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BK-Hunters

Lychgates is in PEER REVIEW!!

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Faced with a total lack of negative comment in the forum (or positive comment, for that matter), I've sent Lychgates to peer review.

Now, your job is to go read it over and VOTE!!

Thank You,

Keith

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Posted (edited)

Done.  Thank you.  

Edited by elyob

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Posted (edited)

We've had two "Nay" votes in peer review, both based on the same concern:

"This can be included in "freestanding arches" and "Gates of distinction"

"These can be included in freestanding arches and Gates of distinction. Redundant. Nay."

 

I don't believe there's substantial merit to these critiques.

A: Gates of Distinction are, just that - GATES. While the word "gate" is part of the word "lychgate", a lychgate may or may not have actual gates attached. Many, if not most, that we've seen have no gates. Few which have gates will have "distinctive" gates worthy of inclusion in the Gates of Distinction category.

B: Free Standing Arches are not structures with roofs. Lychgates are. There is a substantial difference between the two. "Arches" generally do not, and are not intended to, provide protection from the elements, whereas that was the primary purpose of lychgates

 

If lychgates were to be accepted in either category I would expect that some would have appeared there already. I haven't noticed any.

Keith

EDIT:

A third concern has been raised, pointing out a shortcoming in the requirements:

"If a particular language is mandatory, it should be mentioned in the category description."

Thank You to blackjack65 for pointing that out. It will be fixed.

Edited by BK-Hunters

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Posted (edited)

WM100J3 WMAYNQ WMA67C

 

Stone Church Artefacts seems a more welcoming group for lychgates.

Edited by elyob

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2 hours ago, elyob said:

WM100J3 WMAYNQ WMA67C

 

Stone Church Artefacts seems a more welcoming group for lychgates.

The third, WMA67C, is a Gate of Distinction. If they choose to accept a lychgate, that's their choice. If a lychgate should be sufficiently "Distinctive" to rate a WM there then more power to it. It's not as though cross posting is a brand new concept.

 

The other two I can't get a hit on.

Keith

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1 hour ago, elyob said:

 

Yeah, those work better. I don't get to the UK often, so I don't get to see those cool old ones.

I'll admit that I wouldn't have accepted the second one as an "arch", but I don't do that category.

The spider web gate is, indeed, distinctive. I don't know about the "arch" one as Ddraig Ddu hasn't been active of late, but the spider web gate one we can expect to show up shortly.

Keith

 

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Posted (edited)

Finally! A comment from the continent:

As said, there are other categories  Another remark, it is too restrictive ("too British") if you open your category to other monuments/buildings that have the same usefulness/function ("used as the temporary resting place for a casket or corpse awaiting burial") So I would say Yes (Because at that moment it becomes Worldwide)  In France: Depositoire, in Spain: El depositario

 

Though I'm using the name Lychgates, the items mentioned above are the type of thing I'd like to include, as they serve the same function. Until now I didn't even know any of the names used in various languages for such structures.

 

Don't see why we shouldn't be including such things as they are simply an interpretation of the lychgate.

 

Another Continental comment indicates prevalence on the Continent:

Ticks all the boxes, thank you for new submission, good work! They are not rare in central Europe. Often can be found as entrances to old cemeteries.

 

Here's a Depositoire in Carmes cemetery in Clermont-Ferrand, France, built in 1877:

 

ZZ CH Mary Paul-01.1.JPG

 

Here's another Depositoire, this one on this side of the pond. We discovered it in the cemetery of Eglise Notre-Dame du Mont-Carmel in PEI.

 

This is a bit of the text which we included with it:

In 1928, the Parish of Mont-Carmel asked Cagetain Arsenault if he would construct a small brick chapel above Father Pierre Paul Arsenault's grave. It would be a tribute to his memory, and its purpose would be to provide a safe and sacred space for those who died during the winter months and were awaiting burial in the spring.

 

 

ZZ CH RC Mont Carmel-17.5.JPG

Edited by BK-Hunters

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Another comment, this by Chickilim:

I'm sorry to discover this peer-review without being able to take part in time to the discussion on the forum. In France, many rural churches have near their portal of entry a "stone of the deads" (also called "restoir") on which formerly the body of a deceased was deposited pending the arrival the priest, who arrived sometimes a few days later! .. (http://gerval2.free.fr/pierredesmorts.htm). Curiously very few of these stones table were protected by a roof and the protection of the body was left in the care of potential relatives who had possibly stay remain near the body until his funeral.  However, some of these "waiting stones" are placed under "caquetoirs" (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caquetoire_(architecture)), a porch roof at the entrance of the churches, intended to protect the faithful from bad weather before or after Mass.  I will change my "Abstain" in "Yeah" if these "stones of the dead" protected under "caquetoire" can fall into this category. ;-)

 

I agree wholeheartedly that these should be included in the category, as long as they can be documented in some fashion. This is the type of comment I had hoped for here in the forum so the category could have been modified appropriately prior to peer review. Oh well, it'll get done one way or another.

Keith

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2 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Finally! A comment from the continent:

As said, there are other categories  Another remark, it is too restrictive ("too British") if you open your category to other monuments/buildings that have the same usefulness/function ("used as the temporary resting place for a casket or corpse awaiting burial") So I would say Yes (Because at that moment it becomes Worldwide)  In France: Depositoire, in Spain: El depositario

 

Though I'm using the name Lychgates, the items mentioned above are the type of thing I'd like to include, as they serve the same function. Until now I didn't even know any of the names used in various languages for such structures.

 

Don't see why we shouldn't be including such things as they are simply an interpretation of the lychgate.

 

Another Continental comment indicates prevalence on the Continent:

Ticks all the boxes, thank you for new submission, good work! They are not rare in central Europe. Often can be found as entrances to old cemeteries.

 

Here's a Depositoire in Carmes cemetery in Clermont-Ferrand, France, built in 1877:

 

ZZ CH Mary Paul-01.1.JPG

 

Here's another Depositoire, this one on this side of the pond. We discovered it in the cemetery of Eglise Notre-Dame du Mont-Carmel in PEI.

 

This is a bit of the text which we included with it:

In 1928, the Parish of Mont-Carmel asked Cagetain Arsenault if he would construct a small brick chapel above Father Pierre Paul Arsenault's grave. It would be a tribute to his memory, and its purpose would be to provide a safe and sacred space for those who died during the winter months and were awaiting burial in the spring.

 

 

ZZ CH RC Mont Carmel-17.5.JPG


Keith
Thank you for considering my point, and agreeing to include it in the categories.
As I said, I'm going to change my vote.

This is what was promised and this is what must be delivered :P;)

 

 

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2 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Another comment, this by Chickilim:

I'm sorry to discover this peer-review without being able to take part in time to the discussion on the forum. In France, many rural churches have near their portal of entry a "stone of the deads" (also called "restoir") on which formerly the body of a deceased was deposited pending the arrival the priest, who arrived sometimes a few days later! .. (http://gerval2.free.fr/pierredesmorts.htm). Curiously very few of these stones table were protected by a roof and the protection of the body was left in the care of potential relatives who had possibly stay remain near the body until his funeral.  However, some of these "waiting stones" are placed under "caquetoirs" (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caquetoire_(architecture)), a porch roof at the entrance of the churches, intended to protect the faithful from bad weather before or after Mass.  I will change my "Abstain" in "Yeah" if these "stones of the dead" protected under "caquetoire" can fall into this category. ;-)

 

I agree wholeheartedly that these should be included in the category, as long as they can be documented in some fashion. This is the type of comment I had hoped for here in the forum so the category could have been modified appropriately prior to peer review. Oh well, it'll get done one way or another.

Keith

These "waiting stones" are already accepted in Stone Church Artifacts: 

 

Church Lych Gate Coffin Stones

 

The lych gate coffin stone is within a porch or entrance to the churchyard where the coffin bearers placed the coffin on a wide seat, whilst waiting for the priest and the rest of the funeral cortege. These stones were in the centre of the entrance.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tuena said:

These "waiting stones" are already accepted in Stone Church Artifacts: 

 

Church Lych Gate Coffin Stones

 

The lych gate coffin stone is within a porch or entrance to the churchyard where the coffin bearers placed the coffin on a wide seat, whilst waiting for the priest and the rest of the funeral cortege. These stones were in the centre of the entrance.

 

 

 

Yeah, just became aware of that. Will deal with it appropriately before publishing the category.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention,

Keith

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The buildings above remind me of charnier.  Many of those are published in the category for Charnel Chapels, Charnel Houses and Ossuaries.

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1 hour ago, elyob said:

The buildings above remind me of charnier.  Many of those are published in the category for Charnel Chapels, Charnel Houses and Ossuaries.

Be that as it may they are a totally other animal.

Lychgates are used for pre burial.

Charnel  Chapels, Charnel Houses  and Ossuaries are used for burial or post burial.

Keith

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14 hours ago, elyob said:

Lychgates are open.

Well CLOSE them, you're letting the flies in!!

 

The category has been appropriately edited and updated to reflect necessary changes and to address errors and omissions.

One thing to note is that, since they're accepted in Stone Church Artifacts, we won't be accepting Pierres Des Morts, Stones of the Dead, reposoirs, waiting stones...

Keith

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