Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
PISA-caching

Stolpersteine

17 posts in this topic

A few days ago I posted a new waymark (WMVBVZ) for the "Stolpersteine" category. It was denied after a voting of the officers, because it's not from the original artist Gunter Demnig and because it's attached to a wall, while all the other Stolpersteine are on the ground. I totally understand and accept that my waymark was denied, but wanted to start a discussion about the idea of changing the description of that category. I think the main question is: Is this category focussing on the work of the artist Gunter Demnig itself or is the main purpose to draw people's attention to the victims? There are several projects that add to the original project. Others might say they are copying Demnig's idea. From the artist's point of view, it might be something bad, but from the visitor's point of view it doesn't make a big difference whether Demnig or someone else shed some light on the bitter fate of these victims.

 

From my personal point of view I have two options now. I could try to post the waymark in the Holocaust category, but I don't like the idea of having "real" Stolpersteine in one category and "almost real" Stolpersteine in another, since they almost look the same and have the same purpose. Second option is to forget about it, but that doesn't feel good either.

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

0

Share this post


Link to post

A few days ago I posted a new waymark (WMVBVZ) for the "Stolpersteine" category. It was denied after a voting of the officers, because it's not from the original artist Gunter Demnig and because it's attached to a wall, while all the other Stolpersteine are on the ground. I totally understand and accept that my waymark was denied, but wanted to start a discussion about the idea of changing the description of that category. I think the main question is: Is this category focussing on the work of the artist Gunter Demnig itself or is the main purpose to draw people's attention to the victims? There are several projects that add to the original project. Others might say they are copying Demnig's idea. From the artist's point of view, it might be something bad, but from the visitor's point of view it doesn't make a big difference whether Demnig or someone else shed some light on the bitter fate of these victims.

 

From my personal point of view I have two options now. I could try to post the waymark in the Holocaust category, but I don't like the idea of having "real" Stolpersteine in one category and "almost real" Stolpersteine in another, since they almost look the same and have the same purpose. Second option is to forget about it, but that doesn't feel good either.

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

 

Have you sent this in an email to the officers for their discussion? Any change made to the category is wholly within their control.

0

Share this post


Link to post

A few days ago I posted a new waymark (WMVBVZ) for the "Stolpersteine" category. It was denied after a voting of the officers, because it's not from the original artist Gunter Demnig and because it's attached to a wall, while all the other Stolpersteine are on the ground. I totally understand and accept that my waymark was denied, but wanted to start a discussion about the idea of changing the description of that category. I think the main question is: Is this category focussing on the work of the artist Gunter Demnig itself or is the main purpose to draw people's attention to the victims? There are several projects that add to the original project. Others might say they are copying Demnig's idea. From the artist's point of view, it might be something bad, but from the visitor's point of view it doesn't make a big difference whether Demnig or someone else shed some light on the bitter fate of these victims.

 

From my personal point of view I have two options now. I could try to post the waymark in the Holocaust category, but I don't like the idea of having "real" Stolpersteine in one category and "almost real" Stolpersteine in another, since they almost look the same and have the same purpose. Second option is to forget about it, but that doesn't feel good either.

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

 

Have you sent this in an email to the officers for their discussion? Any change made to the category is wholly within their control.

 

Well stated!

0

Share this post


Link to post

Have you sent this in an email to the officers for their discussion? Any change made to the category is wholly within their control.

 

I sent a message to the leader (to draw his attention to this forum topic), but of course it is all up to them. They don't have to discuss it (neither here nor elsewhere), they can ignore it, whatever ...

 

It's just that some of the comments of the officers sounded like "it's a borderline thing and we would have to discuss it" and I just thought that it would be easier and more efficient if the discussion is made in the forums, just like we discuss new categories or like we discussed the change of the Anamorphous Street Art category.

 

In any case I don't want to be a pain in the neck of anybody. It was just an offer.

0

Share this post


Link to post

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

 

Are you the leader or an officer of the category? Not sure I'm understanding where you are going with your WM was denied so change the category to accept it. :unsure:

0

Share this post


Link to post

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

 

Are you the leader or an officer of the category? Not sure I'm understanding where you are going with your WM was denied so change the category to accept it. :unsure:

 

No, I am not the leader of that category and no, I'm not an officer either. And no, I don't want to change the category, because I am not in the position to change it. I offered to discuss about it. That's all. I wish I had never started that thread. :(

0

Share this post


Link to post

 

The third option would be to change the description and allow Stolperstein-like memorials to be added to that category. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine and also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolpersteine_in_%C3%96sterreich list some of the projects that are similar (Steine der Erinnerung, Erinnern für die Zukunft etc.) to the original.

 

Enough said, what do the officers and maybe other contributors or visitors think? Can't wait to read your Feedback.

 

Are you the leader or an officer of the category? Not sure I'm understanding where you are going with your WM was denied so change the category to accept it. :unsure:

 

No, I am not the leader of that category and no, I'm not an officer either. And no, I don't want to change the category, because I am not in the position to change it. I offered to discuss about it. That's all. I wish I had never started that thread. :(

 

I don't understand what you wanted to discuss, other than your WM was denied and you suggested change to the category to accept your WM. Confusing. :blink:

0

Share this post


Link to post

I was the one sending this to group vote (and I voted against it).

 

In your long explanation you forgot to mention one important fact: Your Stumbling Stones" were plaques at a wall. I would have actually approved it (in spite of not being "original") had they been on the sidewalk. The idea of a "Stolperstein" (stumbling stone on German) is that one can stumble over it (That was the basic idea of raising attention to the people who lived in the houses now honored by those stones).

 

I just don't get how one could stumble over a plaque bolted to a wall four feet above ground.

 

I have no problem with adding other "Stolpersteine" to the category; in fact I would love to see that other people picked up the artists idea. But they would still have to be stumbling stones, not plaques at a wall.

0

Share this post


Link to post

 

I don't understand what you wanted to discuss, other than your WM was denied and you suggested change to the category to accept your WM. Confusing. :blink:

 

Ok, I will try to explain it one more time. Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough, blame it on my bad English.

 

"Stolpersteine" are small metal plates with the names of Holocaust victims that are produced by the mentioned artist Gunter Demnig. Here in Vienna, Austria some people wanted to order some of these, but they would have to wait for a year or more, because the artist was so busy. So they decided to create their own "Stolpersteine". The are about the same size, are also made of metal, show the name of Holocaust victims and are built into the pavement in front of the house where the victim lived.

 

If you want to compare: http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMNPJ0 is a real Stolperstein by Gunter Demnig. http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQZNR is part of the project "Steine der Erinnerung" (Stones of Remembrance) and not done by Gunter Demnig. You will see that they both look pretty similar AND they both have the same purpose. However, the description of the category is currently just allowing the work of Gunter Demnig. That means that all the other similar, but not "real" Stolpersteine would either have to be listed in the Holocaust category or the Citizen Memorials category or ??? or not at all.

 

My waymark was about 3 victims and I think that it's a good idea to create a waymark about that. If not in the Stolpersteine category, then in the Holocaust category. And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it. If the group says "No, we don't want to change anything and we don't want to talk about it", it is fine for me. If the solution is to post it in the Holocaust category, fine. If they also have a reason to deny it, ok, then I will go and search other waymarks instead. I just wanted to hear what people think. Ok?

0

Share this post


Link to post

And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it.

 

I am all for a discussion. And as said before, I would welcome other Stolpersteine, not created by the original artist. However, I think my bottom line would be: It has to be something you can STUMBLE over, meaning, something on the ground. I think anything else would dilute the category too much.

0

Share this post


Link to post

My waymark was about 3 victims and I think that it's a good idea to create a waymark about that. If not in the Stolpersteine category, then in the Holocaust category. And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it. If the group says "No, we don't want to change anything and we don't want to talk about it", it is fine for me. If the solution is to post it in the Holocaust category, fine. If they also have a reason to deny it, ok, then I will go and search other waymarks instead. I just wanted to hear what people think. Ok?

 

It does sound like something nice to Waymark, but could not be included to the Stolpersteine category. I think the proper way to discuss this would be within the category managers, and not just another my WM was denied thread.

 

I think most of us have had WM's rejected that will fit in other categories. I would submit it to the proper category and move on. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post

I was the one sending this to group vote (and I voted against it).

 

In your long explanation you forgot to mention one important fact: Your Stumbling Stones" were plaques at a wall. I would have actually approved it (in spite of not being "original") had they been on the sidewalk. The idea of a "Stolperstein" (stumbling stone on German) is that one can stumble over it (That was the basic idea of raising attention to the people who lived in the houses now honored by those stones).

 

I just don't get how one could stumble over a plaque bolted to a wall four feet above ground.

 

I have no problem with adding other "Stolpersteine" to the category; in fact I would love to see that other people picked up the artists idea. But they would still have to be stumbling stones, not plaques at a wall.

 

Once again, my main intention was NOT to get my waymark through review. I understood, that there are 2 problems with it. The "smaller" one is that it is not original. I have seen some of these that have been approved, although they are not original. I appreciate that, although I would feel better it the description would clearly allow the other ones. BTW, what do you think of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Stolpersteine_in_Rostock? I think it would be great, if the description would clearly define, what is accepted or not.

 

As far as the other problem, I can see that Stolpersteine on a wall make no sense and so far I just found out that the same association placed some plates into the pavement and a few on walls. I even sent them an email asking for the reason, but haven't received an answer yet. My guess is, that either it was too difficult to do or the city didn't allow it. Or maybe it was just temporarily attached to the wall, because they know that the pavement will soon be restored and they thought it would be much easier to include it when the pavement is renewed. I agree that they should be on the ground, because one of the ideas was that one has to bow to see them and by doing that bows to the victim. On the other hand they still share the same purpose and what if they want to put it on the pavement but merely can't for some reason? It's a difficult decision.

0

Share this post


Link to post

My waymark was about 3 victims and I think that it's a good idea to create a waymark about that. If not in the Stolpersteine category, then in the Holocaust category. And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it. If the group says "No, we don't want to change anything and we don't want to talk about it", it is fine for me. If the solution is to post it in the Holocaust category, fine. If they also have a reason to deny it, ok, then I will go and search other waymarks instead. I just wanted to hear what people think. Ok?

 

It does sound like something nice to Waymark, but could not be included to the Stolpersteine category. I think the proper way to discuss this would be within the category managers, and not just another my WM was denied thread.

 

I think most of us have had WM's rejected that will fit in other categories. I would submit it to the proper category and move on. :)

 

Ok, some more facts for you: ALL the other waymarks of this category so far are plates that are put on the ground. My waymark is the first where they attached it to the wall. In my humble opinion it is legit to ask if this could be accepted by changing the category description. And it is also legit for the group to say "no". And since they will not accept them on the wall, the next question would be: Would the Holocaust group accept them? Or is "Citizen Memorial" better? That's why I thought that discussing it in the forum would be best. This is not a rant about a denied waymark, it's the attempt to find the best solution, because there are a few more that are attached to a wall.

0

Share this post


Link to post

And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it.

 

I am all for a discussion. And as said before, I would welcome other Stolpersteine, not created by the original artist. However, I think my bottom line would be: It has to be something you can STUMBLE over, meaning, something on the ground. I think anything else would dilute the category too much.

 

All right. No Stolpersteine on walls. :-) Next try is the Holocaust category. Wish me luck. :-)

0

Share this post


Link to post

My waymark was about 3 victims and I think that it's a good idea to create a waymark about that. If not in the Stolpersteine category, then in the Holocaust category. And once again: I wanted to DISCUSS about it. If the group says "No, we don't want to change anything and we don't want to talk about it", it is fine for me. If the solution is to post it in the Holocaust category, fine. If they also have a reason to deny it, ok, then I will go and search other waymarks instead. I just wanted to hear what people think. Ok?

 

It does sound like something nice to Waymark, but could not be included to the Stolpersteine category. I think the proper way to discuss this would be within the category managers, and not just another my WM was denied thread.

 

I think most of us have had WM's rejected that will fit in other categories. I would submit it to the proper category and move on. :)

 

Ok, some more facts for you: ALL the other waymarks of this category so far are plates that are put on the ground. My waymark is the first where they attached it to the wall. In my humble opinion it is legit to ask if this could be accepted by changing the category description. And it is also legit for the group to say "no". And since they will not accept them on the wall, the next question would be: Would the Holocaust group accept them? Or is "Citizen Memorial" better? That's why I thought that discussing it in the forum would be best. This is not a rant about a denied waymark, it's the attempt to find the best solution, because there are a few more that are attached to a wall.

Okay, now I understand. :unsure: There is another similar thread. :anibad:

0

Share this post


Link to post

Next try is the Holocaust category. Wish me luck. :-)

 

I think the Holocaust category was created precisely for plaques like that. I see no reason not to approve it there. This category sometimes is a little slow, but I am pretty confident they will approve it.

0

Share this post


Link to post

By the way:

I just had a look at your other Stolperstein Submissions. There is one that does not look like it was created by the original artist (which is why we called a group vote back then) but it was approved.

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMP51C_Robert_BLICHMANN_Landstraer_Hauptstrae_4_Wien_Austria

 

I hope this concludes the discussion: If it looks like a "Stolperstein" (small and square) and is placed like a "Stolperstein" (in the sidewalk next to a house), it will be welcome in this category.

 

So, if there are similar plaques on the ground in the waymark we discussed, then please re-submit so I can have a look at it.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0