Would This Be Proper To Consider?

[RubiconJW]

I've dug & searched but still have a question about the "properness" of establishing a cache inside a place of business. Let me explain:

 

A good friend of mine has a small re-cycling store that carries everything imaginable from clothes to dishes to small appliances etc... stuff thats to good to dump & might be needed by others. We had a long disscussion about Geocaching & she was very interested but given her age & health can't actively participate in the hobby.

In the course of this disscussion I mentioned having a cache in her store but I wasn't sure of the rules regarding this & would check it out. She was all in favor of the idea so I appeal to the forum for your thoughts & opinions.

 

Of course this would only be accessable during normal business hours.

 

So what's the word on a cache of this nature??

 

Thanks all.

 

JW

[+BigWhiteTruck]

I don't think it will get approved. It's too close to commercial in nature.

[Keystone]

Here is the relevant Listing Guideline:

 

Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

 

It's important to note that intent alone doesn't decide the issue. A cache can be perceived as commercial without being intended to come across that way. Thus, reviewers err on the side of caution. While the definition is somewhat fuzzy and subjective, since each cache description and location is unique, most reviewers would agree that a cache inside a for-profit business would at least be *perceived* as commercial. Personally I say "no" to such submissions as a matter of course.

 

Once you move outside the business, the scales tilt the other way. Finding a cache in a business parking lot or the woods behind a store does not make the ordinary geocacher feel pressured to buy something or to view advertising, merchandise, etc. It's their choice whether to stop inside for a cup of coffee, or just get back into the car to go to the next cache.

 

As recommended in the quoted Guideline, the proper procedure is to write to Groundspeak first to seek permission for a cache perceived to be of a commercial nature. Include full details of the proposed cache, such as describing the hiding place and method, and what the cache page would say. Then if you obtain permission, state this in a "Note to Reviewer." In rare cases, permission is in fact granted.

 

You may have found one or more caches that were hidden inside business premises. There are several explanations for this. The cache could pre-date the commercial cache guidelines and is thus grandfathered. Or, if there's no way to tell from the cache description that the cache is inside the business, the reviewer may publish it without knowing that. Often, such caches then trigger complaints from finders. It is better to deal with the issue upfront in the review process.

 

I hope that this is helpful. Thanks for asking in advance!

[funinthealps]

If the cache were "inside" it wouldn't be conducive to caching because of how most handheld GPS peter out once indoors. Personally I don't think I'd persue an indoor cache. And, I can see the conflict in the Guidelines.

 

However, a good friend of mine has an awesome cache located outside his pizza place on the side of Schweitzer Mtn. Room With a View where he and his staff can watch people search for the cache.

 

Sure, sometimes people will come in for a slice and a beer after finding the cache but in no way is there any pressure or connection to the two.

 

Maybe this would work better for you.

[+yumitori]

I really don't like looking for caches clearly associated with businesses, especially ones inside a building. I get enough advertising in my life without someone, however well-meaning, interjecting it into my recreational time.

[+Renegade Knight]

Keystones answer should be framed. That is exactly how I have seen this play out over time.

 

Night Stalker tried for a virtual inside a business that had some interesting aviation displays. The point was the displays not the business. It was not approved for exactly the reaons Keystone highlighted. Had he hidden a cache in the parking lot, odds are it would have gotten the nod.

 

With a slight tweak to the cache I suspect your friend could enjoy cachers looking for the cache. Just outside.

[Keystone]

Keystones answer should be framed. That is exactly how I have seen this play out over time.

Wow! That was very nice of you to say, RK. Sometimes I wonder whether it's worth the time I take to write up summaries on issues like this. If people find it helpful, I'm happy to do so.

 

Of course I am more used to posts that say "Keystone should be framed."

[+ranger-rob]

Off topic but on topic at the same time ... State and National parks (at least some of them) require an entrance fee. I *think* they're more "break even" than "for profit" but the end result is the same and if pushed to the conservative side (which I'm not implying should happen) caches located inside the gates could be construed as directly advertizing as the description would show the location to be inside the grounds of such-and-such National/State Park. Again I am *not* insinuating that said parks shouldn't be eliglible cache locations. On the contrary, it is my firm belief that there aren't enough geocaches in National/State parkes where the foot traffic wouldn't overly disrupt the ecology. If it's "public" land then "the public" should be encouraged to visit them. My question is simply this. What's the difference between a park with a required entry fee and a business that, in return for traffic, allows a cache on/in their property. If I'm not mistaken, isn't there (or used to be) a cache inside a grocery store?

Again, I'm not defending the OP's position, merely asking a question.

[Keystone]

Public parks and other government-owned land where an entrance fee is charged are not covered by the commercial cache guideline because the entrance fee is for governmental purposes, not commercial purposes. What are you being pressured to buy? Fresh air? I'll take 200 gallons, thanks.

 

We do ask that any entrance fees be clearly disclosed on the cache page. Even better, use the "Fee Required" attribute, so that people who don't want to pay those fees can exclude such caches from their pocket queries.

 

In my prior post, I've already answered the question of "what about this one cache that I found in a [restaurant, bar, coffee house, ice cream stand, etc.]" The common categories include (1) grandfathered, (2)undisclosed on the cache page, (3) changed following publication, or (4) granted an exception. Once again, the Guidelines help provide the answer:

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Keystone

[RubiconJW]

I can see where this could be abused.. no doubt.. & hence my asking before making a total fool of myself.

I don't feel the commercial aspect of this ever entered either of our minds.. She's just a nice grandmotherly type that loves people and the social interface that tending her store brings. AND the 'muggle free" inviroment was rather appealing too since all parties are involved to some degree.

Anyway folks.. Thanks for the clairification.. I do appreciate the help.

 

..JW..

[+ranger-rob]

Public parks and other government-owned land where an entrance fee is charged are not covered by the commercial cache guideline because the entrance fee is for governmental purposes, not commercial purposes. What are you being pressured to buy? Fresh air? I'll take 200 gallons, thanks.

 

We do ask that any entrance fees be clearly disclosed on the cache page. Even better, use the "Fee Required" attribute, so that people who don't want to pay those fees can exclude such caches from their pocket queries.

 

Since the Federally managed national forest that's within what I consider my "local" area doesn't require an entrance fee then it really isn't an issue but they do require a permit (still free I think) to place a cache. Several of the near by State recreation areas do require an entrance fee, as I found to my (almost) embarassment as I looked at the page and didn't see diddly about an entrance fee (only camping and boat launch) none the less I suspected as much and you've confirmed my suspicions.

 

In my prior post, I've already answered the question of "what about this one cache that I found in a [restaurant, bar, coffee house, ice cream stand, etc.]" The common categories include (1) grandfathered, (2)undisclosed on the cache page, (3) changed following publication, or (4) granted an exception. Once again, the Guidelines help provide the answer:

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

Once again, I'm not wanting to start an argument, just get a question answered and I'm definitely not going down the "you let him do it, why can't I?" path!