Outdoor Etiquette

[mtncycler]

Yes a hole 3-4ft deep. This is so other animals do not come into contact with human waste. of course you fill in the hole when you're done.

This is info taught to ppl in a basic survival course. If you're lost, you should stay in one place, and do not want to attract animals. Peeing at the base of a tree then kicking moss onto it also stops bacterial contamination.

I would be more worried about properly disinfecting my hands before I eat lunch on a hike!

how many people actually pack a "survival kit" just for a day hike???

a great and humorous reference book is called

"how to sh** in the woods"

[+geospotter]

And here are a few more references (and it's not just deer) --

 

http://www.lnt.org/LNTPNWS&E.html

 

http://classic.mountainzone.com/nationalparks/glac/backcountry.html

 

http://www.aldha.org/waste.htm

 

pipedreamer,

 

Could we now please see the references you use to support your "myth" statement?

[+Bear and Ting]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtnsteve:

 

Right of way on trails....

The person traveling downhill has the right of way.

---

 

Uh...er.....I agree with MOST of your statements, but we were always taught in the scouts (many years ago) that UPHILL trekkers have the right of way. It is easier for a downhiller to stop and let the uphiller pass and then restart on their way down than it is for an uphiller to lose their momentum.

 

Bear & Ting

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

[mtnsteve]

Yea, your right, I was wrong ....I blame it on too much skiing (there the down hill person does have the right away) and just plain brain fade....

 

 

that's my story, and I'm sticking to it....

 

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

[9mmCaching]

This has been a quite entertaining string. I have been ROTFL. Thanks for your humor about the poop issues. Now, I have to decide who makes sense...wee [sic] should have a poll and vote on to scoop or not to scoop. My logic says don't cache and carry poop.

 

When you leave this earth, the cache stays.

 

[basher_boy]

The salt content in "normal" human urine is less then most animal urines. As a rule of thumb a carnivore has a more concentrated urine (read more salt) than an omnivore, than a herbivore. Domestic cats often can easily reach a urine specific gravity (concentration) of 1.035, while Dogs will get to 1.030. I can't find the value for humans, or deer at this point, but I remember seeing the chart somewhere, and was amazed how inefficient human and bovine(cow)kidneys are. Some desert animals have kidneys that can concentrate into the 1.050 range. Also urine concentration is a constently changing thing, the more hydrated you are the less concentrated the urine is (keep in mind that coffee is a powerful diuretic, so coffee drinkers will have very dilute urine).

 

bAsH

BaSh

[Zuckerruebensirup]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtnsteve:

 

On the coast, you are supposed to go in the ocean..you are not supposed to bury it in the sand.

---

I would never have guessed that it was better to go IN the water, than to bury it.

 

I'm assuming that this only counts for the ocean, and not for freshwater lakes or rivers?

 

-------

"I may be slow, but at least I'm sweet!"

[+Bluespreacher]

Well! This has been some thread, hasn't it? I try to practice LNT when I'm out. I think the specifics vary from ecosystem to ecosystem. Here in the Midwest things may be dealt with differently than in an alpine setting. I should mention that I have a son that practices 'Leave No Evidence' when he's out, but that's another story!

 

One thing for sure though. My wife and I went to Red River Gorge in KY last year. It is some of the most breath-takingly beautiful terrain you will ever see, but every where we walked there was toilet paper! On every trail, near every lookout, everywhere. In spite of the views, we will never go back. In fact, we ended up with a pretty low opinion of KY, and I'm sure that's not really fair. So give me Canada, or Michigan, or whatever, we've never seen anything like our neighbor to the South!

 

Bluespreacher

 

"We've got the hardware and the software, the plans and the maps ..." -- Citizen Wayne Kramer

[mtnsteve]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup...

 

I would never have guessed that it was better to go IN the water, than to bury it.

 

I'm assuming that this only counts for the ocean, and not for freshwater lakes or rivers?

---

It struck me as kind of odd, but on "The Lost Coast" in Northern CA, that's what is posted on the trail head sign's. I imagine you can travel inland a ways and find a more traditional spot. The idea of going out in the waves, with the seals and doing your business just seems strange....cold too.

 

I also assume that this only applies to the ocean....and like I mentioned before this may not apply everywhere.....it seems that many places have their own rules, depending on lot's of factors.

 

#############################################

 

Yea, this thread has stirred a lot of emotion from some of the folks, I think that's good though...there will always be those who like to bash and flame and others with a quick wit...I think we have had both....more quick wit, thankfully.

 

 

It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

 

[This message was edited by mtnsteve on July 01, 2002 at 08:18 PM.]

[+Alan2]

quote:

---

On the coast, you are supposed to go in the ocean..you are not supposed to bury it in the sand.

---

 

Only on the outgoing tide. I'm sure you heard the expression about "shoveling sh-t against the tide" That's a no-no.

 

Alan

[boreal jeff & sons]

quote:

---

You know if you think polution is bad today with the automobile, you cannot imagine the amount of horse poop on the streets of NYC around the turn of the last century before the horseless carriage. There was a whole industry just to clean up the mess

---

 

You can't really believe that horses are more polluting then automobiles. In this regard, what a terrible mess all those buffaloes must of made on the great plains. Thank god their gone.

 

Every hour spent geocaching is added to the end of your life

[basher_boy]

Actually if you were to use efficiency as a measure of pollution, a horse, ox, camel, lama, dog, whatever would be a far more polluting means of getting work done than the combustion engine. If I remember my college thermo-dynamics correctly combustion engines are from 50% to 80% efficient. So if I put 100 joules of chemical energy into a combustion engine I will get between 50 and 80 joules converted into mechanical energy. Mammalian type animals generally are 20% efficient at rest. So a horse at rest is using 80 joules of the 100 joules I put in (horse feed) just to stay alive. Remember that this has no on off switch either. Whether I work my horse or not I am using up a lot more energy then I am putting in. One doesn’t have to look much past the Chesapeake water shed or Washington State west of the Cascades to see how inefficient and polluting animals can be as workers. Remember that the largest majority of the pollution in these areas in the manure from the cows on the dairy farms in those watersheds, with additions of fertilizer used to grow the feed to fuel those animals.

 

Ozone you say. The production of greenhouse gasses is secondary to poor efficiency of energy conversion. Studies have been done (I can only just remember reading them) that have shown that one cow produces more green house gasses then several small sedans. The gasses given off by the cows is mostly methane.

 

If you want to talk about the renewablility of fuel resources your animals might win out, and If you want to talk about the biodegradation of the waste product you might also have a case. But with the advent of flax seed oil and methanol powered combustion engines your arguments might loose ground quickly. In some parts of Europe 30-50% of all diesel engines are now using Rapps diesel (rape seed oil) as a fuel source.

 

Imagine a world where everyone you saw was using horses or oxen for power. The pollution and mess would be unimaginable.

 

I hope that I am not bursting any bubbles

 

bAsH

BaSh

[+Alan2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by boreal jeff:

quote:

---

You know if you think polution is bad today with the automobile, you cannot imagine the amount of horse poop on the streets of NYC around the turn of the last century before the horseless carriage. There was a whole industry just to clean up the mess

---

 

You can't really believe that horses are more polluting then automobiles. In this regard, what a terrible mess all those buffaloes must of made on the great plains. Thank god their gone.

...

---

 

"Oh give me a home, where the buffalo roam,

And the deer and the antelope play..."

 

But not in NYC, please! Can you imagine the pooper scooper laws. Curb you bison. Curb your horse. And what about all those plastic Ziplocks? - They're non-biodegradable, very bad for the environment.

 

Better they stay out west to fertilize American farms. We already have enough methane gas here in NY coming from our carpetbagging senator.

 

Alan

[basher_boy]

After looking it up:

 

The maximum specific gravity for

cats 1.085

dogs 1.075

humans 1.040

[+WalkinJake]

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

 

--Thanks, everyone! I needed a good laugh.

[+Mudfrog]

Hey, this might help for some of you that cant "hold it" while out on the trail. The local dollar store has bottle corks by the hundreds in varying sizes. Now im not sure if they will let you try out different ones in the store to see what fits, but as cheap as they are i figure you could buy a few different sizes then see which provides the tightest seal in the privacy of your own home... Seems this would be an ideal addition to anyones GeoCaching backpack.

 

As far as peeing out in the woods, just call me crazy but when i gotta go, i gotta go!!!

[+Jamie Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by basher_boy:

If I remember my college thermo-dynamics correctly combustion engines are from 50% to 80% efficient.

---

Not to disagree with your post, but this statistic is incorrect.

 

Internal combustion engines are typically somewhere around 20%-30% efficient...

 

Jamie

[pipedreamer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtncycler:

Yes a hole 3-4ft deep. This is so other animals do not come into contact with human waste.

---

 

First, NO. Ferchrissake, do NOT dig a hole four FEET deep! Do you realize how much soil and habitat you will have to disturb to dig a huge hole like that? Not to mention that with rocks and roots blocking your progress, you'd probably have to try multiple locations before finding a spot that would even let you dig down that far. The area would look like a bombed-out warzone by the time you were finished.

 

Second, animals come into contact with other species' poop all the time. You don't see bear burying their poop so deer don't "come in contact " with it do you? Where do people get this crazy idea that poop from wildlife is "pure" but that human poop is toxic? We're all animals, all poop is essentially the same.

quote:

---

Peeing at the base of a tree then kicking moss onto it also stops bacterial contamination.

---

No, no NO!

 

First, by "kicking moss onto it" you are killing the moss and destroying habitat, not to mention uglifying the area.

 

Second, where is your scientific proof for this idea that moss "stops bacterial contamination"?

[+georgeandmary]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pipedreamer:

 

quote:

---

Peeing at the base of a tree then kicking moss onto it also stops bacterial contamination.

---

No, no NO!

 

First, by "kicking moss onto it" you are killing the moss and destroying habitat, not to mention uglifying the area.

 

Second, where is your scientific proof for this idea that moss "stops bacterial contamination"?

---

 

I don't think there is much in the way of bacteria in urine. I've always heard it's pretty sterile. I was watching a kindey transplant on tv and after the kidney was attached and blood was flowing through it, urine was squirting all inside the body cavity (they were testing to make sure it worked) and the doctor mentioned that the urine was sterile.

 

george

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

[+Allen_L]

Yes, for a healthy person it starts out sterile (See Facts about Urine at the bottom of http://www.umm.edu/urology-info/anatomy.htm) However it loses the sterility on exposure to the bacteria, viruses, etc in its surroundings including the air, which cause it to break down. But it is the environment contaminating the urine not the other way around.

[+geospotter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgeandmary:

 

I was watching a kindey transplant on tv and after the kidney was attached and blood was flowing through it, urine was squirting all inside the body cavity (they were testing to make sure it worked) and the doctor mentioned that the urine was sterile.

---

 

George,

 

I saw the same show!

[basher_boy]

Jamie Z

 

I stand corrected.

 

graphic

 

Urine as it leaves an animal's body is NOT sterile. An animal's urethra is colinized by any number of comensal microorganisms. Once urine leaves a healthy bladder it is no longer considered sterile.