New distance check between final coordinates and listing coordinates causes problems

[+kashkash]

The new distance check while editing a new unknown cache is a good feature. But it's a problem for older caches, where greater distances between final coordinates and listing coordinates were accepted. At the moment it's impossible to edit text, hints, images etc. for these older caches. The distance check should be active only in two cases: 1) Editing a new (not published) listing and 2) Editing the final coordinates of an old (published) listing. Otherwise users will not be able to keep old cache listings up to date!

Edited January 30, 2018 by kashkash

[+arisoft]

The recommended solution for this problem is to move the bogus coordinate inside the allowed radius from the final and add new reference waypoint to the original position if needed. This way you are able to edit the listing again.

[+niraD]

7 hours ago, arisoft said:

The recommended solution for this problem is to move the bogus coordinate inside the allowed radius from the final and add new reference waypoint to the original position if needed. This way you are able to edit the listing again.

Although, depending on the distance between the original posted coordinates and the new posted coordinates, you may need help from a volunteer reviewer to make the change.

[+AnnaMoritz]

As you mentioned it is about older caches that can't be edited any more, you not only may need, you will need help of a volunteer reviewer to move the header into the 2 miles radius.

Write an email, for example to your local reviewer, include gccode and the new coordinates and ask for a coordinate update.

Don't expect exceptions for your cache that is from a time when there was no 2 miles restriction or from a time when a reviewer could allow more than 2 miles if there were reasons - there won't be any. What was allowed before doesn't matter now.

[+kashkash]

Don't forget that there are many geo art, which need exceptions. In my opinion, in some cases reviewers should be able to configure another allowed radius. And why should the header coordinates of an old listing be moved into the 2 miles zone, if it's only necessary to edit the formula, hint... These old coordinates should have something like a grandfathered status, too.

[+AnnaMoritz]

That doesn't matter whether one was granted an exception or has a cache before the 2 miles rule. One might suspect that streamlining is far more important to Groundspeak than former grandfathered geocaches.

Maybe you want to read the now locked thread where Living in Narnia (Geocaching HQ Staff) posted:

"The 2 mile rule has been part of our guidelines for some time, and we are enforcing the rule (along with others) as part of the changes to the edit page. ... I would recommend changing your posted coordinates so that your cache aligns with the guidelines for mystery caches outlined here: https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=277"

Which leads to the guidelines for Mystery Caches:

"The posted coordinates of a Mystery Cache may be any one of these:

• Bogus coordinates
• Parking or trail head coordinates
• The first stage
• The final stage

If the posted coordinates are not for the final stage, the final coordinates must be added as an additional waypoint. The final stage cannot be more than 2 miles (3.2 kilometers) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up in nearby searches."

Edited January 30, 2018 by AnnaMoritz

[+noncentric]

3 hours ago, AnnaMoritz said:

That doesn't matter whether one was granted an exception or has a cache before the 2 miles rule. One might suspect that streamlining is far more important to Groundspeak than former grandfathered geocaches.

First, yes - I have read the Lackey's response in the other thread already, so I understand that they've already answered the question.

However, I still think it's a valid desire to have grandfathered caches be exempt from this new rule. I don't mean the caches that were allowed to be >2 miles away because of exceptions, as those were exceptions to an existing 2-mile rule. I'm referring to the caches that were placed before the 2-mile rule existed. It was mentioned in the other thread that there was no 2-mile rule before 2008 or 2009(?). If that is true, then it seems those caches should be exempted from having to abide by a rule that didn't exist when the cache was created.

If it's technically possible to apply a date criterion to the application of the 2-mile rule on the edit page, then it would be great to see. For example, if "hidden date" is before mm-dd-200x (someone would need to check what date the 2-mile rule was enacted), then no distance limit. Otherwise, the 2-mile distance limit applies.

I think the principle to grandfather those caches is fair. I mean, Virtual caches have not been allowed for some time, but that doesn't mean that CO's can't edit the pages of their Virtual caches that were placed when that cache type was allowed. In the same vein, false coords could be more than 2-miles away from the final years ago, so allowing CO's to edit the pages of such caches should be allowed.

If there's a technical limitation to making the exception, then so be it. Personally, I'd rather hear that GS would like to make the exception, but it's not technically feasible, than to hear that they don't believe the principle of grandfathering the rule.

Now, if the 2-mile rule always existed, contrary to what was stated in the other thread, then nevermind.

Edited January 30, 2018 by noncentric

[+kashkash]

13 minutes ago, noncentric said:

I'm referring to the caches that were placed before the 2-mile rule existed. It was mentioned in the other thread that there was no 2-mile rule in 2008 or 2009(?). If that is true, then it seems those caches should be exempted from having to abide by a rule that didn't exist when the cache was placed.

I agree with you. That's what I liked to say. And for sure it's technically possible. They just have to take into account the created date of a listing.

[+AnnaMoritz]

There was no 2 miles rule in the beginning. There weren't even final waypoints in geocache listings in the beginning, Final waypoints were introduced in 2006. Most? owners then added the waypoints for their existing geocaches.

Groundspeak obviously isn't interested any more in what was available/valid before (years ago). Be it greater distance between header of unknowns and finals, moving caches, event series with only listing and multiple logs etc. It doesn't matter what affected hiders/geocachers want or think is reasonable or technically possible.

Adapt to the new times or let it go. At least this seems to be the slogan. Whether it will help geocaching as a whole or not.

Edited January 30, 2018 by AnnaMoritz

[+NYPaddleCacher]

8 hours ago, kashkash said:

Don't forget that there are many geo art, which need exceptions. In my opinion, in some cases reviewers should be able to configure another allowed radius. And why should the header coordinates of an old listing be moved into the 2 miles zone, if it's only necessary to edit the formula, hint... These old coordinates should have something like a grandfathered status, too.

Geoart doesn't need an exception.  Geoart should comply with the guidelines like any other cache.  

[Keystone]

59 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Geoart doesn't need an exception.  Geoart should comply with the guidelines like any other cache.  

It's worth noting that the two mile limit predated the Geo Art craze by several years.  The difference now is that the website code enforces the limit instead of relying on human reviewers* to do so.  I appreciate the automation!

*Many reviewers are dogs.

[+thebruce0]

4 hours ago, noncentric said:

If it's technically possible to apply a date criterion to the application of the 2-mile rule on the edit page, then it would be great to see. For example, if "hidden date" is before mm-dd-200x (someone would need to check what date the 2-mile rule was enacted), then no distance limit. Otherwise, the 2-mile distance limit applies.

You mean published date? Hidden/placed date can be edited. Can't be trusted as a grandfathering metric.

 

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

2 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Geoart doesn't need an exception.  Geoart should comply with the guidelines like any other cache.  

It's worth noting that the two mile limit predated the Geo Art craze by several years.  The difference now is that the website code enforces the limit instead of relying on human dogs* to do so.  I appreciate the automation!

The interesting part then is that any geoarts not abiding by the 2-mile 'soft' rule were therefore exceptions. So, I tihnk the request is that there be a way for reviewers to override the 'hard' rule to allow edits to those caches without having to 'ruin' the geoart.  Personally, I understand all the reasoning for requiring that 2mile distance. But I also sort of see merit in granting (at least grandfathering) old geoart the right to keep that exception.  If you do a local search, it's definitely nice to see that the posted is within 2 miles of your center. Reasonable. I think though people can understand that a geoart clump may have so many caches that the finals may extend past that 2 mile distance.

I dunno. It's a minor point. But in this case maybe it's sort of like the now-removed Related Web Page field. If an old cache has it, let it stay as editable. If it's edited and removed, you can't get it back.

But for geoart finals >2miles (well any mystery, technically), maybe set a flag when editing - If: PublishedDate before RuleThreshold and Final-Posted>2miles, then withhold the save limitation.  If the cache is resaved so the final <2miles, then it can't be re-saved beyond 2 miles.

*reviewers

[+NYPaddleCacher]

4 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

The interesting part then is that any geoarts not abiding by the 2-mile 'soft' rule were therefore exceptions. So, I tihnk the request is that there be a way for reviewers to override the 'hard' rule to allow edits to those caches without having to 'ruin' the geoart.  Personally, I understand all the reasoning for requiring that 2mile distance. But I also sort of see merit in granting (at least grandfathering) old geoart the right to keep that exception. 

There was a bit of geoart in, if I recall, New Hampshire that was one of those exceptions and apparently the finals were scattered all over the state.  If  reviewers could grant exceptions, it would require effort on their part to change the coordinates, and they'd also get "could you confirm these coordinates" requests from geocachers all over the state that were trying to place a cache only to find that there was a conflict with a puzzle cache that was part of the geoart.     

[+thebruce0]

41 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

There was a bit of geoart in, if I recall, New Hampshire that was one of those exceptions and apparently the finals were scattered all over the state.  If  reviewers could grant exceptions, it would require effort on their part to change the coordinates(1), and they'd also get "could you confirm these coordinates" requests from geocachers all over the state that were trying to place a cache only to find that there was a conflict with a puzzle cache that was part of the geoart.(2)

1. The way I was describing, the user's edit page would allow it because it was already like that. The reviewers wouldn't have to grant anything. The fact it was published with the >2mile exception means future edits would still allow it (rather, the hardcoded limitation wouldn't apply until the distance is saved <2 miles, just as the related web page field works).  The reviewers might need to review the change, but only as much as they would for any coordinate update currently.

2. This is a good point. However that's the way it currently is, so in the small subset of geoart cases where this may apply, it's not making the job harder, it's just the ease of the hardcoded restriction doesn't apply for those rare cases. Overall the 'job' of the reviewer would still be made easier by all the geoarts (old and new) falling in line with the <2mile restriction; and future geoarts.  At worst, COs of the geoarts could be asked to consider reworking their geoart to comply with the 2mile rule. That would reduce a handful more of them I'm sure.

Basically, grandfathering mysteries with >2mile offsets wouldn't make the job harder than it current is, but the technical change to limit new caches to 2miles and makes mysteries generally easier to manage wouldn't apply for those; they'd continue as they are now.

[+The A-Team]

11 hours ago, noncentric said:

It was mentioned in the other thread that there was no 2-mile rule before 2008 or 2009(?).

It has existed in various forms since well before then, however it wasn't a hard-and-fast rule until 2015.

The oldest version of the guidelines that's available with the Wayback Machine is from 2003, and the 2-mile clause was already there. It's hard to say exactly when it was first added, but it existed in the following form until February 11, 2011:

Quote

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location.

From February 11, 2011 to February 17, 2015, it read as follows:

Quote

The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location.

Since February 17, 2015, it has read the same as it does today:

Quote

Final coordinates must be less than 2 miles (3.2 km) from the posted coordinates.