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"Liar Caches"

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Ohhh... Thank you for explaining that! Somehow, with all the other dramas swirling around this cache and the related issues, I totally missed that, and had thought that perhaps there was a growing feud between MN and MI cachers over the fact that MI cache hiders were wantonly assassinating MN cachers. Thanks for explaining it -- I appreciate your assistance! :) ...
WI, not MI. Michigan geocachiers would never feud over such a silly matter. Those Wisconsiners (Wisconsinians?) are firebrands.

:P:laughing:;):) Sorry for my error; you are right, it was WI cache owner! :P

Edited by Vinny & Sue Team

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:P:):laughing:;) Sorry for my error; you are right, it was WI cachers! :)

 

^ what he said ^ :P

Edited by Pto

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hey, we have a cache near us that sort of became a liar's cache inadvertantly. it's a really fabulous multi of an undisclosed number of stages. since we couldn't write about the actual experience of finding it, we lied about everything in our logs.

 

here's my log for it; almost everything is a lie, including the misreporting of who was there and it wasn't my 1200th cache, either.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...4d-e822335aaefd

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neither the cache owners nor anyone else ever told me that the caches in question were tall tale caches. Rather, I figured it out myself.

Vinny = Non gullible.

_______ (<~~insert name) = gullible.

So much drama makes my hair hurt & my teeth itch. :)

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OK, i have been sitting on my hands waiting to get off work for the last two days so i can say my piece in this whole thing!

 

I'm one of the WI Cachers who came out to the Dells out of my OWN time to see MN find the Gauntlet, I'm also good friends with LO. I spent will over 200 dollars on that weekend and spent close to 300dollars on a pervious weekend in July to complete the Cache in Question ALSO My Dad Rode his motorcycle well over 500+ miles from Ohio to do this cache with has spent quite a bit of money himself..

I can understand about the spending of money but CammoCacher, and Red Devil(Sorry not quite sure of the name) You have over reacted and still are overreacting

I was pissed off too at first but then i got over it in all over 10minutes of finding the cache! and i was a helluva lot more embrasse about it because i had gotten a group of over 20 people (5-8 of them are veterns of this cache) I still had fun, once i was over it i laughed at myself and got over it!

 

When i met all of you that night before I thought you were all very nice, and good people. But the way you have acting is starting to make me think differently, and i don't want to think of you as mean people! I'm sorry you have feel this way about the whole thing, but i wish you could leave LO alone, and just drop the whole issue. Listen to the rest of MN cachers on your own Forums and take their advice, this has gone on too long, Drop it please...

 

I hope this creates no hard feelings, I don't want to upset anyone futher but this has gone on long enough! and it needs to stop!

 

Coastiegirl04

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OK, i have been sitting on my hands waiting to get off work for the last two days so i can say my piece in this whole thing!

 

I'm one of the WI Cachers who came out to the Dells out of my OWN time to see MN find the Gauntlet, I'm also good friends with LO. I spent will over 200 dollars on that weekend and spent close to 300dollars on a pervious weekend in July to complete the Cache in Question ALSO My Dad Rode his motorcycle well over 500+ miles from Ohio to do this cache with has spent quite a bit of money himself..

I can understand about the spending of money but CammoCacher, and Red Devil(Sorry not quite sure of the name) You have over reacted and still are overreacting

I was pissed off too at first but then i got over it in all over 10minutes of finding the cache! and i was a helluva lot more embrasse about it because i had gotten a group of over 20 people (5-8 of them are veterns of this cache) I still had fun, once i was over it i laughed at myself and got over it!

 

When i met all of you that night before I thought you were all very nice, and good people. But the way you have acting is starting to make me think differently, and i don't want to think of you as mean people! I'm sorry you have feel this way about the whole thing, but i wish you could leave LO alone, and just drop the whole issue. Listen to the rest of MN cachers on your own Forums and take their advice, this has gone on too long, Drop it please...

 

I hope this creates no hard feelings, I don't want to upset anyone futher but this has gone on long enough! and it needs to stop!

 

Coastiegirl04

 

I'm sorry I am not you and hold nothing against you or any of the other cachers that were there but even you admited you were pissed off about the truth in the beginning so then you can see how others might be too. Which indicates to me that you also did not know when you departed for your journey that this was a liar's cache - is that correct?

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I have read this whole thread; keeping up with the who-saids and said-whats makes my head hurt.

 

Can we summarize the whole thread? De-personalize it?

 

I get six things out of all this:

 

1. Liars caches can be fun for hiders and finders.

2. Some folks won't like them.

3. Some folks don't read cache pages and won't know it's a liars cache until they find it.

4. Folks who don't like certain types of caches should read the cache page first.

5. Folks who are preparing a special effort to go after a specific cache should contact the owner.

6. The owner should describe the hunt experience honestly when asked.

 

Does that about cover it?

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As far as I am concerned only 2 of the listings apply:

 

6. The owner should describe the hunt experience honestly when asked or even when not asked if a group is making a special trip

 

7. All caches should be rated appropriately.

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You missed:

All caches should be rated appropriately.

 

Didn't miss it, just don't agree! :)

 

Liars caches are almost always over or under rated, that's part of the surprise.

 

I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.

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You missed:

All caches should be rated appropriately.

 

Didn't miss it, just don't agree! :)

 

Liars caches are almost always over or under rated, that's part of the surprise.

 

I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.

You asked if 'we' could summarize the thread. I didn't realize that you just wanted the rest of us to hold your notes. :laughing:

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I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.
Your post reminded me of two things. First, is all the whiners who insist on getting some way to easily sort out caches that they don't like. Second, are all the cachers who state that they only really enjoy caches that take them on a hike and challenge them.

 

I don't believe that cachers who participate for the physical challenge of it would appreciate finding 1/1 a liar's cache in a grubby lot. I also don't believe that any good can be done by conditioning cachers to believe that caches with high terrain ratings probably are just over-rated.

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:);):):P Sorry for my error; you are right, it was WI cachers! :P

 

Um, thats WI cache Owner, MN cachers. . . :):laughing:

Yep -- I knew that, but I was typing too fast, on my way outside to feed our chickens and geese! I have corrected my original post, above, to read "cache owner" :)

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You missed:

All caches should be rated appropriately.

 

Didn't miss it, just don't agree! :)

 

Liars caches are almost always over or under rated, that's part of the surprise.

 

I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.

You asked if 'we' could summarize the thread. I didn't realize that you just wanted the rest of us to hold your notes. :laughing:

Dang, man, I got something you can hold. I'm more than sick of your personal responses. Address the topic.

 

I asked for input on summarizing, that would help us all.

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neither the cache owners nor anyone else ever told me that the caches in question were tall tale caches. Rather, I figured it out myself.

Vinny = Non gullible.

_______ (<~~insert name) = gullible.

So much drama makes my hair hurt & my teeth itch. :)

Personally, my own preferred way of phrasing it is not in terms of "gullible", but rather, Vinny and many others did their research and paid attention, and some other cachers, namely some from MN, did not do their due diligence research or did not pay attention. And my ultimate point, of course, for those who made themselves "victims" is: why blame someone else, such as the cache owner, for your own failure to perform due diligence?

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You missed:

All caches should be rated appropriately.

Didn't miss it, just don't agree! :)

 

Liars caches are almost always over or under rated, that's part of the surprise.

 

I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.

You asked if 'we' could summarize the thread. I didn't realize that you just wanted the rest of us to hold your notes. :laughing:
Dang, man, I got something you can hold. I'm more than sick of your personal responses. Address the topic.

 

I asked for input on summarizing, that would help us all.

Two people offered the same input. Either you want help summarizing the thread, or you are listing your beliefs. Don't ask for one when you want the other.

 

(And you have nothing that I would want to hold. Do not offer, again.)

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... And my ultimate point, of course, for those who made themselves "victims" is: why blame someone else, such as the cache owner, for your own failure to perform due diligence?
My feeling is that you should be able to check the difficulty/terrain ratings and type of cache to get an idea of what you are getting yourself into. You should not have to do a tremendous amount of research on each cache.

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. . .I don't believe that cachers who participate for the physical challenge of it would appreciate finding 1/1 a liar's cache in a grubby lot. I also don't believe that any good can be done by conditioning cachers to believe that caches with high terrain ratings probably are just over-rated.

You know, and this applies to a much greater range of caches than the small field of tall tale caches, I would much rather that a cache be overrated a bit on Terrain than underrated. Nothing annoys me more than to get to a cache with a Terrain rating of 1 or 2, only to discover that we are expected to climb a tree or climb on the roof of a 7 foot tall bus stop shelter; I am not annoyed so much for myself as for those cachers who may be handicapped, or who may not have either the physical skills (or ability) or preference to tackle a high-Terrain-rating cache!

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. . .I don't believe that cachers who participate for the physical challenge of it would appreciate finding 1/1 a liar's cache in a grubby lot. I also don't believe that any good can be done by conditioning cachers to believe that caches with high terrain ratings probably are just over-rated.
You know, and this applies to a much greater range of caches than the small field of tall tale caches, I would much rather that a cache be overrated a bit on Terrain than underrated. Nothing annoys me more than to get to a cache with a Terrain rating of 1 or 2, only to discover that we are expected to climb a tree or climb on the roof of a 7 foot tall bus stop shelter; I am not annoyed so much for myself as for those cachers who may be handicapped, or who may not have either the physical skills (or ability) or preference to tackle a high-Terrain-rating cache!
I totally agree. It is better for the terrain rating to be slightly over-rated. However, with a liar's cache, you frequently see a 1.5 rated as a 4.5. Cachers find caches like this and learn that the terrain ratings are meaningless. You then have cachers who could get themselves into trouble on caches with real terrain ratings that are beyond their abilities.

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I wouldn't under-rate it because some folks might not be able to get it - but I would over-rate it, no one is hurt if it's easier than expected.
Your post reminded me of two things. First, is all the whiners who insist on getting some way to easily sort out caches that they don't like. Second, are all the cachers who state that they only really enjoy caches that take them on a hike and challenge them.

 

 

I will say this was one of the reasons for our disapointment as we were all looking for a hard difficulty cache, we've done a few true tough ones since then and find them to be wonderful esp when spaced out between other caches. We went to the first stage to check the true terrain (and found out the truth) because we had one in our group that was not going to be able to possibly do it depending on how trully difficult it looked as he had a bad back so we essentailly had to go out and check things out before the next morning only to discover the truth.

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. . .I don't believe that cachers who participate for the physical challenge of it would appreciate finding 1/1 a liar's cache in a grubby lot. I also don't believe that any good can be done by conditioning cachers to believe that caches with high terrain ratings probably are just over-rated.

You know, and this applies to a much greater range of caches than the small field of tall tale caches, I would much rather that a cache be overrated a bit on Terrain than underrated. Nothing annoys me more than to get to a cache with a Terrain rating of 1 or 2, only to discover that we are expected to climb a tree or climb on the roof of a 7 foot tall bus stop shelter; I am not annoyed so much for myself as for those cachers who may be handicapped, or who may not have either the physical skills (or ability) or preference to tackle a high-Terrain-rating cache!

 

I agree to a certain extent, over rating a bit is okay but there is a HUGE difference froma 1.5 to a 4.5.

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I am sure they can be quite fun and really if we had known the truth right up front we wouldn't have had the issue we have....SNIP

 

Since you keep bring up this point, I have to make an observation:

 

There were 6 in the original group, 1 drove down the next day after knowing the truth because he plans on making a real gauntlet and wanted to check this one out. All but the 2 had hard feelings that I know of, one that didn't was the one who knew the truth coming down, the second I never actaully asked him how how felt one way or another but I suspent he may be the one that helped with the article because of how I recieved the info that this discussion was out here and about the article. There were 4 females in the original group, 2 males, and 1 male that joined us. Other then the experience with this specific cache and this specific cache owner the trip was fine, tho not one we probably would have made at that time if we had known the truth. Several were planning on making that cache a milestone instead they used other caches. In fact out of the whole trip the best caches which another MN cacher puts us onto after we talked to them about the cache in question (they had done it already and got an earful for not informing us of the truth. The difference is they apologized and wished they had informed us..) was the Twin Bluffs Series

 

I'm STILL not buying into the fact that the other 5 of 6 adults could all be that naive.

 

So you admit that at least one person in your party KNEW all along? Why was there no mention of THIS person in the news article? :) That person didn't go just to see your reaction. There was a back-up cachin' agenda that they wanted to be part of and it sounds like the whole party enjoyed it or did the seethers just sit in the car and polish their angst? That coupled with 2 missed opportunities to confront the cache owner in person cements most of the subsequent actions as vindictive and wrong. It appears to me you/they did what you/they did out of pure mean spirit. Remember, I said "appears."

 

Back to this:

 

The difference is they apologized and wished they had informed us.

 

It appears (there's that word again) LO has apologized BEFORE your latest post that I quoted:

 

"I am sorry that you gals didn't have the best of times, it was never meant to be so"

 

The cache is now archived directly relating to this matter. An innocent reporter has been stripped of her childlike wonder for caching and now LO has apologized. Does she need to come back and wish she had informed you better publicly for the two months of messyness to end? I'm kinda wondering how long the "We didn't know," and "We spent our hard earned money," points are going to linger on.

 

In light of all that has transpired there is no clean victory to be had and it appears that there never was one.

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OK, i have been sitting on my hands waiting to get off work for the last two days so i can say my piece in this whole thing!

 

I'm one of the WI Cachers who came out to the Dells out of my OWN time to see MN find the Gauntlet, I'm also good friends with LO. I spent will over 200 dollars on that weekend and spent close to 300dollars on a pervious weekend in July to complete the Cache in Question ALSO My Dad Rode his motorcycle well over 500+ miles from Ohio to do this cache with has spent quite a bit of money himself..

I can understand about the spending of money but CammoCacher, and Red Devil(Sorry not quite sure of the name) You have over reacted and still are overreacting

I was pissed off too at first but then i got over it in all over 10minutes of finding the cache! and i was a helluva lot more embrasse about it because i had gotten a group of over 20 people (5-8 of them are veterns of this cache) I still had fun, once i was over it i laughed at myself and got over it!

 

When i met all of you that night before I thought you were all very nice, and good people. But the way you have acting is starting to make me think differently, and i don't want to think of you as mean people! I'm sorry you have feel this way about the whole thing, but i wish you could leave LO alone, and just drop the whole issue. Listen to the rest of MN cachers on your own Forums and take their advice, this has gone on too long, Drop it please...

 

I hope this creates no hard feelings, I don't want to upset anyone futher but this has gone on long enough! and it needs to stop!

 

Coastiegirl04

 

I'm sorry I am not you and hold nothing against you or any of the other cachers that were there but even you admited you were pissed off about the truth in the beginning so then you can see how others might be too. Which indicates to me that you also did not know when you departed for your journey that this was a liar's cache - is that correct?

 

Yes this is Correct when i first went after the cache i had no idea that it was a lair's cache.

Yes i was pissed off, BUT i had gotten over right away, UNLIKE CamoCacher and the rest of the group who went on that trip, Who are still raging about this. All i have to say is JUST Drop It. The cache is gone, what more do you want!

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neither the cache owners nor anyone else ever told me that the caches in question were tall tale caches. Rather, I figured it out myself.

Vinny = Non gullible.

_______ (<~~insert name) = gullible.

So much drama makes my hair hurt & my teeth itch. :)

Personally, my own preferred way of phrasing it is not in terms of "gullible", but rather, Vinny and many others did their research and paid attention, and some other cachers, namely some from MN, did not do their due diligence research or did not pay attention. And my ultimate point, of course, for those who made themselves "victims" is: why blame someone else, such as the cache owner, for your own failure to perform due diligence?

 

Vinny, how many times does it need to be repeated that if you DON"T know there are such things as liar's caches, what exactly are you supposed to be looking for. ESPECIALLY if it's in another state. For everyone who has cached in multiple states (and I'll admit I don't have many to speak of :laughing: ), from what I've seen each state/area hides and logs things a bit different. Yes, there's some similarity, but there are differences too. How many areas have people that NEVER log DNF's, or have owners who delete them? Really, it's like telling a child they should have known not to touch a hot stove...how do they know this if they've never touched one? The only thing they can do is rely on others...and in this case I know a LOT of preperation was done and emails exchanged...but obviously nobody said "this is a liars cache". In reality, if that had been said early on...a group would still have run out to do it, but probably not in the cold and not ONLY that cache, but a trip to find caches in that entire area.

 

I'll admit to being a bit biased from the fact I know the group from MN that was involved, and was asked to come along but had something else I was doing that weekend. The thing is, from my perspective that's probably a good thing, because although the people that did the cache were civil about it at the event...I'm doubtful I would be able to be civil about that type of thing. I also have this bad tendency to open mouth and insert foot, so combined, it's probably a very good thing I was not involved. From my perspective, I know the Dells area, and want to head there caching...but if I'm going specifically for something "special" and not just to explore the area, I would be very upset to find NOTHING special. Would I still try to make the best of it, probably...but as stated I wasn't along, and only know the story from the MN side. But in reality, the fact that the "liars cache" logs were deleted when the "death" was posted also shows something of the story. If the logs have to continue to be creative, that's pretty darn creative in my opinion.

 

As is, I tend to agree that things SHOULD settle down, but again, relize that BOTH sides have come into this disucussion in the forums BECAUSE of other's posts. Not on their own volition, but because people asked them to come in and explain. And in reality, the MN side I've spoken too were going to only tell people IN PERSON and not go overboard...it was the email exchanges and log deletions that continued to upset them to the point of where we are.

 

Overall, liars caches seem to have their place, and in some ways if this hadn't happened, I would still see some humor...but at this point I'm equating what happened here with another repeated story in the forums about how a fake "found it" log can cost money and hurt feelings. At this point I already know I won't make a fake "found it" since many of us judge the repair of our caches based on logs...I'll have to figure out what I'd do if I ever find a "liars cache".

 

Celticwulf

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neither the cache owners nor anyone else ever told me that the caches in question were tall tale caches. Rather, I figured it out myself.

Vinny = Non gullible.

_______ (<~~insert name) = gullible.

So much drama makes my hair hurt & my teeth itch. :)

Personally, my own preferred way of phrasing it is not in terms of "gullible", but rather, Vinny and many others did their research and paid attention, and some other cachers, namely some from MN, did not do their due diligence research or did not pay attention. And my ultimate point, of course, for those who made themselves "victims" is: why blame someone else, such as the cache owner, for your own failure to perform due diligence?

 

We did, we contacted the owner. As a multi it would be hard to know where it leads you so checking maps which we did to a degree, will only tell you so much such as what the terrain of the starting point looks like. I know several multi's here in MN that drive you around to different places within a 10 mile area, looking at the maps does you jackcrack.

 

We also talked to a few other cachers who had heard from others that this was trully a hard cache and not a liar's cache.

 

I will admit I didn't read all but a few logs - why cuz I don't. I hate when spoilers are included as they are so many times so I avoid reading the logs until I get back. In this case I will admit after reading the logs it was somewhat abvious (lack of DNF's) that some of the stories were WAY out there but then again I know cacher who love to write whoppers on thier logs just cuz they can.

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I am sure they can be quite fun and really if we had known the truth right up front we wouldn't have had the issue we have....SNIP

 

Since you keep bring up this point, I have to make an observation:

 

There were 6 in the original group, 1 drove down the next day after knowing the truth because he plans on making a real gauntlet and wanted to check this one out. All but the 2 had hard feelings that I know of, one that didn't was the one who knew the truth coming down, the second I never actaully asked him how how felt one way or another but I suspent he may be the one that helped with the article because of how I recieved the info that this discussion was out here and about the article. There were 4 females in the original group, 2 males, and 1 male that joined us. Other then the experience with this specific cache and this specific cache owner the trip was fine, tho not one we probably would have made at that time if we had known the truth. Several were planning on making that cache a milestone instead they used other caches. In fact out of the whole trip the best caches which another MN cacher puts us onto after we talked to them about the cache in question (they had done it already and got an earful for not informing us of the truth. The difference is they apologized and wished they had informed us..) was the Twin Bluffs Series

 

I'm STILL not buying into the fact that the other 5 of 6 adults could all be that naive.

 

So you admit that at least one person in your party KNEW all along? Why was there no mention of THIS person in the news article? :) That person didn't go just to see your reaction. There was a back-up cachin' agenda that they wanted to be part of and it sounds like the whole party enjoyed it or did the seethers just sit in the car and polish their angst? That coupled with 2 missed opportunities to confront the cache owner in person cements most of the subsequent actions as vindictive and wrong. It appears to me you/they did what you/they did out of pure mean spirit. Remember, I said "appears."

 

Back to this:

 

The difference is they apologized and wished they had informed us.

 

It appears (there's that word again) LO has apologized BEFORE your latest post that I quoted:

 

"I am sorry that you gals didn't have the best of times, it was never meant to be so"

 

The cache is now archived directly relating to this matter. An innocent reporter has been stripped of her childlike wonder for caching and now LO has apologized. Does she need to come back and wish she had informed you better publicly for the two months of messyness to end? I'm kinda wondering how long the "We didn't know," and "We spent our hard earned money," points are going to linger on.

 

In light of all that has transpired there is no clean victory to be had and it appears that there never was one.

 

I'm sorry I wasn't very clear the one that knew knew because we called him that night after we found it and knew the truth. Sorry about that.

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So you admit that at least one person in your party KNEW all along?

 

See my post above on reading the caches...but here's the answer to that question: Remeber the group found out it was a liars cache the day BEFORE they were supposed to do it, when one person ran over to see what the terrain looked like for the SECOND stage. They then CALLED the 7th person who came down the next day, and HE knew at that point about the cache, but wanted to come and cache with the group through the day...

 

make better sense now?

 

and again, I repeat, this is a thread created by someone NOT involved in the story...and we've got others in this thread that are now just finding out about these things...the thread IS serving some purpose in getting people to discuss the issue. However, yes the cache in question is archived now, but the discussion is still open...

 

personally I like Vinny's statement they should all be puzzles...because in reality, for a multi it could have the first stage at walmart but the second down a cliff and the terrian would need to be rated for the cliff...

 

(edit) But basically the thread was started not to focus on one cache in general, but ALL liars caches and thoughts about it. In reality, in my opinion they probably have their place...but any cache that would cause this much anger is not really a good thing. Within a guideline of remembering that we ALWAYS have new cachers coming in, and that some people may not have seen this style cache, anything that would help make it easier to eliminate the anger would be good...and that may include making it mystery, or having some blatent hints...or at the very least NOT making it sound too much like an amazing cache people would drive for miles to do expecting a great view/experience and then have neither be the case. But that's just my thoughts. (end edit, cause I realized I posted before finishing entire thought :) )

 

Celticwulf

Edited by Celticwulf

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I'm sorry I wasn't very clear the one that knew knew because we called him that night after we found it and knew the truth. Sorry about that.

 

Okay. It still comes down to this then. I find it hard to believe that the original 6 in the first group could ALLLLLLLLL be that duped. 1 in 10 maybe, but 6 in 10 not in your lifetime or mine. :)

 

The cache survived 2.5 years just a couple hundred miles away. In my neck of the woods (Houston, most of the year.) that's the distance to Austin or Dallas. You would be hard pressed to poll any six active cachers in Houston about a liar's cache in Austin or Dallas and find them ALL oblivious. Active cachers pass this information on at events and in their respective forums and yahoo groups.

 

To go a step further after finally finding 6 oblivious active cachers and having them read the liar's cache pages....... What are the odds that ALL 6 would take them at face value? A recovering gambler off the wagon wouldn't take that bet.

 

So now our 6 cachers hop in a van to go do these percieved hard caches........ On a couple hour van trip what are the odds that at least one cacher doesn't state, "I'm gonna be totally pi$sed if this turns out to be a hoax.".....? Why would they say a thing like that? Because what seems too good to be true most often is.

 

Tell me. In your group. Did not ONE of the original six anticipate a good pis$er over that cache during conversation on that drive?

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The cache survived 2.5 years just a couple hundred miles away. In my neck of the woods (Houston, most of the year.) that's the distance to Austin or Dallas. You would be hard pressed to poll any six active cachers in Houston about a liar's cache in Austin or Dallas and find them ALL oblivious. Active cachers pass this information on at events and in their respective forums and yahoo groups.

 

To go a step further after finally finding 6 oblivious active cachers and having them read the liar's cache pages....... What are the odds that ALL 6 would take them at face value? A recovering gambler off the wagon wouldn't take that bet.

 

So now our 6 cachers hop in a van to go do these percieved hard caches........ On a couple hour van trip what are the odds that at least one cacher doesn't state, "I'm gonna be totally pi$sed if this turns out to be a hoax.".....? Why would they say a thing like that? Because what seems too good to be true most often is.

 

Tell me. In your group. Did not ONE of the original six anticipate a good pis$er over that cache during conversation on that drive?

 

Again, I wasn't along but somehow have suckered myself into commenting in this thread, so better keep going for at least one more post :)

 

First off, the group that went out are all more recent cachers (started within the last year). Second off, to my knowlege (and only having 550+ finds in the area, mine may not be great) we do not have ANY liars caches in this nearby vicinity...we may and I just don't know about them, but we don't have them in this specific area. Thirdly, with those two facts known, remember the group was coming from MN where a lot of newer cachers don't leave the immediate area because of the decent quantity of caches in the area...we've got King Boreas placing caches all over, and some really creative hiders here. So in general, newer cachers don't head out 6+ hours to cache in that area. Also, realize that the group did NOT head out there in a single van...since everyone got off work at different times and had different caches they wanted to do, seperate vehicles were taken...which is how only one person found out about it at first and then the cell phones notified everyone in transit. This also happened because many of the cachers start from different areas of MN, and with our rush hours in the cities it is many times easier to just meet at the final location than try to carpool.

 

So, since none of the cachers involved had ever found a "liars cache", and only hints were given that these things existed in the MNGCA forum, why should this be OBVIOUS? As stated, the one MN cacher that knew about this before they left didn't say anything...and all others didn't have a real idea...heck, until I actually spoke to the people involved I wanted to get another cacher to run out there with me the next weekend to look for the blood trail left by the injured cacher :laughing:

 

Remember, things that may be common in one area (liars caches, temp logging, fake logging, puzzles, multis, psyco urbans) may and probably aren't common elsewhere...and really until you know all the possiblities what are you supposed to look for ahead of time? Really, I'm guessing everyone enjoyed their first Lamp Post Cache, because this was something new and it felt like something secret that only a few people knew about. Once you see a town littered by lamp post caches, you realize that maybe they aren't the greatest thing...but every single one of those can be a new experience to another cacher. When you drive up and know where the cache is right away, that means YOU have the experince...that doesn't mean EVERYONE does or should. Make sense?

 

Celticwulf

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Ok, I didn't bother wasting my time reading through all this but...

 

Yes, I am one of the group that went down to do "the gauntlet". No I didn't check it out before hand, and just went with the group and found out it was a Liar's cache. I usually like to do tough caches (high terrain, difficulty ratings) so I was looking forward to a challenge, but found out it was a waste of time. I guess some might find that original or entertaining, but to me it was just a lot of bs.

 

I guess the problem I had was that I didn't know you could post bs caches and I didn't know another geocacher would actually want to. To me it seems juvenile. I try to get all my "inner child" stuff like this out on April Fools Day and then I am usually good for the year. Why muck up a perfectly good hobby with these types of caches. But, now that I know, I definitely do the extra work to make sure it isn't a liar's cache before I head out.

 

Anyway. That's my 2 cents.

 

Camo -

 

- Don't waste any more keystrokes on this. (haven't we wasted enough time on "the gauntlet" as it is?)

 

- I'll be home in about an hour. Have you begun preparing my dinner yet? :)

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Ok, I didn't bother wasting my time reading through all this but...

 

Yes, I am one of the group that went down to do "the gauntlet". No I didn't check it out before hand, and just went with the group and found out it was a Liar's cache. I usually like to do tough caches (high terrain, difficulty ratings) so I was looking forward to a challenge, but found out it was a waste of time. I guess some might find that original or entertaining, but to me it was just a lot of bs.

 

I guess the problem I had was that I didn't know you could post bs caches and I didn't know another geocacher would actually want to. To me it seems juvenile. I try to get all my "inner child" stuff like this out on April Fools Day and then I am usually good for the year. Why muck up a perfectly good hobby with these types of caches. But, now that I know, I definitely do the extra work to make sure it isn't a liar's cache before I head out.

 

Anyway. That's my 2 cents.

 

Camo -

 

- Don't waste any more keystrokes on this. (haven't we wasted enough time on "the gauntlet" as it is?)

 

- I'll be home in about an hour. Have you begun preparing my dinner yet? :)

 

Geckoone go make your own %^^ dinner, my Luv!

 

Going to lay by my dish as requested by my luv!

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So, since none of the cachers involved had ever found a "liars cache", and only hints were given that these things existed in the MNGCA forum, why should this be OBVIOUS?

Well, I'd think that if you read the cache description and the last five log entries before you went to find it, you'd realize that there was something fishy about it pretty fast.

 

I learned the hard way not to try caching "blind" (with the waypoint but without the description and log sheets). Or, if I do decide to find a cache blindly, to understand the risks involved (it might be missing or disabled, for instance). And that's just for regular caches.

 

I once got stuck while doing a crossword puzzle ... it seemed like it should have been easy, but I couldn't get any of the answers. Finally, when I realized that the answer to "It's windy" was "WIND" and "Like a bird" was "BIRDLIKE" and when I coupled that with the calendar (April 1), it dawned on me that it was an April Fool's Day joke. Now, I could have gotten really angry about the 45 minutes or so that I spent making no progress, but instead I laughed at the joke and admired the puzzle authors for pulling it off.

 

IMHO, if you don't bother to read the description and the logs and to think about what you've read, then you get what's coming to you (good or bad). Critical thinking is a very handy skill for a lot more contexts in life than just geocaching.

 

-eP

Edited by ePeterso2

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that means YOU have the experince...that doesn't mean EVERYONE does or should. Make sense?

 

It makes sense when you're discussing experience with hiding techniques, but this thread isn't about LPCs.

 

My point is that I find it hard to believe that ALL 6 people lacked the common sense to see what they were getting into given the distance to travel, the claimed expense, the preparation, not to mention obvious clues on the cache page and in the logs.

 

Again, I wasn't along but somehow have suckered myself into commenting in this thread, so better keep going for at least one more post :laughing:

 

So, since none of the cachers involved had ever found a "liars cache", and only hints were given that these things existed in the MNGCA forum, why should this be OBVIOUS?

 

There were dead give aways to at least ask more questions:

Those that do not follow the instructions within the container will have their logs/notes deleted..

Don't know about you, but that right there is a red flag to ask questions.

 

Or how about this picture posted on the cache page:

008ee138-a444-4a14-af5b-1115942bc41e.jpg

I dunno. It coulda fooled me. [/sarcasm]

 

The discontinuity between the logs is a DEAD GIVEAWAY.

 

How does some people's lack of preparation for a life lesson and inability to accept it become the cache owner's fault?

 

For over 2.5 years people got the joke, but because some folks want to hang onto their childlike wonder for caching everyone else hasta clear the pool..... ;)

 

Sorry. Not convinced. Had it been one or two people... mayyyybe....But 6. C'mon mannnn. :)

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Why I am I just a Tadpole? Huh..

 

Camo -

 

- Fine. I'll see what I can do about dinner, but you know the risks.

 

- One last thing, I am not really at work:

 

wheels.jpg

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Why I am I just a Tadpole? Huh..

 

Camo -

 

- Fine. I'll see what I can do about dinner, but you know the risks.

 

- One last thing, I am not really at work:

 

wheels.jpg

 

You have to be in my gargage stealing my wheels cuz they beat your wheelz!

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Personally, my own preferred way of phrasing it is not in terms of "gullible", but rather, Vinny and many others did their research and paid attention, and some other cachers, namely some from MN, did not do their due diligence research or did not pay attention. And my ultimate point, of course, for those who made themselves "victims" is: why blame someone else, such as the cache owner, for your own failure to perform due diligence?

 

Since TAR asked for a summary, here's my perspective:

I have not done the cache in question. (Fortunately, there are no such caches in my area.) 'Gullible'? That's shifting blame to the innocent. I take cache pages at face value. And I expect them to be accurate. I do not read logs before searching for a cache (for the first attempt).

Summary: Some people are evil and malicious, and enjoy making others look like fools. Calling them 'gullible' and 'making themselves victims' makes the malice far worse. As I posted before: Some people like tripping old ladies with canes. Some people are sick, and need help. This cache exemplifies that.

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...IMHO, if you don't bother to read the description and the logs and to think about what you've read, then you get what's coming to you (good or bad). ...
... The discontinuity between the logs is a DEAD GIVEAWAY. ...
Many, if not most, cachers don't read the logs before attempting to find a cache. Personally, I only read them if I can't find the cache.
Why I am I just a Tadpole? Huh..
Everyone's a tadpole until they've made five posts. Edited by sbell111

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

 

You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :)

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

 

You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :laughing:

oHHH!!! May I please have three softly scrambled egges, with really really realy crisp bacon? Please? :);)

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...IMHO, if you don't bother to read the description and the logs and to think about what you've read, then you get what's coming to you (good or bad). ...
... The discontinuity between the logs is a DEAD GIVEAWAY. ...
Many, if not most, cachers don't read the logs before attempting to find a cache. Personally, I only read them if I can't find the cache.

 

That's excuseable on a in-town impromptu cache run.

 

However, (violins please) it doesn't cut it for this thread or my point that 6 people SIX could not have been duped so completely. Not for a preplanned "Purple Assault on the Gauntlet.*" (*from their own forum.)

 

Brainerd's own words:

The cache, located in the vicinity of the Wisconsin Dells, was rated a 4 (on a scale of 5) for both diffi-culty and terrain. The logs written made it sound horribly difficult, with choices of a "low road" to find it - apparently going through some kind of marshy backwaters near the Wisconsin River - and a "high road," which climbed up and down over bluffs and rocks almost requir-ing climbing gear. The cache's location was supposedly in a cave on a bluff.

 

For this Gauntlet cache, logs talked about needing hip waders, tons of maps, emergency gear, et-cetera, etcetera.

 

It seemed each log was crazier than the next, with worsening inju-ries and lost items reported. I won-dered, "Is this cache real?" a ques-tion also asked in a forum. Some-one answered he'd been assured the cache was real.

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

 

You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :laughing:

oHHH!!! May I please have three softly scrambled egges, with really really realy crisp bacon? Please? :);)

 

MMMMM Crispy Bacon MMMMMM I wish I had some. But I'll get started on those eggs....

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Well, I'd think that if you read the cache description and the last five log entries before you went to find it, you'd realize that there was something fishy about it pretty fast. . .

.

I learned the hard way not to try caching "blind" (with the waypoint but without the description and log sheets). Or, if I do decide to find a cache blindly, to understand the risks involved (it might be missing or disabled, for instance). And that's just for regular caches.

 

I once got stuck while doing a crossword puzzle ... it seemed like it should have been easy, but I couldn't get any of the answers. Finally, when I realized that the answer to "It's windy" was "WIND" and "Like a bird" was "BIRDLIKE" and when I coupled that with the calendar (April 1), it dawned on me that it was an April Fool's Day joke. Now, I could have gotten really angry about the 45 minutes or so that I spent making no progress, but instead I laughed at the joke and admired the puzzle authors for pulling it off.

 

IMHO, if you don't bother to read the description and the logs and to think about what you've read, then you get what's coming to you (good or bad). Critical thinking is a very handy skill for a lot more contexts in life than just geocaching.

 

-eP

You know, I am a scientist, and so perhaps because of that bias I too must admit that I appreciate the value of critical thinking and just a wer little bit of comon sense in any and all areas of life, and thus I enjoyed your mention of critical thinkng in your post. But, let's got beyond even that statement for a moment -- here goes:

 

Putting the of value critical thinking and common sense aside for the moment, I am also a mystic, and the mystic in me says:

Am I really being asked to believe that of these six people, not one used a bit of critical thinking or common sense in reviewing this cache, but, moreover, am I really also being asked to believe the not one of them listened to their intuition (aka gut sense) or their hearts regarding this cache? It is my belief that most of us get a lot of our best information in life from our intuition (aka gut sense) and our hearts, and I just find it really hard to believe that not one of these six people saw any red flags (about this cache) on any of their radar screens, whether it be common sense radar, or critical thinking radar, or intuition radar, or heart sense. Wow! Wow! :laughing::);)

 

And then, and this is the part that rather confounds me, is the news that at least three or four members of that group got angry and stayed angry and are still acting like victims and justifying their anger two months later... Wow! :)

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...And then, and this is the part that rather confounds me, is the news that at least three or four members of that group got angry and stayed angry and are still acting like victims and justifying their anger two months later... Wow! :)

There was something up there about some back and forth communication that fanned the flames after the fact.

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

 

You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :)

Sounds great, but please tell me that there is no chance I'm being set up for a "liar's dinner". You promise eggs and toast and cocoa, but if it turns out we're actually having eggplant and Ovaltine, you do realize that I won't be happy, right? :laughing:

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I believe I only deleted two logs/notes.. [the talked about died ones] And here's how I handled them..

11-13-06

--------

CamoCacher posted a note for The Gauntlet.. Let the Games Begin!! (Multi-cache) at 11/13/2006

 

Log Date: 11/13/2006

I am so sad and upset that I can not even log a find. Unforttanatly PolarOne died. As her friend and because she went through so much I will go into her account and post her find as the final testament to her final cache.

 

--------

PolarOne found The Gauntlet.. Let the Games Begin!! (Multi-cache) at 11/12/2006

 

Log Date: 11/12/2006

This is Camocacher......PolarOne showed great bravery and fortatude during her last hours. She is a true testament to what a cacher is. She will be greatly missed as she has been my caching buddy from almost the beginning (at least after she got over the "I think your nutz"). God Speed Polarone.

 

--------

-- Copy of email sent to CamoCacher --

Greetings CamoCacher,

 

PolarOne's copy already sent..

 

Greetings PolarOne,

 

Your story didn't fit into your logging all the caches during the day you were in troubles..

 

Story just doesn't fit right and it would be a shame to ruin your PolarOne acct.. for such a tale.

 

Hope this helps,

~The Lil Otter

-----

 

Then a copy of the email I sent to the gals involved

-----

As you must have noticed.. the two "PolarOne" died logs have been deleted... I've been having to deal with harrassments all day and now you do this type of thing to bring in countless others that now email me in regards to your pranks..

 

I'm very sorry that you Gals didn't have the best of times.. it was never intended to be such.

 

I am not going over the letters to 'correct' or banter back or forth.. You gals made your point very clear but to state that one died on the trails is WAY over the top and should cease..

 

Please do not make me have to babysit the cache page and have you upset more cachers with your 'death' posts..

 

As CamoCacher stated she went to the Admin..

 

I find this a very cruel way to PAYBACK a cache owner that you are not happy with.. too many think that someone has passed away..

 

Get a grip please and keep this on a adult level,

~The Lil Otter

-----

Camocacher's response

-----

You repead what you sowed.

 

-----end

 

Like I said in my letter to Snoogans in the FIRST Gauntlet forum postings.. "Thank you so much for your efforts to mentor/help those Gals from MN understand that it was not mean spirited sport on the Liar's cache they are talking about.. "

 

I'd like to take the time to thank all those that are here to help. I know that I could have done more [thanks to all this feedback here] but I wonder why CamoCacher didn't tear apart my words when I spoke about all the extreme behaviors done towards me.. I would hope that other's stuck in the same situation can learn from this.. and if they so desire yet to create a liar's cache.. that they will have to deal with some that have anger's to the extreme.. it's not all it's cracked up to be.. As I said before.. it's been a long month.. now almost two.. but I have had the first 2.5 years of some GREAT memories of my cache.

 

But please don't rip into them... I've kept quiet all these weeks in hopes that someone could help them focus their angers in a less hurtful way.. so by attacking them.. isn't it the same as how they've handled it this long? I don't want to have them go through what I have had to .. so please give them the benefit of the doubt..

 

~The Lil Otter

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I believe I only deleted two logs/notes.. [the talked about died ones] And here's how I handled them..

Forgive me, I realize that I often don't read really long posts carefully enough, however, I still don't really understand why you deleted the logs. Did they not lie like you asked them to?

Edited by sbell111

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I'm not a big fan of surprises, so I generally read cache pages pretty carefully (and at least some of the logs) before going after any given cache. And the higher the D/T, the more I study the logs.

 

But as long as the site doesn't require (or enforce, if such a thing would even be possible) accurate D/T ratings, we are stuck with caveat emptor, and whatever CamoCacher prepares us for dinner.

 

You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :)

Sounds great, but please tell me that there is no chance I'm being set up for a "liar's dinner". You promise eggs and toast and cocoa, but if it turns out we're actually having eggplant and Ovaltine, you do realize that I won't be happy, right? :laughing:

 

You can have eggs, white toast and coco but you got drive all the way to my house.

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You get eggs and white toast and hot coco.....how would you like your eggs cooked? :P

oHHH!!! May I please have three softly scrambled egges, with really really realy crisp bacon? Please? ;):)

 

MMMMM Crispy Bacon MMMMMM I wish I had some. But I'll get started on those eggs....

Thank you! :laughing::)

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