Cancelled Premium Membership

3.9k · October 27, 2005

As a cacher, I see an event published on geocachig geocaching event and there is a mention of orienteering course on that page.

When we show up, it's all about orienteering. Folks are trying to sell me maps and compasses. Nowhere to be seen is a group of cachers. Nowhere is a log book.

Sorry, it doesn't seem like geocaching. I would be ticked to have been led into this. I think I would rather be lifting lamp post skirts at Walmart.

/rant

Yes they are different sports. Orienteering is about finding the spot as quickly and efficiently as possible, verifying your find using a paper punch or electronic punch and moving on to the next location, while maintaining a total awareness of your position on a map while moving at your top speed. Competitive participants run alone and thus you will not see groups working together except for instructional purposes. Our punch card or electronic punch is our log book.. it verifies we were there with a few holes in a card or some data on a chip. I happen to like both activities, others may only have an interest in one. Actually there is a rule in Orienteering prohibiting any electronic devices while competing..ie altimeters, gps, walkie talkies.. etc, but our group is also interested in teaching anyone about how to navigate. We do programs for scout groups, home school students, outdoor clubs, adult schools, state park programs, and the like. It is a way to promote the sport and also a way to get land managers involved. Orienteering clubs are constantly being asked.. often begged... to map public lands and use them, a far cry from the hassles we sometimes have in placing a cache. If a trip to Walmart is an adventure, then go for it but putting down a sport which you don't really understand is as lame as a lamp post cache.

Good. I am glad you see where I was headed. They are different sports.

The other thing I was trying to portray was that many of these events that are submitted are "masked" to make it sound like geocaching. I am not saying that this one was masked, I am saying that some are. If it's not geocaching, then folks.. don't make it sound like it is. If someone feels like they need to mask the main event so they can put a smiley in thier placed caches column, then I would rather be hunting lame caches than attending a faux-event.

For the most part, this one is straight forward. But it is orienteering. Sure, some cachers may be interested, but the main event is not geocaching.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

Exactly... they are different and if Geocaching.com chooses not to do combination events that is their decision. I personally feel is is an ill-advised one, but I am sure both organizations will survive nicely.

October 27, 2005

Pretty stupid actually.

The OP has a good point that is being ignored in favor of trying to lump this event cache in with music concerts and whatnot to help feel justified in turning it down.

I recently attended a Geocaching Tournament in central MA. The hosts were the local business organizations and parks departments. I think they had 2 geocachers involved in the planning of the event but for the most part it was entirely designed and carried out by the local non-geocaching organizations as a method for bringing geocachers to their park systems. We had a great time and it was a great event, but it wasn't truely "by geocachers". The GPS-O isn't "by geocachers" either, but it's inviting geocachers to come out and run a course just the same.

It's all exposure for geocaching. The compass-only orienteers get to see GPSr and geocachers in action and vice versa.

We've got REI using accounts with no reference to the store and cache hints that don't include any mention of their commercial nature to set up caches because of a store opening...we've got TBs brought to you by Jeep with their own set of "omg, cheater!" angst...we've even got a movie studio able to buy their own cache type...

I'm willing to be that REI, Jeep and that movie studio are putting a little more money in Groundspeak's pocket than the lil' ol' Orienteering group in New York is. I wonder if the orienteers coughed up some dough if their event would get approved?

Edited October 27, 2005 by ParrotRob

7.2k · October 27, 2005

I'm willing to be that REI, Jeep and that movie studio are putting a little more money in Groundspeak's pocket than the lil' ol' Orienteering group in New York is. I wonder if the orienteers coughed up some dough if their event would get approved?

<edited to avoid another forum ban>

Jeep has placed no caches.

REI and the movie studio all followed the guidelines. They contacted the site in advance and asked for permission. The person who listed this cache did not contact the site. The reviewer followed the guidelines. That is all any reviewer can do. Any fault would be with the cacher for not following the guidelines.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

Orienteering gets some goodies from outdoor equipment, compass, shoe manufacturers and the like.. including REI, but we don't allow them to legislate our sport. Are you saying that isn't true here?

3.9k · October 27, 2005

I'm at a loss. What does that have to do with whether an Orienteering event is a Geocaching event?

Edited October 27, 2005 by Moose Mob

October 27, 2005

I'm willing to be that REI, Jeep and that movie studio are putting a little more money in Groundspeak's pocket than the lil' ol' Orienteering group in New York is. I wonder if the orienteers coughed up some dough if their event would get approved?

<edited to avoid another forum ban>

Jeep has placed no caches.

REI and the movie studio all followed the guidelines. They contacted the site in advance and asked for permission. The person who listed this cache did not contact the site. The reviewer followed the guidelines. That is all any reviewer can do. Any fault would be with the cacher for not following the guidelines.

Referencing my other post, kinda...

Yes, I know what the guidelines say about precedent, or lack thereof. However, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect at least a modicum of consistency in the way cache submissions and approvals are handled. That's all. Especially in cases like this one where there is no cut-and-dried violation, just a vague interpretation of a guideline.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

I'm at a loss. What does that have to do with whether an Orienteering event is a Geocaching event?

The question was why was it banned... a theory expressed by another poster suggested $$$$$

7.2k · October 27, 2005

edscott and ParrotRob, here is your answer.

Go the other way, instead of organizing an orienteering event by orienteer(ers?) and inviting geocachers. Organize a geocaching event by geocachers, set up a orienteering/projecting course among the other activites. Then you'll have an geocaching event, by geocachers, for geocachers and whatever non-geocachers that might show up.

Here's the current guideline, notice the underlined parts:

Event Caches

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. After the event has passed, the event cache should be archived by the organizer within four weeks. While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

Event caches should be submitted no less than two weeks prior to the date of the event, so that potential attendees will have sufficient notice to make their plans. Events are generally listed no more than three months prior to the date of the event, to avoid having the listing appear for a prolonged period of time on the nearest caches page and in the weekly e-mail notification of new caches. Exceptions are sometimes made for events that are designed to attract a regional, national or international group of geocachers. Contact your reviewer if you wish to set up such an event, which may be listed up to six months in advance.

I'd like to submit a canoeing cache trip as an event, but it won't work. Just because some geocachers also canoe or some use canoes to do hydro caches, doesn't mean all canoeist geocache or that canoeing is geocaching. *shrug*

October 27, 2005

I am really curious as to how many people actually attended the previous events. If I got this right, there were 0 attended notes on the first, 1 on the second and 8 on the third. Even the non-events I have been two have at least 20 people attending. I assume that there were actually a lot more people there, but they were just not geocachers. Maybe having the majority of the attendees being non-geocachers should indeed keep it from being approved. Just a thought.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

edscott and ParrotRob, here is your answer.
Go the other way, instead of organizing an orienteering event by orienteer(ers?) and inviting geocachers. Organize a geocaching event by geocachers, set up a orienteering/projecting course among the other activites. Then you'll have an geocaching event, by geocachers, for geocachers and whatever non-geocachers that might show up.

Here's the current guideline, notice the underlined parts:

Event Caches

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers. After the event has passed, the event cache should be archived by the organizer within four weeks. While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers. In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

Event caches should be submitted no less than two weeks prior to the date of the event, so that potential attendees will have sufficient notice to make their plans. Events are generally listed no more than three months prior to the date of the event, to avoid having the listing appear for a prolonged period of time on the nearest caches page and in the weekly e-mail notification of new caches. Exceptions are sometimes made for events that are designed to attract a regional, national or international group of geocachers. Contact your reviewer if you wish to set up such an event, which may be listed up to six months in advance.

I'd like to submit a canoeing cache trip as an event, but it won't work. Just because some geocachers also canoe or some use canoes to do hydro caches, doesn't mean all canoeist geocache or that canoeing is geocaching. *shrug*

OK, but hopefully those geocachers know what orienteering is before they set the geo/orienteering event... Maybe if there was one done by an orienteering club first to show......... Oh, never mind....

3.9k · October 27, 2005

I'm at a loss. What does that have to do with whether an Orienteering event is a Geocaching event?

The question was why was it banned... a theory expressed by another poster suggested $$$$$

Gotcha - and good point.

Not having the particulars on the orienteering event, I would assune a booth or two setup by vendors? If so, then it becomes commercial, and thus permission by Groundspeak.

I have assisted in getting caches started of a commercial nature, but with permission from Groundspeak, and Groundspeak recieved no money for this. I see no issue here.

I do see that the main issue is whether or not the guidelines should allow for non-geocaching events to be listed on the geocaching site. If this is so, and some folks believe that orienteering should be included, others think that hiking boot demonstrations should be included, others feel that fashion shows should be included. Then where would the line be drawn?

6.5k · October 27, 2005

I believe the real question is NOT whther the reviewer followed the guidelines in not allowing the event- he/she clearly did. The question should be do the guidelines need changing.

(chop)

Again, please don't bring up the current guideline. I know it was followed to the letter. I'm asking if it's a good policy, and how the policy benefits geocachers. Assuming there was no guideline and you were using common sense, which event would you want to allow- orienteering/geocaching/compass & GPS event, OR the $5.99 All-You-Can-Eat buffet get together? It seems real clear to me.

...

ok... like most threads that even get to two pages, this need needs split up into the related sub topics.

Lets see there's:

Did NY admin do something wrong? yes/no

would an orienteering event fail to meet current guildelines? yes/no

do current guidelines need changed? yes/no

are guidelines really rules? yes/no

and probably more.

As for pizza vs. actually doing something outside, I'd go for outside. But I think if you organize it correctly either could get listed as an event right now. (And get if you get permission from Groundspeak your event can do all sorts of crazy things.)

should the guideline be changed to allow things not strictly run by/for geocachers? I don't know. Might be difficult to filter orienteering/geocaching:: from garage sales().

3.2k · October 27, 2005

I'm at a loss. What does that have to do with whether an Orienteering event is a Geocaching event?

The question was why was it banned... a theory expressed by another poster suggested $$$$$

Gotcha - and good point.

Not having the particulars on the orienteering event, I would assune a booth or two setup by vendors? If so, then it becomes commercial, and thus permission by Groundspeak.

I have assisted in getting caches started of a commercial nature, but with permission from Groundspeak, and Groundspeak recieved no money for this. I see no issue here.

I do see that the main issue is whether or not the guidelines should allow for non-geocaching events to be listed on the geocaching site. If this is so, and some folks believe that orienteering should be included, others think that hiking boot demonstrations should be included, others feel that fashion shows should be included. Then where would the line be drawn?

Re: vendors.. None there unless it is a national level event. If it was, then geocachers would be banned unless they choose to geocache without a GPS...

3.9k · October 27, 2005

...unless they choose to geocache without a GPS...

There are a couple that do.

October 27, 2005

As much as I hate to agree with GHH , I do think some of the 'rules' need amending or updating (2 things meaning the same). It seems GC/Oreinteering have more in common than sitting around the local McD's chewing on a sausage and biscuit discussing geocaching than an actual event where geocaching, along with oreinteering, is being done. There is a percentage of geocachers who do not use a GPS'r. Some even use their mapping skills to find caches. Seems an event of this type would serve teh greater good. ... the way this is being presented in this thread gives the preception of Letterboxing.org and their preception of GC. Letterboxers as a whole, looked down their noses at geocachers. Are the rules saying the same of other types of 'finding events'?

The OP shouldn't have given up his premium membership over the issue.

8k · October 27, 2005

should the guideline be changed to allow things not strictly run by/for geocachers? I don't know. Might be difficult to filter orienteering/geocaching:: from garage sales().

Garage sales might make an interesting geocaching event. I would love to go to a garage sale with some of the geocachers around here who have discovered some pretty interesting cache containers or neat swag at garage sales.

I'll admit this probably would be better done as smaller group that just decides to get together to see what's at the garage sale than an event listed on GC.com. Not every gathering of geocachers needs to be a cache event.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

...unless they choose to geocache without a GPS...

There are a couple that do.

yes... but not many of us...

3.9k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

3.9k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

I can see we view events as different things. I see them as social gatherings, this can include food and/or beverage. I don't see them as activities.

Sure I go climb big hills. I also stop for beer and pizza with my buddies. One is a cache, the other is a social event.

Edited October 27, 2005 by Moose Mob

October 27, 2005

I'm getting more and more confused as I think about this one. I've got a question about how this was presented. Was the event listed as:

A) basically an advert. for the orienteering event saying you can also geocache?

or B) a Geocaching event that happens to take place at same time/place as the orienteering one?

If A, then I can see exactly why the event was not approved, however if B then I'm really confused, because how is a side event set up by a geocacher for geocachers that happens to take place at the same time as an orienteering event against the rules? Basically, first way would be fine if done in forums or email, because you're really trying to show geocachers and orienteering people how the various sports work. But with B, you're just using the other event as a side reason to get Geocachers together to have fun, and if they learn about orienteering so what?

Or am I just missing something because I'm new?

Celticwulf

7.2k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

You are missing a major point. Once again...

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers.

An event is for geocachers by geocachers. They chat and discuss geocaching. I have never ever seen one orienteering event where they give GPS coordinates to the control points. Never. I would think that using a GPS would be considered cheating, in fact.

(EDIT: Using a GPS is not allowed in fact. Section 21.3 of the 2004 Competition Rules say, "During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.")

You say that a "control" is a "cache". Does it have a container that includes a logbook? Does the "control" conform to all of the GC.com guidelines? No way. It therefore would not be listed on this site. Comparing a control point for orienteering to a geocache is totally comparing apples and tires. They are unrelated. You specifically do *not* use a GPS to find a control point in orienteering since no coordinates are given for it.

Edited October 27, 2005 by mtn-man

3.9k · October 27, 2005

I'm getting more and more confused as I think about this one. I've got a question about how this was presented. Was the event listed as:

A) basically an advert. for the orienteering event saying you can also geocache?

or B) a Geocaching event that happens to take place at same time/place as the orienteering one?

If A, then I can see exactly why the event was not approved, however if B then I'm really confused, because how is a side event set up by a geocacher for geocachers that happens to take place at the same time as an orienteering event against the rules? Basically, first way would be fine if done in forums or email, because you're really trying to show geocachers and orienteering people how the various sports work. But with B, you're just using the other event as a side reason to get Geocachers together to have fun, and if they learn about orienteering so what?

Or am I just missing something because I'm new?

Celticwulf

I think you have the jest of it.

It's loosely similar to a person walking into McDonald's and yelling "Hey come over to Wendy's. They have Hamburgers also." Neither Wendy's not McDonalds like that to happen. (Also note that since Orienteering and Geocaching are not true competitors,. the commercial implications should be ignored)

2.1k · October 27, 2005

It looks to me the the previous "GPS-O" events were orienteering events organized by a orienteering club (the Rochester Orienteerin Club - ROC) to which geocachers were welcome to come...this seems like a clear case of not being suitable for a geocaching event.

That being said, I would love to attend this event if ti were closer, I just wouldn't expect it to be listed as a geocaching event or to get a smilie for my efforts...I'd go because it looks like fun.

nfa-jamie

3.2k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

I can see we view events as different things. I see them as social gatherings, this can include food and/or beverage. I don't see them as activities.

Sure I go climb big hills. I also stop for beer and pizza with my buddies. One is a cache, the other is a social event.

actually we totally agree.. my tone didn't come through.. you must have had your sound turned off.

9.5k · October 27, 2005

Interesting how a geocide can still garner this much attention and create just as big a debate.

Shoulda just been another (yawn) "buhbye".

5.6k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

You are missing a major point. Once again...

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers.

An event is for geocachers by geocachers. They chat and discuss geocaching. I have never ever seen one orienteering event where they give GPS coordinates to the control points. Never. I would think that using a GPS would be considered cheating, in fact.

(EDIT: Using a GPS is not allowed in fact. Section 21.3 of the 2004 Competition Rules say, "During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.")

You say that a "control" is a "cache". Does it have a container that includes a logbook? Does the "control" conform to all of the GC.com guidelines? No way. It therefore would not be listed on this site. Comparing a control point for orienteering to a geocache is totally comparing apples and tires. They are unrelated. You specifically do *not* use a GPS to find a control point in orienteering since no coordinates are given for it.

What you say is strictly true - in an orienteering event. But this was about a GPS-O event:

Previously I had held GPS-O events (which were approved by other reasonable administrators) where I invited Geocachers to an Orienteering event but had them look for the controls based on the cordinates I provided. The orienteers did their thing, the Geocachers did their thing. I even had a travel bug!

Here a GPSr is used to 'run' the course, the co-ords of the controls are listed (think multi-cache, where a sign is a historical marker and source of info for a cache - not that the course is a cache, which nobody claimed - the closest was an alliteration of controls to caches). No one was asking geocachers to do orienteering (map & compass only). So, no, it is not an orienteering event, it's a GPS-O event - apples & tires.

2.1k · October 27, 2005

An event is for geocachers by geocachers. They chat and discuss geocaching. I have never ever seen one orienteering event where they give GPS coordinates to the control points. Never. I would think that using a GPS would be considered cheating, in fact.

(EDIT: Using a GPS is not allowed in fact. Section 21.3 of the 2004 Competition Rules say, "During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.")

Then you haven't clicked on a GPS-O link to actually inform yourself with what's being discussed rather than just shooting off at the mouth.

The GPS-O events run by the OP as a part of the ROClub park events were orienteering courses where the OP was given time in advance to determine the coordinates for the controls to distribute to any geocaching.com event cache attendees. He was also given unmarked maps to distribute with the coordinates. Geocachers were then allowed to run the orienteering courses using their GPSr for navigation but not necessarily knowing the exact location of the flags as found on the maps.

You say that a "control" is a "cache". Does it have a container that includes a logbook? Does the "control" conform to all of the GC.com guidelines? No way. It therefore would not be listed on this site. Comparing a control point for orienteering to a geocache is totally comparing apples and tires. They are unrelated. You specifically do *not* use a GPS to find a control point in orienteering since no coordinates are given for it.

No, events happen all the time that have caches that would not get listed here. Orienteering control stations are exactly the same thing. A flag in the woods with a stamp/punch of some sort to validate the card to prove the contenstants didn't just wander in the woods for 30 minutes and then try to turn in their cards. Coordinates *were* given at these events, in fact, the OP went out of their way to make a bit of a docking station for people so that coordinates could be passed out digitally (according to one of the find logs on his latest approved GPS-O event caches.

This is no different than a geocaching tournament where the scorecard has punches/stamps from the different caches to validate the finds. There are poker caches that have cards but no logbooks at events. Event caches do not need to be a standard cache by any means to be used at the event for the purposes that they're needed. Orienteering controls are similar to any number of event caches that I've seen. This idea has merit. It just doesn't have the love of NYAdmin, therefore it's dead at this point. I strongly urge Geo-Actuary to contact Hydee and/or above her to see about getting these events listed now and in the future. It's clear that ROClub is willing to enjoy sharing their event with geocachers and you've obviously put together some good work to show them geocaching and show geocachers orienteering. It'd be a shame to lose that just because NYAdmin chose the interpretation of the guidelines that they did. I think the work you've done to make it more than just an ROClub event hasn't been emphasized well enough.

As to the other poster commenting on the number of attendees at past GPS-O:

If you check the dates, the first one (with no attendance) was in 2003 and there were very few cachers to attend back then. The second one (a year later) was essentially rained out. The third one was the same weekend as a geocaching regional picnic (in Albany) but those that attended look like they had a lot of fun.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

You can also do what has been done many times before....

Have an event before the activity in question. Breakfast/lunch whatever, then go attend the optional activity.

Maybe that fits the rules but what does that say about those rules? Lunch with absolutely no geocaching involved except finding the diner is OK, but spending 90 minutes in the woods finding 15 controls (caches) is not.

You are missing a major point. Once again...

Event caches are gatherings that are open to all geocachers and which are organized by geocachers.

An event is for geocachers by geocachers. They chat and discuss geocaching. I have never ever seen one orienteering event where they give GPS coordinates to the control points. Never. I would think that using a GPS would be considered cheating, in fact.

(EDIT: Using a GPS is not allowed in fact. Section 21.3 of the 2004 Competition Rules say, "During the competition the only navigational aids that competitors may use are the map and control descriptions provided by the organiser, and a compass.")

You say that a "control" is a "cache". Does it have a container that includes a logbook? Does the "control" conform to all of the GC.com guidelines? No way. It therefore would not be listed on this site. Comparing a control point for orienteering to a geocache is totally comparing apples and tires. They are unrelated. You specifically do *not* use a GPS to find a control point in orienteering since no coordinates are given for it.

What things are and what they should be are two different topics. I don't argue that as the rules are written the event in question was not "legal". It is the rule itself that is in question. No, there are never coordinates given to Orienteers. That is why, if they were given, they would be specifically for the geocachers and not the orienteers.... (Hummmm maybe this makes the event Legal)... but anyhow... Yes, I have stated at least twice above that use of a GPS is illegal in orienteering. So if you use it you are geocaching not orienteering... (Hummm maybe another angle....) I did not say a control was a cache, but did use both words to show the similarity. They are both a point in the woods that is to be found. Wish it didn't seem like some geocachers are afraid that the Orienteers are trying to steal members from Geocaching.com.

BTW glad to see you are reading our website. There is a lot of good information that will improve your caching.

3.9k · October 27, 2005

So much of this is going so far off the topic.

This is a orienteering event put on by orienteerers, not a geocaching event put on by geocachers.

Garage sale people shouldn't post garage sales as geocaching events either.

If you want to go have breakfast with your geocaching buddies, then some of you go find garage sales afterwards, go right ahead.

2.1k · October 27, 2005

This is a orienteering event put on by orienteerers, not a geocaching event put on by geocachers.

Wrong. This is a combination Orienteering/Geocaching event put on by orienteers and geocachers. Orienteers setup multiple courses and develop the maps. Geocachers mark out waypoints for a subset of the courses and are given non-marked copies of the maps. Attendees can choose to orienteer or geocache their way through the available courses. Those choosing to geocache meet with the original poster. Those choosing to orienteer meet with ROC representatives.

At the end of the course, there's refreshments and people (whether they chose to orienteer or geocache) get to meet'n'greet.

This is no different than going to a restaurant to sit around and yak with other geocachers. The restaurant setups the meals. Some people go to eat with their own parties. Some people go to eat with other geocachers.

It's clear that in some cases (e.g., wings'n'beer in CT), all the geocachers have to do is have an idea to gather people to chat. In other cases (e.g., Northern Geocache Tournament in MA), 1-2 geocachers can be on-hand but second fiddle to the parks department and chambers of commerce in organizing the entire multi-day event. In this case (GPS-O in NY), 1 geocacher can setup the entire geocaching aspect of the event...and still be denied an event cache.

My point is simple. Define at what level geocachers have to be involved to make it an event cache. "By geocachers, for geocachers" is clear as mud when it comes to the examples I've cited.

October 27, 2005

I think Juggler guy makes perfect sense. At what level or percentage (2 things that mean the same), does a geocacher need in order to get an Event admitted? ... Changing the wording makes it a GC Event?

October 27, 2005

**knock knock knock**

(holds out measuring cup)

"pardon me, but does anyone know where i might borrow a cup of angst?"

7.2k · October 27, 2005

**knock knock knock**
(holds out measuring cup)

"pardon me, but does anyone know where i might borrow a cup of angst?"

Then you haven't clicked on a GPS-O link to actually inform yourself with what's being discussed rather than just shooting off at the mouth.

Looks like more than a cup. I would say it's becoming a swimming pool full.

2.1k · October 27, 2005

**knock knock knock**
(holds out measuring cup)

"pardon me, but does anyone know where i might borrow a cup of angst?"

Then you haven't clicked on a GPS-O link to actually inform yourself with what's being discussed rather than just shooting off at the mouth.

Looks like more than a cup. I would say it's becoming a swimming pool full.

Apology accepted.

October 27, 2005

So, now I may be understanding, but am still somewhat confused. If I'm reading all of the information correctly, the original issue (event cache with orienteering) can be shown as follows:

OK for GC listed event: Person from GC contacts a friend with orienteering equipment so he can set up a Geocaching event. The event will consist of giving the players the GPS coords of the "flags" and a sheet to record that they found them (stamp/punch/whatever). The "winner" is determined however you feel like (fastest time, most found, etc.), and then there is gathering and chatting afterwards. The friend who's equipment was borrowed sees how the setup has been done and decides to also throw out an orienteering course using the same setup and introduce people to boths sports/activities.

Not OK for GC listed event: Friend sets up an orienteering course in the woods and schedules an event for orienteering people to partake, with chatting afterwards. One of the people he contacts is also into Geocaching, and asks if he could do things a bit differently and set up a set of GPS coordinates to have other cachers run the course with. The friend says yes, and the GC person runs out and sets up all the GPS points and will run a caching type event seperately.

So if I'm getting my information straight here, it's really just a matter of who comes up with the original idea as to whether it's listed? Is that right? (edit: or is neither acceptable?)

*thinks he's still confused*

Celticwulf

Edited October 27, 2005 by celticwulf

7.2k · October 27, 2005

I think Juggler guy makes perfect sense. At what level or percentage (2 things that mean the same), does a geocacher need in order to get an Event admitted? ... Changing the wording makes it a GC Event?

I think it goes back to this in the guidelines.

While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers.

The GPS-O event is an orienteering event put on by orienteers and advertised months in advance on the orienteering site so the orienteering people will come to participate in the sport of orienteering.

7.2k · October 27, 2005

**knock knock knock**
(holds out measuring cup)

"pardon me, but does anyone know where i might borrow a cup of angst?"

Then you haven't clicked on a GPS-O link to actually inform yourself with what's being discussed rather than just shooting off at the mouth.

Looks like more than a cup. I would say it's becoming a swimming pool full.

Apology accepted.

No apology at all.

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

I stopped after I was insulted. I did read edscott's well written post though. I think I will go ahead and report your post though.

October 27, 2005

So if I'm getting my information straight here, it's really just a matter of who comes up with the original idea as to whether it's listed?

That seems to be what I'm getting out of it, too. On one hand, it could be worded differently and get approved, but then run the risk of people attending and feeling "duped" (I think that was the word used earlier). On the other hand, with the listing worded as is ( as the previous listing were worded), it is very clear what you'd be doing, but it doesn't pass the guidelines. It kind of seems to encourage the more "sneaky" tactics rather than openess. But I have to agree with those posting about "the rules are the rules". You don't get rules changed by breaking them. You get them changed by petitioning the rule makers and presenting a good case supported by the masses. Dumping a Premium Membership doesn't seem like the best way to go about it, but I can understand the feeling.

8k · October 27, 2005

I think it goes back to this in the guidelines.
While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or town’s fireworks display might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the organizers and the primary attendees are not geocachers.

The GPS-O event is an orienteering event put on by orienteers and advertised months in advance on the orienteering site so the orienteering people will come to participate in the sport of orienteering.

I think I've got it now. In order to be a geocaching event, the event should be primarily advertised on the geocaching.com website and not on other sites. In the case of the OP, the event was probably listed on the ROC website. Even if the GPS-O part just got a brief mention along with all the other orienteering activities that day, it would be enough to deny the listing on geocaching.com. There are some exceptions that might be allowed. For example, the event could be listed on local geocaching organization website, or an event in a city park might be allowed to be listed in a calendar of events for that city's parks.

7.2k · October 27, 2005

Right. This geocacher is tagging onto a well established event organized by a large organization. They have a yearly calendar. This event has been on that calendar for a long time.

http://roc.us.orienteering.org/schedule.shtml

2.1k · October 27, 2005

I stopped after I was insulted. I did read edscott's well written post though. I think I will go ahead and report your post though.

Insulted? Get real.

I've insulted you before. My post here was hardly insulting. What *is* insulting is misinformation (your attempt to wave away this event because "orienteering *never* has GPSrs") being introduced to an important discussion on what makes something allowable as an event cache.

BTW, you'll be glad to know that Quiggle was quick to side with you and warn me for my above post. I hope that fact disgusts other forum users out there who might find the need to correct your misinformation in the future. I've appealed my warning to Hydee. I don't think there's anything about my post that was disrespectful (unless it's disrespectful these days to demand that people know even a smidgen about what they're claiming especially when they're speaking from an authoritative account).

In the meantime, can someone who's really good at quoting guidelines and rules do me the favor of quoting the one that says another group can't initiate the event months ahead of time, even if geocachers are going to piggy-back their own event for geocachers to attend as part of the greater celebration.

If the event cache in question had been listed as "The Rochester Orienteering Club (ROC) Day at the Park", then there's a problem. But it wasn't.

3.2k · October 27, 2005

**knock knock knock**
(holds out measuring cup)

"pardon me, but does anyone know where i might borrow a cup of angst?"

Then you haven't clicked on a GPS-O link to actually inform yourself with what's being discussed rather than just shooting off at the mouth.

Looks like more than a cup. I would say it's becoming a swimming pool full.

Apology accepted.

No apology at all.

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

I stopped after I was insulted. I did read edscott's well written post though. I think I will go ahead and report your post though.

Well written.. didn't insult anyone??? wait!!! I'll edit it..

2.1k · October 27, 2005

edit: looking for dead horse frog smilie...none to be found

Edited October 27, 2005 by NFA

7.2k · October 27, 2005

I've insulted you before.

Yes you have, and others in these forums as well. Woundn't insulting people be classified and not showing them respect?

What *is* insulting is misinformation (your attempt to wave away this event because "orienteering *never* has GPSrs") being introduced to an important discussion on what makes something allowable as an event cache.

It was not misinformation. That is quoted from the rulebook. The error I made was not looking in the right place for the rules. It was a mistake for heavens sake, not misinformation. I am big enough to admit making a mistake, but after being insulted I quite reading.

In the meantime, can someone who's really good at quoting guidelines and rules do me the favor of quoting the one that says another group can't initiate the event months ahead of time, even if geocachers are going to piggy-back their own event for geocachers to attend as part of the greater celebration.

If the event cache in question had been listed as "The Rochester Orienteering Club (ROC) Day at the Park", then there's a problem. But it wasn't.

The geocaching.com site does not write guidelines for other groups. Another group can initiate their own event months ahead of time if they want. The piggy-backing of the geocaching.com event came months after that group initiated the event. It was an event celebrating National Orienteering Day. It also included a GPS-O event.

September 17 Saturday
National Orienteering Day. Highland Park. Includes GPS-O. Start from 12:00 noon to 2:00 p.m.

October 27, 2005

Okay, with the exception of the 3 Kings of Angst, the OP and two others to remain nameless, there is some real gray area about Event listings. Smack n' Chat is acceptable. You don't have to do a thing except have other cachers present to have an event. Eat some chitlins and biscuits and mention the word "Geo Caching" and you're in. ... If you 'piggy-back ' with another group, ie orienteers, Boy Scouts, Letterboxers, etc and cachers are a part of that group, it isn't acceptable. You can't introduce others. It has be exclusive to cachers only.

Am I taking this too literal?

October 27, 2005

I believe the real question is NOT whther the reviewer followed the guidelines in not allowing the event- he/she clearly did. The question should be do the guidelines need changing.

Ding, ding, ding, ding!

October 27, 2005

I do see that the main issue is whether or not the guidelines should allow for non-geocaching events to be listed on the geocaching site. If this is so, and some folks believe that orienteering should be included, others think that hiking boot demonstrations should be included, others feel that fashion shows should be included. Then where would the line be drawn?

By a community-based, self-policing membership body. Discuss it in the forums and put it to a vote.

October 27, 2005

Okay, with the exception of the 3 Kings of Angst, the OP and two others to remain nameless, there is some real gray area about Event listings. Smack n' Chat is acceptable. You don't have to do a thing except have other cachers present to have an event. Eat some chitlins and biscuits and mention the word "Geo Caching" and you're in. ... If you 'piggy-back ' with another group, ie orienteers, Boy Scouts, Letterboxers, etc and cachers are a part of that group, it isn't acceptable. You can't introduce others. It has be exclusive to cachers only.

Am I taking this too literal?

I don't think it has to be only geocachers. I think it can be safe to say that an event that was planned to have both events planned together would be fine. However the the issue with the OP is that he planned an event to be part of an long standing pre-planned event.

0.02

Cancelled Premium Membership

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