Knight]

...Now...what was the topic again??

Zebra's. I think they are white with black stripes, but I'd have to shave one and see what's under the fir to be sure.

[+Renegade Knight]

Well as long as you are enjoying the debate carry on. But I think you are misconstruing Mushtangs posts, they aren't about the OBJECT (calc, pen, etc) but about the question "At what point is it neccessary to ask Permission to do something".

Since I have no desire to join the debate I'll leave now and resume lurker mode.

Good Luck.

There are two answers to this.

A) When you feel you should.

When the court you find yourself in tells you that you should have.

 

The former is what we all do.

The latter is when we find out where the difference between when we think we should and when we really should have.

 

Alas there is no middle ground. You have to use your judgment until you are called on the carpet.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It was about LPMs. I don't know why you keep going on about airplanes.

Might as well debate airplanes, or zebras for that matter, makes as much sense as anything else in this thread!

Actually I like the gun debate. It may even be used to make a point that is on topic.

Oh yeah! Micros and airplanes and zebras and guns!

 

So, is it okay to throw a micro out of the airplane while flying around shooting zebras?

[+KBI]

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but ... A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

I understand analogies ...

No, I’m not so sure you do.

 

In order to determine whether you truly understand Mushtang’s analogy, please answer this question:

 

Is there anything you would do as a passenger on an airliner without first asking the crew for permission?

 

Keep in mind that by anything I mean anything – talking, reading, thinking, sleeping, breathing – anything at all.

 

Please answer that question honestly, and then I (or preferably, Mushtang) will explain where your answer fits into his 'adequate permission' analogy.

 

KBI, I said I was slow...not stupid!

Slow? Stupid? When did I ever say or imply that you were either?

 

I believe you are neither slow nor stupid. Quite the contrary, in fact, which is why I believe your careful and honest answer to the question will allow me (or Mushtang) to help you understand the intended comparison.

 

Let me ask this...is there anything YOU'd do without asking on a plane?

I asked you first.

 

I guess where I stand is I'd ask about the GPS if it wasn't outlined. Other than that...what else would you need to ask about?

That is a relatively accurate paraphrase of the question.

 

Now, can you please answer the question?

 

I'll tell you something I got a laugh at while on the return flight...a guy in front of us was talking lightly while the in-flight instructions (safety talk??) were being announced. The crew member was right in front of him and she very loudly and rudely "shh'ed" him and told him she'd have him removed. So maybe you need permission to talk during announcements??

In case I failed to make myself clear: I was not talking about the special case of "during the safety demonstrations," nor any other special case you may have in mind. Let’s assume we are only talking about the other 99.9% of the flight's duration. Can you answer the question now, please?

Edited January 25, 2008 by KBI

[+Rockin Roddy]

Well as long as you are enjoying the debate carry on. But I think you are misconstruing Mushtangs posts, they aren't about the OBJECT (calc, pen, etc) but about the question "At what point is it neccessary to ask Permission to do something".

Since I have no desire to join the debate I'll leave now and resume lurker mode.

Good Luck.

It's mostly fun Capt. Now that you put it that way though, I do see what Mushtang might have been trying to get to. As I said, I'm slow and suspicious...a bad mix for these forums!! Reading it in the friendly text you put it really helps more than feeling I'm being badgered and such.

 

TG...that little article seemed to go in circles to me. He says it doesn't and then proves it can with the speaker, then goes back to the insulated wires....wow!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I fully understand what Mushtang was TRYING to do, but ... A calculator or Ipod?? Neither is in the same range as a GPS or phone...and an ink pen? Please!

 

I understand analogies ...

No, I’m not so sure you do.

 

In order to determine whether you truly understand Mushtang’s analogy, please answer this question:

 

Is there anything you would do as a passenger on an airliner without first asking the crew for permission?

 

Keep in mind that by anything I mean anything – talking, reading, thinking, sleeping, breathing – anything at all.

 

Please answer that question honestly, and then I (or preferably, Mushtang) will explain where your answer fits into his 'adequate permission' analogy.

 

KBI, I said I was slow...not stupid!

Slow? Stupid? When did I ever say or imply that you were either?

 

I believe you are neither slow nor stupid. Quite the contrary, in fact, which is why I believe your careful and honest answer to my question will allow me (or Mushtang) to help you understand the intended comparison.

 

Let me ask this...is there anything YOU'd do without asking on a plane?

I asked you first.

 

I guess where I stand is I'd ask about the GPS if it wasn't outlined. Other than that...what else would you need to ask about?

That is a relatively accurate paraphrase of the question.

 

Now, can you please answer the question?

 

I'll tell you something I got a laugh at while on the return flight...a guy in front of us was talking lightly while the in-flight instructions (safety talk??) were being announced. The crew member was right in front of him and she very loudly and rudely "shh'ed" him and told him she'd have him removed. So maybe you need permission to talk during announcements??

In case I failed to make myself clear: I was not talking about the special case of "during the safety demonstrations," nor any other special case you may have in mind. Let’s assume we are only talking about the other 99.9% of the flight's duration. Can you answer the question now, please?

 

I thought I answered it when I said I'd ask about the GPS. I felt you thought I was slow or stupid when you brought up the breathing thing...or were you serious?

[+Rockin Roddy]

It was about LPMs. I don't know why you keep going on about airplanes.

Might as well debate airplanes, or zebras for that matter, makes as much sense as anything else in this thread!

Actually I like the gun debate. It may even be used to make a point that is on topic.

Oh yeah! Micros and airplanes and zebras and guns!

 

So, is it okay to throw a micro out of the airplane while flying around shooting zebras?

 

How would the zebras be flying? I'm guessing NO because guns aren't allowed on the plane, the windows won't open and throwing things from the plane (if you COULD open the window) would be littering. Besides, how would you mark the location??

 

Now, what was the topic again??

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It was about LPMs. I don't know why you keep going on about airplanes.

Might as well debate airplanes, or zebras for that matter, makes as much sense as anything else in this thread!

Actually I like the gun debate. It may even be used to make a point that is on topic.

Oh yeah! Micros and airplanes and zebras and guns!

 

So, is it okay to throw a micro out of the airplane while flying around shooting zebras?

 

How would the zebras be flying? I'm guessing NO because guns aren't allowed on the plane, the windows won't open and throwing things from the plane (if you COULD open the window) would be littering. Besides, how would you mark the location??

 

Now, what was the topic again??

Edited January 25, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+KBI]

I thought I answered it when I said I'd ask about the GPS.

Nope. You merely restated the question. I need a clear answer.

 

I felt you thought I was slow or stupid when you brought up the breathing thing...

Nope. No offense intended. I promise.

 

or were you serious?

Yup. It's a serious question.

 

If you will please answer the question, I will then use your answer to help you understand the intent of Mushtang's analogy.

 

If you have no interest in answering the question however, as I am beginning to suspect is the case, then I have no interest in continuing this exchange any further.

 

Your choice.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I thought I answered it when I said I'd ask about the GPS.

Nope. You merely restated the question. I need a clear answer.

 

I felt you thought I was slow or stupid when you brought up the breathing thing...

Nope. No offense intended. I promise.

 

or were you serious?

Yup. It's a serious question.

 

If you will please answer the question, I will then use your answer to help you understand the intent of Mushtang's analogy.

 

If you have no interest in answering the question however, as I am beginning to suspect is the case, then I have no interest in continuing this exchange any further.

 

Your choice.

 

KBI...I'm serious when I say the GPS is the ONLY thing I'd ask about. I can think of NOTHING more to ask about. I've flown several times, the ONLY time I ever felt a need to ask a question of the crew was when I flew to Hawaii and asked if I could stand in the galley (which I did for MOST of the flight...I also have a bad back and knees and flights are bad on my poor body)!

[+waterwitch2]

This made me have to edit my signature. LOL

[+Too Tall John]

...you don't always have to ask for express permission to hide a cache at Walmart since you can often go with the adequate permission that already exists.

Where, again, did you determine you have adequate permission?

 

Leaving out anything I've said, I think I've read enough posts from people saying you need explicit permission to hide a cache on private property, which Wal-Mart property is.

 

Including my posts (and others), Wal-Mart policies won't allow caches on their property.

 

Where can I get the special Gold Cache Placing Pass that you apparently have?

 

[+scuba dude]

I thought I answered it when I said I'd ask about the GPS.

Nope. You merely restated the question. I need a clear answer.

 

I felt you thought I was slow or stupid when you brought up the breathing thing...

Nope. No offense intended. I promise.

 

or were you serious?

Yup. It's a serious question.

 

If you will please answer the question, I will then use your answer to help you understand the intent of Mushtang's analogy.

 

If you have no interest in answering the question however, as I am beginning to suspect is the case, then I have no interest in continuing this exchange any further.

 

Your choice.

 

KBI...I'm serious when I say the GPS is the ONLY thing I'd ask about. I can think of NOTHING more to ask about. I've flown several times, the ONLY time I ever felt a need to ask a question of the crew was when I flew to Hawaii and asked if I could stand in the galley (which I did for MOST of the flight...I also have a bad back and knees and flights are bad on my poor body)!

 

And again you fail to answer the simple question.

 

I think you ARE being a troll. You making wild claims, and then refusing to answer as to what your stance is.

 

On the other hand, you might have a great future as a political pundent.

[+egami]

lol, that's classic...SD labeling people trolls again...

[+Rockin Roddy]

I thought I answered it when I said I'd ask about the GPS.

Nope. You merely restated the question. I need a clear answer.

 

I felt you thought I was slow or stupid when you brought up the breathing thing...

Nope. No offense intended. I promise.

 

or were you serious?

Yup. It's a serious question.

 

If you will please answer the question, I will then use your answer to help you understand the intent of Mushtang's analogy.

 

If you have no interest in answering the question however, as I am beginning to suspect is the case, then I have no interest in continuing this exchange any further.

 

Your choice.

 

KBI...I'm serious when I say the GPS is the ONLY thing I'd ask about. I can think of NOTHING more to ask about. I've flown several times, the ONLY time I ever felt a need to ask a question of the crew was when I flew to Hawaii and asked if I could stand in the galley (which I did for MOST of the flight...I also have a bad back and knees and flights are bad on my poor body)!

 

And again you fail to answer the simple question.

 

I think you ARE being a troll. You making wild claims, and then refusing to answer as to what your stance is.

 

On the other hand, you might have a great future as a political pundent.

I think YOU'RE a troll...why do you care about my conversation with KBI? If you only want to come in and stir the pot, BUTT OUT! Oh, and what wild claims have I made?? Wanna back up your comments with something or you just trolling?

 

KBI...you asked for an answer, you got it. Were you merely playing with me or didn't you think I was serious? I was.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Rockin Roddy]

Wait...you're right. I'd ask about my computer...IF I had one (so I guess that's out). I'd ask for a can of soda when the lady comes around (except I don't have a credit card to buy the soda with...so I guess that's also out). I MIGHT even ask for a pillow if I were in need (ooops, the last flight didn't have any pillows or blankets...guess that's gone as well).

 

Seriously KBI...I can't imagine having to ask ANYTHING else other than about the GPS! But then, I'm starting to feel you weren't serious and were merely playing me....hope I'm wrong!

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+scuba dude]

lol, that's classic...SD labeling people trolls again...

 

Well, you labeled yourself as troll in earlier discussion, so back under your bridge.

Edited January 25, 2008 by scuba dude

[+scuba dude]

I think YOU'RE a troll...why do you care about my conversation with KBI? If you only want to come in and stir the pot, BUTT OUT! Oh, and what wild claims have I made?? Wanna back up your comments with something or you just trolling?

 

KBI...you asked for an answer, you got it. Were you merely playing with me or didn't you think I was serious? I was.

 

Look at all the hostility! Just becuase I pointed out that you STILL failed to answered a simple question. This is a public forum, NOT a private conversation between yourself and BKI, or anyone else.

 

So, are you willing to FINALLY state your position, or are you still going to keep making diversive comments about things you have to ask for anyway. Honestly, you keep dancing around the questions.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I think YOU'RE a troll...why do you care about my conversation with KBI? If you only want to come in and stir the pot, BUTT OUT! Oh, and what wild claims have I made?? Wanna back up your comments with something or you just trolling?

 

KBI...you asked for an answer, you got it. Were you merely playing with me or didn't you think I was serious? I was.

 

Look at all the hostility! Just becuase I pointed out that you STILL failed to answered a simple question. This is a public forum, NOT a private conversation between yourself and BKI, or anyone else.

 

So, are you willing to FINALLY state your position, or are you still going to keep making diversive comments about things you have to ask for anyway. Honestly, you keep dancing around the questions.

You got something to add or just trolling again? READ what is written...if you can't ask for help!

 

The hostility comes from your earlier posts as well as calling me a troll...might I remind you AGAIN that name calling is frowned upon here?

[+egami]

lol, that's classic...SD labeling people trolls again...

 

Well, you labeled yourself as troll in earlier discussion, so back under your bridge.

 

I have never labeled myself a troll. I don't "troll" topics. I just find it ironic that you have a habit of falling back on that in recent discussions when things don't go your way.

 

This is another topic that should be closed by the mods...it's gone way off base and is just generating more chaos.

[Mushtang]

...you don't always have to ask for express permission to hide a cache at Walmart since you can often go with the adequate permission that already exists.

Where, again, did you determine you have adequate permission?

The Frisbee Test, the RV Overnight test, the Sit In Your Car In A Shady Corner During Lunch To Listen To Music And Eat A Sandwich test, etc.

 

I wouldn't ask permission before doing any of those things, and I don't think I'd be bothered. This has all been said before multiple times, but I'm willing to answer the questions again.

 

Leaving out anything I've said, I think I've read enough posts from people saying you need explicit permission to hide a cache on private property, which Wal-Mart property is.

You've read posts of people giving their opinion on what the quidelines state in general terms. I'd agree that I'd need express permission before hiding a cache in your yard, but I wouldn't agree that I'd need express permission to hide one in a Walmart Parking lot because I believe that it would be okay to do so, and therefore adequate permission has been satisfied.

 

Including my posts (and others), Wal-Mart policies won't allow caches on their property.

If this were true then 1) They must already know what geocaching is for there to be a policy against it, and therefore 2) they must already know that a lot of caches existed on their property in order to have learned about it, so it stands to reason that they would have 3) contacted the website and asked that they not approve caches on their property. It would be VERY easy for the website and/or Walmart to end all of the Walmart parking lot caches. This makes me think that there is no such thing as an official policy of Walmart to not allow caches on their property.

 

Where can I get the special Gold Cache Placing Pass that you apparently have?

You just have to open your mind to the possibility that you're wrong.

 

[+KBI]

KBI...you asked for an answer, you got it. Were you merely playing with me or didn't you think I was serious? I was.

Seriously KBI...I can't imagine having to ask ANYTHING else other than about the GPS! But then, I'm starting to feel you weren't serious and were merely playing me....hope I'm wrong!

Please be patient with me. I’ve got other things going on over here, and I can’t always answer right away.

 

KBI...I'm serious when I say the GPS is the ONLY thing I'd ask about. I can think of NOTHING more to ask about. I've flown several times, the ONLY time I ever felt a need to ask a question of the crew was when I flew to Hawaii and asked if I could stand in the galley (which I did for MOST of the flight...I also have a bad back and knees and flights are bad on my poor body)!

Wait...you're right. I'd ask about my computer...IF I had one (so I guess that's out). I'd ask for a can of soda when the lady comes around (except I don't have a credit card to buy the soda with...so I guess that's also out). I MIGHT even ask for a pillow if I were in need (ooops, the last flight didn't have any pillows or blankets...guess that's gone as well).

 

Seriously KBI...I can't imagine having to ask ANYTHING else other than about the GPS! But then, I'm starting to feel you weren't serious and were merely playing me....hope I'm wrong!

Well, instead of answering my question directly you’re sort of backing into an answer, but I don’t see why I can’t meet you halfway in the interest of saving time.

 

For the purpose of this discussion, then, let’s say your answer to my question might be: "Well, KBI, I suppose while in flight I would eat a sandwich I had purchased inside the terminal before boarding, and I would be comfortable doing so without asking permission from the crew."

 

Is that fair, Roddy? Are you willing to let that stand as your answer? Would you eat a pre-purchased sandwich during flight without first asking express permission from the crew?

 

Please answer yes or no before we continue. We need to clearly establish your response before we press forward.

[+Rockin Roddy]

KBI...you asked for an answer, you got it. Were you merely playing with me or didn't you think I was serious? I was.

Seriously KBI...I can't imagine having to ask ANYTHING else other than about the GPS! But then, I'm starting to feel you weren't serious and were merely playing me....hope I'm wrong!

Please be patient with me. I’ve got other things going on over here, and I can’t always answer right away.

 

KBI...I'm serious when I say the GPS is the ONLY thing I'd ask about. I can think of NOTHING more to ask about. I've flown several times, the ONLY time I ever felt a need to ask a question of the crew was when I flew to Hawaii and asked if I could stand in the galley (which I did for MOST of the flight...I also have a bad back and knees and flights are bad on my poor body)!

Wait...you're right. I'd ask about my computer...IF I had one (so I guess that's out). I'd ask for a can of soda when the lady comes around (except I don't have a credit card to buy the soda with...so I guess that's also out). I MIGHT even ask for a pillow if I were in need (ooops, the last flight didn't have any pillows or blankets...guess that's gone as well).

 

Seriously KBI...I can't imagine having to ask ANYTHING else other than about the GPS! But then, I'm starting to feel you weren't serious and were merely playing me....hope I'm wrong!

Well, instead of answering my question directly you’re sort of backing into an answer, but I don’t see why I can’t meet you halfway in the interest of saving time.

 

For the purpose of this discussion, then, let’s say your answer to my question might be: "Well, KBI, I suppose while in flight I would eat a sandwich I had purchased inside the terminal before boarding, and I would be comfortable doing so without asking permission from the crew."

 

Is that fair, Roddy? Are you willing to let that stand as your answer? Would you eat a pre-purchased sandwich during flight without first asking express permission from the crew?

 

Please answer yes or no before we continue. We need to clearly establish your response before we press forward.

 

KBI...the last flight I took didn't even OFFER drinks or sandwhiches, you either bought them on board with a CC (which I don't have) or you brought them on. I took a big tin of choco covered pretzels (that I made) with me and we ate every one...nope, didn't even THINK to ask. So...YEP, no problem. Now, as for drinks...I only drink water (mostly at least)...BUT NO liquids can be brought from outside the secure zone...I bought water and a gatorade (my other liquid of choice) to drink with my pretzels.

 

I'm off for town, will be back in an hour or so.

 

I'd also bring on my own reading material...

[+scuba dude]

lol, that's classic...SD labeling people trolls again...

 

Well, you labeled yourself as troll in earlier discussion, so back under your bridge.

 

I have never labeled myself a troll. I don't "troll" topics. I just find it ironic that you have a habit of falling back on that in recent discussions when things don't go your way.

 

This is another topic that should be closed by the mods...it's gone way off base and is just generating more chaos.

 

(egami @ Jan 8 2008, 12:12 PM)

For the most part I was trying to see how far these guys were trying to take it.

........

(mushtang) Sounds like a troll to me. Not that you were responding to any of my posts anyway, but we're done now. I don't respond to self admitted trolling behavior. Up until that post I assumed you were discussing this in good faith, trying to show your viewpoint, not just trying to see how far we would take it.

 

 

You admitted you were holding to a false belief simply to provoke a response by others. THAT is being a troll. If you could answer truthfully, or constuctively this could be a good discusion.

 

SD

[+scuba dude]

 

Please answer yes or no before we continue. We need to clearly establish your response before we press forward.

 

You'll never get straight answer from him. He's saying "yes" without saying yes, so that later he can claim he never said that.

 

I'm done with this thread now. But I have another person to add to my ignore list!

 

SD

[+Quiggle]

I guess the "Quick question" in the title was misleading as this one took off on a wild tangent.

 

Closing thread.