Discussion On Charity Geocoin Discussions

[+Renegade Knight]

After two threads were closed on geocoins in the private market I think it's worth discussing if threads like that should be closed.

 

The key parts of the guidelines are below:

 

While the intention of this forum is to discuss the Geocaching related aspects of geocoins (movements, tracking…); we realize that the trading and collecting of them is quite popular.

...

This forum may be used for personal selling, trading or giving away of items. Geocaching organizations are permitted to use this forum for purposes of selling, trading or giving away of geocoins.

No company or business postings/advertising is allowed. Charity Solicitations are also not acceptable. Groundspeak reserves the right to determine if an item for sale is inappropriate for this board....

 

As I see it discussing the sale of a coin on eBay, in the classifieds, at a charity auction, in a Navicache etc. are all valid. That's where geocoins go and they don't stop being a geocoin if they should happen to travel outside a cache or cache mojo collection. Commercial coins from commercial companies also recieve a lot of air time.

 

The only way I see the guidelines being crossed is if someone SPAMMED their acution which is just another way to say "solicited". However if anyone else should choose to discuss it they are not soliciting. Especially since who gets the money is secondary to the coin being on sale via a means that is the only way some of us will get the coin.

 

However the guidelines also says that GC is the sole judge of what's fitting and not. So I'd like to ask where the line is on commercial coins that have been announced in these threads. If we crossed it on charity auctions then we have crossed it on the commercial coins, and if we haven't, then perhaps the lockdown on threads (when it's only posts that have offeneded the rule) was a bit harsh.

 

Opinions?

[+Kealia]

I agree with RK on this. I think the Compass Rose is a good example of a purely commercial coin being posted on here and that wasn't shut down.

 

I understand that TPTB don't want to get into the business of supporting every charity out there and that other threads have been shut down discussing it as well.

 

Also, these coins are coming from people's personal collections, but the money itself going to charity.

 

I understand that the example mentioned (Compass Rose) may have slipped through the cracks and that the mods can't catch everything - but I think this does warrant further discussions.

 

Maybe we can get a few mods (and possibly Jeremy) to comment here on the thinking about not allowing these eBay charity auctions on here?

 

Personally, I've found most of thier decisions to be fair. Would just like to hear more on this topic....

[+AtlantaGal]

I don't have anything elaborate to add, but I was sorry to see the threads locked. I felt that the charity wording in the rules didn't really apply to individual coins owned by a person and auctioned for a good cause, but applied to something like the Hurricane Katrina coins (and I don't have any problem with them either). I don't know. I just don't see any harm in discussing the charity auctions or in the auctioning of coins for a specific charity. I think it's an example of geocachers doing something really good as a group.

[+Ladycacher]

I don't have anything elaborate to add, but I was sorry to see the threads locked. I felt that the charity wording in the rules didn't really apply to individual coins owned by a person and auctioned for a good cause, but applied to something like the Hurricane Katrina coins (and I don't have any problem with them either). I don't know. I just don't see any harm in discussing the charity auctions or in the auctioning of coins for a specific charity. I think it's an example of geocachers doing something really good as a group.

I agree, it does give geocachers a positive view which is REALLY needed in some areas and states. I would think that positive actions for geocaching would be good no matter what really. I wonder just how much money has been donated to charity due to geocoins?

[+budd-rdc]

Personally, I just had problems with links to eBay. To be fair, Groundspeak should be getting referral fees for them.

 

As for Geocoins being sold commercially, or for charity, I have no problems with that since the Geocoin Discussions forum is the appropriate place to publicize. There has never been problems with them being sold directly, or through established channels.

[+LaPaglia]

I don't have anything elaborate to add, but I was sorry to see the threads locked. I felt that the charity wording in the rules didn't really apply to individual coins owned by a person and auctioned for a good cause, but applied to something like the Hurricane Katrina coins (and I don't have any problem with them either). I don't know. I just don't see any harm in discussing the charity auctions or in the auctioning of coins for a specific charity. I think it's an example of geocachers doing something really good as a group.

The wording is clear.

 

To ensure that this forum is a success, please respect our ground rules when it comes to selling and trading of coins:

 

This forum may be used for personal selling, trading or giving away of items. Geocaching organizations are permitted to use this forum for purposes of selling, trading or giving away of geocoins.

No company or business postings/advertising is allowed. Charity Solicitations are also not acceptable. Groundspeak reserves the right to determine if an item for sale is inappropriate for this board.

Those choosing to participate in an exchange on this board take full responsibility for any consequences of that exchange. Groundspeak is in no way involved in the sale or trading of items on this board and will not be held responsible or liable in any way for quality issues, fraud or any default of transfer on the part of the buyer or seller.

Individual negotiations or information exchanges should take place through private e-mail or telephone correspondence, not on this board. Please use the communication tools provided on the site or private email

 

First and foremost remember these rules are for this forum and are therefore different and in addition to the regular forum guidelines.

 

This sentance is a complete thought, "No company or business postings/advertising is allowed." This is also a complete thought, "Charity Solicitations are also not acceptable." It doesn't say certain types are not acceptable is says they are not acceptable. Therefore it applies to apply to individual coins owned by a person and auctioned for a good cause, and to something like the Hurricane Katrina coins. This is the final thought that is complete in and of its self. "Groundspeak reserves the right to determine if an item for sale is inappropriate for this board." That is an Ace in the hole. It trumps everything.

 

Discussing this rule, note is says rule not guideline therefore less flexible, is fine. These are discussion boards. The above is my discussion on this matter. The most important thing to remember is that it is not states as a guideline but as a rule and therefore it is more exact than a simple guideline. As to the other threads that have been mentioned it maybe that until now they have been flying under the radar and that is why they were not closed.

 

Thank you

Michael

Edited November 22, 2005 by LaPaglia

[+AtlantaGal]

The wording is clear.

 

I disagree. It's a generalized, blanket statement written in lawyer-jargon. It obviously wasn't written with anything specific in mind, but made just general enough so that it could be applied where chosen. This discussion isn't just about whether this "rule" exists or not, it's also about WHY it exists. I'd still like to see a real explaination for that one from someone in charge.

[PCFrog]

To me it comes down to when is a person who is selling a personal coin for charity reason becomes a spokesman for charity or a business.

 

It is an obscure line to define and even point out. As some said it could be in the wording, how the coin is being sold, or the amount of attention it is given.

 

Did I give an answer here? NO

Is there a solution given? NO

 

Like all laws and rules it is up to interpretation to the situation at hand by those who perceive it under current social order.

[+Team Rampant Lion]

Why does whatever happens to the funds as a result of a sale make any difference to GC.com? These are not direct charity solicitations, they are direct offers to purchase coins as are most of the other offers on this forum. If the owner wants to disclose what he/she intends to do with the proceeds from the coin sale, why does that change the status?

[Keystone]

Hello,

 

As someone who was involved when Groundspeak developed the supplemental guidelines for this forum, I can say with some confidence that the words "Charity Solicitations are also not acceptable" were included thoughtfully and not just "tossed in there."

 

Please give the moderating team an opportunity to discuss this further with Groundspeak and perhaps either a moderator or a Groundspeak employee will provide further guidance. Given the upcoming holiday and other events on the calendar of those who need to be involved in that discussion, please don't expect a swift response.

 

In the meantime, I encourage everyone to post any views they may have on this subject. I know that Eartha, myself and perhaps other moderators will read your comments with interest.

[+Renegade Knight]

...This forum may be used for personal selling, trading or giving away of items. Geocaching organizations are permitted to use this forum for purposes of selling, trading or giving away of geocoins. ...

You are right. The wording is clear. We can sell coins here. We can discuss the sales of coins here. Where the money goes is quite frankly secondary and if it's not disclosed we wouldn't even be discussing where the line between trading and selling vs. charity lies.

[SlytherinAlex]

In the meantime, I encourage everyone to post any views they may have on this subject. I know that Eartha, myself and perhaps other moderators will read your comments with interest.

I said it before, it's kind of strange that coins can be sold on this forum for personal gain, but any mention of one being sold for charitable purposes results in the thread being closed.

 

As far as I'm concerend that sends out the wrong message. Or does it?

 

The forum rules are certainly clear, but that doesn't make them right.

[+SunshineGang]

Why does whatever happens to the funds as a result of a sale make any difference to GC.com?  These are not direct charity solicitations, they are direct offers to purchase coins as are most of the other offers on this forum.  If the owner wants to disclose what he/she intends to do with the proceeds from the coin sale, why does that change the status?

I assume the big fear is that the forums could get spammed with commercial and charitable advertisements.

 

While I applaud all those selling coins for charity. I don't want to see tons of new threads every day saying look at this auction, look at that auction. Even if it is for charity.

 

Now on occasion if people what to start a discusion of "Holy cow can you believe this one?" that would be one thing. but if a person is posting to promote an auction for thier gain or thier charities gain then it is just plain spam.

[+AtlantaGal]

Now on occasion if people what to start a discusion of "Holy cow can you believe this one?" that would be one thing. but if a person is posting to promote an auction for thier gain or thier charities gain then it is just plain spam.

Well originally, that's what was being done in the "look what's on ebay" thread. There were only 3 times anything charity related was posted outside of that one thread. I too wouldn't want to see tons of separate threads, each on a different charity auction, but keeping them all contained in 1 thread shouldn't have been a problem. Not to mention, that thread wasn't JUST about charity auctions. Now I don't know if we can start another ebay thread to discuss coin auctions in general or not, and that's a shame also.

[+Hula Bum]

I agree. Obviously, if it's not allowed, then it's not allowed, but if something is kept in a contained thread, then if you're not interested in it, you don't have to read the thread. Seems like a perfect way for everyone win.

 

I certainly understand the holidays and being busy, at some point I would be interested though in hearing the intent behind the rule. Not asking for a justification, this is their board and they can make up any rules they want, just curious that's all.

[+Renegade Knight]

...The forum rules are certainly clear, but that doesn't make them right....

I really don't think they are clear when it comes to geocoins. They are borrowed from the main forums and cache guidelines.

 

The Katrina coin was 100% charity when it was first made. That is exactly the original intent of the anti soliciting guideline. So that people would not solicit for those kinds of coins in the forums. Now the Katrina coin will forever and always be a "Charity Geocoin" because that's why it was made but now it's just a catagory of coin, and the secondary market of trades and sales is all about collecting. The charity purpose is gone.

 

Selling any particular coin and donating the proceedes to charity is a new twist. The coin typically isn't a charity coin, the proceeds though are. Regardless it's just another coin for sale on eBay and one of the few ways to acquire them if you don't buy them when they first come out, or trade for it later.

[+dhenninger]

As part of the group that produced the Katrina Coin, we accepted the forum ban on fund raising and TRIED to stay out of the forums. I respect the decision of TPTB and most of the forum posts reguarding this coin were made by others. I don't know how this could be avoided. Like RK said, these coins are now in a secondary market (collecting) stage of their existance. So i would think their existance know should be akin to any other personal/event/organizational coin.

 

Sorry if that makes no sense