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Cheminer Will

GPS Map 66st Waypoints missing?

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This has happened the last two times I have been out.  Each time I saved more waypoints than showed up when I got home and connected to computer/BaseCamp. 

 

Yesterday I marked and saved waypoints 0065 through 0082.  When connected to BaseCamp, only 0075 trough 0082 are on the 66.

 

Two days ago I marked and saved 0051 through 0064.  When connecting to BaseCamp later only the last several were there.  Right now I have 50 user created waypoints on the 66. Most are named and stored from my personal waypoints, not the numbered ones.  Only the ones I create in real time are numbered until I decide to save one and give it a descriptive name.  It seems like with 50 user waypoints on the device, if I try to mark and save one more, it seems like the oldest one from today gets deleted.  Is there a 50 waypoint limit setting somewhere?

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I just created 103 waypoints on my MAP 66, and Basecamp sees them all.....

 

Are you certain you are pressing Enter to SAVE each waypoint properly?

 

Open your Waypoints.gpx file for that day with notepad and see if the missing waypoints are in the GPX file. (probably not)

Edited by Atlas Cached

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Yes I am certain as two days ago I thought, even though unlikely, maybe it was user error and just forgot to save.  But I keep descriptions of each saved point on my phone so if I did not save, then the next time I did a mark, I would notice the number had not increased by one.  In any case, because I was doubting myself, yesterday I made absolutely sure that I was saving each time and it did without error. But the first several were not there when connected to BC.

 

I am going to take the unit out right now and try marking and saving several more and see what happens.

Edited by Cheminer Will

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If they were all saved on the same day, they will be in the same file.

 

Without being there to see your gpx files and BC screen, it is difficult to determine what may be occurring....

 

So, did the number increase every time you saved a waypoint?

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I will have to just keep close track of this going forward and see because I am confusing myself now.  I just went out and marked some new waypoints.  I noticed that if I marked waypoint "0101" and then "quit" (with quit button), without saving, the next time I marked a waypoint, it used "0101" again.  This makes sense.  But if I marked "0101" and then moved to another screen without saving or quitting, (just press the "page" button for example), then the next time I mark a point, it uses "0102" even though "0101" was not saved, (and does not show in BC).  Theoretically 0101 should have been available for use but it went to 0102.  So in summary if I "quit" before saving while marking a point, it is as if I never did anything and, as it should, the next time I mark a point, it picks up using the same number it was using when I "quit".  If instead I just move on without quitting or saving, like use the page button, it will not pick up the next time using the same number.  It goes up one number even though that number was never saved and will not show in BC.


It is an issue for me because I have been just making one long track on hikes even when hiking several different trails on the same hike.  I just mark a waypoint when a new trail starts or intersects.  So if when I return home and start BC, some of the waypoints I thought I saved are not there, it is a problem because I then do not know where on the track the intersection was.

 

I am thinking now there is a possibility of user error somehow in the field.  It is just odd that it happened the last two hikes I did this past week and never before that.  But I will keep very exacting track of what I do next time out and report back on what happens.  

Edited by Cheminer Will

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15 hours ago, Cheminer Will said:

I just went out and marked some new waypoints.  I noticed that if I marked waypoint "0101" and then "quit" (with quit button), without saving, the next time I marked a waypoint, it used "0101" again.  This makes sense.  But if I marked "0101" and then moved to another screen without saving or quiting, (just press the "page" button for example), then the next time I mark a point, it uses "0102" even though "0101" was not saved, (and does not show in BC).  Theoretically 0101 should have been available for use but it went to 0102.  So in summary if I "quit" before saving while marking a point, it is as if I never did anything and, as it should, the next time I mark a point, it picks up using the same number it was using when I "quit".  If instead I just move on without quitting or saving, like use the page button, it will not pick up the next time using the same number.  It goes up one number even though that number was never saved and will not show in BC.

 

 

I tested this behavior last night on a GPSMAP 66st, eTrex Touch 35t, Oregon 750t, and an eTrex 30x, and they all saved the new waypoint regardless of my actions to exit the Mark Waypoint screen without pressing 'Enter' or selecting 'Save', so long as I did not select or press 'Cancel'. On each unit, the waypoints were all visible in the waypoint manager.

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28 minutes ago, Atlas Cached said:

 

I tested this behavior last night on a GPSMAP 66st, eTrex Touch 35t, Oregon 750t, and an eTrex 30x, and they all saved the new waypoint regardless of my actions to exit the Mark Waypoint screen without pressing 'Enter' or selecting 'Save', so long as I did not select or press 'Cancel'. On each unit, the waypoints were all visible in the waypoint manager.

 

Were you exiting the Mark Waypoint screen before saving the point? 

 

Just to make my confusing explanation above better, I added some highlighting to that post.  My examples above were for what happened when I exited the Mark Waypoint screen in various ways before saving. I was trying to see what happens in various scenarios where maybe because of cold fingers, gloves, absent mindedness, etc. the save button did not get pushed.  I was trying to see what mistakes when saving a waypoint might cause what I was seeing.  When I did as you describe and made sure I saved the marked waypoint before leaving that screen, they were saved and visible in the manager just like yours, regardless of how I exited the Mark Waypoint screen.

 

What happened on my last two hikes is that I returned home thinking I had say 15 newly marked waypoints, (eg: 0085 - 0099) but when connecting to BaseCamp only 0092 - 0099 were on the unit. Because 0085 - 0091 were not there, I tried to find ways I could have caused that without actually deleting them. 

 

As example, for a waypoint marked as number 0085,  I found that if I exited the Mark Waypoint screen in any way other than using the "Quit" button, before saving 0085, then even though that waypoint was not saved, the unit believes it was used and the next marked waypoint will be 0086.  But because 0085 was not actually used or saved, it will be missing from the list of new waypoints.  If, before saving waypoint 0085, I leave that screen using the "Quit" button, then the unit knows I did not use 0085 and the next time I mark a waypoint, it will correctly use 0085. 

Edited by Cheminer Will

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Yes, BEFORE SAVING.

 

I would press 'Mark' then 'Page' or 'Menu" to get out of the Mark Waypoint page without saving. In fact, I could press 'Mark > Menu > Menu  > Waypoint Manager' and there it was!

Edited by Atlas Cached

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44 minutes ago, Atlas Cached said:

Yes, BEFORE SAVING.

 

I would press 'Mark' then 'Page' or 'Menu" to get out of the Mark Waypoint page without saving. In fact, I could press 'Mark > Menu > Menu  > Waypoint Manager' and there it was!

 

Ah ha. I was looking for the waypoints in BaseCamp.  When I did as you and look in the Waypoint Manager on the 66 I get the same results as you see. 

 

What if you do what you described and then connect to BaseCamp?  Do you see all the waypoints in BC?  Or are some missing based on how you exited before saving when marking them? I was looking for the waypoints in BC and that is where get the results I described above.  So it seems it is possibly an issue with BC.

 

I have many waypoints on my 66 that I can not see in BaseCamp when the 66 is connected.

 

For example I just marked waypoints 0125 - 0135 saving and not saving and exiting the screen in various ways.  When connected to BC, only waypoints 0133, 0134, and 0135 are shown.

 

I will need to mark some waypoints on the 66, keeping notes of exactly what I do for each specific waypoint.  Then see which ones show in BC.

Edited by Cheminer Will

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That's weird. I'm wondering how/why the waypoints would exist in the waypoint manager on the device, but not have been written to file.

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3 hours ago, Cheminer Will said:

 

Ah ha. I was looking for the waypoints in BaseCamp.  When I did as you and look in the Waypoint Manager on the 66 I get the same results as you see. 

 

What if you do what you described and then connect to BaseCamp?  Do you see all the waypoints in BC?  Or are some missing based on how you exited before saving when marking them? I was looking for the waypoints in BC and that is where get the results I described above.  So it seems it is possibly an issue with BC.

 

I will have to look at that this evening. 8^)

 

See Below.

Edited by Atlas Cached

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Are you connecting in mass storage mode?

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2 hours ago, Mineral2 said:

That's weird. I'm wondering how/why the waypoints would exist in the waypoint manager on the device, but not have been written to file.

 

I am thinking that maybe to get it stored on the device it is enough that you have marked a point even without saving it.  But to get it to be read into BaseCamp it has to have been properly saved on the 66.  But the thing is that I felt pretty sure, (but less so now), that I was properly saving some of the marked waypoints that later did not show up in BaseCamp.  Before I stand by that claim though, to make me sure in my own mind, I will need to carefully go through all the possibilities of marking, saving, not saving, page button presses, etc. etc. and see what does or does not show up in B.C.  I will do that carefully and take notes so that I can be sure of the results.  

 

56 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Are you connecting in mass storage mode?

 

Yes. I can try connecting in Garmin's Spanner mode and see of that changes anything.

Edited by Cheminer Will

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29 minutes ago, Cheminer Will said:

 

I am thinking that maybe to get it stored on the device it is enough that you have marked a point even without saving it.  But to get it to be read into BaseCamp it has to have been properly saved on the 66.  But the thing is that I felt pretty sure, (but less so now), that I was properly saving some of the marked waypoints that later did not show up in BaseCamp.  Before I stand by that claim though, to make me sure in my own mind, I will need to carefully go through all the possibilities of marking, saving, not saving, page button presses, etc. etc. and see what does or does not show up in B.C.  I will do that carefully and take notes so that I can be sure of the results.  

 

 

Yes. I can try connecting in Garmin's Spanner mode and see of that changes anything.

 

Tested again, GPSMAP 66st, Mark > Menu > Menu > Mark > Menu > Menu > Mark > Menu > Menu > Waypoint Manager, which resulted in three fresh, consecutively numbered waypoints listed, 0105, 0106, and 0107.

 

Connected the GPSr to my PC, and opened the Garmin/GPX/Waypoints_25-FEB-19.gpx file and could see those same three waypoints listed in the XML data.

 

Opened BaseCamp 4.7.0.0, waited for the GPSr unit to be fully indexed, and was able to find those same three waypoints listed in the GPSMAP 66st 'Internal Storage'.

 

I do not know what it is you are doing to not be able to duplicate this behavior.

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1 hour ago, Atlas Cached said:

 

I do not know what it is you are doing to not be able to duplicate this behavior

 

I started testing again while keeping notes and was getting inconsistent behaviour with some waypoints being saved and visible as expected and many others not.  So I finally just decided to go into Waypoint Manager on my 66st and "Delete All".  This set things such that the next waypoint I "Marked" started over at 0001.  So this cleared the 66st of all waypoints I had ever marked, both the ones I could see in Waypoint Manager on my 66 and the ones that I could no longer see, and also the ones that showed in BaseCamp and the ones that did not.  It also must have cleared any other traces of those waypoints hidden on the 66st since it now felt free to start over at 0001 which it did not before. (Even though I had thought I had deleted, and could not see anywhere, waypoint 0001 etc.)

 

Prior to this I had deleted waypoints on the 66st using BaseCamp after transferring them into my BaseCamp "Collection".   I had also cleared waypoints a couple of times by deleting the files I thought held them using Windows Explorer while connected in mass storage mode.  But, I had never used Waypoint Manager on the 66st to directly, manually, delete waypoints.  I guess maybe doing it in BaseCamp or Windows Explorer may not always clear all memory of the waypoints from the 66st.  I would have thought that deleting waypoint "0006" for example from the 66st "Internal Storage" within BaseCamp would delete it from the 66st.  Apparently it does delete you being able to see it in BaseCamp or in Waypoint Manager on the 66st, but somewhere on the 66st a memory of it still exists.  Using Waypoint Manager to delete unneeded waypoints is more cumbersome that from within BaseCamp, but must do a cleaner job of it.

 

Anyway, after all that I then recorded new waypoints 0001 through 0012 on the 66st from different pages, and using various steps of saving, not saving, exiting, etc.  All seems to work as expected now.  Below are the notes of I made to keep track while doing this that show waypoints 0001 - 0012 are visible now that I have "Deleted All" using the 66st Waypoint Manager. All of them are now doing what I was expecting to happen before but was not seeing.

 

0001 Mark & Save from Satellite Page while Auto Paused – Yes visible in Waypoint Manager –Yes visible in BaseCamp

0002 Mark & Save from Map Page while Auto Paused – Yes in W.M. – Yes in BC

0003 Mark & Save from Recording Control Page while Auto Paused – Yes W.M. & BC

0004 Mark & Save from Satellite Page while recording – Yes W.M. & BC

0005 Mark & Save from Map Page while recording – Yes W.M. & BC

0006 Mark & Save from Recording Control Page while recording – Yes W.M. & BC

0007 Mark & Not Save from Satellite Page while Auto Paused. Exit w/ Page Key – Yes W.M. & BC

0008 Mark & Not Save from Map Page while Auto Paused. Exit w/ Page Key – Yes W.M. & BC

0009 Mark & Not Save from Recording Control Page while Auto Paused – Yes W.M. & BC

0010 Mark & Not Save from Satellite Page while recording. Exit w/ Page Key – Yes W.M. & BC

0011 Mark & Not Save from Map Page while recording. Exit w/ Page Key – Yes W.M. & BC

0012 Mark & Not Save from Recording Controls Page while recording. Exit w/ Page Key – Yes W.M. & BC

 

on edit:  It is interesting that even if I do not press the enter key to "Save" after "Marking" a waypoint, the waypoint will still be stored in Waypoint Manager and visible in BaseCamp.  The only time the waypoint is not saved is if I use the "Quit" button to exit before saving. 

Edited by Cheminer Will

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12 minutes ago, Cheminer Will said:

I had never used Waypoint Manager on the 66st to directly, manually, delete waypoints.  I guess maybe doing it in BaseCamp or Windows Explorer may not always clear all memory of the waypoints from the 66st.  I would have thought that deleting waypoint "0006" for example from the 66st "Internal Storage" within BaseCamp would delete it from the 66st.  Apparently it does delete you being able to see it in BaseCamp or in Waypoint Manager on the 66st, but somewhere on the 66st a memory of it still exists. 

 

Well, that sounded interesting, so I tested it, and could actually see each waypoint removed from internal memory on my GPSMAP 66st as I deleted them via BaseCamp. So, deleting waypoints in the internal memory of your GPSr via BaseCamp does work.

 

Now, if I remember correctly, you stepped up from a 60CSx to the MAP 66, correct?

 

This would mean you also stepped up from MapSource to BaseCamp. Like the differences between a GPSMAP 60CSx and a GPSMAP 66st, so are the differences between MapSource and BaseCamp.

 

I am not there to see what you are doing, but if you copy waypoints from any GPSr to another list in BaseCamp (you may want the same waypoint in one or more lists), and then later delete that waypoint from any of those lists, it still remains in the BaseCamp memory, as it still exists in additional lists.

 

So, if you are copying those waypoints from your GPSMAP 66 to the BaseCamp database, then deleting them in the BaseCamp database later, they will NOT be deleted from your GPSMAP 66. 

Edited by Atlas Cached

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2 hours ago, Atlas Cached said:

you stepped up from a 60CSx to the MAP 66, correct?

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, Atlas Cached said:

if you copy waypoints from any GPSr to another list in BaseCamp (you may want the same waypoint in one or more lists), and then later delete that waypoint from any of those lists, it still remains in the BaseCamp memory, as it still exists in additional lists.

This I understand well.

 

2 hours ago, Atlas Cached said:

if you are copying those waypoints from your GPSMAP 66 to the BaseCamp database, then deleting them in the BaseCamp database later, they will NOT be deleted from your GPSMAP 66. 

I understand this also.

 

The main thing that was happening and causing trouble documenting hikes was this:  Recently, I would mark and save waypoints on the GPSMAP 66 while on a hike.  When I returned home, some of those waypoints were missing.  At first I thought I must not have saved them properly.  But I determined that was unlikely as you pointed out, that is difficult to do as waypoints are saved under most all marking circumstances.  Something was messed up that "Deleting All" waypoints from the GPSMAP 66 Waypoint Manager fixed.  Once I did that everything is working as it should.

 

Thanks for your help.  I am not going to dwell on this any more as things seem to be fixed.  And, if I get things messed up again, at least I now know that deleting all waypoints using the Waypoint Manager seems to fix it.  I am fine with that anyway as a regular maintenance step as any waypoints I want to keep I put into the personal waypoint database I maintain in BaseCamp. The rest I want deleted anyway and deleting them all with the Waypoint Manager works.  Just means I then need to always remember to reload my personal waypoint db from BaseCamp.

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Excellent. If I do experience some lost waypoints in the future, I will be reviewing this post.

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15 hours ago, Cheminer Will said:

Thanks for your help.  I am not going to dwell on this any more as things seem to be fixed.

Just to chime in, 'cuz I'm not convinced anything's fixed: I had terrible experiences with waypoints on my 66st the first time I tried to use them. (This is with firmware 2.50, in case anyone thinks waypoints were all fixed up in the latest release.) I added 3 or 4, and at first they seemed fine, but as I played around, things got weird, like the wrong waypoint coming up when I selected one from the waypoint manager list. After a few minutes of playing, I started getting waypoints that were complete garbage, as if the unit was bringing up random memory as a waypoint. So I power cycled the unit, and that made all my new waypoints disappear, although the ones loaded through geocaching pocket queries were still there.

 

The problem seemed so obvious, I thought it would be easy to carefully reproduce, but further attempts seemed to work fine. The only thing that was different was that in those first waypoints, I was very trusting and carefully added notes in the information field of each waypoint. In my later tests, I just set the coordinates and the name. I haven't gone back to try adding comments again.

 

Anyway, my point is that I'm not very confident in the waypoint code. Even when it works, I don't feel like I can trust it, although I haven't had a complete meltdown again like I did that first time.

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32 minutes ago, dprovan said:

Just to chime in, 'cuz I'm not convinced anything's fixed: I had terrible experiences with waypoints on my 66st the first time I tried to use them. (This is with firmware 2.50, in case anyone thinks waypoints were all fixed up in the latest release.) I added 3 or 4, and at first they seemed fine, but as I played around, things got weird, like the wrong waypoint coming up when I selected one from the waypoint manager list. After a few minutes of playing, I started getting waypoints that were complete garbage, as if the unit was bringing up random memory as a waypoint. So I power cycled the unit, and that made all my new waypoints disappear, although the ones loaded through geocaching pocket queries were still there.

 

The problem seemed so obvious, I thought it would be easy to carefully reproduce, but further attempts seemed to work fine. The only thing that was different was that in those first waypoints, I was very trusting and carefully added notes in the information field of each waypoint. In my later tests, I just set the coordinates and the name. I haven't gone back to try adding comments again.

 

Anyway, my point is that I'm not very confident in the waypoint code. Even when it works, I don't feel like I can trust it, although I haven't had a complete meltdown again like I did that first time.

 

Thank you for that memory boost! You reminded me of another issue I experienced with my GPSMAP 66 that I had completely forgotten about where my waypoints were mixed up and garbled, and ghost waypoints were created by the unit itself! I will continue to test the waypoint marking function, and I hope others will continue to chime in here or at the GPSrChive GPSMAP 66 Discussion Forum if they find an issue.

 

 

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