Pennsylvania State Park Caches - Permission Contact Info

[Davros]

Speaking from experience. What seems to be the problem from what I gather is going on here is that the park service is being bombarded by concerned cachers. This is all well and due, and I am sure it is with good intentions. However; keep in mind that the park officials do not like being 'ganged up on' anymore than you do. What I suggest you should do is find someone to stand in between. A listener, and a great speaker as well. Someone who can take the concerns of the caching community and voice them without bombarding the park officials with letters, names, Etc..

 

Besides the fact that this topic can be held close to heart. And some of us (myself included) tend to get frustrated and only make things worse when trying to reach a resolve. Someone level headed who does not tend to get easily upset, and is able to show a rational behaivior will win.

 

Making demands for things to happen NOW won't work. Ganging up on them won't work. In fact making demands won't work at all. Expecting things to happen overnight won't work.

 

what will work is to have one person contact the park officials and create some sort of level playing ground. Eventulally the right person will be reached and the ball will start to roll. Compromises can be made, and guidelines can be set without too much sacrafice.

 

If thier demands are not acceptable, try to reach a resolve by meeting somewhere in the middle. Demanding that they change thier point of view won't work and in fact will only make things worse.

 

I'll admit, I'm not the man for the job either. Which is why I have been lucky enough to find the BirdsFans (Ed & Kim Barber) who have done a wonderful job together at finding a resolve to some of the issues that plauge the Maryland Geocachers. With thier help we have been able to reach an agreement and draw up guidelines that have been accepted by the Central Region of the Maryland State Park Serivce. (Hopefully soon to be accepted statewide)

 

Randall J. Berry

davros@mdgps.net

[+Black Dog Trackers]

I think the 2-year limit is a good idea.

 

I don't know whether 2 years is the best amount of time or not, and it depends on the frequency of traffic and the characteristics of the forest and its plant life and in particular the plant life in the particular cache access area. In some places 2 years might be too long, while in others, 2 years would show little or no effect.

 

Certainly you don't want a visible path straight from an official trail to your cache! Would that take more or less than 2 years? It depends.

 

I can see their point. It's like crop rotation. Let the land rest once in a while.

 

Don't assume that the whole policy must be judged by the particulars of just one cache - they must make a *general* policy. Although the rule states that your cache must move in 2 years, it basically means that it's time to re-apply, and you could even re-apply for the same location and if they see there's no path, they'd probably agree to let it stay. Othewise, you'd probably agree too that it's time for the cache to move on and let the place rest. In some cases, you might agree in less than 2 years!

 

Let's be as benign as we possibly can! Not only benign to the land, but to the forest managers as well. Let the managers have their review time of 2 years - it's not a bad idea. And if they don't want to spend the time finding and going to each cache at its two year anniversary to see that there's no damage, be considerate of their time in managing the forest, not a bunch of caches, and go ahead and move it anyway.

[+gnbrotz]

Just wondering if anyone has made contact with forestry regarding the liability placed on the cache hider?

 

Greg

N 39° 54.705'

W 77° 33.137'

[+JackQuest]

Thanks MissJenn for the information. Here is my email to Mr Meade.

 

 

Charlie Meade, Park Manager

PA Bureau of State Parks Operations Section

P.O. Box 8551

400 Market Street

Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551

 

Mr. Meade:

 

I am writing you in reference to DCNR's effort to develop a policy and guidelines for the outdoor activity known as "geocaching" on state park lands. I hope the time for public comment is still open. I can remember when I placed my first cache well over a year ago, the activity was just catching on and the number of caches in my area could be counted on one maybe two hands. I even had to go over to New Jersey for the first few hunts. How the activity has grown, what started out as a, for lack of a better term, group of outdoors oriented, gps owning, internet surfers is now an activity enjoyed by all ages.

 

I have placed and maintain eight caches, six of which are on state park or forest land. It has always been my goal to introduce geocachers to those not so known parks/forests or sections of those parks/forests. I really enjoy reading a cache log entry that begins "I never knew about this....." The only negative experiences I have seen are due to ticks and poison ivy! I routinely visit my caches to check the area for impact, remove any questionable items and replace supplies. My cache containers are identified and always include a letter of explanation. After a year of exposure to the elements, I am in the process of refurbing my containers just so they do not give the impression of abandoned trash. I would like to think that I am the typical geocacher but of course there are those who are not.

 

I have included a copy of the guidelines and cache identification form at the bottom of this email . They were posted on the geocaching forum and are the basis for my comments. At first glance the guidelines are quite reasonable and researched. The only comment I have is in reference the guidelines to the five year time limit. I am curious as to how this will be enforced. I try to check on my caches at least once if not twice a year and then I record a maintenance entry in the log. There are more difficult caches out there that may only see traffic for a handful of cachers over the course of a year where others see larger amounts of cachers in a shorter period of time. My recommendation is that the site be evaluated at the 5 year point and only be moved if there is adverse impact. Personally, I think and annual visit by the cache owner is not an unreasonable request.

 

The cache identification form, in my opinion as well as other geocachers, needs further attention and clarification. Geocaching is a family activity and we are not lawyers. The language needs to be taken out of the court room and put on the trailhead kiosk.

 

The form does not address two other types of geocaches. The first being a multicache. The multicache is a series of two or more caches that lead the cacher on a sequential hunt that eventually ends with a cache that contains the trinkets. The interim caches may be actual caches or just locations where a puzzle must be solved. You would be surprised by the creative use of kiosk information sheets and park signs. The form currently only has room for one cache location. The second type of cache is a virtual cache. There is really no cache at all, just a special location with some way of verifying you were there. You may have to describe a feature or answer a question to get credit for the hunt. There isn't really anything to remove at the five year point. The form should identify the type of cache as the required actions may vary for a particular cache.

 

In reference to item 6, this is the show stopper. If I understand it correctly and I probably don't because it is written by lawyers for lawyers. How can I be held responsible for someone who trips and falls on a trail because they were looking for my geocache? It has been my understanding from the beginning that geocaching is a "play at your own risk" activity, period. I have in front of me an orienteering map titled "Orienteering at French Creek" compliments of the Delaware Valley Orienteering Association. French Creek has a self guided permanent orienteering course. Did DVOA have to sign a similar form? If they did they were foolish. If I injure myself while orienteering on this permanent course is DVOA the responsible party? There is a safety note on the map that states" SAFETY NOTE:Park areas contain hazards not normally encountered. We told the Park Rangers we'd remind you that you are responsible for your and our groups' safety." I don't see a whole lot of difference between this activity and geocaching. I would be more than happy to add this disclaimer to my cache, cache container and website. It appears this issue has previously been examined.

 

I applaud you and DCNR's efforts to proactively address the needs and concerns of the park system as well as those who participate in the activity of geocaching. When the policy is made official and it has been made easier to understand and more realistic in its expectations, I will gladly go through the motions to comply and promote the great natural resources that the Keystone State has to offer. If DCNR maintains the current user unfriendly legal maze, I will sadly withdraw my caches and support for future DCNR activities.

 

Thank you so much or your time and consideration. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

TEAM JackQuest

 

TEAM JackQuest (8H/11F)

Jack, Cyber & Drager

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

[+JackQuest]

Looks like I missed a more recent page of the of the forum. God I hate that.

 

TEAM JackQuest (8H/11F)

Jack, Cyber & Drager

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

[+JackQuest]

Here was my revised reply:

 

Mr Meade:

 

I see that I had some outdated information and that DCNR has for the most part adopted guidelines being used by other state agencies. It appears by the revisions, I wasn't too far out too lunch with my concerns. I find the new guidelines somewhat easier to follow. But since I am a user of the infamous ammo cans (it should be noted I do take the time paint them, identify them as geocaches and to remove the military markings) I have to ask that some common sense be practiced.

 

? Cache(s) shall not be placed in a military ammo box or PVC pipe. A transparent type container is required (Tupperware, Gladware, Pretzel Barrel, etc.)

 

I understand completely the reasoning behind the guideline, but I feel the location should dictate the container type and be handled on a case by case basis. I don't remember any fallen oak root balls in the middle of a recently logged area of Ricketts Glenn showing up on the heightened awareness lists after bridges and national landmarks. The proposed required containers have proven in most cases to be durable. It has been my experience, that there is a likelihood of these containers becoming separated from their lids (whether by human or animal), thus exposing the contents to the weather and giving the appearance of discarded trash. Like I said since I was an ammo can user I had to speak up for their responsible use.

 

If possible, please forward the applicable forms to me when they are finally approved or instructions on how they can be obtained. However, I will most likely be removing my caches due to my investment of time and money in the use of the now outlawed ammo cans unless I decide to invest again in suitable and compliant replacement containers.

 

Thanks again for your effort, time and consideration. I should have read one more page of the forum before initially responding!

 

TEAM JackQuest

 

TEAM JackQuest (8H/11F)

Jack, Cyber & Drager

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

[Mike Chmi]

Hi Jackquest,

 

Just thought I'd let you know that I had written Mr. Meade earlier about the ammo cans as well. I can see the parks point but I think ammo cans have some obvious plusses. Not sure if anything wil happen or not, he did however change the form to include multi caches after I mentioned them to him and they also obviously fixed the biggest problem with the idemnifcation clause. Hopefully the state forests will be as willing to work with us.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+JackQuest]

Adopt a Park/State Forest

 

I think we know that enforcement is going to be a low priority due to staffing and budgets. And if the option is go out and check it or just email to have it removed and issue the fine (worst case) of course, As part of the current DCNR Volunteer Program a geocacher from the area acts as the geocache liason for activity in the park.

 

TEAM JackQuest (8H/11F)

Jack, Cyber & Drager

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40° 20.268' W 75° 37.969' (WGS84)

[+Salvelinus]

Last weekend I was doing some maintenance on my Gum Boot Hill cache and noticed a log entry dated August 4 which said "Checked on cache today everything seemed okay" and signed by the Moshannon State Forest Ranger (No Name). I'm pretty sure this person also left a bunch of excellent literature about the State Forest in the cache. He/She also left a business card. I figured it was now a good time to get both of my caches on this State Forest registered.

 

I took the day off today and traveled to the State Forest Headquarters (45 minute drive) in hopes of getting my caches registered. To make a long story short, nobody in that office had any idea what geocaching was and none of them heard about a policy relating to it. In their defense, they did mention that the guy who probably left the card would know about it but he was out for the day. They did give me a name and number of someone in Harrisburg who I should contact. I plan on doing this ASAP. I left them the printout pages from my cache pages and a business card of my own just in case I need to be contacted to register them in the future.

 

This confirmed to me that Forestry is not ready to deal with this yet as registration forms were not available. Knowing this agency and state government in general, I truly expected the response I received. So, keep letting your views known because it seems the policy for the Bureau of Forest is not as far along as rumored. At least up here in the "sticks", anyways!

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+briansnat]

Oddly enough I've read some Geocaching regulations where the authorities insisted on ammo boxes, or similar animal proof containers. I don't see why PA is against them.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller

[+gnbrotz]

Has anyone received draft copies of the State Park policy LATER THAN AUGUST 7 which lists the "no ammo box" policy. I notice it was mentioned on Page 2 of this thread. That message was posted on Aug 2. When I contacted Mr. Mead, He replied to me on Aug 7, attaching (draft) copies of both the policies and approval form. The documents I received from him do not mention ammo boxes in any way.

 

BTW, I would argue that upon purchase, my boxes cease to be "military ammo boxes" and become "private citizen geocache containers". I have all my boxes sandblasted before I repaint them and apply the official cache sticker. To me it a nice sturdy box that's waterproof. If this policy persists (along with the liability issue in the Forestry's version) I'll be placing no more caches in state parks/forests. The caches I've archived will clearly state why, and I'll do my best to NOT support those agencies in any way.

 

I did visit my local office yesterday afternoon. The man I spoke with was aware of geocaching and the existence of a policy, though he could not find the forms I requested. He suggested I go home and retrieve them from the DCNR website. I told him that they weren't available there, so he proceeded to login and search for himself....just as I said, not there. Once again, the STATE hindering my attempt to comply while a deadline has already been set!

 

Greg

N 39° 54.705'

W 77° 33.137'

[+Quest Master]

Good News! Mr. Meade has indicated to me that he is now inclined to remove the prohibition against ammo cans from the final draft of the policy. He has said that he received quite a few emails on this subject and decided that they would be okay after discussing the matter with some of the park rangers who have caches in their parks. I think that we all would agree that he did have a valid concern and was just doing his job when he added that item to the policy. Search out the topic "Violent Death of a Cache" and give it a read if you think otherwise. I suggested that he might instead prohibit the hiding of geocaches in/on/near structures or in campgrounds or picnic areas since I think that these are the kinds of places that a cache might be discovered by accident and cause a panic regardless of the type of container used.

 

The lesson to take from this is that we have at least one person at the DCNR who is listening to us. The emails are working! It has been suggested that we should have an organization and should speak with one voice but I prefer that it should be handled this way for the time being. I prefer that nobody should speak for me and that I should not speak for anyone else. It is better if the bureaucrats will consider the good, the bad, and the ugly from geocachers and park managers and come up with a policy that everyone can live with. Mr. Meade has promised that he will let us know when a final version of the policy and permission form is ready. Speak out if there is anything that you don't like. If you have a cache in a state park that you did not get permission to hide then it is high time that you introduce yourself to the park manager and explain geocaching to them. It will go a long way toward getting this game to work in the parks.

 

Bad News! I got the forms from the State Forest this past Thursday. The are exactly as Cooper has posted them. Thanks Coop! It really does seem that Parks & Forests must have been working together on this since the policy and permission forms are almost identical. It couldn't have been an accident. I think that they probably share a common starting point which may be the same office of legal counsel. I do not indend to sign this form. I am hoping that they will follow the lead of the Bureau of State parks and adopt a policy and permission form similar to what they come up with. I have to say that I am going to be really mad if they confiscate my cache in the meantime! I'm sure it won't come to that. The must have better things to do.

 

I really like the idea of having volunteers within the geocaching community to help the DCNR to regulate geocaching. It just so happens that the Bureau of Forestry sent me a "Conservation Volunteer" form with their piece of crap "Geocache Identification Form and Agreement". Hmmmmm....

 

Johnny

[+gnbrotz]

Perhaps Mr. Meade would be willing to speak with the head of Forestry. It might go a long way for Forestry to see the progress we/Parks have made together. I still don't have a specific name/contact for Forests in Harrisburg.

 

**UPDATE**

I just sent off an e-mail to Mr. Meade thanking him for all his cooperation, and applauding the decision to revise the ammo can policy. I also suggest the his communicating with the head of Forestry directly may help us resolve our concerns with their policy. I'll let you know how he replies. I've also asked for a DIRECT contact name at the Forestry dept.

 

Greg

N 39° 54.705'

W 77° 33.137'

 

[This message was edited by gnbrotz on August 19, 2002 at 06:07 PM.]

[jnc1991]

I apologize if this has already been discussed, I was too tired to look through all the posts. I just started this sport last week...and as most newbies are, am fascinated with it. I have a suggestion, why don't we form an organization such as Northwestern Pennsylvania Geocachers? It does not have to get all formal but something to unite our voice. Could be a good thing. If this has been mentioned already, or an organization already exists please let loose on me! Thanks. Happy caching!

 

JNC

[jnc1991]

Either no one is interested or people from NW Pa are not coming to this forum...

 

If there are Geocachers reading this from NW Pa, please contact me regarding the forming of a cachers group. If you are in the area and don't like the idea please tell me that also, and why you would not be interested. As stated before, if a group already exists, please tell me!

 

Thanks,

JNC

jnc1991@hotmail.com

[+Cachier]

Rather than bury your request on page 3 of this thread, why not begin a new thread and put your subject on the Northeast Forum index. You will get more visability and possibly a better response.

 

Cachier

Northeast Pa

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Cachier]

Rather than bury your request on page 3 of this thread, why not begin a new thread and put your subject on the Northeast Forum index. You will get more visability and possibly a better response.

 

Cachier

Northeast Pa

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[jnc1991]

That would make sense...thanks for the suggestion!

 

JNC

[Mike Chmi]

If I ever meet him I'll have to buy him a beer. He really does seem to be a great guy, all my contacts with him have been great and he really does seem willing to go the extra mile to get things done right, if only all land stewards were like he is.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Shoebox]

Now that we have the cooperation of the Pennsylvania State Parks, perhaps we should do something towards helping them enforce the permit system. I'm sure that a number of cache owners are not aware of the permit requirement and certainly new players won't be aware of it either, so we may find a lot of new caches placed in the State Parks without permits and we will loose the good will Mr.Meade has helped establish. Perhaps including a statement at the top of the page of State Park caches, clearly stating that this cache required a permit in State Parks perhaps other cachers will get the hint. And when we don't see that statement on a new cache, we can check with the owner to make sure they are following the rules. And if it comes to it, we can point it out to the State Parks and have the cache archived until they follow the rules. Otherwise, a few players not following the rules could ruin it for everybody.

[+Quest Master]

Shoebox must have been sending me a telepathic message or something. I actually pitched this idea to Mr. Meade on August 21. I suggested to him that he should make it a requirement to put some kind of statement on the cache description page which would say something to the effect that geocaches in state parks must be registered. I really don't think that there is any other effective way to make people aware of the policy. It is regrettable that people do not go the the park office and ask permission before hiding a cache but I believe that this is and continues to be the rule rather than the exception for new cache hides. I suspect that the cachers reading this message board are in the minority and that the majority are still completely unaware of the policy. As Shoebox has suggested, if there were a way for us to identify unregisterd geocaches, the geocaching community could and should be able to police itself by encouraging those persons with unauthorized geocaches to register them. The park managers should not have to check the website every so often to see if any new unauthorized caches have appeared in their park. We should be able to do that for them. They can concentrate on checking to see that the geocaches are not hidden in inappropriate areas.

 

Johnny

[+The Leprechauns]

I also agree with Shoebox, and thanks Johnny for discussing this with Charlie Meade.

 

Way back on July 26th in this thread, I wrote:

quote:

---

Everyone who reads this should consider politely contacting caching buddies who may have an existing cache in a state park. I wouldn't mind receiving such a private e-mail... what I would NOT like is a note from a stranger who sounds like the Geocache Police. Remember, not everyone reads these forums so it's important to spread the word.

---

 

Everyone should know the State Park caches in their own area. If the hider has not posted in this thread, and especially if you know that person well, drop them an e-mail! I will be writing a note to a geocacher who has placed a GREAT group of caches near Pittsburgh, one of which is in a State Park, to alert him to this issue.

 

Of course, Shoebox has no time right now to write letters, until he finishes finding the multicache that I hid.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

[+The Leprechauns]

I also agree with Shoebox, and thanks Johnny for discussing this with Charlie Meade.

 

Way back on July 26th in this thread, I wrote:

quote:

---

Everyone who reads this should consider politely contacting caching buddies who may have an existing cache in a state park. I wouldn't mind receiving such a private e-mail... what I would NOT like is a note from a stranger who sounds like the Geocache Police. Remember, not everyone reads these forums so it's important to spread the word.

---

 

Everyone should know the State Park caches in their own area. If the hider has not posted in this thread, and especially if you know that person well, drop them an e-mail! I will be writing a note to a geocacher who has placed a GREAT group of caches near Pittsburgh, one of which is in a State Park, to alert him to this issue.

 

Of course, Shoebox has no time right now to write letters, until he finishes finding the multicache that I hid.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

"Daddy, are we there yet? No, .17 to go. Are we there yet? No, .16 to go....."

[+Cachier]

To further the good intentions of the last posts by Quest Master and The Leprechauns, perhaps now would be a good time for someone in the know to advise this community of the current status of the guidelines and the permission forms.

I've been patiently waiting for all of this to shake-out prior to approaching the local State Park people to register my cache.

 

°Have the forms been finalized?

°Have they hit the PA Parks website yet?

°Are they in the hands of State Park Supervisors?

°Is the Park Staff ready to handle Geocache permit requests?

 

If so, I'll be heading out there one night this week to take care of some cache business.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Cachier]

To further the good intentions of the last posts by Quest Master and The Leprechauns, perhaps now would be a good time for someone in the know to advise this community of the current status of the guidelines and the permission forms.

I've been patiently waiting for all of this to shake-out prior to approaching the local State Park people to register my cache.

 

°Have the forms been finalized?

°Have they hit the PA Parks website yet?

°Are they in the hands of State Park Supervisors?

°Is the Park Staff ready to handle Geocache permit requests?

 

If so, I'll be heading out there one night this week to take care of some cache business.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+gnbrotz]

The info sent to me by Mr. Meade was stamped 'draft'. I don't think either policy is complete yet, although I've heard of no modifications to the Forest's policies. I still don't even have the name of a 'real' person (that actually has the power to modify the policy) to contact.

 

There are NO refereces of any type to 'geocache' or 'geocaching' on the DCNR website.

 

I haven't actually visited a Park yet, but the local forest office knew of the policy, though they 'couldn't find' the forms to give me.

 

Tonight I e-mailed the local land manager the following:

 

quote:

---

Dear Mr. Mishler,

 

Could you please provide me with the contact info for someone in Harrisburg responsible for forming the new geocaching policies.

 

I have been following this policy development through the Geocaching web forums and I have been encouraged by the willingness of the Parks office to work with geocachers in developing a sensible policy. Unfortunately, I still have some concerns regarding the Forest Dept.'s policies.

 

My main concern at this time is the liability placed on geocachers for offenses that may be comitted by others. The policy does not (in my opinion) clearly state what the limits of liability would be, or how liability would be determined. I certainly will not blindly agree to assume liability that could be arbitrarily assigned to me. Many geocachers, myself included, have had a meaningful dialog with Mr. Meade (Parks) and the geocaching community feels that their latest draft is well thought out and fairly meets the needs of all parties involved. We hope to make similar progress with the Forests Dept. I also would welcome any thoughts/discussion you might have on this matter. Even if you are not part of the "official" drafting process, as a land manager in my area, I would appreciate your input.

 

I look forward to a positive dialogue with you and the DCNR regarding this activity. I am more than happy to answer any questions you may have about geocaching.

 

Greg Rotz

---

 

As of yesterday, I have removed my two caches which were in state forests. They are temporarily deactivated for now, as I hope to avoid having to archive them.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+gnbrotz]

Well, today I received this reply from my local forestry office:

 

quote:

---

Mr. Rotz:

 

Geocaching is rather new to me, but I think I understand the activity. I'm somewhat surprised that parks (Do you mean PA State Parks?) policy is different that Forestry's. You can contact our Harrisburg office by e-mail to forestrecreation@state.pa.us to express your concerns.

 

Neal Mishler

Forester

Michaux State Forest

Pennsylvania Bureau of Forestry

717-352-2211

---

 

I replied with the following:

 

quote:

---

Mr. Mishler,

 

Yes, I do mean PA State Parks. Their policy started out as a jumble of legalese, much like the current Forest policy. Through dialog with geocachers and park managers, the policy has been modified to meet the needs of all parties involved. The major differences are length of time the cache can remain, type of container required, and as mentioned previously, liability issues.

 

I have already tried to make contact through the e-mail address you mentioned. I received a generic form-type letter with no name signed. What I need is a REAL PERSON, with a direct e-mail address, so that the geocaching community can establish a dialog with the parties actually involved in creating the policy.

 

Greg Rotz

---

 

It sure seems to me like I'm beating my head against the wall! Does anyone have any suggestions? My work schedule coincides with the Forestry Office hours, so I am unable to go in person and try to explain further. I'm beginning to think if they are this complacent about it, maybe I should just put my caches back out. Surely if you can't be bothered to come up with a name, you won't take the time to actually find and confiscate these things!

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[zormsk]

Ok, I've read all the posts herein. Let me say up front that my son is a lawyer, and so unlike most people, I have much respect for the profession.

 

That said, I have a hard time understanding how placing a cache can create a personal liability. The only way I can see that claim being tenable is if you place the cache itself in a dangerous location: halfway up a cliff and someone falls off; down an abandoned well, and someone falls in; inside a rattlesnake den site, and someone gets bitten, etc.

 

The mere act of attempting to reach a safely placed cache cannot in and of itself cause a liability. If it could, malls could be sued whenever someone had a car accident while trying to go shopping. For that matter, State Parks would be liable for car accidents occurring anytime someone was trying to get to them (i.e. if the park didn't exist, I wouldn't have had the accident!).

 

Of course, park managers should have the last say on placing physical caches. Some parks may not be compatible with the sport - a civil war battlefield comes to mind...a certain reverence or decorum might be desirable. Or, a park that is home to endangered plants and animals. But others should welcome the inflow of campers, hikers, etc. geocaching creates. It would help justify the park's existence and protects jobs. Let them decide on a case by case basis.

[Mike Chmi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by zormsk:

Ok, I've read all the posts herein. Let me say up front that my son is a lawyer, and so unlike most people, I have much respect for the profession.

 

That said, I have a hard time understanding how placing a cache can create a personal liability.

---

 

I can think of another lawyer I have great respect for, the forums very own The Leprachauns! Hopefully I'll have that new multi out for you soon.

 

That being said, I agree I don't really see how placing a cache can cause personal liablity, or why the parks originaly and forest still did require the idemnifacatin clause (which definately can cause problems). My guess is that they didn't udnerstand caching, when Mr. Meade replied to me he indicated that the clause is only used for potentially dangerous situations ones that add some element of danger not usually there, ie rifle clubs, fencing, bungee jumping, attack dog training, etc.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[Mike Chmi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by zormsk:

Ok, I've read all the posts herein. Let me say up front that my son is a lawyer, and so unlike most people, I have much respect for the profession.

 

That said, I have a hard time understanding how placing a cache can create a personal liability.

---

 

I can think of another lawyer I have great respect for, the forums very own The Leprachauns! Hopefully I'll have that new multi out for you soon.

 

That being said, I agree I don't really see how placing a cache can cause personal liablity, or why the parks originaly and forest still did require the idemnifacatin clause (which definately can cause problems). My guess is that they didn't udnerstand caching, when Mr. Meade replied to me he indicated that the clause is only used for potentially dangerous situations ones that add some element of danger not usually there, ie rifle clubs, fencing, bungee jumping, attack dog training, etc.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Shoebox]

Yes we are reasonable people and caching is a reasonably safe sport and no reasonable person would sue you for anything that happens during a cache hunt. But that said, the world is unfortunately full of unreasonable people and some of them will do something like twist their ankle or trip over a log and break their wrist blocking their fall and they will be quick to sue the owner, in this case the state. And with the liability clause they want us to sign, all they have to say is they are protected, go sue the cache owner who has taken responsibility in writing. The state has a stable of lawyers to fend off these unreasonable suits but I personally do not and could be ruined just defending myself. I'm sure I am suggesting a worst-case scenario but it is possible.

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shoebox:

Yes we are reasonable people and caching is a reasonably safe sport and no reasonable person would sue you for anything that happens during a cache hunt. But that said, the world is unfortunately full of unreasonable people and some of them will do something like twist their ankle or trip over a log and break their wrist blocking their fall and they will be quick to sue the owner, in this case the state. And with the liability clause they want us to sign, all they have to say is they are protected, go sue the cache owner who has taken responsibility in writing. The state has a stable of lawyers to fend off these unreasonable suits but I personally do not and could be ruined just defending myself. I'm sure I am suggesting a worst-case scenario but it is possible.

---

 

Although I'm not speaking for them, I don't believe the liability question pertains to anything that happens while hunting or placing caches. Since they seem not to worry about falls and broken ankles for any other activity they allow, such as hiking.

 

I believe they don't want to assume responsibility for anything that may happen to someone caused by the actual physical cache. For example, someone cuts their hand while trying to open the cache. The state dosen't want to assume liability for that type of situation. That's still a weak reason for worrying about any liability from geocaching.

 

When all this first started, I'm sure they asked themselves "Does allowing this activity increase our liability?". Being somewhat uneducated about geocaching at that time, their answer was "I don't know" so, to be safe, their solution was to have participants sign over liability. Once people like Mr. Meade understood what this activity was all about, their solution became more favorable.

 

As long as we keep up dialog with the Bureau of Forestry, they will have a favorable policy as well.

 

By the way, I've made attempts to register my caches located on State Forest. Neither office had any idea a policy existed, let alone forms. I left my business card and cache pages at the regional office for them to contact me if needed. Thus, I decided not to pull my caches yet.

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Salvelinus]

I've noticed at least 6 local caches that have been archieved by the owner due to the proposed DCNR policy that still dosen't exist yet.

 

Cachers can certainly do what they wish, but I think this is over-reacting. The DCNR has already eliminated at least 6 caches without even doing a thing.

 

I hope those caches get activated again someday.

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Cachier]

I went to Ricketts Glen last night to service my cache. On the way out at about 8 pm I stopped by the office to question the current status of the regulations but they were already closed for the evening.

 

I'm an optimist! I'm 'Hanging in' waiting for good things to happen in Harrisburg. The seeds have been planted and we've thrown a lot of good fertilizer on it. Lets now be patient now to see the quality of the crop.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Cachier]

I went to Ricketts Glen last night to service my cache. On the way out at about 8 pm I stopped by the office to question the current status of the regulations but they were already closed for the evening.

 

I'm an optimist! I'm 'Hanging in' waiting for good things to happen in Harrisburg. The seeds have been planted and we've thrown a lot of good fertilizer on it. Lets now be patient now to see the quality of the crop.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cachier:

I went to Ricketts Glen last night to service my cache. On the way out at about 8 pm I stopped by the office to question the current status of the regulations but they were already closed for the evening.

 

I'm an optimist! I'm 'Hanging in' waiting for good things to happen in Harrisburg. The seeds have been planted and we've thrown a lot of good fertilizer on it. Lets now be patient now to see the quality of the crop.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

---

 

I'm so glad to here you say that! I'm visiting my family in Williamsport this weekend and a trip to Ricketts Glen is in my Saturday plans. I hope to visit both caches there on the same trip!

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cachier:

I went to Ricketts Glen last night to service my cache. On the way out at about 8 pm I stopped by the office to question the current status of the regulations but they were already closed for the evening.

 

I'm an optimist! I'm 'Hanging in' waiting for good things to happen in Harrisburg. The seeds have been planted and we've thrown a lot of good fertilizer on it. Lets now be patient now to see the quality of the crop.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

---

 

I'm so glad to here you say that! I'm visiting my family in Williamsport this weekend and a trip to Ricketts Glen is in my Saturday plans. I hope to visit both caches there on the same trip!

 

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+MissJenn]

Based on this poll, the discussion has now continued over at Part 2: PA State Parks geocaching guidelines

 

Please post your response over there. THANKS!

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on September 30, 2002 at 10:10 AM.]