Business Cache

[+Team Merlin]

What are your opinions on placing a cache on the property of a place of business? I got permission to place a cache on the property (outside) of a cider mill that is opened year round. It is more than just a cider mill though, it is a country store, restaurant apple orchard etc. The only problems is that it would only be available during business hours. Any concern or opinions? - Team Merlin ps. there is no fee to get in.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Team Merlin

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

Do you need to pay to get in the property? If no, I'd say it's alright. Seen many caches placed in locations where you have to pay to get in...

[+back2eight]

Do you need to pay to get in the property? If no, I'd say it's alright. Seen many caches placed in locations where you have to pay to get in...

 

Can you find a place nearby that is available anytime, not just business hours?

[+Team Merlin]

Do you need to pay to get in the property? If no, I'd say it's alright. Seen many caches placed in locations where you have to pay to get in...

 

Can you find a place nearby that is available anytime, not just business hours?

when I say business hours, I mean sunrise to 9 -9:30 pm. This cider mill is surrounded by private property. & the idea was to bring people to this cider mill I enjoy so much. - Dave

[+GIDEON-X]

Hi, I've had a cache at this location since 02....... 3 different owners. It has worked out ok.

The Location (197 visits)

[+baloo&bd]

Do you need to pay to get in the property? If no, I'd say it's alright. Seen many caches placed in locations where you have to pay to get in...

 

Can you find a place nearby that is available anytime, not just business hours?

when I say business hours, I mean sunrise to 9 -9:30 pm. This cider mill is surrounded by private property. & the idea was to bring people to this cider mill I enjoy so much. - Dave

 

If the intent is to promote the business, it won't fly. If the intent is to bring someone to a neat area or place, go for it. Hours can be somewhat discouraging but there are many caches with hours more restrictive than you listed here. Those are not much worst than most parks or forest preserves.

 

Having said this, it is still (as always) up to the reviewer in your area however the way you've described it, there should not be much of a problem.

Edited September 7, 2006 by baloo&bd

[+DavidMac]

Not speaking from personal experience, but from the experiances of others, one piece of advice is to carefully word the description (that is, focus more on the mill and it's historic aspect rather than the commercial nature of the store). Something like "be sure to check out the adjacent store and pick up some fresh cider!" probably wouldn't fly, while mentioning that "the store owners have granted permission to place this cache on their property" may not be a bad idea. If the cache description appears to be commercial in nature, the reviewer may have an issue with it. A reviewer would have to take a look at the description to say for sure, though.

[+Osoling]

There are a few caches around my area that state "During Business Hours Only." I think that if you state that in the comments, and there is no fee, you are good to go. If a person can't go during those hours, then they can just skip the cache.

[Team Misguided]

Do you need to pay to get in the property? If no, I'd say it's alright. Seen many caches placed in locations where you have to pay to get in...

 

Can you find a place nearby that is available anytime, not just business hours?

when I say business hours, I mean sunrise to 9 -9:30 pm. This cider mill is surrounded by private property. & the idea was to bring people to this cider mill I enjoy so much. - Dave

 

That would make this a commercial cache and those are not allowed. Even if you were able to make the cache available 24/7 just by being on the property of a business you are in fact endorsing that business and that is still commercial, although a bit more subtle than "Eat at Joe's - They've got great food".

[+Blue Power Ranger]

... just by being on the property of a business you are in fact endorsing that business and that is still commercial, although a bit more subtle than "Eat at Joe's - They've got great food".

 

So does any cache on a business' property mean that it is a commercial cache or is it the limited hours, where is the line of definition drawn?

 

I'll spare the obvious examples.

 

Edit: To clarify, so if the cache hider didn't mention that his intention was to show people this mill he likes, would he be okay with the listing?

Edited September 7, 2006 by Blue Power Ranger

[+baloo&bd]

That would make this a commercial cache and those are not allowed. Even if you were able to make the cache available 24/7 just by being on the property of a business you are in fact endorsing that business and that is still commercial, although a bit more subtle than "Eat at Joe's - They've got great food".

 

Respectively, I don't agree.

 

There are many caches, both old and new, in the Chicago area that are on or near a business that the hider thinks is cool for whatever reason or another. Food, architecture, etc. There is no monetary gain being sought or required. Past caches do not set a precedent, however they do offer a example of possible lattitude.

 

The wording is the key. Not with the intent of decieving but to bring out your true intent or appreciation. In this case, as mentioned before, I would concentrate on the old mill aspect:

 

"Hidden near the historic XXX Mill, this was founded by Joe Cider in 1823 and has been in operation in one form or another ever since. Please be respectful as this is one of Smalltowns oldest structures.

 

Take some time to walk around and explore, you won't be disappointed."

 

As stated before, your reviewer will be the best judge at this. We are all kind of second guessing here since for many, the commercial requirement can sometimes have a fuzzy line (as may be the case here.).

Edited September 7, 2006 by baloo&bd

[+SierraFive]

Does it really matter if a cache is commercial. After all, you'll either bag the cache or not bother doing it. If you do decide to go after the cache, you don't have to buy anything anyway. Providing you don't have to pay to get to the cache, who cares.

 

Whilst I can understand the points made about descriptions, any old store owner could place a cache outside his store etc and go on about the wonderful surrounding area, mill, oak tree, whatever. If however, the result is that you end up on the doorstep of the store looking for a cache then is there really much difference from the cache that says "Get your cider from Joe's store."

 

Yes, the wording might be different but the end result is the same.

 

This is a bit of a gray area because no end of commercial properties will benefit from geocachers. How many caches do you see with a mention of where to park your car for a low fee, or suggested places to get something to eat or local museums etc worthy of a visit. They all support commercialism even if the cache placer doesn't benefit directly.

 

Is it okay for a cacher to place a cache and say there is a cafe nearby where you can get a drink and name it? What about if he names the cafe? Does it make any difference if more than one place is mentioned, i.e. the cache is not promoting one particular premises? What if the cache owner owns one of the premises? What if he doesn't?

 

I think the reality is that commercialism is probably already going on, it's maybe just not spelled out very loudly.

[+Team Teuton]

What he said.

[Team Misguided]

So does any cache on a business' property mean that it is a commercial cache ... *snip*

 

 

IMHO Yes. There doesn't have to be any intent to solicit for solicitation to happen. Just by being brought to the cider mill property by the cache, cachers will be exposed to direct advertising. That is unless this is one of those rare stores where they don't have any signs with the name of the business, no flyers in the window with the daily/weekly specials, no prices on the shelves and nothing to make people want to come on in and look around.

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

After reading Team Misguided's post I ask myself... Doesn't Geocaching drives you to buy something?

 

Like a GPS?

[Team Misguided]

After reading Team Misguided's post I ask myself... Doesn't Geocaching drives you to buy something?

 

Like a GPS?

 

It drove us to buy 5!!

 

Not to mention all the other stuff we needed to get, including the 4X4 truck.

 

Seriously though, the commercial guideline is a tough one. It should be something that the hider discusses with their local reviewer to find a way to make their idea work.

[+SierraFive]

After reading Team Misguided's post I ask myself... Doesn't Geocaching drives you to buy something?

 

Like a GPS?

 

Yep, like membership to Groundspeak/Geocaching.Com. How about merchandise that Groundspeak offer, we have stickers, and compasses and clothing, pens etc etc. You can buy fake rocks and books on the subject. Theres people making and selling their own cache kits on Ebay (Old film containers complete with chopped down pencil and slip of paper).

 

Your right about GPS devices. Whilst the most important piece of kit, the GPS manufacturers have honed in on the activity with there software now including special Geocaching facilities. It helps them sell more and make more money.

 

There are now teambuilding events being created, no doubt at a cost. What about Jeep travel bugs, definite advertising results there.

 

Yep, you sure can make a lot of money directly out of Geocaching but just don't whatever you do, put an obscure reference to someplace that might have an ice cream advertising poster in it's window.

[+oldsoldier]

So does any cache on a business' property mean that it is a commercial cache ... *snip*

 

 

IMHO Yes. There doesn't have to be any intent to solicit for solicitation to happen. Just by being brought to the cider mill property by the cache, cachers will be exposed to direct advertising. That is unless this is one of those rare stores where they don't have any signs with the name of the business, no flyers in the window with the daily/weekly specials, no prices on the shelves and nothing to make people want to come on in and look around.

 

Exercise a little self control!!! The cacher, no you specifically

 

That being said, there is a cache near me, here: red apple farm It is located on, yes, an apple farm. PArking is free, and the business hours are posted. The cache owner has permission. I didnt feel under any pressure to buy anything, pet anything (small petting zoo), pick anything. I DID have a craving for apple pie later though. Maybe it takes awhile for advertising to sink into my thick skull?

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

After reading Team Misguided's post I ask myself... Doesn't Geocaching drives you to buy something?

 

Like a GPS?

 

It drove us to buy 5!!

 

Not to mention all the other stuff we needed to get, including the 4X4 truck.

 

Seriously though, the commercial guideline is a tough one. It should be something that the hider discusses with their local reviewer to find a way to make their idea work.

 

 

Yes, I know it's a tough one, and should be. But, the way the OP wrote about his idea, and all the advices he got I see no objection to placing a cache there. There are a gazillion (ok, not that many) caches placed near businesses. Only a few could generate serious doubts (that we know of).

 

We only bought one... and a 4x4 is on our wish list!

[+Blue Power Ranger]

It should be something that the hider discusses with their local reviewer to find a way to make their idea work.

 

A lot of forum topics/problems could be avoided if everyone took this one bit of good advice.

[+SierraFive]

Of course, those cache placers that want to direct custom to their own business premises could always pay Groundspeak for an advert on the Geocaching.Com website. That kind of DIRECT advertising to cachers is okay with Groundspeak but then again they make money out of that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Groundspeak making money etc. It's just that it seems a little bit of double standards for some people to have their caches refused simply for making mention of some nearby shop or attraction that I might actually want to visit at the same time as i'm getting adverts to buy Signal the frog toys that I really don't want.

 

Personally, I think that providing cachers don't have to pay to enter a premises to get a cache then thats fine. I would rather visit a cache near an apple farm (As mentioned above) than be directed to some crappy cache by a dumpster (Subject to other forum postings).