Permission:

[+Cache Companions]

Hey everyone. We are farily new into the sport of caching and have enjoyed ourselves so much that we have decided to place a cache. I have had some questions in my head regarding whether to ask or not to ask permission from the property owners about a certain location in mind.

 

I have read some previous posts on here about this very topic and it seems to ignite much controversy of morality and values. Perhaps that IS what it all comes down to (?) but I guess I am looking for a shorter, more concise 'YES or NO'. Maybe that's too black and white..but...

 

Our main source of conflict is that SOO many caches we have located virtually have puzzled us as to how and who was asked permission. We are talking a fire dept. water line (who do ya call for that one and WHO WOULD SAY YES??). Also, a trail where we live (No.Cal) called the Iron Horse Trail spans several miles and must have hundreds of caches. Who was called for a public trail?

 

So perhaps we are assuming too much...but in essence we just want to know if it is wise- as good natured, law abiding citizens who have no intention other than to have fun and create mystery- should be without question in quest of permission.

 

Is it a GUIDELINE to seek permission or the LAW?

 

I am no public speaker and would not know the first part about meeting with someone to describe the game and essentially "sell the game" so that we can post the cache (isn't that what it's about? Gaining trust and 'selling')...so it all seems like such a hassle to me. But "Rules" can be hasseling...so I guess we are just looking for the 'why me' but 'not all them' (other hiders) answer.

 

Is there one?

[+TeamK-9]

It really just depends on where you're putting it, in more limited access parks like state parks and stuff, ask people, but on a bike trail, it shouldn't matter that much especially if there's already alot on it...l

[+Sparky-Watts]

 

Is it a GUIDELINE to seek permission or the LAW?

 

 

Hooo, boy. What a can of worms. At least you looked up some previous threads and know some of the feelings around here. As for it being a guideline or a law, I say it depends on where you are placing it. Some places apparently do have laws against caches being placed there.

 

As far as the guideline thing (and I know this will bring a flood of opposing replies), I feel that you should always try your best to follow the guidelines of gc.com when using their site for placing and hunting caches. Go to your local forums and ask around there, and I'm sure there will be someone (your local cache approver) who can put you in touch with the proper person to ask for permission to place a cache, usually the land manager.

 

Good luck, and hang on to your hat, this could be a bumpy ride!

[+Cache Companions]

Hmmm...great idea about the local forums, Sparky. Will do just that!

[+Sparky-Watts]

WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I helped someone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy geocaching, I know I do!

[Captain Chaoss]

Let me congratulate ya SParky.

 

Engagers, one tip : If a guy by the name of CRIMINAL replies to that question, RUN !!!!!

 

[+Sparky-Watts]

Let me congratulate ya SParky.

 

Engagers, one tip : If a guy by the name of CRIMINAL replies to that question, RUN !!!!!

 

ROFL!!!!!

[+Cache Companions]

---------------->

 

Got my shoes laced up...hee hee.

 

Actually- I am already getting some concise answers- so feeling better already.

[+Sparky-Watts]

.

 

Actually- I am already getting some concise answers- so feeling better already.

That's great!

[+Navdog]

Where's Criminal when you need him.

[Captain Chaoss]

Where's Criminal when you need him.

Navdog, you are one SICK puppy !

 

They're too young for that kind of abuse! lol

[+bons]

First off, try contacting your local cachers. It may be that certain areas already have blanket permission given which really cuts down on the workload.

 

To figure out who you would ask permission of, ask yourself who mows the lawns or fixes it if it's broken.

 

Usually, if it's a trail or a park, your country parks & rec department can tell you who's park it is. For the fire department, start calling the local fire marshall's office and seeing where that leads.

 

Sure you may call 7 or 8 people before it's over, but if you're lucky you may get blanket permission.

 

Think of it like a multi over the phone, with the cache being the person who says "Sure, what the heck."

[+Sparky-Watts]

Think of it like a multi over the phone, with the cache being the person who says "Sure, what the heck."

I like that!

[+Team GPSaxophone]

WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I helped someone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy geocaching, I know I do!

That's a first...

[+briansnat]

The guidelines on this website say "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.".

 

The question then is what is "adequate permission"? To me that means obtaining permission where it is required, or if you're placing the cache on private property. If if it is public land and there is no permission required, then you already have "adequate permission" to place your cache.

Edited December 29, 2003 by briansnat

[+mozartman]

I agree with Briansnat, actually, but here's where the the fun really begins for us newbys! we have to decide if we're on the side of:

 

"well, they didn't say it's prohibited so it's OK"

 

OR

 

"I must always get permission from someone, even if I don't think it's required"...

 

there are good reasons for each of these approaches, but it just depends on your personality, comfort level, concept of your personal freedoms, and understanding of the "rules" IMHO. I respect and even applaud seeking permission, if it's done in the right way, even if it's not necessary, because I think it *may* help the game in the long run. but... who can tell?

 

But I also think there is no need for permission if it's not explicitly prohibited already on the public land you're considering. Keep in mind some of these are grey areas and people shouldn't feel bad for not doing one or the other. it's up to you... but you should always investigate and obey the rules and regulations that may apply to geocaching on a piece of land in any situation.

 

Private property? ask permission.

 

there are also some national forests, preserves, refuges and state lands where geocaching is not allowed. You shouldn't do it there. I think there are links on this website to help you find out about that.... or contact your local geocaching group. But otherwise... ??? it's your call. Whether I seek permission or not, I always make it clear on the cache container who's cache it is and how they can contact me, so I can remove it if it's a problem.

 

I also think a lot of people spend way too much time hand-wringing over this stuff.

 

clear as mud?

 

yeah...

 

have fun (if you can, after this)!

 

this is just my opinion and may not reflect that of other geocachers or Groundspeak.

Edited December 29, 2003 by mozartman

[jimmy689]

I agree with Briansnat, actually, but here's where the the fun really begins for us newbys! we have to decide if we're on the side of:

 

"well, they didn't say it's prohibited so it's OK"

 

OR

 

"I must always get permission from someone, even if I don't think it's required"...

 

.

I started a thread on this topic a while ago, and what I found out is that the people who post in these forums are very passionate about their views. Seeking permission on public lands by contacting the land managers may or may not be a good idea. I contacted three different park systems when I was new at this and I got three different responses. One said they knew of several caches in their parks and thought it was a good activity, the next had no clue about it and the third said I needed a "special use permit". The funny thing was that I have cached in all three jurisdictions with no problem. I haven't contacted them since because what they don't know won't hurt them.

Anyway, thats my take on it.

Happy Caching!

ps: This only applies to public lands and should not be applied to private prop.

[+Team Tecmage]

we have to decide if we're on the side of:

 

"well, they didn't say it's prohibited so it's OK"

 

OR

 

"I must always get permission from someone, even if I don't think it's required"...

 

I think you have more choices than seek permission (even when you don't think you need to) or not to seek. The argument here has been framed as such, and the issue has more facets. Jimmy689's post illustrates this.

 

One said they knew of several caches in their parks and thought it was a good activity, the next had no clue about it and the third said I needed a "special use permit". The funny thing was that I have cached in all three jurisdictions with no problem.

 

The first park system likes Geocaches and seems to encourage the placement of caches- no permission needed. The second system needs some education. The particular person that Jimmy spoke with is unaware of caching and may or may not be an ally. The last one has an established Geocaching policy (maybe). Sounds like one of these park systems will allow Geocache placement without permission.

 

I contacted three different park systems when I was new at this and I got three different responses.

 

That happens. A lot of places (and parks people) have not heard of Geocaching, or have not formed an opinion or policy regarding it. Getting three different answers is no reason not to continue talking with them. Again, if a system says cachers are free to place caches without permission, then I'd place all kinds of caches through their parks.

[+Criminal]

we have to decide if we're on the side of:

 

"well, they didn't say it's prohibited so it's OK"

 

OR

 

"I must always get permission from someone, even if I don't think it's required"...

 

I think you have more choices than seek permission (even when you don't think you need to) or not to seek. The argument here has been framed as such, and the issue has more facets. Jimmy689's post illustrates this.

 

One said they knew of several caches in their parks and thought it was a good activity, the next had no clue about it and the third said I needed a "special use permit". The funny thing was that I have cached in all three jurisdictions with no problem.

 

The first park system likes Geocaches and seems to encourage the placement of caches- no permission needed. The second system needs some education. The particular person that Jimmy spoke with is unaware of caching and may or may not be an ally. The last one has an established Geocaching policy (maybe). Sounds like one of these park systems will allow Geocache placement without permission.

 

I contacted three different park systems when I was new at this and I got three different responses.

 

That happens. A lot of places (and parks people) have not heard of Geocaching, or have not formed an opinion or policy regarding it. Getting three different answers is no reason not to continue talking with them. Again, if a system says cachers are free to place caches without permission, then I'd place all kinds of caches through their parks.

Do I spy a new Team member?

[Captain Chaoss]

Psst. hey, engagers. ITS HIM ! Its CRIMINAL !! We'll distact him, you run for it !

[+Team Tecmage]

Do I spy a new Team member?

Hey Criminal! Yes, Solana is four months old. She's old enough to hit the trails, tote water, and get those hard-to-reach caches! It took us a little while to get some pics with all of us in them.

[+seneca]

I just look for one of those "No" signs. If don't see one that says, “No Geocaching Without Permission” then I presume I already have adequate permission to hide the cache.

[Captain Chaoss]

Do I spy a new Team member?

Hey Criminal! Yes, Solana is four months old. She's old enough to hit the trails, tote water, and get those hard-to-reach caches! It took us a little while to get some pics with all of us in them.

Wow, congrats Tecmage ! I had missed that. 4 months old. She's beautiful. Very happy for you folks.

[+Cache Companions]

Well it's good to see that we are not the only ones who find this a grey area. Isn't all life grea areas? Sigh...but anyhow- I guess the point as the newbies here was to make sure there was not a glaring 'YES' or 'NO' and that we would be ignoring one of these answers in our ignorance.

 

You all have been very helpful! Thanks for all the public answers, the private emailed answers...and for not taking the question too seriously!!! We REALLY appreciate it.

 

Happy caching

[+Sparky-Watts]

Do I spy a new Team member?

Hey Criminal! Yes, Solana is four months old. She's old enough to hit the trails, tote water, and get those hard-to-reach caches! It took us a little while to get some pics with all of us in them.

Hey, strap a TB to her ankle and send her out here to Kansas. My wife has been wanting one of those since sometime after May of 1980 when her son was born. He's all grown up and left home, and she wants a replacement. Waddayasay?

 

She's a real cutie!

[+Team Tecmage]

Hey, strap a TB to her ankle and send her out here to Kansas. My wife has been wanting one of those since sometime after May of 1980 when her son was born. He's all grown up and left home, and she wants a replacement. Waddayasay?

 

She's a real cutie!

Thanks, but NO WAY! We've already lost three TBs!

 

*Trying to stay on topic....*

 

Well it's good to see that we are not the only ones who find this a grey area.

 

Hardly, I think we could help each other out by posting places that have not given permission or require some sort of permit.

[+DustyJacket]

Is it a GUIDELINE to seek permission or the LAW?

Law or Guideline aside, I think asking permission for a regular cache anywhere near houses or other occupied areas is just plain good sense.

 

Laws in place can be used to charge a geocache placer if the cache is found. (Littering, etc). Remember, they don't have to win. All they have to do is make you hire a lawyer, and give up your time to go to court. Then they have already won.

 

I was getting tired of waiting for approval for my night cache, and I almost placed it without permission. I am glad I didn't. Some geomuggle evidently spied upon cachers going after the cache, and later followed the reflectors to the cache. Then they called the Sheriff. (The cache was fully marked, repainted, and had the huge GC sticker on it, but still they called the Sheriff. Nuts.)

 

Instead of calling me, the Deputy called the most recent finder(Why? He knew my name from the cache contact info. More Nuts.), and the finder E-mailed me. I called the S.O. today and they started getting a bit snitty until I told them that I had Parks Dept permission to place the cache. At that time they cooled down. I believe they even rehid the cache although I have to go check it tomorrow. In this case, having an E-mail from the Parks Department saved me a lot of grief.

 

With terror alerts going higher, people are just getting weird.

 

Now, a micro or even a deep woods regular cache might be different.

 

NOTE: Night caches are the easiest caches for geomuggles to find, I think.

[+welch]

...

Instead of calling me, the Deputy called the most recent finder(Why? He knew my name from the cache contact info. More Nuts.), and the finder E-mailed me. I called the S.O. today and they started getting a bit snitty until I told them that I had Parks Dept permission to place the cache. At that time they cooled down. I believe they even rehid the cache although I have to go check it tomorrow. In this case, having an E-mail from the Parks Department saved me a lot of grief.

...

They took the cache in for questioning?

[+woodsters]

Guideline or Law?

 

Well it can't be a law. Laws are passed in legislation. I haven't heard of such on geocaching itself. Perhaps it is incorporated into other laws.

 

In some places it may be against their rules. Sometimes they are posted where it's easily read. Sometimes not. You may have to dig around or ask. Don't assume that because you don't see a big sign that says "No Geocaching" that you have permission. Permission is not granted by lack of mentioning it. Thye may not care one way or the other, but to say I have permission because they don't say it is a wrong way to approach it in my opinion.

 

I would say it falls within the guidelines as Briansnat mentioned. But you have to take those with a grain of salt. There are many things listed in the guidelines. Some thing are enforced like rules, others are there as a "security blanket". That way if they want to they can say it's in the guidelines, although they say the guidelines are not rules. Yep clear as mud.

 

Ideally, we would have permission to do whatever we want. Realistically we can't. Just as Dusty Jacket mentioned, things are tightening down security wise and people are not wanting to to risk anything. Not that a park system would think that you are doing anything bad, but the alarm that would happen to others who come across it. Not everyone understands what we do, just as we don't understand some things they do. You have to admit that a person searching for something gets attention. That's why there are always notes on cache pages about people around, so be discreet. Then add into it someone with a backpack or fanny packand carrying an electronic device. Here they are walking aroudn with this thing flat in the palm of their hand like it's something extremely fragile and following it. Turning this way and that way. Then you duck into the bushes. I guess to the unknown that it could be frightening. And then to add to that, they see us pull out metal ammo boxes. 90% of the tiem they are still the green color or camouflaged. That's boosts the scare factor up a bit. And after all this we still continue to treat it like it's a secret, at least until we are asked. Then we freely share are great hobby with them. At least those places who have jurisdiction over lands can at least be aware of what is going on, so when those things happen it won't be new news to them.

 

I have my opinion on the whole thing. I think it's best to ask permission and I will leave it there. But that is my opinion.

[+mozartman]

Woodsters has a lot of experience asking geo-permission, if that's the way you want to go, and he is a good one to ask for tips on how to do it right, as are many of the other experienced "regulars" you see on these forums. good luck!

[jimmy689]

we have to decide if we're on the side of:

 

"well, they didn't say it's prohibited so it's OK"

 

OR

 

"I must always get permission from someone, even if I don't think it's required"...

 

I think you have more choices than seek permission (even when you don't think you need to) or not to seek. The argument here has been framed as such, and the issue has more facets. Jimmy689's post illustrates this.

 

One said they knew of several caches in their parks and thought it was a good activity, the next had no clue about it and the third said I needed a "special use permit". The funny thing was that I have cached in all three jurisdictions with no problem.

 

The first park system likes Geocaches and seems to encourage the placement of caches- no permission needed. The second system needs some education. The particular person that Jimmy spoke with is unaware of caching and may or may not be an ally. The last one has an established Geocaching policy (maybe). Sounds like one of these park systems will allow Geocache placement without permission.

 

I contacted three different park systems when I was new at this and I got three different responses.

 

That happens. A lot of places (and parks people) have not heard of Geocaching, or have not formed an opinion or policy regarding it. Getting three different answers is no reason not to continue talking with them. Again, if a system says cachers are free to place caches without permission, then I'd place all kinds of caches through their parks.

Do I spy a new Team member?

I can speak from personal experience that the county government that responded practically incoherently to my request for information on their policy on geocaching was Monmouth County, New Jersey. One of the richest counties in the state. Where does the money go? The managers do not know anything about anything! We need to educate the lawmakers!