Caching And Spiritual Matters...

[+CYBret]

 

I honestly don't care where it goes anymore, someone please just put this thread out of its misery.

 

Bret

[CoyoteRed]

TRACT (from AHD) "A leaflet or pamphlet containing a declaration or an appeal, especially one put out by a religious or political group."

 

The one's I've found in caches are basic tri-folds on regular paper simply tossed in the cache where they quickly become trashed to be CITOed out.

 

Well, there you have it. KA clarified gc.com's stand, so I'll shut up now. Hopefully, some who were thinking of putting out tracts and have read this will know how a lot of us feel about this subject and maybe not do it.

 

See you on the trail!

[+Confucius' Cat]

The only real reason that I see shining through all of the 'anti-tract/anti-proselytizing' posts here is some strange form of fear that you may be wrong and the tract may be right!

Hardly. The feeling is "enough, already!" Why? Because of the vocal minority who see fit to push their agenda on others regardless. Class prayer in public schools, blue laws, The Pledge, and a host of other things where one group is using the government to force their agenda on the rest of us. So, when I open a cache filled with dirty, wet tracts I'm thinking "For the love of Pete, they got to do it here, too?"

 

Last year a local school board decided to not have prayer at the football games, instead have a moment of silence to reflect and have private wishes for the safety of the players. However, a vocal minority choose to shout the Lord's prayer. So even if you were privately praying for the safety of the players you couldn't because others have choosen what you would be doing for those few seconds for you. They just couldn't let other have just a few seconds of peace. If that isn't pushing their agenda on others, then what is?

 

Taking prayer out of the schools? Please, it's not allowing a captive audience to be bombarded with someone elses beliefs.

 

The Pledge? I don't think we need to show how different we are from the Godless Commies anymore. We can take out the words that were inserted to fight Communism.

 

Blue laws? If that isn't forcing religious compliance, I don't know what is.

 

We are bomarded with other people's will trying to force what should be private matters every day. Enough is enough! That's why I have a problem with it. There is absolutely no way that a tract can even become close to shaking my beliefs. Nothing short of the skies opening up and God Himself coming to Earth could convince me. Until then, LEAVE ME ALONE!!!

 

~Checks blood pressure~

 

</rant>

 

I'd just prefer that I can go geocaching without yet another attempt to convert me, thank you. Expressing yourself is fine. Trying to convert me is not fine.

98% of rant = irrelevant- pledge, prayer, etc

 

Why do you assume the "dirty wet tracts" are aimed to "convert" you?

 

"You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you" - old song lyrics - don't get mad at me I didn't write it, but i think its appropriate for all those who personally find it offensive when a pamphlet they disagree with is found in a cache.

 

If they are "dirty" or "wet" then by all means remove them. If not, assuming they are meant for you and unwanted and therefore removing them is, as many have stated, "overstepping".

 

You cannot call it anything BUT censorship- any way you slice it. Also applies to those who wish to silence "prayer", "pledge", etc. For some reason the "civil libertarians" seem to think THEY have a right to free speech but no one else does.

 

Free speech and expression is either free for EVERYONE, or it does not exist.

[+Ox]

(Steering onto topic) So what you're saying is that its ok for religious materials to be placed in caches.

[Keystone]

(Steering onto topic) So what you're saying is that its ok for religious materials to be placed in caches.

I'm saying that the Guidelines don't prohibit the use of religious items or literature as trade items. McToys aren't prohibited items either.

 

There have been many threads debating about McToys (fun for the kiddies, junk for the grownups) and there will be more in the future.

 

There have been many threads debating about religious items (meaningful for the placer, possibly bothersome to a subset of finders) and there will be more in the future.

 

Both are valid forum discussion topics. But once again, do keep that discussion related to geocaching.

[+SBPhishy]

The instance that CoyoteRed speaks of about the disrupting of silence by shouting prayer is a great one. Not that everyone is like that, but they took the initiative to force their opinion on anyone in earshot. They could not respect everyone's desire for a simple act of silence. Instead, they had to disrupt it with "truth". In a sense, I see pamphlets in caches similar. Let people have their silence, and let them "pray" however they want to. I will never put anti-religious items in a cache, because I want to leave people open to "pray" or "worship" however they want to. After I have just gone on a nice peaceful, serene hike, taking in "God's beauty" in the way I choose, I don't really feel like having my "silence" broken by openening up a cache, to a piece of paper that in essence tells me that there is a better way than my way.

 

Why do you assume the "dirty wet tracts" are aimed to "convert" you?

They are aimed at someone, aren't they? They are intended for people to read, right? Or are they just what you happen to have in your pocket as a trade item, when you see something else you want? Edited April 22, 2004 by SBPhishy

[Pipanella]

After I have just gone on a nice peaceful, serene hike, taking in "God's beauty" in the way I choose, I don't really feel like having my "silence" broken by openening up a cache, to a piece of paper that in essence tells me that there is a better way than my way.

But you have to actually READ it for it to tell you that (unless tracts have become hi-tech and have audio capabilities). And whether you read it or not is your choice, no one is forcing you.

[+aka Monkey]

I don't think it's that cut and dried, or Jeremy or one of the approvers would have spoken up by now and said that tracts were against the rules. Since they haven't, I assume they're not (for the most part). [Edit: One of the approvers just clarified this point.]

 

What if someone started putting Neo-Nazi flyers into caches? Would people have the same opinion? What if they were flyers encouraging polygamy, or instructions on building pipebombs and such? What if the flyers were an argument to legalize pedophilia? What if it contained information on performing home abortions?

 

People are generally proponents of free speech until someone wants to talk about things they don't agree with.

 

There's a time and place for everything... personally, I don't think geocaching is the place for promoting one's personal agendas, regardless of what they are. But, until the rules clearly state otherwise, my opinion is my opinion. I'll remove them from my own caches if I find them, and leave it at that.

Edited April 22, 2004 by Indiana Cojones

[+Ox]

Understandable, but your discomfort does not translate into loss of rights for others who feel differently. Geocaching cannot be limited by any one religious/political/social group. Ignore the pamphlet, same as you would any advertisement offering a "better" TV, toaster oven, or car that you may own.

[+aka Monkey]

Ignore the pamphlet, same as you would any advertisement offering a "better" TV, toaster oven, or car that you may own.

Bad anology, as avertising is strictly forbidden by the rules.

[+Ox]

There is a difference between advertisements for pedophilia and polygamy and religious pamphlets. A flyer for pedophilia/polygamy would be advocating an illegal act, quite a difference from advertising religion. As for Neo-Nazis, again it is a right, and you have the right to be disgusted by it.

[+Ox]

Analogy valid, as I was not referring to those items being in a cache. Its a personal decision to ignore advertisement, whether it be in a cache or on TV.

 

Edit for clarity

Edited April 22, 2004 by Ox

[+SBPhishy]

What if someone started putting Neo-Nazi flyers into caches? Would people have the same opinion? What if they were flyers encouraging polygamy, or instructions on building pipebombs and such? What if the flyers were an argument to legalize pedophilia? What if it contained information on performing home abortions?

 

I honestly see no difference. In history, there have been many acts of violence from religious people, on others that do not share their faith. Neo-Nazi flyers are another differing opinion. I seriously doubt this to be true, but maybe when we die, all black people and Jews go to Hell, and only whites get into heaven. I disagree with all of this stuff, as well as Christian religious tracts in caches. Therefore, I do not think ANYTHING with an agenda should be in a cache. It's nothing personal. Honest. A Neo-Nazi flyer is not "worse" than a Christian one. They both are differing opinions, and they are both entitled to their opinion.

 

But you have to actually READ it for it to tell you that (unless tracts have become hi-tech and have audio capabilities). And whether you read it or not is your choice, no one is forcing you.

While that is partly true, I would be willing to bet that most tracts do in fact tell me of a different way. The fact that they tell me of a different way, tells me that they agree with their way, which in turn, tells me that they think their way is the right way. No, they aren't hi-tech, or have audio capabilities (though, if it was cheap and easy for everyone to make those, I bet we would see some).

It is my choice to read them, but after reading a few, one can come to a realization that most tracts have an agenda.

[+Ox]

We'll have to agree to disagree Phishy. Religious expression should be allowed to manifest itself in geocaching.

[Leoness]

Why isn't ANY pamphlet (whatever the topic, be it religious or not) classed as advertising and therefore banned?

[Pipanella]

Well, then, you're saying it would be okay for me to remove and discard those tokens for free drinks that always seem to show up in caches? I mean, if I think drinking is wrong (which I don't), wouldn't it be the same thing? Maybe someone else would welcome a free drink, where I may think drinking is morally wrong.

 

I see this as exactly the same. If I want to take the token and go get a free beer, I'll take it. If not, I'll leave it for someone who may want that. Same with a tract or other religious material.

[+SBPhishy]

Pipanella. It is somewhat the same. If you remove them and throw them away, go right ahead. As I've said before, some people may disagree with you, but I would assume they would just think you took them to go get a drink. If it really bothers you, take them out. They are there for the taking anyway.

Why isn't ANY pamphlet (whatever the topic, be it religious or not) classed as advertising and therefore banned?

I don't know.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree Phishy. Religious expression should be allowed to manifest itself in geocaching.

I think this is going to be the end of it. I don't ever expect for any of us to agree on this matter. I think the best we will get is agreeing to disagree. You think so, I do not. I am a nice person, you probably are too, we just have our differences. I think we can just leave it at that.

Edited April 22, 2004 by SBPhishy

[schon]

A flyer for pedophilia would be advocating an illegal act

No, it would be advocating making an illegal act legal. (Re-read the post you replied to - it didn't mention flyers saying that people should engage in pedophelia, it said flyers encouraging the legalization of pedophelia.)

 

Do I think that pedophelia should be legalized? Hell no - but I think that a pamplhlet discussing it has just as much right to be somewhere as a religious pamphlet does.

 

The questions is: is that 'somewhere' geocaching?

 

Both type of pamphlets basically say " I believe X - here's why you should believe it too." It doesn't matter what 'X' is - If you believe that some values of 'X' are OK, then you must believe that all values of 'X' are OK. It's hypocritical to think otherwise.

[+Ox]

I am ignoring the previous poster and calling cease-fire with Phishy. We will share the peace pipe and agree to disagree. Thanks for a lively conversation. Team Grizzly, now would be a good time to close this thread.

[+SBPhishy]

Anytime. I'm always up for lively conversation! Peace and well-being to you as well.