Prohibited access

[+PopUpPirate]

Posted this on a nice cache today (GCTVWF)

 

Walked via the path from the North East, into the nice piece of Common Land. Didn't know it was common land at the time, but had the clearly marked paths on our maps, so we figured we were doing the right thing. The right turning in the path was sectioned off with poorly assembled red and white striped tape. We could see the game birds in the distance, and continued along the path, bypassing the tape. Well, we decided it was Common Land, and we were entitled to be there. There was no signs saying that we shouldn't have been there, and we guessed it was the bird owner trying to shut off the route to people. Reading logs below it seems that there has been a little bit of stuff with this in the past. Also, the bird enclosure was surrounded by electric fencing that wasn't signed as such, which is illegal. The car battery powering the electric fence was clicking away, but dunno if it was working because the birds were wandering all around it! Maybe they have insulated feet, I pondered!

 

Cache was found in a neat hidey hole, thank you for bringing us here, it is a great bit of public access land, loved it!

 

On the way back we found another sectioned off section of land. We were going to remove all the tape, and take it home with us. Wish we had done now because we would have been entirely within our rights! I've since been on the Hants government website which confirms that Hartley Wood Common is indeed Common Access land, open to the public throughout. As such, this smallholding, and the consequent efforts of the bird owner, is illegally creating boundaries in the area, and ditto for the electric fence. None of the above ire is directed at the cache setter at all, because it was great fun and we'd recommend this to everyone... maybe the next visitors could take down that stupid tape, or report the infringing actions! Hehe!

 

Thanks!

 

Anyone else had landowners, or in this case, non-landowners, preventing a legitimate route?

[+Flackadder]

Nope. Well not while out caching. Happened plenty of times whem I used to go 4x4'ing. Oh!! Them were the days :-)

[+Birdman-of-liskatraz]

I'd check your facts. Lots of Bodmin moor here in Cornwall is Common Land, but farmers have a right to have fences and so on, so the landowner in your case may have been quite justified to fence off pieces of land?

I'm not saying he was in the right - but worth checking before you destroy property etc.

[+Simply Paul]

While caching I've had to climb locked gates and even electric fences erected across properly marked footpaths, without any notices being placed to explain why the way was hampered. It's annoying, but I wouldn't trust my local council to do anything about it so didn't tell the Rights of Way Officer about it. I should have done really, on behalf of people less able to climb gates and fences who might follow me.

[+PopUpPirate]

I'd check your facts. Lots of Bodmin moor here in Cornwall is Common Land, but farmers have a right to have fences and so on, so the landowner in your case may have been quite justified to fence off pieces of land?

I'm not saying he was in the right - but worth checking before you destroy property etc.

 

Good point - I was a bit of a wuss about it, and we pussyfooted around, just in case. If we'd've been confronted by that birdownery chap dunno what we'd've done. Forearmed is forewarned etc etc. Checked it out before posting me log

[Deceangi]

I'd check your facts. Lots of Bodmin moor here in Cornwall is Common Land, but farmers have a right to have fences and so on, so the landowner in your case may have been quite justified to fence off pieces of land?

I'm not saying he was in the right - but worth checking before you destroy property etc.

 

I had a quick look at the area mentioned by the OP. It is in fact CRoW [Open Access] land, meaning that there is a right to roam without the need to stay strictly on the footpaths.

[+kifcog]

When I was 16, a local rugby club raised and locked some gates crossing a field that had been in continuous use for over 20yrs with the assumption that it was a right of way - It was not marked on the definative maps and was therefore not a right of way, however a quick visit to the councils Highways agency and a bit of local research meant that the rugby club stopped locking the gates. (They where fearful that it would be reclassified and that they would never be entitled to close it even for matches)

 

I was cocky at that age, one day my step-father informed me that the police where there stopping people from crossing this particular field - This sounded a bit suspect to me so I whent to have a word. They tried to stop me, but when I explaied that the field was a contested right of way and that by crossing the field I had comitted no offence, but by stopping my lawful progress without good cause they may have, they backed down! I later discovered that they where members of the club and that they where abusing their power.

 

You are entitled to take any REASONABLE action to clear any obstruction from a right of way, this could mean removing barbed wire fences etc. A landowner IS entitled to put up fences/wall etc, however they must make provision for you too pass the obstuction with a gate or stile.

 

Just remebered, you must beware of a path bieng a permissive path, this is a path that is not technically a right of way, but one that a landowner has permitted (or more usually just not restricted) access accross. The landowner may stop access to this path which would then put the access in dispute. The path accross the rugby field was apermissive path.

 

Only the local council or police can close a public right of way, and even then only with good cause. If a landowner wishes to move a PROW they must provide an alternative, and even then this may be rejected.

 

If you feel the need to remove an obstruction, MAKE SURE, you are in the right place. The existence of a PROW on a OS map does not necessarily mean that it exists. Only the definative maps held by a local council are accurate, these are viewable on request (Some are available online)

 

I would suggest that if you ever encounter an obstruction, that you pass it causing as little damage as possible, then report it too the local council, many have teams that walk the paths inspecting them to make sure that all is OK. (I do this in Essex, which is why I have a little knowledge on this matter)

 

If you encounter a landowner who believes you have no right to be on their land the best thing is to remain calm and to show them any maps you may be carrying asking for the location of the path you believe you are on. You cannot be prosecuted for trespass if no ill intent exists (ie if you make a navagational error) Also a landowner cannot ask you to turn back, but must direct you too the nearest exit from thier land. A landowner can NEVER remove you forcibly or threaten you if you fail to comply, if they do I would suggest calling the police!

 

A farmer may grow crops on his land but they should clear any path of crops. They should also clearly mark the beginning and end of the path, if they do not, they cannot object to you tramping all through his crop looking for a footpath that they have failed to mark.

 

Public footpath signs shouls also be in good repair. Signs should not be removed, or allowed to become covered in foliage.

 

They laws have changed slightly with the new "right to roam" legislation, however most of these laws apply to wild or open country. Scotlands laws are completely different and a bit of a mystery, this is why most scottish maps have virtually no rights of way printed on them.

Edited August 21, 2007 by kifcog

[nobby.nobbs]

The only thing I would add to the above is that any person willing to block footpaths or in any way confront people who are legally walking is probably not too worried about whether they physically get you off their land.

 

It's all well and good being in the right but is it worth having a fight for? Back down and deal with it via the police or council.

[Lactodorum]

<snip>You are entitled to take any REASONABLE action to clear any obstruction from a right of way, this could mean removing barbed wire fences etc. A landowner IS entitled to put up fences/wall etc, however they must make provision for you too pass the obstuction with a gate or stile.<snip> etc...........

Thank you kifcog for a very useful summary of the regulations

[+Dizzley]

How easy is it to see which land is CRoW land? Where should I look? Any Resources?

 

Have I just rediscovered my keyboard's quetion mark?

[+HazelS]

I once encountered a footpath obscured by shoulderhigh crops, and returned to the car happy with a DNF.

When I got the the car, there was another car parked next to it, and the occupier came out to chat to me. He explained that he was a Rights of way Officer from the council, and welcomed anyone to contact him regarding any paths which are obscured by crops, or footpaths blocked, or across fields with bulls in etc...

 

He also stated that most council's have a Right of Way officer, or something similar, so you could try contacting them!

[+rutson]

Some info from the RA here.

[+Chaotica_UK]

I was on a footpath recently where a gate had been chained shut and covered in barbed wire. The other side of the gate there was an electric fence and a some very large horses cantering around. Needless to say I didnt go any further but I did contact the Ramblers Association and completed an online report from their website. Three months later the gate was clear and the path reopened again.

[+L8HNB]

We had an unfortunate run-in with a Water Bailiff on the river Wye, in Herefordshire, just after we had started caching. He bawled at us from across the river to get onto the footpath, even though we were no more than two yards from it while looking for a micro for the first phase of a multi. We were then confronted by him again at a cache just up the road.

 

We posted this, after the confrontation:

 

Please note when doing this cache you MUST walk directly from the church, diagonally, across the field to the gate by the river. (Apologies for being so specific but we had a BIG disagreement with the Water Baliff who, presumably, works for the farmer mentioned in the notes - we walked around the edge of the field - big mistake).

 

There were some warnings in the notes for the cache initally and the cache owner amended them to include our comments, fortunatly there have been no other incidents logged for the second cache, the first one was archived.

 

Lin and I are both from farming families, so see things from both sides, but it seems that sometimes you just can't win!

 

L&H

[+DTJM]

Quote PopUpPirate

I've since been on the Hants government website which confirms that Hartley Wood Common is indeed Common Access land, open to the public throughout. As such, this smallholding, and the consequent efforts of the bird owner, is illegally creating boundaries in the area, and ditto for the electric fence. None of the above ire is directed at the cache setter at all, because it was great fun and we'd recommend this to everyone... maybe the next visitors could take down that stupid tape, or report the infringing actions! Hehe!

----

We came across the owner of the smallholding/bird enclosure whilst doing the cache that you refer to. He told us we were on private land and was carrying a gun. He was very intimidating and we won't be going back.

We too found out that the land was common access but that access could be restricted if there was clear notices at all the entrances. This certainly wasn't the case when we visited.

Edited August 21, 2007 by DTJM

[+Lost in Space]

We had an unfortunate run-in with a Water Bailiff on the river Wye, in Herefordshire......

 

Are you sure this irascible person was not a "reviewer" ?

[Lactodorum]

We had an unfortunate run-in with a Water Bailiff on the river Wye, in Herefordshire......

 

Are you sure this irascible person was not a "reviewer" ?

Water Bailiff? Is that another name for a Bar Steward? I've been called that before now (or at least I think that's what it was )

[+Lost in Space]

We had an unfortunate run-in with a Water Bailiff on the river Wye, in Herefordshire......

 

Are you sure this irascible person was not a "reviewer" ?

Water Bailiff? Is that another name for a Bar Steward? I've been called that before now (or at least I think that's what it was )

 

I've told you before, "Switch it on!!"

[+Renegade Knight]

Here in Idaho, some ranchers will close off public roads and post them "No Trespassing". It keeps out the riff raff and makes their lives easier. They just happen to be blocking off legal access and unless you knew it was a public access you would be stuck.

 

Never bumped into it, but I've been warned by locals on some routes I was considering about problems they have had.

 

I've also found two trail heads that both go to the same trail one of which is posted and one of which isn't. Never did figure that out.

[+spannerman]

A landowner IS entitled to put up fences/wall etc, however they must make provision for you too pass the obstuction with a gate or stile.

 

While caching on Bodmin Moor a few months ago I was walking along a path I had walked before and as I approached a gateway, there were a couple of chaps who had removed the gate and were putting barbed wire across the entrance. I had a chat with them and they told me there was another gate just up the line so off I went to find it. Three quarters of a mile later I found the gate then had to backtrack to the original pathway.

It seems to me that while this particular farmer is keeping within the rules, he has found a way of deterring walkers from "his" part of the moor.

 

I reported the incident to the RoW officer and also spoke to him at the County Show and it seems this was not an isolated incident in the area at the time.

 

I also noticed a warning sign at the entrance to a field a couple of weeks ago which certainly gets the message across. It read: Trespassers will be shot....Survivors will be shot again! I'm sure there was an element of humour in that sign though, and it made me smile.

[+macroderma]

Some info from the RA here.

 

This seems to be definitive-at least in England

[+kifcog]

Hi All,

 

A a man (or woman) approaching you aggressively with a gun could legally be commiting the offence of assault with a deadly weapon - They do not need to shoot you, just put you in the position where you percive that you might be shot!

 

The landowner would have to prove that he was carrying the weapon as part of his duties in an area that he was entitles to for example, a landowner would not be allowed to step onto a public byway with an uncovered weapon to speak to you (Into a road laybay for example)

 

There is a legal limit for approaching a highway (Any path or road that is) with a weapon (this includes air rifles for all you people who own them) I believe that it is 50yrds but i'm not 100% sure.

 

If an aggressive landowner was to approach me with a gun I would immediately phone the police (I would probable do it from my mobile right in front of the landowner to make clear what I was doing) I would also try to get a photogroaph to demonstrate the mannor in which I was approached.

 

It sounds as if this bloke knows he's in the wrong and is trying to intimidate people off his land, he needs to be reported. I repeat my advace from above, only the police and the highways agency can close footpaths, if they do then it would be clearly signposted with diversions

 

Very few people have the right to carry guns in the UK and they should never be carried openly on a public byway. (Just as a by the way, you may carry a bow and arrow on a public road for some bizarre reason, providing that it is unsrung)

 

PS - Which cache is it on Bodmin -I might make a long trip to have a look myself - If it's in cornwal they have an excellent higways reporting tool on line that might be worth a look.

[+martlakes]

How easy is it to see which land is CRoW land? Where should I look? Any Resources?

 

If you buy new 1:25,000 OS maps the CROW areas are shaded in pale orange.

 

You can also look online at Access which provides maps of the whole country showing CROW land. It also lists any local restrictions that exist eg, ban on dogs for grouse shooting, and explains your rights and general restrictions that apply to all CROW land, eg you can picnic or climb but not camp.

 

It's worth noting that CROW land does not affect existing ROW, so although dogs may be banned from the CROW land you can still take them on a footpath or bridleway, as long as they are under close control (they do not have to be on leads).

 

I've heard from a Nat Park Ranger that there may be moves afoot to change the status of ROW in a few years so they are amalgamated with CROW areas, so they are doing quite a lot of work on establishing the exact line of paths and things, but I don't know the details of what may be in the wind.

 

HTH

[+PopUpPirate]

Think I might notify the local county of the issue at the Noahs Ark cache, and try and progress matters. Interesting post from DTJM!