How Often Do Coin Mintings Go "bad"

[+UOTrackers]

I wrote earlier this week asking what I should do about the problems with my coin, to which I got a great response and asked that the coin be made the way it was designed. That said and done I thought all I had to do was sit back and wait. I was wrong. The ones who actually mint the coins, (not to be confused with the one who sold them to me) can't figure out how to make them right. So they will be made as is and I'm getting a discount. I can live with it because now our coin has a kind of funny story. But I've noticed mentionings of coin mishaps before and I was wondering how often this occurs and perhaps could we make a list of where it occurs? Not that I blame Rusty, I don't! I still say hes an absolutely awesome guy to work with! I'm just curious.

 

So tell me about your coin mishaps (even if you don't mention the name) what happened and how was it fixed?

[+dhenninger]

Samples were the wrong color. Color number did not match the color on the drawing. Finished coins were the correct color.

 

ALLWAYS get samples made first! (if you can)

[+fox-and-the-hound]

If they can't "figure it out" then I'd be happy to give you a design fix that wouldn't cut off the ends of the sign if it helps.

 

OT: We had color issues, metal issues and quality issues in the beginning. Everything took a little time to fix, but the end result was very good.

Edited June 13, 2006 by fox-and-the-hound

[+ozymandiasism]

To answer your previous thread, I believe it is very difficult to create the "blend in" effect on a coin, especially one that involves color.

 

My comment is solely based on my own mental visualization. Now I have no experience in the actual coin manufacturing process, but I have a hard time visualizing how it can be done on a coin like that. The green on the signs simply won't look right "disappearing" to the ring. Now if silver is the only color on the coin, then you might be able to create a mold blending into the ring.

 

I think the "mistake" gives the coin an interesting look. If you insist, the coin mint can try to match what you want. Since you have a middle man, you should negotiate with him as he's the liaison. Did you specify the blending effect to him? If so, then it is his fault for not translating the message clearly to the coin mint.

 

I think a discount is not a bad solution if the mint can't figure out how to make the coin the way you want them. However, you will always feel like it is not the design you desired.

Edited June 13, 2006 by ozymandiasism

[+LadeBear68]

Why would you settle for something that wasn't done the way you wanted? It is my understanding that the individuals that sell coins have different manufacturers. There are many threads about coin sellers and the problems with the end result, either the coloring was bad, the metal was not what was ordered or the coins were just crappy looking. If the person that sent you the proof can't do what you want go to another seller, but don't settle for something you did not ask for in the beginning. I agree with a previous poster that you won't be happy when you receive the coins because they aren't what you asked for. You really need to look at the quality of different coins and decide which seller you want to go with, there is a world of difference between some of them.

[+UOTrackers]

Why would you settle for something that wasn't done the way you wanted? It is my understanding that the individuals that sell coins have different manufacturers. There are many threads about coin sellers and the problems with the end result, either the coloring was bad, the metal was not what was ordered or the coins were just crappy looking. If the person that sent you the proof can't do what you want go to another seller, but don't settle for something you did not ask for in the beginning. I agree with a previous poster that you won't be happy when you receive the coins because they aren't what you asked for. You really need to look at the quality of different coins and decide which seller you want to go with, there is a world of difference between some of them.

The coin itself and the quality are beautiful! I don't think that if I had even mentioned it anyone would even notice what went wrong. I was given several choices to "fix" the issue and after talking to my husband we decided to leave the coins as is. They could have been fixed, it would have cost time, probably more than the 10 days it was first thought to be. I was even given the choice to alter the design slightly (my idea) at the cost of the in between. I thought this would be the best choice for everyone and it's not like the coin is completely wrong.

 

The point of this thread however was that I was curious how often these type of things happen. For example I have a set of Loggerhead turtles and in that set was the "incorrect" coin. It's missing it's epoxy coating. Apparently they receieve all of them that way and they all had to be reminted. They had tracking numbers so I have 2 coins with the same number. I've heard other such stories so I was just curious is all.

[gridlox]

Maybe the mint is just not seeing what you are wanting to do?

 

I recently was working with someone on a coin design and knew the 3-D aspects of part of the coin would be confusing, so I included a couple of cross section views with arrows pointing to where the cross section was from on the proof.

 

Maybe if you can get whoever did your art to give you something like that to show the mint, they can get you what you want.

 

I hate to see you having to settle for something your not happy with.

 

D-man

 

edit:spelling

Edited June 14, 2006 by gridlox

[+Mcdoodles & Family]

Not that I blame Rusty, I don't! I still say hes an absolutely awesome guy to work with! I'm just curious.

 

So tell me about your coin mishaps (even if you don't mention the name) what happened and how was it fixed?

 

The Mcdoodles Geocoin

 

Well our coins were also made through Rusty.

When they came in almost a month after the expected delivery date. They did not glow in the dark

All 500 of them were (are) wrong. It said glow in the dark on the proof we approved, but we settled for a offer from Rusty.

 

If we had to do it all again. We would have not presold anything and we would have waited to get our coins corected. Live and learn I guess

[+ltleelim]

My wife and I are making a geocoin. The process has been interesting. Several rounds of the design phase were spent fixing spelling mistakes. (The mint is in China.) The front was supposed to be polished, but the actual coins were sandblasted. The design had a particular 3D shape (and I also submitted several cross sections and 3D renderings), but the actual coins weren't quite the same shape. The geocoin company was fine. It was the mint that had all the problems.

 

If you were to look closely at the details, I would bet that there are many more errors than you would think just from reading this forum.

 

If you draw your art by hand or don't even submit any art, there's a lot more leeway because the initial concept is vague to begin with. If you start with fewer specifics, there are fewer details that can get screwed up.

 

On the other hand, if you submit precise digital art (or even worse, a precise 3D shape), things will probably get lost in translation. When you realize how much work is done by hand at the mint, you'll probably accept some of the mistakes as a fact of life.

 

An example:

You submit digital art. The overseas mint draws its own digital art for approval. You would think they would just copy and paste your original art and add the labels and notations they need. Nope. They eyeball your art and redraw it from scratch on their computer for who knows what reason. No matter how many corrections you make, the inevitable result is a design that is similar but not quite the same as the original design.

 

For those of you that have submitted digital vector art (Illustrator, DXF, etc.) and pay attention to the details, have you dealt with a mint that uses it directly instead of redrawing it? If so, then I'd like to know which geocoin companies and mint partners are capable of this. (If you know what I'm talking about, then you know. If you're not sure, then don't worry about it.)

 

Another example:

As far as I know, all 3D dies are cut by hand. I'm not aware of any geocoin company that will accept and use a 3D model for die making. This means that if you have a precise 3D design, it's impossible to get an exact match. (However, there are ways to work around it, if you have the time and the money. That's advanced geocoin making... )

 

Lloyd

[+ozymandiasism]

My wife and I are making a geocoin. The process has been interesting. Several rounds of the design phase were spent fixing spelling mistakes. (The mint is in China.) The front was supposed to be polished, but the actual coins were sandblasted. The design had a particular 3D shape (and I also submitted several cross sections and 3D renderings), but the actual coins weren't quite the same shape. The geocoin company was fine. It was the mint that had all the problems.

 

If you were to look closely at the details, I would bet that there are many more errors than you would think just from reading this forum.

 

If you draw your art by hand or don't even submit any art, there's a lot more leeway because the initial concept is vague to begin with. If you start with fewer specifics, there are fewer details that can get screwed up.

 

On the other hand, if you submit precise digital art (or even worse, a precise 3D shape), things will probably get lost in translation. When you realize how much work is done by hand at the mint, you'll probably accept some of the mistakes as a fact of life.

 

An example:

You submit digital art. The overseas mint draws its own digital art for approval. You would think they would just copy and paste your original art and add the labels and notations they need. Nope. They eyeball your art and redraw it from scratch on their computer for who knows what reason. No matter how many corrections you make, the inevitable result is a design that is similar but not quite the same as the original design.

 

For those of you that have submitted digital vector art (Illustrator, DXF, etc.) and pay attention to the details, have you dealt with a mint that uses it directly instead of redrawing it? If so, then I'd like to know which geocoin companies and mint partners are capable of this. (If you know what I'm talking about, then you know. If you're not sure, then don't worry about it.)

 

Another example:

As far as I know, all 3D dies are cut by hand. I'm not aware of any geocoin company that will accept and use a 3D model for die making. This means that if you have a precise 3D design, it's impossible to get an exact match. (However, there are ways to work around it, if you have the time and the money. That's advanced geocoin making... )

 

Lloyd

 

 

Well said! Don't be afraid to be as specific as possible. Use arrows and text to indicate what area should be raised and which part should be colored. That will certainly eliminate a lot of aggavations and confusions.

 

It is also wise to ask what type of digital formats work best with the mint. Avoid recreating artowkr if possible. I submitted a jpeg to the coint mint and they actually coverted it to a vertor file (illustrator/coreldraw). This is the reason she provided:

 

For production need, we sometimes have to adjust the artwork, that’s why it’s always good to have a vector file. Then we print it out, develop a film for etching a 200% carving board, trace the artwork from the carving board onto the mold by hand, then finally we hand carve the 3D part on the mold.

 

They did a GREAT job converting the jpeg to a vector file. I received the samples from them yesterday. My coin design is extremely complex and they did a fairly good job. I can see certain small details missing but there're only so much you can do on a 1.75" coin. I might have them fix a thing or two here and there, but overall, I am happy with the outcome.

 

this is the jpeg drawing

Drawing

 

this is the samples

Samples

 

Contact me directly if you need additinoal info

[+ltleelim]

Well said! Don't be afraid to be as specific as possible. Use arrows and text to indicate what area should be raised and which part should be colored. That will certainly eliminate a lot of aggavations and confusions.

I agree. You should be as specific as possible, if possible. But as I pointed out in my examples, currently there will always be some discrepancies no matter how specific you are. This is because of the way they work. I hope this improves in the future.

 

It is also wise to ask what type of digital formats work best with the mint. Avoid recreating artowkr if possible. I submitted a jpeg to the coint mint and they actually coverted it to a vertor file (illustrator/coreldraw).

That is to be expected. Bitmap art is inherently jagged. Vector art is almost always preferred.

 

When I said that an overseas mint will redraw your digital art, this happens even when you submit digital vector art, in my experience.

 

To repeat my question for those of you experienced with making geocoins: Are there any geocoin companies and associated mints that will use the digital vector art you submit without redrawing it? (You would only know if you submitted digital vector art and you looked closely at the die art sent back for your approval.) They would save themselves a lot of time if they learned how to cut and paste. It would also dramatically reduce the number of mistakes.

 

Lloyd

[gridlox]

They would save themselves a lot of time if they learned how to cut and paste. It would also dramatically reduce the number of mistakes.

******************************************

(I'm not disagreeing with you, or knocking you, but only presenting one MAJOR reason as to why they would not just "cut and paste" as you say. The following is from my own experience in using vector files in the sign industry during the past 12 years.)

******************************************

 

(EDIT:OK, I can see this has gotten pretty long. So take a bathroom break and grab a cold drink if your gonna read the whole thing!! )

 

But then you have to look at it from their point of view...

Who's to say if the vector art was created correctly for "their" method of usage.

 

I see this so often at the sign shop where I work.

A good bit of our signage is made from cut vinyl and laid down in multiple layers to create pictures.

 

When a customer calls to order a sign and says, "We have our logo in a vector file."

We ALWAYS take that with a grain of salt.

I would dare to say that 70% of the time the vector file they have is useless to us because it hasn't been prepared properly for "our" usage of it.

We can "normally" just recreate a design that we know is going to work for us in "less time" than it would take to repair the "unusable" vector file. Sometimes we get lucky and get a good file! HAPPY DAY!!

 

Just because a design is created in one of the vector illustration programs like Adobe Illustrator, CorelDRAW, or Macromedia Freehand does NOT mean it's a usable vector file.

 

Sure, it prints out nice and pretty on your desktop printer. But, so will a properly prepared pen and ink drawing that has been scanned in.

The magic of a properly prepared vector file is that is is created with lines and points that are mathmatically projected onto a drawing area. No matter if its 1/4 inch small or enlarged to fit the side of a building, it will still have clean clear crisp lines!!

 

ART CLASS TIME!! Vector Art 101

 

99% of the time, a vector file that is no good is because of the following two (2) reasons:

 

(1)Overlapping objects

Take a simple line of script text.

When a line if text is typed into the illustration program each letter is an individual object. Without some modifications, the letters will overlap each other and created void areas where they touch(overlap).

Take a look at the example below.

The top line is how it looks when you type it in.

(2nd Line)But, let's take away the fill and you can see how the pieces overlap.

(3rd Line)When you convert it back, you can see the voids that are created by the overlaps

(4th Line)Let's take away the fill and Combine(or Weld) the letters to each other and you can see that the ovelaps are no longer there.

(5th Line) When you add the fill back in, you can see there is no more voids and it creates as smooth clean object without any white areas.

 

 

(2)Using outlines instead of contours

 

(The following images actually use both overlaps and improper use of outlines)

 

This is the most common problem with an improperly prepared vector file.

One of the great things about the major illustration programs mentioned above is that they let you create files that can be "printed" with relative ease. Want to give something an outline to make it stand out more, just click away and it's got an outline. If the outline isn't heavy enough, just tell the program to make it fatter. WOW, that looks great!

But here lies the problem. With signs (AND COINS ), we are working in a 3-D environment. Those fat lines on your screen and printed out on your printer are meaningless.

To have a fatter outline, you must create an object that "is" the outline.

See the following image. On the top image, the outline of the hotdog is nice and bold. BUT, when you view it in it's true vector form you see that it doesn't even look like it's supposed to. You can also see where the overlapping objects will present a problem!

 

Now look at the image below.

Here I have created the outline for the hotdog using an object. Plus removed all of the excess overlapping objects to create a vector file that is usable.

While the hot dog on top in both images look the same, as you can see when seen in their true vector format, they are nothing alike!

 

Hope this gives everyone a better understanding of the art used to create your coins.

 

Test will be this coming Monday. Bring a #2 pencil and 3 sheets of notebook paper.

 

Prof. Gridlox

 

Edited June 16, 2006 by gridlox

[ParentsofSAM]

WOW...thanks Grid.

 

That more than I EVER wanted to know about computer graphics.

 

I think I will fail the test....can I just get my mom to send a note??

 

But seriously.....it is good to know this info.....so now I will somewaht understand when I tell the guy at the shirt shop...just to do it. I will understand somewhat why he says he can not do it or why it is taking time to get it done.

Edited June 16, 2006 by ParentsofSAM

[+ltleelim]

(I'm not disagreeing with you, or knocking you, but only presenting one MAJOR reason as to why they would not just "cut and paste" as you say. The following is from my own experience in using vector files in the sign industry during the past 12 years.)

If you read a few posts back, you'll see an explanation of how at least one overseas mint traces the art by hand onto the mold. I'm guessing that your typical sign making process is more advanced than this.

 

(1)Overlapping objects

 

(2)Using outlines instead of contours

These are good points. (And I was aware of them. My design didn't have these issues. I was originally looking into having a prototype made by CNC machining.)

 

But the above two issues are really only problems if you're using computer controlled equipment to cut your dies. This is far beyond the current capabilities of all the geocoin companies and their associated mints. As far as I know, they all cut the dies by hand. If you are just tracing a projected image, it doesn't matter if objects overlap or if strokes have thicknesses. Heck, they could even trace bitmaps if they wanted to.

 

Anyway, while I think some cutting and pasting would save them some time and reduce errors, they have bigger problems to deal with. The original poster and others have mentioned cases where the shape was wrong, the color was wrong, or the finish was wrong. Those are much bigger blunders.

 

Lloyd

[+Kealia]

I think the bottom line is that you need a good middle-man to work with.

They should be adding value to the transaction rather than jsut being a middle-man who marks up the coins.

 

If they aren't willing to (or can't) act on your behalf with the actual mint, then what good are they? You may as well be dealing with the mint yourselves then and getting the wholesale cost versus paying the reatil markup.

 

It's easy for someone to set up a shop and call themselves a coin maker, seller, etc. but the value comes in the service they provide: letting you know what can and can't be done, talking to the mint and being your advocate to get things right, doing the artwork, etc.

 

To stay MORE on topic: errors happen - have samples made. I did for the first coin I did a long time ago (Santa Cruz Geocachers) and I'm VERY glad I got samples first.

 

I got samples of the first coin I did with Coins and Pins afterwards and haven't needed to since. They've done everything mentioned above and if something were to go wrong, they'd be the first to step in and make it right.