mrbeachroach Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Winter is coming and Im getting ready to plan a sweet leval 5 cache. The 3rd stage will take them to a watery spot that will have the cache compleatly submerged 3-4- feet underwater. I live in tennessee and because the water is mostly moving I dont think the water will freeze, but if the container is flimsy, it may bust, from extremitys. If I use a non waterproof container, like a plastic pharmacy pill bottle, I feel like laminated cocordences, will still get wet and probably ruen. Must I break down and get a professional container? If not what can I put the cords on to keep them around without re-maintance? Please help, I want to do this the right way. Thanks Quote Link to comment
me_chris Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) Get them engraved on a metal dog-tag? Or use a Bison Tube. Edited November 29, 2007 by irchriscdk Quote Link to comment
+meralgia Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) try those floating key holders. they should be watertight with the rubber o-ring. you just need enough weight on the bottom to keep it down. Edited November 29, 2007 by meralgia Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 Get them engraved on a metal dog-tag? Or use a Bison Tube. I thought about that but dont you think that mettal dog tag would rust? Quote Link to comment
+palmetto Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Write the coordinates with a permanent marker on a piece of diver's slate. Then it really doesn't matter if they get wet. In fact, if you use a container that's open to the water, you won't be fighting changes of water levels and air pressure in the container. Engraving into a brass tag would also work, like dog collar ID tag. Though that engraving tends to be shallow and fine line; could be unreadable after submersion. Quote Link to comment
+BBWolf+3Pigs Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Find a local machine shop and get a small bar of aluminum, and stamp them into the bar. Drill hole for a tie down mechanism. All set. Quote Link to comment
me_chris Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Get them engraved on a metal dog-tag? Or use a Bison Tube. I thought about that but dont you think that mettal dog tag would rust? Not if you get an aluminum dog tag... :-) Or stainless steel. Quote Link to comment
+Delawhere Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Several of my caches are submerged. I use a bison tube. My log sheets are write in the rain paper so that damp hands or a drop of water from the rest of the cache container doesn't ruin the log sheet. I haven't had a problem (frantically looking for a piece of wood to knock) Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 This could be a pretty tough proposition. Water is a powerful force. I assume the water in question will probably be muddy. The combination of erosion, mud and submersion make for a tough environment. Also there is added pressure in submersion (not tremendously significant in 4 feet, but still a consideration). What works with shallow water might not work if it is submerged just a little deeper. I would think a combination of techniques would be best. Perhaps get an engraved ALuminum dog tag and place it in a jar with a coarse threaded or gasketed lid. The engraved tag would thus not be subject to mud and erosion. I have had 2 caches out that were submerged for some periods of time and did not leak, but not any that were designed for permanent submersion. One was a waterproof matchbox as shown by brianSnat and others in your other thread. I had it in a storm sewer for several years and it went through many deluges satisfactorily. Another is a plastic jar from WalMart with a stainless steel ring around the top, a gasket, and a stainless steel lever closure system. It cost about 5 bucks. It is under a rock beside a creek that generally floods twice yearly. It has been submerged in about 2-3 feet of water for as much as a month. No leaks yet. A very important consideration for your purposes is also that the closure and seal be foolproof. Fools cache, and they will find a way to not close it properly. Hope some of this helps. Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 Several of my caches are submerged. I use a bison tube. My log sheets are write in the rain paper so that damp hands or a drop of water from the rest of the cache container doesn't ruin the log sheet. I haven't had a problem (frantically looking for a piece of wood to knock) How big are the bison tubes you use, I have bought severall of ebay, but they look a little cheaper than the ones Ive seen in real caches. Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 This could be a pretty tough proposition. Water is a powerful force. I assume the water in question will probably be muddy. The combination of erosion, mud and submersion make for a tough environment. Also there is added pressure in submersion (not tremendously significant in 4 feet, but still a consideration). What works with shallow water might not work if it is submerged just a little deeper. I would think a combination of techniques would be best. Perhaps get an engraved ALuminum dog tag and place it in a jar with a coarse threaded or gasketed lid. The engraved tag would thus not be subject to mud and erosion. I have had 2 caches out that were submerged for some periods of time and did not leak, but not any that were designed for permanent submersion. One was a waterproof matchbox as shown by brianSnat and others in your other thread. I had it in a storm sewer for several years and it went through many deluges satisfactorily. Another is a plastic jar from WalMart with a stainless steel ring around the top, a gasket, and a stainless steel lever closure system. It cost about 5 bucks. It is under a rock beside a creek that generally floods twice yearly. It has been submerged in about 2-3 feet of water for as much as a month. No leaks yet. A very important consideration for your purposes is also that the closure and seal be foolproof. Fools cache, and they will find a way to not close it properly. Hope some of this helps. I like the dog tag in the jar also, what section of walmart did you get the jar at? also I appricate all your help in all my threads. Jason Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Bison tubes are interesting. I cannot say i have ever found one wet inside, but they DO have an o-ring that can get lost or broken (been there done that) I carried one in my pocket for a couple of years with nitro pills in it (gee, that's what they were made for- imagine that) and the pills "leaked" (powder) out of the inner bottle but never through the outer metal case. Wal-Mart sells "knock-off" large "Bison" tubes at the pharmacy counter for about 5 bucks. They are roughly the size of a film can. I have only found one in the wild that i can remember and where it was hidden it didn't get much rain exposure. The "normal" (most common) size Bison tube is about 3/4" long and 3/8" O.D. They come in various sizes. Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 This could be a pretty tough proposition. Water is a powerful force. I assume the water in question will probably be muddy. The combination of erosion, mud and submersion make for a tough environment. Also there is added pressure in submersion (not tremendously significant in 4 feet, but still a consideration). What works with shallow water might not work if it is submerged just a little deeper. I would think a combination of techniques would be best. Perhaps get an engraved ALuminum dog tag and place it in a jar with a coarse threaded or gasketed lid. The engraved tag would thus not be subject to mud and erosion. I have had 2 caches out that were submerged for some periods of time and did not leak, but not any that were designed for permanent submersion. One was a waterproof matchbox as shown by brianSnat and others in your other thread. I had it in a storm sewer for several years and it went through many deluges satisfactorily. Another is a plastic jar from WalMart with a stainless steel ring around the top, a gasket, and a stainless steel lever closure system. It cost about 5 bucks. It is under a rock beside a creek that generally floods twice yearly. It has been submerged in about 2-3 feet of water for as much as a month. No leaks yet. A very important consideration for your purposes is also that the closure and seal be foolproof. Fools cache, and they will find a way to not close it properly. Hope some of this helps. I like the dog tag in the jar also, what section of walmart did you get the jar at? also I appricate all your help in all my threads. Jason thanks. The jars I got at WM were in the housewares department. I think they are meant for potpourri and flour and stuff like that. I have a second one covered in camo tape and tucked in a rock crevice in a KY State park. It hasn't been out long enough to know about its survival. Originally I had an ammo can at this location and I think it might have floated away during a flood. (the second ammo can definitely did NOT, but that's another story) I hope my new jar is high enough to miss the yearly floods, but time will tell. Quote Link to comment
+Isonzo Karst Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 I own a multi cache with a submerged stage. I used a piece of aluminum sheeting and a hole punch to punch out the tenths, hundreds and thousands of the lat/long next stage. This was a bit tedious, but cheap (I already had the sheet aluminum). You *might* be able to do this with an aluminum pie plate or some other aluminum flashing. Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Saw stainless steel dogtags in a small Lock-n_lock once - it had been there for about 7 or 8 months and was in good shape. Quote Link to comment
+DocDiTTo Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 If you laminate coordinates before putting them in a waterproof container, the coords should be good even if the container fails. Personally, I like the stamped metal idea too, in fact I've got a cache concept already in the works that will use stamped aluminum tags wired around tree trunks. Putting them under water would be fine too. Another thing you could do is use a piece of rope/cord made of nylon (or similar non-rotting material) and tie knots holding plastic washers in it as a means of providing numbers. (ie if a knot holds 3 washers, that's a 3, etc). Completely waterproof, and there's no worry about leaking. Quote Link to comment
+logonwheeler Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) Bison tubes are interesting. I cannot say i have ever found one wet inside, but they DO have an o-ring that can get lost or broken (been there done that) I carried one in my pocket for a couple of years with nitro pills in it (gee, that's what they were made for- imagine that) and the pills "leaked" (powder) out of the inner bottle but never through the outer metal case. Wal-Mart sells "knock-off" large "Bison" tubes at the pharmacy counter for about 5 bucks. They are roughly the size of a film can. I have only found one in the wild that i can remember and where it was hidden it didn't get much rain exposure. The "normal" (most common) size Bison tube is about 3/4" long and 3/8" O.D. They come in various sizes. I believe the "knock off large Bison tubes" that Confucius was talking about are ones like these. I have quite a few of these and have to say that I think that they are either on par or better than an equivalent bison tube. The have a very hearty o-ring and a robust wall structure to them. Combine that with good thread quality on the body and the lid along with a slightly larger size than your standard micro and I think you have a winner! I would definitely trust these to be waterproof underwater as long as the last person screwed the lid back on properly. Then again as mentioned you cant go wrong with the waterproof match stick containers as well. Edited November 29, 2007 by logonwheeler Quote Link to comment
Ferreter5 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 You could use some of those aluminum tags that can be "engraved" by writing on them with a ballpoint pen -- they're used for tagging plants/trees. Quote Link to comment
+Scare Force One Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Write the coordinates with a permanent marker on a piece of diver's slate. Then it really doesn't matter if they get wet. In fact, if you use a container that's open to the water, you won't be fighting changes of water levels and air pressure in the container. Engraving into a brass tag would also work, like dog collar ID tag. Though that engraving tends to be shallow and fine line; could be unreadable after submersion. If you did this you could make it even harder. Let the slate BE the cache. No container or anything like that, just a small peice of slate weighted to the bottom. ~.~Scare Force One Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 If you laminate coordinates before putting them in a waterproof container, the coords should be good even if the container fails. Personally, I like the stamped metal idea too, in fact I've got a cache concept already in the works that will use stamped aluminum tags wired around tree trunks. Putting them under water would be fine too. Another thing you could do is use a piece of rope/cord made of nylon (or similar non-rotting material) and tie knots holding plastic washers in it as a means of providing numbers. (ie if a knot holds 3 washers, that's a 3, etc). Completely waterproof, and there's no worry about leaking. Dude the idea with the washers is pretty intence, I like it alot, the trick will be getting the people to know which way the coordinates start up or down, and which are long and which are latt. I guess I could use different colored nylon Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dude the idea with the washers is pretty intence, I like it alot, the trick will be getting the people to know which way the coordinates start up or down, and which are long and which are latt. I guess I could use different colored nylon Just put the instructions in the cache page. Sometimes it's just shame on them if people don't take the page with them. Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Personally, I like the stamped metal idea too, in fact I've got a cache concept already in the works that will use stamped aluminum tags wired around tree trunks.... What you see is a brass washer, about 1.5 inches diameter, attached with cable secured with a crimped ferrule. It has distance and direction stamped. It has been on this wild olive tree for almost 5 years, and there is enough slack in the cable for this slow growing tree for about another 10-15 years before I need to replace with a bigger cable. Quote Link to comment
GeoPirates2007 Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Get them engraved on a metal dog-tag? Or use a Bison Tube. I thought about that but dont you think that mettal dog tag would rust? Not if you get an aluminum dog tag... :-) Or stainless steel. Stainless steel will corrode too Quote Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Great ideas here, everyone. I do want to make a comment about bison tubes. It sounds like people have had good experiences with them. But they're not full-proof. There was a cache in Seattle that was a bison tube hanging from a string from a dock into a lake (deep in the lake). It didn't get very wet inside, but there was enough moisture to make the paper damp enough to be hard to handle. The owner kept trying, but eventually archived the cache because it was too much trouble. I'm sure if it's just a stage to a multi, a laminated paper or rite in rain would do just fine, though (I'm not sure if that owner tried rite in rain?). Quote Link to comment
+DocDiTTo Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Another thing you could do is use a piece of rope/cord made of nylon (or similar non-rotting material) and tie knots holding plastic washers in it as a means of providing numbers. (ie if a knot holds 3 washers, that's a 3, etc). Completely waterproof, and there's no worry about leaking. Dude the idea with the washers is pretty intence, I like it alot, the trick will be getting the people to know which way the coordinates start up or down, and which are long and which are latt. I guess I could use different colored nylon Most folks will figure out which is up and down when they look at their current location compared to the numbers gleaned from the washers. To help them, use 2 empty knots together between the latitude and longitude (one empty knot would be 0). And, as Confucius' Cat said, written instructions will clarify everything. And your color idea is fine too. Lots of ways to pull this off, the important thing as that water is no longer a factor. Quote Link to comment
Ferreter5 Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 You could use some of those aluminum tags that can be "engraved" by writing on them with a ballpoint pen -- they're used for tagging plants/trees. By the by, here's what they usually look like when you "write on" / "engrave" them: They're usually some aluminum wrapped around a cardboard core. The core provides the backing that makes it easy to indent the aluminum with a ballpoint pen. If someday the cardboard disintegrates the indented aluminum still remains. These can be purchased at most garden places or you could probably make some yourself out of an aluminum can and a bit of thin cardboard. Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 Personally, I like the stamped metal idea too, in fact I've got a cache concept already in the works that will use stamped aluminum tags wired around tree trunks.... What you see is a brass washer, about 1.5 inches diameter, attached with cable secured with a crimped ferrule. It has distance and direction stamped. It has been on this wild olive tree for almost 5 years, and there is enough slack in the cable for this slow growing tree for about another 10-15 years before I need to replace with a bigger cable. How do you get them stamped, and how much does it cost? Quote Link to comment
darren_ Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) [commercial content deleted by moderator] Edited December 1, 2007 by Quiggle Quote Link to comment
+DocDiTTo Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 How do you get them stamped, and how much does it cost? You can buy a set of metal punches at Harbor Freight or some similar place, a whole set of numbers and letters runs about $10-$15. You then use a hammer and stamp 'em yourself. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) The "normal" (most common) size Bison tube is about 3/4" long and 3/8" O.D. They come in various sizes. I believe the "knock off large Bison tubes" that Confucius was talking about are ones like these. Actually, you can get those at just about any drug store. And yes, they work very well. They have an O-ring, and are very durable. While you're there, look for the even smaller nitroglycerine containers like these Edited December 1, 2007 by knowschad Quote Link to comment
+logonwheeler Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Yeah - but have you seen their prices? Quote Link to comment
+EScout Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 How do you get them stamped, and how much does it cost? You can buy a set of metal punches at Harbor Freight or some similar place, a whole set of numbers and letters runs about $10-$15. You then use a hammer and stamp 'em yourself. Yes, that is what you do. They are handy and will last forever. When I was Scoutmaster, I stamped some equipment directly with Troop ID. Other things I made similar tags and attached with cable. Lasts for years. I think 3/16" is the best overall size of character, with 1/8" too small, and 1/4" too big. Quote Link to comment
mrbeachroach Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 How do you get them stamped, and how much does it cost? You can buy a set of metal punches at Harbor Freight or some similar place, a whole set of numbers and letters runs about $10-$15. You then use a hammer and stamp 'em yourself. Yes, that is what you do. They are handy and will last forever. When I was Scoutmaster, I stamped some equipment directly with Troop ID. Other things I made similar tags and attached with cable. Lasts for years. I think 3/16" is the best overall size of character, with 1/8" too small, and 1/4" too big. And you think i can submerge these without rusting, or grime buildup so bad you cant read it? Its fresh water Quote Link to comment
GeoPirates2007 Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Will an ammo can stay water tight? Quote Link to comment
Ferreter5 Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 For a submerged cache at an event I got a waterproof box from a Gander Mountain store (wasn't an Otterbox or Pelican brand, but some other brand I don't recall the name of). Inside that I put a small Lock-n-Lock container. The contents inside the Lock-n-Lock were in a small freezer bag. Triple protection! However, my cache only had to last for the one day of the event. I doubt it would stand up to getting frozen solid in the winter without serious cracking to at least the outer container. Quote Link to comment
+Corp Of Discovery Posted December 2, 2007 Share Posted December 2, 2007 One of these might serve your purpose: Quote Link to comment
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