Help With Policy Writing Question.

[+The Northwood Goonies]

Today I gave a geocaching presentation to a county conservation board for another cacher that wants to place a cache in one of their parks and on one of their wildlife areas. They have no policy but told her no, so I stepped up to the plate and taught them about geocaching and gave them examples of other policies form 2 other county conservation boards here in Iowa.

 

They came to the conclusion that caching in the parks were ok, but had a problem that caching on wildlife areas would be a problem with hunters, that they would interfer with bowhunters and turkey hunters screwing up their hunts. Then the hunter would come in and complain to them. They are also stuck on the idea that the wildlife areas were paid for by the hunters through licenses and such, so they should be the only ones out there. Plus a cacher could be accidently shot. I told them that it sounds like an irresponsible hunter plus most of us know when the hunting seasonas are and are safe by wearign orange.

 

One board memeber I could tell was on my side, said any hiker, birdwatcher or wildlife photographer can spook and animal as well from the hunter, and if they limited one they would have to limit them all.

 

They told their director to go a write up a policy so they can discuss it and approve it at their next monthly meeting. I told the director that I will help him write it as I know he will make it real confusing.

 

I guess my question is how I can convince them to allow caches on wildlife areas and to get rid of their myth that cachers will interfere with hunters and tick them off?

 

I will also make another topic titled geoacachers and hunters.

 

Any help will be great, THANKS!!!

[+wildearth2001]

actually many hunter will get ticked off by us, but that is their probelm not ours. A hunt is supposed to be luck not just givin to them. I have had hunters come to me while I was running an orienteering meet and told me that I scared away a deer, I just reminded them that this is a public park and I can be where I want. Then they told me that they almost shot me bacuse I was wearing cammo and thought I was another deer.

 

I hope you can get the policy on the side of chaching, good luck!

[+flask]

i have not, to my knowledge, spoiled any hunt for real hunters. i can think of twice where i've spoiled hunts for people drunk and/or hunting illegally.

 

and only tangentially related, (this'd be funny if it hadn't happened) a guy near heere got killed in a hunting accident a couple of years ago... the "hunter" swore he really thought it was a deer. problem is the guy was killed IN HIS LIVING ROOM, while he was watching football. the bullet came through the side of his house.

 

i can only conclude that a)some hunts are meant to be spoiled, and football is dangerous.

 

edit: WHAT? i didn't mean to put one of those little smilies in there i am mystified as to how it got there, an have taken it out.

 

also, why do we all have to explain our edits? we all know who was lying about what they didn't say.

 

second edit: or at least i TRIED to take it out. i think it's gone now.

 

THRID edit: is somebody out there toying with me?

 

FOURTH edit: i give up. i just honkin' give up.

Edited March 16, 2004 by flask

[+The Northwood Goonies]

I agree wildearth it is mostly luck.

 

The Board think that hunters are the priviliged ones who have the right mostly because most of the money that was used to purchase the property is through hunters.

 

I was in my treetand bowhunting one night on a public wildlife area when a neighbors dog chased a rabbit by my tree and spooked three deer that were coming down the trail. I was ticked and could have shot the dog, but I thought oh well maybe next time.

[+Jamie Z]

edit: WHAT? i didn't mean to put one of those little smilies in there i am mystified as to how it got there, an have taken it out.

 

second edit: or at least i TRIED to take it out. i think it's gone now.

 

THRID edit: is somebody out there toying with me?

 

FOURTH edit: i give up. i just honkin' give up.

The shortcut for the smiley is the letter "B" followed by a right paretheses. When you tried to make your A, B list, B showed up as a smiley because it had a parentheses behind it.

 

Jamie

[+JamesJM]

Then they told me that they almost shot me bacuse I was wearing cammo and thought I was another deer.

 

any idiot saying this is no Hunter. That person shouldn't even be allowed to have a firearm. - JamesJM

[+BadAndy]

If you look at it from another perspective..

 

Many hunts on wildlife refuges are "controlled" hunts. The fee's paid for those hunts often go substantially to the refuge being hunted. Anything that might cause a drop in that revenue, especially with current budget cuts would be met with a sharp eye.

 

I'd think they were not managing themselves properly if they didn't maintain some level of self sufficiency.

[+The Northwood Goonies]

Bad Andy,

 

In Iowa in the county conservation system if there is a refuge hunting is NOT allowed. The areas that hunting is allowed are Public Wildlife Areas.

 

The way they receive any money to make land purchases is when they write out a grant for money to help with the purchase of the land. They are not even guaranteed the money since they have to compete with the other 98 counties in the state. One of the places they ask for money is throught he habitat stamp program, which is required statewide to hunt.

 

This isn't like a private game farm that you see the famous people that have their own hunting shows on tv go to. Anybody that has a license can hunt these areas.

[+briansnat]

In NJ we have "wildlife management areas" and their purchases were, in part, financed through monies collected from hunting licenses and taxes on hunting equipment. Though the primary mission of these lands is to manage game animals for hunters, they are also there to "provide countless outdoor recreational opportunities for New Jersey residents and visitors" according to the Division of Fish & Game's website.

 

You should check the mission statement for the wildlife areas in your state to see what it says. I doubt they are there solely to serve hunters.

 

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking about wildlife lands in your state of Iowa (since most of your finds are there, I assume thats your state). Apparently wildlife areas in Iowa are divided into two categories, "wildlife management areas" and "wildlife refuges". According to the Iowa DNR's website, wildlife mangement areas "...provide all users (my bold) equal access to public lands, but include few, if any, public use facilities such as rest rooms, drinking water, hiking trails and other conveniences" and "Although hunting and trapping are the primary recreational activities available on these areas, bird watching, hiking, mushrooming and nature study are allowed, preferably when hunting and trapping seasons are closed. Visit these areas often and enjoy the natural resources they have to offer."

 

Realistically geocaching is in line with pursuits such as hiking, mushrooming and bird watching, so there really is no logical reason to ban it. Wildlife refuges have a different set of regulations and may not be appropriate for geocaching. Perhaps you can promise that the caches will be taken off line during the primary hunting seasons...or at least post the seasons on all cache pages for caches in WMAs.

 

Oh and Iowa's WMA's also have a list of prohibited uses and geocaching isn't on it, so I can't let this go without a snide, "this is what you get for asking".

Edited March 16, 2004 by briansnat

[4x4luv]

Is it possable to mark the cache that is not open for findng durring certian times of the year (hunting season) but open the rest of the year. Also because of our CITO program we would be halling out most of the hunters trash. It would be cleaned up for them at the begaining of the season.

[+briansnat]

[personal attack and profanity deleted]

Edited March 16, 2004 by briansnat

[+tandem]

Here is Ohio State Park has...

 

ALWAYS consult the local facility manager for permission BEFORE establishing a cache. Many are eager to help determine safe, scenic, and fun locations.

Traditional caches are NOT permitted on State Nature Preserves or Wildlife Areas - virtual caches only. Illegally placed caches will be removed.

 

As for caches in a hunting zone, I do those on a Sunday when there is no hunting in most areas. There has been a few in hunting zone in state parks around here. I live in a state park that is mostly hunting area. But still has a few miles of hiking trail free of hunting, so I just put out three caches in those areas. I figure there is a lot of other caches to do, why chance it. As many hunters that shot other hunters thinking their deer now days.

 

The state was very easy to work with, as for the county I live in you fill out papers they come check it out and take a photo of the cache. I think is a bit much.

[+The Northwood Goonies]

I told them also that I post a note stating when a hunting season is open and also to wear blaze orange in the fall and early winter during hunting seasons.

 

Believe it or not one of the board memebers actually said that the note is just asking for trouble and tells them they could get shot, and they don't even want to risk the chance.

[+welch]

I would think they would want to encourage as much enjoyment in the parks as possiable, reguardless of who paid what % percentage for the land. Interfering with legal hunters is wrong, see the other thread for my response about this.

However, geocaching does not normally interfer. Go look up all caches that have been in areas that allow caching for months and yeares even, that have been a problem. Any problems would be the exception, not the norm.

 

If hunters "should be the only ones out there", then these area should also be off limits for anyone without any hunting, fishing, trapping, etc licenses. Other

 

Its true, hunting fees and tags do help fund the wildlife areas, but if just because they fund a good part of it doesn't mean they get sole use (not saying thats exactly fair, but thats how it is). Unless I misunderstand,

REAP is funded from the state's Environment First Fund (Iowa gaming receipts) and from the sale of the natural resource license plate. The program is authorized to receive $20 million per year until 2021, but it has only realized that level of funding in just one year (1991) since its inception in 1989.

, is one of programs funded by those sales. However, not all (or any?) of that money is spent on hunter only things

DNR Open Space 28%,City Parks and Open Space 15%, Soil and Water Enhancement 20% ,County Conservation 20%, DNR Land Management 9% ,Historical, Resources 5%, Roadside Vegetation 3%.

Do those City parks even allow hunting?

 

Also, there is a Iowa DNR geocaching committe report from July 2003 saying

Geocaching appears to be a compatible use with Iowa’s state parks and state forests.  It is recommended that the State Preserves Board determine compatibility on state preserves.  Current U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service opinion is that geocaching is not a compatible use on fish and wildlife lands managed with federal aid funding, which includes all fish and wildlife lands in Iowa. Coordination with the USFWS will be needed to demonstrate to the FWS that this activity does not impact wildlife production or the use of fish and wildlife lands by hunters and anglers.  The DNR does not have funds available to promote or encourage this activity but certainly recognizes geocaching as a legitimate use for most state lands.

Doesn't this show the state thinks geocaching on all hunting lands would be alright? And they even allow caching on State parks (which have special population control hunts from time to time), and in State Recreations Areas, which are Public hunting areas!

 

____

 

As far as the county actually creating a policy. KISS, the more complicated it is the bigger a mess it can be. Easier for the board to have enforced, and easier for cachers to understand and obey.

 

edit: fixing quotes braket, again

Edited March 16, 2004 by welch

[+bigredmed]

I would suggest that the policy for the wildlife areas be that geocaching is permitted but no caching is allowed during bowhunting season and turkey season (especially during shotgun turkey season). This would open the place to caching nearly 9 months of the year instead of 0 months.

 

Personally a bowhunter that shoots a geocacher is someone who probably shouldn't be bowhunting, and to ban someone from a harmless sport because of a Turbo who can't distiguish a turkey from a human instead of banning the Turbo is wrong.

 

Shotgun turkey hunters shoot at sound. Nasty fact that a lot of hunters don't want to admit, but there are KIA's and wounded in the field every year during shotgun turkey season, and its probably just a good idea to stay away.

 

A second bone to thow to the hunter contigent on the boards is wildlife population monitoring. We are people who tramp through the brush with GPS and can throw a 3 meter cirle around wildlife with a time and date stamp. Would be good for the hunters to have an idea of how the populations are doing in the off season.

[+WindChill]

The Story County (Iowa) policy seems to be highly regarded, maybe it would be a good starting point. Find it here or contact Summitt Dweller (as I understand he helped create it).

Edited March 16, 2004 by WindChill

[+The Northwood Goonies]

The director has a copy of Story County's policy and has been contacting Jerry Keys with Story County Conservation about it. I need to give Jerry a call.

 

I don't think they are worried about cachers getting shot, I think they are more worried about them unintentionally scarign game off and have a mad hunter come to their office to complain.

[+briansnat]

As I mentioned in the related post, a lot of authorities picture hordes of geocachers stomping through the woods, when in fact many caches tend to get relatively few visits after the first week or two of their life. Get some find figures for caches in similar areas so they can get an idea as to how many people will actually be visiting these caches.

 

Also, there are probably dozens of caches already on these lands. I'm not sure if you want to point that out though, because if things don't go right, they may try have existing ones pulled. But if their existence is already known by the TBTB there, you can point to them as evidence that caches don't cause problems in wildlife mgmt areas.

[victom]

Great topic and I hope you are able to place your cache...

 

I am hunter that bought a GPS for hunting. Needing practice, I learned of Geocaching, and have found a few and now watch the Forums for tips and other interesting facts.

 

There are many factors here and the most important is money. Although hunters do not pay all the expenses, most of our license fees goes to the land. With that, we expect we can use it and enjoy. I can understand why people do not want to upset hunters, but the bottom line is people will use the land as they want.

 

I guess they can stop the placement of a cache. As with the other listed activities, hunting does not overlap the berry pickers, mushroom, bird watching (? maybe), hiking (? maybe).

 

It is very similar to fisherman and skiers. Many lakes have restricted hours.

 

As a bow hunter, it is the small game hunters that bother me the most.