Is it ok to drill?

[+SCBrian]

I spray painted my ammo box and left it in the woods, but with this thread now I'm worried about the CFC's in the spray paint causing harm to the tree it is beside...

 

Knight2000, congratulations on reaching you 1000th post, and in only 3 months as well.

At first you were upset in the CCC thread that someone should take a piece of what looked like driftwood, and drill a hole into it. Now, it seems OK?

 

If i cache is embedded in a hole drilled in a dead tree and the placer had permission- who am i to say something about it? If its not hurting anything, let it be i guess.

 

If a cache container is made/crafted by drilling i am sure it is fine. I do think when that drilling/digging whatever goes on site that is a different matter.

 

Your were also upset that the hider had OH MY GOD!!! MARKED (GASP) the piece of driftwood with geocaching.com. Dude, From what I read the intent of the rule you keep referring was made to stop people from digging and burying caches. Do I think someone should drill a 2 inch hole in a telephone pole? No. but for goodness sake, at what point does common sense come into play?

[+Knight2000]

At first you were upset in the CCC thread that someone should take a piece of what looked like driftwood, and drill a hole into it. Now, it seems OK?

 

If i cache is embedded in a hole drilled in a dead tree and the placer had permission- who am i to say something about it? If its not hurting anything, let it be i guess.

 

If a cache container is made/crafted by drilling i am sure it is fine. I do think when that drilling/digging whatever goes on site that is a different matter.

 

Your were also upset that the hider had OH MY GOD!!! MARKED (GASP) the piece of driftwood with geocaching.com.

Maybe you should read posts more carefully. I said that i did not have a problem with it but some might. So i dont see how i changed. You can go back and read them if you like.

 

I am sorry that it bothers you that i don't like graffiti. I don't like garbage in the woods either, but that is just me.

 

I just stated how i didn't care for it. I don't know how what i think affects you much though.

 

As far as posts- who is counting? I hadn't noticed. Does it matter either way?

[+Thrak]

Rant forthcoming, be prepared to get your dander up.

 

Will wonders never cease.

 

When I have witnessed, and helped, the BLM, USFS, State department of forestry in girdling trees one year and then coming back the next year and boring 2 and 3 inch holes for the critters to start their nest in. Where they have went through and blown the tops out of trees with explosives to make more snags. Where part of a timber sale contract is that the logger has to make snags. These type of events happens all the time out here. Yes, there are already plenty of natural snags and holes but the eco freaks want "more."

 

Now I have to worry about a film can sized hole in a dead tree? BS.

 

As I see it, common sense has taken a big hit in this game. Period.

 

So when I take a chain saw and bore a hole for an ammo box in a snag, that would be a bad thing? How about using a single jack to make a hole in a rock? How about driving concrete nails into rock to hang a tag with? What about using a piece of wire to attach a tag to a tree limb? Plastic box in the puckerbrush?

 

Now that your all up in arms, lets take another look at things.

 

The idiots have broken free from their pen and are running rampant over the world. PO.(personal opinion.) Anyone who can not tell a dead tree from a live one needs caught and put back into a padded cell somewhere. PO.

 

I have a location picked out in an old cold deck for placing the cache in a bored out hole. Old bridge logs in fact and there are already plenty of holes - bolts - notches in them but none the size I want.

 

90 percent of you don't even know what a single jack is or what they where used for so that is a mute statement / question. The location I will be using is in an old rock pit where there are plenty of oversized rock that where going to be used as riprap but never hauled out. If I can find a bore hole, okay but I will make one if not. The same goes for the nails into the rock. Old rock pit so no harm done to anything "pristine" to get people up in arms over the vandalism of a rock with placing a 1/4 inch hole in it.

 

The wire on a tree limb can grow into the limb causing a possible wound so if you know of any, you had better report it to GC.com and have the cache archived.

 

How many of you have seen where critters have chewed plastic cache containers? Did you ever think maybe they swallowed some of it, got a intestinal obstruction and died from it?

 

Ravens love shiny things so those firetacks you use could attract them. They could possible maybe sorta kinda pluck one out and swallow it and get a hole in a gut somewhere and give them an infection, it could kinda sorta maybe rust and cause an infection or even - heaven forbid - get stuck as they are trying to pass it. Better report any firetacks you see as well.

 

Lets see now, where can we go from here.

 

I know, your driving. You could hurt me on your way to a cache as you get distracted looking at the gpsr, cache sheet, looking for a road sign, etc, and forget your primary job of driving so please stop driving and save me the pain. And the buzz phrase this year seems to be "carbon footprint" so as your driving around realize your leaving one and are personally responsible for global warming. For shame, for shame. Go plant a tree and get that warm fuzzy feeling of being environmentally aware.

 

I am tired of this playing the "What about if...." game so lets put an end to it.

 

IF IT DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT AND YOU HAVE TO ASK SOMEONE IF IT WOULD BE OK, DON'T DO IT!!!

 

Get your head out of your backside and use some common sense people.

 

On the flip side of the coin I will say that no matter what is said in here, it is still going to happen out there so the best YOU can do is look out after yourself and yours. Let the others thin out the gene pool.

 

logscaler.

 

YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!

 

Here's to you logscaler................

[+SCBrian]

Maybe you should read posts more carefully. I said that i did not have a problem with it but some might. So i dont see how i changed. You can go back and read them if you like.

 

I am sorry that it bothers you that i don't like graffiti. I don't like garbage in the woods either, but that is just me.

 

I just stated how i didn't care for it. I don't know how what i think affects you much though.

 

As far as posts- who is counting? I hadn't noticed. Does it matter either way?

 

The comment that started this whole mess....

Some people may have a problem with that. You used a pointy object to place the cache. As long as the item being drilled/altered isnt permanent to the area or from there- i guess it is a grey area.

 

The only problem i can see if it is in a park or something and the land manager think that you damaged their property placing the cache.

 

I will be interested to see what others think of this.

 

Personally i dont like the writing on the wood. Looks like ugly graffiti to me.

 

I suppose those darn trail markers nailed to trees count as graffiti and trash as well .

 

You came across as not liking his hide because he "drilled" a dead branch. I mean really. I could understand if he took a brick from an archaeological dig and drilled, or even if he took a power drill and placed bison tubes in every bridge in the park, but a dead piece of wood! really?!? At what point do we stop legislating things so those on the bottom of the gene pool survive?

 

I propose a new clarification. Since there should be no pointy objects in geocaching, lets remove all pens and pencils from caches. I mean I did use a pencil to sign and 'find' the log. Pencils can be dangerous. Hmm. This also removes some coins, TB, and others. And some Garmin GPS, shouldn't be used either, that antenna is almost pointy.

 

As for the post count comment, ignore it. I was ranting, and on a roll...

 

I just can't believe all the topics in the forum have been exhausted and now we have to argue on what CCC's are legal.

 

.

[+Knight2000]

Although that comment got some people worked up, i do not beleive that it was the first comment like that in the long thread. I remember seeing one similar before.

 

I said some may have a problem. And this is true, some may. Please refer to comment 1791 where is said:

Like i said before, i dont have a problem with it. But, it is an area where i think caution should be used.

 

If you think words scrawled on wood is the same as a trail marker then fine.

 

I stated my opinion and for some reason it bothered you. I dont know why that is so. To me, it is kind of messy looking. If it was neat, maybe i would feel differently. Besides, why was it even necessary (writing on the wood)?

 

My main issue as i have stated and i dont think some are understanding is that a land manager/park system, whatever, may not like if you come to their location and take their items and drill holes in them. Just like they dont like people disturbing certain areas.

 

Thats all. I think caution and some common sense should apply. Not everyone really has common sense or cares though.

 

I don't want something you do (meaning anyone, not just you) to affect everyone else in the community. Although unlikely what if a major park system came across something they didn't care for and banned all the caches in their parks? It is possible. Maybe not probable, but certainly possible.

 

My intention was only to discuss and throw out ideas. Not to argue or upset others. All situations are different. All people view the rules differently. Lets just keep this positive for caching.

[+SCBrian]

Although that comment got some people worked up, i do not beleive that it was the first comment like that in the long thread. I remember seeing one similar before.

 

I said some may have a problem. And this is true, some may. Please refer to comment 1791 where is said:

Like i said before, i dont have a problem with it. But, it is an area where i think caution should be used.

 

True, however you did 'kick the hornets nest' as it were..

 

 

If you think words scrawled on wood is the same as a trail marker then fine.

 

I stated my opinion and for some reason it bothered you. I dont know why that is so. To me, it is kind of messy looking. If it was neat, maybe i would feel differently. Besides, why was it even necessary (writing on the wood)?

 

My guess is that the owner wanted to identify it as a geocache.

per:

Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types...... . To reduce confusion and alarm when a cache is discovered accidentally, clearly label your container on the outside with appropriate information to say it is a geocache....

 

Now in this case, granted his container was a dead stick, but it was marked on the underside where only geocachers or accidental muggles would see it.

 

My main issue as i have stated and i dont think some are understanding is that a land manager/park system, whatever, may not like if you come to their location and take their items and drill holes in them. Just like they dont like people disturbing certain areas.

 

And most state parks list dead wood as fire wood and fair game. In the words of a park ranger on a recent camping trip. If it's on the ground (Meaning dead) it's all yours...

The poster never said if it was to be placed at a parksystem, or maybe on his own private property...

 

Thats all. I think caution and some common sense should apply. Not everyone really has common sense or cares though.

And that's why I get upset with these type of posts. We always lower the rules to fit the lowest common denominator.

If we follow this type of trend pretty soon we'll only be allowed to hide caches that are premade. On Tuesdays. In May. And only seek on Saturdays. Between the hours.... well you get it...

One of the best caches I've done was built on site. Within 100 ffeet of muggles. No one noticed as it was built, and this cache has been raved about forever, and by all who find it. Bringing up rules like no drills, etc. will stiffle this type of creativity.

 

Anyways, I'll post more later. The wife wants her "equal time" on the computer...

[vtmtnman]

One of the best caches I've done was built on site. Within 100 ffeet of muggles. No one noticed as it was built, and this cache has been raved about forever, and by all who find it. Bringing up rules like no drills, etc. will stiffle this type of creativity.

Linky?

 

Also,my intent for this thread was general disscussion,not to drag knight out in the town square,with torches lit and pitchforks at the ready.He's correct,as I've read the thread in it's entirety,and as with any forum thread none could survive that long without any angst in it.

 

Also,why does it matter if he reaches 1000 posts in three months?Perhaphs he's got alot to share?Is that something that's frowned upon in forum circles?I'm relatively new to internet forums(But not GC.com...username change).

[+Logscaler and Red]

Since not everyone has common sense if a cache violates guidelines and in some way could cause harm to the sport, then i think it is all cachers responsibility to say something. If you dont want to, thats cool too.

 

Just how many people do you think actually sit down and read all those flipping nitpicking PITA rules/guidelines anyway? Did you?

 

It reminds me of a cache i saw that had clearly marked no trespassing signs. Dozens and dozens visited and even wrote about the signs in their logs. If someone was ticketed (which the sign said was possible as it was city property) then that would reflect bad on geocaching. (At least in that city.)

 

My thoughts on this is - buy your ticket and take your ride. Or get out of line and let someone else in who is a little more adventuresome. THEY understand what COULD happen and are willing to risk it. Their lookout, not yours.

 

If a cache is buried in a park, I think someone should say something.

 

Now that is a blanket answer to cover every park. I happen to know of several parks where it would have been ok to bury something but we as a group have decided against it on the basic principle that there is a known error in this game of around 30 feet, give or take the time of day, satellite coverage, reception, etc. Can you think of the horror of trying to find a buried cache in a 30 foot radius if everything was perfect, let alone the with the error factors possible? Plant a crop in the spring and get your winter supply of greens.

 

If i cache is embedded in a hole drilled in a dead tree and the placer had permission- who am i to say something about it? If its not hurting anything, let it be i guess.

 

Pray tell, how do you know it the cacher has permission or not? Need a contact number for the Park Ranger engraved on the cache? At this rate, a EA would be needed for any cache placement to make sure the cache is not killing off some stupid moss or lichen or ant or frog or grub or or or, well you get the idea. Let alone the hike into the cache.

 

If a cache container is made/crafted by drilling i am sure it is fine. I do think when that drilling/digging whatever goes on site that is a different matter.

 

Another blanket tossed out on a general principal. That CCC thread has given me some great ideas to steal. Now, with that blanket thrown over the parks and by extension, any BLM, USFS, State Forest lands, etc, those ideas are out the window.

 

Let's throw the ball back at you and play another what if game. It will be a soft nerf ball type as I understand that Dodge Ball is too harsh and causes bruises on the ego as well as the skin.

 

What if I find a micro cache under oh I don't know, maybe a street light skirt, heaven forbid seeing as they are ALL either on public property or Private property, should I request it to be archived seeing as I don't find a permission slip from the property owner or manger attached to the cache page or in the cache itself? Because I would bet that technically, when you go onto WalMarts parking lot and have no intention to shop, your guilty of trespassing. (I should state that I am no lawyer but I did play one one time in a nightmare that I had.) And when you find one on a public street light - If you would I should say - could that not be construed as damaging public property? When you moved it, you scuffed the paint didn't you? Now your going to have to pay to have all the street lights repainted. We can't have just one with new paint, know can we? It would stick out and be an eyesore but if their all painted the same.......

 

Know don't go an be getting all upset and get your knickers in a knot and think I am picking you out to harass. Far from it but this topic and several others have pushed a few buttons and I have to vent when I think people are trying to blow smoke up my backside. I have habit of popping off once and a while (Side bar Judge - Hi Jon, sorry about the rant but it happens once and a while. You know me and "Devils club".) and it has been known to get me into trouble with TPTB.

 

I am not one to be PC and will say what I think, when I think it needs to be said. If some people have a problem with that, well you can just about guess what I think about that problem. Yours, not mine.

 

On a parting shot, Get over it people. You can not control everyone all the time no matter what "rules / guidelines" you want to impose on them. Anyone so arrogant who thinks that with enough "understanding - compassion - love - money - etc" that ALL the worlds troubles can be solved needs to check into a rubber room and get off MY planet.

 

Logscaler.

 

(Do people still get put into a time out on this site????)

[+Knight2000]

Just how many people do you think actually sit down and read all those flipping nitpicking PITA rules/guidelines anyway? Did you?

I think many read them, but not all. Since i have placed caches i did read them. If you dont then you pretty much are lying when you check that box.

My thoughts on this is - buy your ticket and take your ride. Or get out of line and let someone else in who is a little more adventuresome. THEY understand what COULD happen and are willing to risk it. Their lookout, not yours.

True. But if LEO or media happened to pick up on why they were there or what they were doing then it would reflect badly on all of us. Maybe people would think we all don't follow the laws? Honestly i would hate to be associated with a group of people known to violate laws and make their own rules.

 

Considering stuff i have read on the forums from reviewers, under no circumstances should a cache be buried. So yeah- that is a blanket statement.

Pray tell, how do you know it the cacher has permission or not? Need a contact number for the Park Ranger engraved on the cache? At this rate, a EA would be needed for any cache placement to make sure the cache is not killing off some stupid moss or lichen or ant or frog or grub or or or, well you get the idea. Let alone the hike into the cache.

How would i know about a cache placement? If it seemed to be a placement that i felt in some way could endanger the activity- i would probably ask them about it.

 

I would like to think that all people have common sense and read/follow guidelines but you made it sound like some don't. I'm pretty sure some don't. Its just too easy to check the box and forget it. Guidelines are in place for a reason. Some may not agree. But i understand why they are there. Whether you agree or disagree with them how we all conduct ourselves- reflects on everyone- just not usually on a large scale.

[CoyoteRed]

Wow, a lot of heat over such a simple concept.

 

The question is "is it okay to drill a dead tree?" This is really a sub-question of "can I put my hiding spot back in the same general condition as I found it if I remove the cache?" (Here I go with simple tests again.)

 

Before anyone goes off the deep end with "is every leaf back in its spot?" Do us a favor a save it. You know, use the "common sense" thing?

 

I think the answer to the OP question is fairly obvious considering you can't un-drill a hole. Do I personally think this extends to nail, screw, or tack holes? No. Of course, you should do nothing that would cause damage to spread like nailing non-compatible nails into live trees. Poking anything into any durable surface that is attached to the property should be with permission. One should also consider the visibility of the hole.

 

If it ever comes to modifying a downed tree or piece of wood on someone's property you have to ask if it would be legal to simply take that object. If it is, then I'd think it's fair game to drill.

 

So maybe before you ask yourself if you can put the hiding spot back like you found you should ask if you can legally take possession of the object you plan to modify. I'd say if you can honestly answer the appropriate question in the affirmative then you're good to go. Otherwise, you're not.

 

BTW, one of the coolest hides I've seen in an old chunk of large log, but small enough to be flipped by an adult, was hollowed out underneath to accommodate an ammo can. At least cacher logged he had actually sat on the log to decrypt the hint.

[+briansnat]

Just how many people do you think actually sit down and read all those flipping nitpicking PITA rules/guidelines anyway? Did you?

I think many read them, but not all. Since i have placed caches i did read them. If you dont then you pretty much are lying when you check that box.

My thoughts on this is - buy your ticket and take your ride. Or get out of line and let someone else in who is a little more adventuresome. THEY understand what COULD happen and are willing to risk it. Their lookout, not yours.

True. But if LEO or media happened to pick up on why they were there or what they were doing then it would reflect badly on all of us. Maybe people would think we all don't follow the laws? Honestly i would hate to be associated with a group of people known to violate laws and make their own rules.

 

Considering stuff i have read on the forums from reviewers, under no circumstances should a cache be buried. So yeah- that is a blanket statement.

Pray tell, how do you know it the cacher has permission or not? Need a contact number for the Park Ranger engraved on the cache? At this rate, a EA would be needed for any cache placement to make sure the cache is not killing off some stupid moss or lichen or ant or frog or grub or or or, well you get the idea. Let alone the hike into the cache.

How would i know about a cache placement? If it seemed to be a placement that i felt in some way could endanger the activity- i would probably ask them about it.

 

I would like to think that all people have common sense and read/follow guidelines but you made it sound like some don't. I'm pretty sure some don't. Its just too easy to check the box and forget it. Guidelines are in place for a reason. Some may not agree. But i understand why they are there. Whether you agree or disagree with them how we all conduct ourselves- reflects on everyone- just not usually on a large scale.

 

Good answers. You saved me some time.

[+sbell111]

Good answers. You saved me some time.

[+briansnat]

Good answers. You saved me some time.

[vtmtnman]

Good answers. You saved me some time.

[+sbell111]

Good answers. You saved me some time.

[+Logscaler and Red]

Just how many people do you think actually sit down and read all those flipping nitpicking PITA rules/guidelines anyway? Did you?

I think many read them, but not all. Since i have placed caches i did read them. If you dont then you pretty much are lying when you check that box.

My thoughts on this is - buy your ticket and take your ride. Or get out of line and let someone else in who is a little more adventuresome. THEY understand what COULD happen and are willing to risk it. Their lookout, not yours.

True. But if LEO or media happened to pick up on why they were there or what they were doing then it would reflect badly on all of us. Maybe people would think we all don't follow the laws? Honestly i would hate to be associated with a group of people known to violate laws and make their own rules.

 

Considering stuff i have read on the forums from reviewers, under no circumstances should a cache be buried. So yeah- that is a blanket statement.

Pray tell, how do you know it the cacher has permission or not? Need a contact number for the Park Ranger engraved on the cache? At this rate, a EA would be needed for any cache placement to make sure the cache is not killing off some stupid moss or lichen or ant or frog or grub or or or, well you get the idea. Let alone the hike into the cache.

How would i know about a cache placement? If it seemed to be a placement that i felt in some way could endanger the activity- i would probably ask them about it.

 

I would like to think that all people have common sense and read/follow guidelines but you made it sound like some don't. I'm pretty sure some don't. Its just too easy to check the box and forget it. Guidelines are in place for a reason. Some may not agree. But i understand why they are there. Whether you agree or disagree with them how we all conduct ourselves- reflects on everyone- just not usually on a large scale.

 

Thanks for the well thought out answers and they all make sense.

 

Playing "Devils advocate" at times makes for some interesting responses.

 

Yes, I have and do read the guideline's. As I remember it, the no burying things was decided on by cachers before that rule was put into the guidelines. I agree with it as well for several reasons.

 

I know some people don't read and or follow the guidelines. It shows.

 

Yes, Even I have reported caches I know that violate the guidelines and will in the future.

 

I also try and put the best effort into PR for the group as a whole even if it goes against the grain of a few cachers but there is a limit to how many restrictions I will agree to. (And it is getting closer to that limit all the time.)

 

Geocaching and cachers reputation's will/have start(ed) proceeding them through media coverage and word of mouth and it behooves all of us to use our best manners if we want access to a lot of grounds. Public and private lands.

 

I still think that this game is getting too PC and restricted in its actions and response's to minor incidents. Kinda like killing a fly with a 12 gauge. It is getting the job done but at what cost?

 

Logscaler.

[+Thrak]

I think the real secret here is "Take care of yourself and don't try to police others". Follow your own set of ethics and don't waste your time trying to convince other people to adhere to what you think. Be true to yourself and that's about the best you are going to get in this situation.

 

I say if the dadgum tree is dead then you aren't hurting squat. I found a cache where a moderate-sized piece of bark was carefully removed from a dead tree. 4 magnets were affixed to the back of the bark and 4 large-headed nails were put into the tree where they would align with the magnets. A small hole was drilled into the tree and a little tube inserted into the hole with the log inside it. When the bark was replaced there was absolutely no way to tell anything had been done to the tree.

 

The tree has been dead for a very long time and is located about 30 feet off of a trail up in the hills. It's in a park but we have the third largest city park in the US and this part of the park is all wild land with a few trails through it. Nobody cares if the tree was drilled. The cache is really tough to find and those who have found it like it a lot. Nobody other than geocachers even go near the tree. There's no reason to do so unless you're following a little arrow.

[+SCBrian]

 

Also,why does it matter if he reaches 1000 posts in three months?Perhaphs he's got alot to share?Is that something that's frowned upon in forum circles?I'm relatively new to internet forums(But not GC.com...username change).

 

 

Again, I was on a rant... and I was probably jealous as well, he obviously gets more computer time than I do..

 

 

I also try and put the best effort into PR for the group as a whole even if it goes against the grain of a few cachers but there is a limit to how many restrictions I will agree to. (And it is getting closer to that limit all the time.)

...

I still think that this game is getting too PC and restricted in its actions and response's to minor incidents. Kinda like killing a fly with a 12 gauge. It is getting the job done but at what cost?

 

Logscaler.

 

This is the point I was so ineloquently trying to make.

The hider drilled a hole in a dead piece of wood for a film can. Other than the fact it's a micro , I can' t see why anyone would question or complain, for goodness sake, It's dead. The cacher never said where he was going to place it, where he got the wood from, (perhaps he bought the wood?). If someone can point out the difference to me on this cache and one built out of say 2x4 lumber, I'll surrender my stance. Until then I think the folks out there questioning this hide are just as bad as the folks who have made sure there are direction on soda cans...