60csx Sw 2.60 Waas Update - Tunnel Problem Fixed ?

[8mmag]

OK, no tunnels near me, but here's what I did. I put the unit in the fridge until it said weak signal, then took it out. In a minute or so, WAAS bas back as before I put it in. Then I went for a ride in the truck. Before when I tried this, after tracking about a minute or so, it locked up and required an off/on reset to get tracking again. This time however it worked perfectly!

 

Anyone near a real tunnel to confirm?

 

Thanks for all replies.

[8mmag]

Anybody got their 2.90 Firmware / 2.60 SW updated and has a tunnel nearby ???

[Onit]

Newbie here, what exactly is the tunnel problem?

I have a tunnel nearby but no car but tunnel has a pedestrian walk way built in if one doesn't mind walking through a noisy echoey windy tunnel.

[8mmag]

Newbie here, what exactly is the tunnel problem?

I have a tunnel nearby but no car but tunnel has a pedestrian walk way built in if one doesn't mind walking through a noisy echoey windy tunnel.

 

It is when, on 60/76 'x' series units (SIRF III), if the unit loses signal WITH WAAS ENABLED, and the unit moves some 'appreciable' distance it either never regains lock or regains it for a short period of time and then freezes up. If this happens, the only way to get up & running again is to power off/on again.

[f5fstop]

Newbie here, what exactly is the tunnel problem?

I have a tunnel nearby but no car but tunnel has a pedestrian walk way built in if one doesn't mind walking through a noisy echoey windy tunnel.

 

It is when, on 60/76 'x' series units (SIRF III), if the unit loses signal WITH WAAS ENABLED, and the unit moves some 'appreciable' distance it either never regains lock or regains it for a short period of time and then freezes up. If this happens, the only way to get up & running again is to power off/on again.

 

Happened to me last week in a Kroger store. I was testing the new 60csx, and I lost signal in the Kroger, after returning to the lot, it locked up. I had the 2.90 installed. I'll give it a test in the Eisenhower tunnel next Friday and see if it locks up now that I installed the new 2.60 version.

[8mmag]

.

 

 

I'll give it a test in the Eisenhower tunnel next Friday and see if it locks up now that I installed the new 2.60 version.

 

Now THAT's a tunnel! If it works there, I'd say its fixed...

[8mmag]

So did anyone take their 60CSx through a tunnel today on the way to work???

[iNiq]

There isn't a tunnel anywhere near where I live. Otherwise I would have tried it. I'm very interested to hear if this problem is resolved...

[+EraSeek]

I had this happen once before the latest fix. The solution for me was simply to turn the gpe function off, then back on again. Not power down.

 

Yesterday after the fix I had the unit on inside the walls of a metal ferry boat passageway and I lost signal, and regained it again once I emerged without any action on my part.

[Neo_Geo]

Just updated my unit last night to 2.90/2.60. Although I didn't check it today, I have the ultimate tunnel test to/from work - the Washington, DC Metro subway system. I enter underground at The Pentagon, typically wait 5 minutes or so for a train, and then come of the tunnel out briefly for a couple minutes enroute - then go back down again. I then emerge above ground at my final destination about 5 minutes after that. I'll check it tomorrow.

[+sylvainp]

Well here in Montreal I pass through a tunnel everyday to go to work.

 

Yesterday I update the GPS Software v2.60 and today I get WAAS #51 and I pass through the tunnel for about 1 minute and when I get out I get the satellite back no problem and the GPS didn't lock.

 

I was also having that problem prior to this new GPS software v2.60

 

Working good !

Edited June 27, 2006 by sylvainp

[Neo_Geo]

I'll check it tomorrow.

D'Oh! I knew I was supposed to have TWO things when I left the house this morning, and I only had one - but I was in a hurry. NOW I remember what the other thing was...

 

Glad to hear it's working for sylvainp!

Still, I'll post my test results here to confirm as well (if I can remember to bring it with me to work).

[+geobc]

Another data point: upgraded to latest SiRF firmware, enabled WAAS, and drove through a tunnel on the way to work. Spent less than one minute in the tunnel but the unit definitely lost all satellites. It regained them almost instantly when I exited the tunnel.

 

GeoBC

[Bikezilla]

I work in south Manhattan On the way home I'll take the subway to Grand Central (~30min) and let you know what happens.

 

I don't usually get a WAAS lock leaving the building but I'll wait for one this time.

 

Has anyone noticed it takes longer to get an initial lock if the unit has been off for more than an hour or two...and MUCH longer if you are moving when you turn it on? This seems to have happened for each revision. Not a problem for me just a curiosity.

[Neo_Geo]

Has anyone noticed it takes longer to get an initial lock if the unit has been off for more than an hour or two...and MUCH longer if you are moving when you turn it on? This seems to have happened for each revision. Not a problem for me just a curiosity.

I noticed that after loading a particular update (I think it was 2.70/2.50) - and I mean it was PAINFULLY SLOW at the time. I rolled-back from that version to the first Beta version that gave us tracking on the data card and have not had any problems since. After rolling back, they came out with a newer version than the one I rolled back from, and I updated to that one and it seemed okay. I have yet to navigate with my unit after the most recent updates, so I'll have to watch out for that too and I'll report back...

[andygriffith]

I work in south Manhattan On the way home I'll take the subway to Grand Central (~30min) and let you know what happens.

 

I don't usually get a WAAS lock leaving the building but I'll wait for one this time.

 

Has anyone noticed it takes longer to get an initial lock if the unit has been off for more than an hour or two...and MUCH longer if you are moving when you turn it on? This seems to have happened for each revision. Not a problem for me just a curiosity.

 

Bikezilla,

 

Can you share your opinion on how the reception is with your 60CSX in Manhattan? I took my 60CS there a couple of years ago and it was a struggle to keep a lock with all of the skyscrapers. Do you see any accuracy issues with signals bouncing off of buildings or does it work well?

[iNiq]

 

Has anyone noticed it takes longer to get an initial lock if the unit has been off for more than an hour or two...and MUCH longer if you are moving when you turn it on? This seems to have happened for each revision. Not a problem for me just a curiosity.

 

Yes. I would say that it takes a little over a minute to get a lock now. That’s after being turned off all night. And I'm turning it back on, in the same place it was turned off. Not a big deal to me. As long as waas is working, and the "tunnel bug" is gone, I'm satisfied.

[Bikezilla]

Yep, the WAAS tunnel problem has most certainly been resolved.

 

I started my system outside the office. In a stationary place on a street corner, near the west side. There were no buildings west of me, wide street to the east, open lanes north and south. Got a ~26-EPE general lock after ~40seconds (having been off for 8+hrs) Got a WAAS lock on Bird 51 after ~80 seconds. Walked t~5 blocks o the subway. EPE varied quite a bit in the canyons,(20s-40s-even higher at one point) WAAS came and went...mostly went. Stood outside the subway for a half a minuet to settle things down, but did not wait for WAAS.

 

I went underground and bagged my 60CSx for the 30 minuet trip uptown, plus another 20 minuets inside Grand Central and the train tunnel. I verified no lock or reception occured during the transfer from the subway to the train. (All deep inside)

 

I emerged from the tunnel ~6mi & 50 min from last lock, and I received a general lock in about 5 seconds, and a WAAS lock in 40 seconds. Note the system showed the weak GPS signal warning until the train came above ground and resumed operation without any intervention on my part.

 

While above ground heading north, I held the GPSR on a west facing windowsill. It was interesting to watch the system switch off from WAAS birds 35,48, & 51. Bird 51 was higest above the western horizon and had the most stable signal. I don't recall seeing 33 since the change but I may have missed it as the system seems to have a prefrence for the other WAAS birds, especially 51.

 

EPE on the train averaged about 25ft. once off the train, on the street and in the car it averaged in the mid to high teens. Even under tree cover and along hilly roads the EPE was good but naturally the WAAS came and went.

 

I did not see a significant difference in EPE during the brief or long periods when WAAS was lost. But overall performance seems to be better in addition to the elimination of the tunnel issue, and getting WAAS locks happens much, much faster now.

 

It'll be great when the whole WAAS network is up and running.

-BZ

Edited June 28, 2006 by Bikezilla

[Bikezilla]

Bikezilla,

Can you share your opinion on how the reception is with your 60CSX in Manhattan? I took my 60CS there a couple of years ago and it was a struggle to keep a lock with all of the skyscrapers. Do you see any accuracy issues with signals bouncing off of buildings or does it work well?

Andy: reception at times can be stellar and mediocre at others. It depends on how tight the street is. In the one way narrow streets it can be okay if there's good sky on either end of the block and you go it with a decent lock beforehand. If not it drops to big numbers over 50'. On wide streets and general areas it runs in the mid 20's. Overall I found it fine for navigation, but tricky for benchmarking...but I have almos no experience with benchmarking though.

[+myotis]

Newbie here, what exactly is the tunnel problem?

I have a tunnel nearby but no car but tunnel has a pedestrian walk way built in if one doesn't mind walking through a noisy echoey windy tunnel.

 

It is when, on 60/76 'x' series units (SIRF III), if the unit loses signal WITH WAAS ENABLED, and the unit moves some 'appreciable' distance it either never regains lock or regains it for a short period of time and then freezes up. If this happens, the only way to get up & running again is to power off/on again.

 

Happened to me last week in a Kroger store. I was testing the new 60csx, and I lost signal in the Kroger, after returning to the lot, it locked up. I had the 2.90 installed. I'll give it a test in the Eisenhower tunnel next Friday and see if it locks up now that I installed the new 2.60 version.

 

I will be going through it on Thursday

[Bikezilla]

Follow-up the trip into town was similar. Lock re-established ~5 seconds after coming out of the subway, no intervention on my part.

[Neo_Geo]

Yep! Tunnel problem is fixed for me too!

[8mmag]

THANKS FOR THE CONFIRMING REPORT Bikezilla!!! This IS great news.

 

Yep, the WAAS tunnel problem has most certainly been resolved.

 

I emerged from the tunnel ~6mi & 50 min from last lock, and I received a general lock in about 5 seconds, and a WAAS lock in 40 seconds. Note the system showed the weak GPS signal warning until the train came above ground and resumed operation without any intervention on my part.

 

-BZ

[+pdxmarathonman]

I have had almost no luck getting a WAAS lock. I can marginally get 47 and even more rarely 35.

 

Are these birds a little flaky? Or is it my west coast bias? Roughly at N45 W122

[+paulamur]

I have had almost no luck getting a WAAS lock. I can marginally get 47 and even more rarely 35.

 

Are these birds a little flaky? Or is it my west coast bias? Roughly at N45 W122

 

I live close to you, about an hour south. and I have no problems getting "d's" even inside my house. Just tried it this morning and within a couple of minutes I had a lock on 48. I never saw 48 or 51 until I upgraded to SW 2.60. This is with a 60Cx.

[+geobc]

I have had almost no luck getting a WAAS lock. I can marginally get 47 and even more rarely 35.

 

Are these birds a little flaky? Or is it my west coast bias? Roughly at N45 W122

I'm at N49 W122 and have no problems getting WAAS lock. It locks on about 1-2 min after getting lock on the satellites.

 

GeoBC

[8mmag]

I have had almost no luck getting a WAAS lock. I can marginally get 47 and even more rarely 35.

 

Are these birds a little flaky? Or is it my west coast bias? Roughly at N45 W122

 

Odd, I thought left coasters had the best chance for WAAS reception. All the WAAS birds I get - 51, 48, & occasionally 35, are SW of me and I think out over the Pacific. Since Beaverton is on the east side of the Coast Range, I'm guessing the Coast Range must be blocking your WAAS reception. Try up on top or somewhere on the west side of the CR and see what you get. I'm interested since I used to live NE or Vancouver, WA.

[pyt22fr]

Yep! Tunnel problem is fixed for me too!

 

I confirm also. Tunnel problem solved on my 60Csx.

 

pyt22fr

[+pdxmarathonman]

I have had almost no luck getting a WAAS lock. I can marginally get 47 and even more rarely 35.

 

Are these birds a little flaky? Or is it my west coast bias? Roughly at N45 W122

 

Odd, I thought left coasters had the best chance for WAAS reception. All the WAAS birds I get - 51, 48, & occasionally 35, are SW of me and I think out over the Pacific. Since Beaverton is on the east side of the Coast Range, I'm guessing the Coast Range must be blocking your WAAS reception. Try up on top or somewhere on the west side of the CR and see what you get. I'm interested since I used to live NE or Vancouver, WA.

I was out in east PDX today and didn't recall getting too many Ds on my sats page.

I had to settle for +/- 12ft accuracy

[+myotis]

I went through the Eisenhour/Johnson Tunnels on I-70 in CO on Thursday and today. After the mile through the tunnels, I was locked on within 2 seconds of exiting the tunnels both times.

[8mmag]

I went through the Eisenhour/Johnson Tunnels on I-70 in CO on Thursday and today. After the mile through the tunnels, I was locked on within 2 seconds of exiting the tunnels both times.

 

The fix IS CONFORMED !!! Thanks everyone for confirming this! And thank you Garmin/SIRF too!!

[+pdxmarathonman]

I am not a techno expert, can someone explain to me what are these numbers people are referring to when referring to WAAS? Do the satellites have numbers? Does that have any bearing on accuracy? I'm getting frustrated with my new CSx - when I cache with another person who has a CS his unit just takes me pretty much to the right area of the cache while mine jumps around and never really settles down to something that I can really trust. I have it on magnetic compass as suggested by Garmin and have all the latest updates, but it is very frustrating.

The satellite page (with the vertical bars) shows the number of the satellite below the bar, and in the horizon plot. More satellites locked means better accuracy.

 

I don't know how to address your 2nd issue

[+TheRoundings]

I guess we are drifting off topic here but anyway...

 

...mine jumps around and never really settles down to something that I can really trust. I have it on magnetic compass as suggested by Garmin and have all the latest updates, but it is very frustrating.

 

I also notice that when finding caches that my compass often bounces around quite erratically. I find it more useful to use my topo maps zoomed in and see where I am in realtion to the cache. I have tried calibrating the compass as well as holding it level but it still seems the same. Perhaps there are ways to set it up better.

 

Can someone post how they use the compass for caching....?

[+Munin]

I also notice that when finding caches that my compass often bounces around quite erratically. I find it more useful to use my topo maps zoomed in and see where I am in realtion to the cache. I have tried calibrating the compass as well as holding it level but it still seems the same. Perhaps there are ways to set it up better.

 

Can someone post how they use the compass for caching....?

Once you get close to the cache, the compass bearing isn't going to be very reliable. One way to think about it is to picture something like the following. Say you had perfect accuracy in your GPSr, and the cache hider had perfect accuracy, and you're standing directly on top of the cache. So in this fantasy world all the coordinates are right on the money, and your GPSr can perfectly track your every movement with absolute certainty. Take a step forwards - the bearing arrow would swing around and point behind you, right? Now take two steps backwards, and you'd expect the bearing arrow to swing around and now point in front of you. Picture similar small movements - just a few steps forward, backwards, left, right, all around the cache, and you'd expect to see the bearing arrow to go swinging all over the place. You're only making small changes in your position, but these trigger large changes in the relative direction between you and the cache.

 

Okay, now let's drop out of the non-existant "perfect coordinates" world, and into reality. Even if you're standing perfectly still, there's generally going to be fluctuations in the GPS signals (ionosphere, multipath, foliage, etc), and as the GPSr continues to interpret the signals and revise its estimate of your position, it'll come up with varying ideas of where you are relative to the cache - kind of like the mental experiment above where you were stepping around the cache. And with the same results - the closer you are to the target coordinates, the greater the effect of small positional changes on the indicated bearing to the coordinates. Having your position estimate jump by 10' isn't really a huge change - just a few paces, one or two thousandths of a minute in the displayed coords - but picture the effect this would have on the bearing calculations when you're within 20' of the cache coordinates - it could easily change the bearing by dozens of degrees.

 

The further away you are from the cache, the less influence these positional variations have on the bearing. When you're a mile from the cache you could have terrible reception, with your position bouncing around like a jumping bean that's chugged a triple expresso, but the overall efffect on the bearing computation would be negligable. (At one mile, your position would have to change over 90 feet to introduce one degree of difference in the bearing.)

 

So, keeping that in mind, here's how I use the compass while caching: I'll typically use it periodically on the way to the cache, most often to properly orient the map display when I've stopped moving - like if I've reached a trail intersection and want to get a feel for which choice seems more likely to go to the cache, or a quick pause to double-check that the trail I'm on really does still seem to be heading the right way. When I get within 0.1 miles or so of the cache, I'll often toggle the compass on and leave it running, and frequently glance at the Compass display screen as I continue along. By watching the bearing changes as I get closer, I'll be able to see if the cache is near the trail or a ways off to one side. Once I get within 50'-30' of the cache, I'll take a last look at the bearing/range info, see if there's any obvious cache hides in that area (potentially hollow logs or stumps, etc), then toggle the compass back off and start my search. Basically at that point I'll be getting into the zone where every little positional hiccup translates into a relatively large bearing change, so the compass isn't going to be of much assistance. That's also getting into the range where it's best to just put away the GPSr entirely and start using your eyes.

 

I might whip out the GPSr and recheck range/bearing periodically during the search if I've noticed that reception conditions were particularly poor on the way over to the cache - lousy accuracy, jumpy coords, frequent loss of lock, etc. (I use one of the data field windows to display the accuracy, just to get a feel for how good/bad conditions are.) Sometimes conditions will improve (since the satellites are constantly moving), so you might find that the GPSr's estimate of your position has changed significantly, and you might see that "ground zero" is now dozens of yards away from where you first thought it was. If that happens and the accuracy estimates are significantly better than when you started the search, then it might be time to recenter the search around another area. For a large jump like that, I might toggle on the compass on and off again to help me see where "ground zero" has scampered off to.