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HikingSeal
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The guideline to prevent moving event is simply Groundspeak having too much time on their hands instead of actually listening to their paid users. Under their guidelines, excellent events like this one are now banned as they are moving events.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2BE1F_3rd-annual-paddle-bike-or-hike-the-augusta-canal?guid=41af9d3b-fb5f-4f95-a456-69db884e55fb

 

Which is completely absurd to ban those events. It's more Groundspeak losing it's connection with their geocachers.

 

How about instead of focusing on ways to alienate geocachers, to perhaps FIXING and IMPROVING things like Waymarking, Wherigo, and benchmark hunting. Focus on making a better app. Stuff like that.

 

Groundspeak loses it's focus that this is meant to be a fun game.

Edited by gpsblake
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It seems reasonable to point out that you can drink beer or eat pizza and make these activities an event, but you can't make a hike an event without adding an activity to stand around in one place for half an hour.

The event listing really only needs to leave a window where, presumably, people can be there. That could mean the event listing owner, a proxy, a geocaching association or their representative, general attendees, etc. might be at the coordinates for a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

It's a window to allow for those who might not be willing or able to go the activity listed in the event to attend and socialize in a way that might be more appropriate for them. Cezanne socializes on the trail; John Doe Cacher can't hike, but would like to still have the opportunity to catch other cachers to socialize before they might, in the hiking cache example, take off on the hike from the trailhead.

 

Still a "cake and eat it too" event. And yes, it bans events that were previously under 30 minutes. Oh well. It's not like 30 minutes is that hard of a guideline to meet...we've been through the myriad of ways people can list an event and still meet the guidelines as they are today.

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The guideline to prevent moving event is simply Groundspeak having too much time on their hands instead of actually listening to their paid users. Under their guidelines, excellent events like this one are now banned as they are moving events.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2BE1F_3rd-annual-paddle-bike-or-hike-the-augusta-canal?guid=41af9d3b-fb5f-4f95-a456-69db884e55fb

 

Which is completely absurd to ban those events. It's more Groundspeak losing it's connection with their geocachers.

 

How about instead of focusing on ways to alienate geocachers, to perhaps FIXING and IMPROVING things like Waymarking, Wherigo, and benchmark hunting. Focus on making a better app. Stuff like that.

 

Groundspeak loses it's focus that this is meant to be a fun game.

Hmm....

 

Reads to me that this event would still be entirely possible under the guidelines.

 

They list the "hike/paddle/bike" as the event, and also list a spot to meet for lunch beforehand. Seems to me that it would be simple enough to say, "Meet at the launch coordinates by 3:00pm so we can account for whoever might want to tag along with the hikers, bikers, and paddlers of their choice. We'll depart the coordinates at 3:30pm..."

 

Not a difficult clarification, especially as the event reads that there is ample time within the timeframe the listing owner has presented to have people able to join at the listed coordinates for the minimum required time of 30 minutes.

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The guideline to prevent moving event is simply Groundspeak having too much time on their hands instead of actually listening to their paid users. Under their guidelines, excellent events like this one are now banned as they are moving events.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2BE1F_3rd-annual-paddle-bike-or-hike-the-augusta-canal?guid=41af9d3b-fb5f-4f95-a456-69db884e55fb

 

You don't think

"If you would like to join other cachers for lunch before the paddling event,

come and fill your Belly Up at Ryan's Family Steak House

208 Bobby Jones Expressway.

We will meet at 11AM until 1PM. Reservations are under : Salutations"

would fit the requirements with the "event" at Ryan's?

 

However,

"Lunch - $6.59 for Adult

2 to 3 years of age - $.99

4 to 7 years of age - $2.99

8 to 11 years of age - $4.99

Drinks are $1.99

A 15% Gratuity will apply"

- could make it iffy again. :)

Edited by cerberus1
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The guideline to prevent moving event is simply Groundspeak having too much time on their hands instead of actually listening to their paid users. Under their guidelines, excellent events like this one are now banned as they are moving events.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2BE1F_3rd-annual-paddle-bike-or-hike-the-augusta-canal?guid=41af9d3b-fb5f-4f95-a456-69db884e55fb

 

You don't think

"If you would like to join other cachers for lunch before the paddling event,

come and fill your Belly Up at Ryan's Family Steak House

208 Bobby Jones Expressway.

We will meet at 11AM until 1PM. Reservations are under : Salutations"

would fit the requirements with the "event" at Ryan's?

 

However,

"Lunch - $6.59 for Adult

2 to 3 years of age - $.99

4 to 7 years of age - $2.99

8 to 11 years of age - $4.99

Drinks are $1.99

A 15% Gratuity will apply"

- could make it iffy again. :)

Yup.

 

And see my post above.

 

Then add in the ease of the host/listing owner using the "Announcement" log type to tell people that they can join for lunch at X coordinates, instead of listing it in the event description. All the listing owner needs to do is make it clear that there is a window of 30 minutes where people can count on the event coordinates being those where they can meet, greet, and join in the fun of the hike/bike/paddle if they can or want to.

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Sure, one can make a hike/kayak/bike event compliant by including a 30 minute period at a fixed location.

 

For many people who organize these events adding that period may not be as trivial as you make it. You need a location where everyone can stand around comfortably for the period. Maybe that means some shelter from the elements. Maybe that means benches or picnic tables to sit at. Maybe it means drinking water, or toilet facilities. For some people 30 minutes is short enough to do without, but that can't be generalized. Particularly as people who may not be physically able to do the hike/kayak/bike may attend this compliance activity.

Most people who are going to be hiking, paddling, or riding in inclement weather will come prepared with rain jackets; others can bring umbrellas. Most people who are going to be hiking, paddling, or riding will bring drinking water with them; others can bring a jug of water. Most people don't need toilet facilities for a 30 minute period; those who do usually know how to cope.

 

Only a few will add the compliance activity now that it must be at least 30 minutes.

I hope you have a receipt for your crystal ball. At least in my part of the world, events are continuing normally.

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I cannot cope with 100+ people who all expect to be welcomed, a few sentences here and there, a bit of smalltalk there and not the chance to talk more intensely with some people

when the topic becomes interesting.

 

This just has to be an excuse. Events more or less run themselves. There is no obligation to hold hands and do sing-a-longs at an event. Some of the biggest events in our area are hosted by the infamous King Boreas and he usually just sits at a table and waits for cachers to come to him to talk (no, not because he has an attitude, but because he's naturally shy and introverted).

 

I have the same fears so I choose to host events with a specific theme.. paddling events, rappelling events, etc.

Funny thing is, I remember a KB event (the one that became Mega, at Long Lake Regional Park) where Ian was actually one of a few folks who did say hello while I was munching on snacks and waiting for some side-event to start (film can toss, I think?). :laughing:

 

There were hikes around the park, games on the lawn, food on the grills, conversations in the parking lot...what a drag!

 

Yeah, reminds me of this pic:

 

I-Had-Fun-Once-It-Was-Awful.jpeg

 

You were there? Drat! I would have loved to have met you.

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The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...

 

Of course they have.

 

An event which should be about hiking and where 90% of the participants only come to the parking lot during the initial 30 minutes period (= the actual event for Groundspeak) is a completely different atmosphere than an event where the event is the hike and the participants take part in the hike.

 

A hiking event where one of the participants can't seem to get over the new guidelines is going to affect the atmosphere a whole lot more than the guidelines themselves.

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The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...

 

Of course they have.

 

An event which should be about hiking and where 90% of the participants only come to the parking lot during the initial 30 minutes period (= the actual event for Groundspeak) is a completely different atmosphere than an event where the event is the hike and the participants take part in the hike.

 

A hiking event where one of the participants can't seem to get over the new guidelines is going to affect the atmosphere a whole lot more than the guidelines themselves.

 

My point is rather that due to the effect on the atmosphere and the real nature of an event, many events that have taken place before some of the guideline changes do not take place after the changes. So your scenario does not occur in this setting.

 

It's not any longer about the events itself, but mainly about giving everyone the chance to write an attended log regardless of whether the event itself fits that person or not. I do not mind if people write an attended log if they think that need to. It's a different type of thing however if the log writing business has a major impact on the way of events that are publishable.

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It seems reasonable to point out that you can drink beer or eat pizza and make these activities an event, but you can't make a hike an event without adding an activity to stand around in one place for half an hour.

The event listing really only needs to leave a window where, presumably, people can be there. That could mean the event listing owner, a proxy, a geocaching association or their representative, general attendees, etc. might be at the coordinates for a minimum of 30 minutes.

 

It's a window to allow for those who might not be willing or able to go the activity listed in the event to attend and socialize in a way that might be more appropriate for them. Cezanne socializes on the trail; John Doe Cacher can't hike, but would like to still have the opportunity to catch other cachers to socialize before they might, in the hiking cache example, take off on the hike from the trailhead.

 

Still a "cake and eat it too" event. And yes, it bans events that were previously under 30 minutes. Oh well. It's not like 30 minutes is that hard of a guideline to meet...we've been through the myriad of ways people can list an event and still meet the guidelines as they are today.

By your own examples, spending 30 minutes in a fixed location in the middle of the hike would allow it to be published. The only reasonable way to be able to socialize at that location would be to go on the hike. If can you get to the location of the event it seems you would be willing and able to do the hike. So I can't believe that Groundspeak could use that as the rationale for these rules. Talk about having your cake and eating it!

 

It makes no sense to say you need a window to allow for those who might not be willing or able to go on the activity listed in the event to attend and socialize, when you can schedule your 30 minutes of standing still in the middle of the hike. Why not just use the rule that always gets invokes for caches someone doesn't like or thinks is too hard. If you don't like or can't participate in the activity then don't attend.

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The guidelines have nothing to do with "atmosphere"...

 

Of course they have.

 

An event which should be about hiking and where 90% of the participants only come to the parking lot during the initial 30 minutes period (= the actual event for Groundspeak) is a completely different atmosphere than an event where the event is the hike and the participants take part in the hike.

 

A hiking event where one of the participants can't seem to get over the new guidelines is going to affect the atmosphere a whole lot more than the guidelines themselves.

 

My point is rather that due to the effect on the atmosphere and the real nature of an event, many events that have taken place before some of the guideline changes do not take place after the changes. So your scenario does not occur in this setting.

 

It's not any longer about the events itself, but mainly about giving everyone the chance to write an attended log regardless of whether the event itself fits that person or not. I do not mind if people write an attended log if they think that need to. It's a different type of thing however if the log writing business has a major impact on the way of events that are publishable.

 

And MY point is that your attitude is going to make or break any event you go! YOU make the atmosphere.

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And MY point is that your attitude is going to make or break any event you go! YOU make the atmosphere.

 

Maybe I should use a different word than atmosphere to make clear what I have in mind. Regardless of the participating people the atmosphere is different on a lonesome mountain summit than for example in a noisy restaurant. A boring parking lot does not provide the same atmopshere than a scenic lookout point etc

 

It also makes a huge difference whether the participant group is rather homogenous or very heterogenous. The first situation allows for more in-depth communication and not only more or less smalltalk.

Edited by cezanne
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My point is rather that due to the effect on the atmosphere and the real nature of an event, many events that have taken place before some of the guideline changes do not take place after the changes. So your scenario does not occur in this setting.

 

It's not any longer about the events itself, but mainly about giving everyone the chance to write an attended log regardless of whether the event itself fits that person or not. I do not mind if people write an attended log if they think that need to. It's a different type of thing however if the log writing business has a major impact on the way of events that are publishable.

 

Well, I will continue to host my kayaking/hiking events (in the middle of the woods) as I have for several years now, in the same manner as I have done. People will attend them and enjoy themselves on the way in , either by boat or by hiking.

 

I have a very strong suspicion that if the smiley went away, I would not loose a single attendee to these events. We've discussed that at length over many beers and bourbons. Most of the attendees come not for the smiley, but the fun, and the adventure and the socializing on the way in, during, and on the way out.

 

For me, the guideline changes will not make a difference - I just have to make sure the event is 30 minutes or longer (they usually are much longer), and are stationary for that time frame.

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And MY point is that your attitude is going to make or break any event you go! YOU make the atmosphere.

 

Maybe I should use a different word than atmosphere to make clear what I have in mind. Regardless of the participating people the atmosphere is different on a lonesome mountain summit than for example in a noisy restaurant. A boring parking lot does not provide the same atmopshere than a scenic lookout point etc

 

It also makes a huge difference whether the participant group is rather homogenous or very heterogenous. The first situation allows for more in-depth communication and not only more or less smalltalk.

 

OK, then... mood. Once again, the attitude of the attendees is what makes or breaks the event, whereever it is held.

 

Of COURSE the atmosphere is different in those two circumstances. And it still will be different once you get to that mountain summit. Just as that mountain summit atmosphere disappears when you return to civilization. That hasn't changed with the 30 minute guideline. That was always true, and always will be.

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Maybe I should use a different word than atmosphere to make clear what I have in mind. Regardless of the participating people the atmosphere is different on a lonesome mountain summit than for example in a noisy restaurant. A boring parking lot does not provide the same atmopshere than a scenic lookout point etc

 

 

So host the event on the mountain summit!!!! Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing it!!!!

 

And guess what? Along the way up to that summit you can chat with other cachers along the way!

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And MY point is that your attitude is going to make or break any event you go! YOU make the atmosphere.

 

Maybe I should use a different word than atmosphere to make clear what I have in mind. Regardless of the participating people the atmosphere is different on a lonesome mountain summit than for example in a noisy restaurant. A boring parking lot does not provide the same atmopshere than a scenic lookout point etc

Then have your event posted at the summit instead of a restaurant or "boring parking lot". Done deal.

 

It also makes a huge difference whether the participant group is rather homogenous or very heterogenous.<sic> The first situation allows for more in-depth communication and not only more or less smalltalk.

Humanity is heterogeneous. Geocachers, as a subset of humanity, are no different.

 

That is, unless you begin to narrow your variability of personalities. For example, by posting in the morning versus evening. Weekday versus weeknight. Indoors or outdoors. Focus of birding versus focus of ice skating. On, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...

 

And even so, you'll still have a heterogeneous group of personalities--you can't control for each personality in a random sample group--no matter how much you limit or narrow the variability of like interests. (Do you really want to go down the social science path? Don't worry...I've got this.)

 

So, you put on an event, and you see how it goes. You put on an event, you try to target your audience, and you will still not capture 100% of your target within the parameters of geocachers attending an event...that is, unless 01110100 01101000 01100101 01111001 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110010 01101111 01100010 01101111 01110100 01110011 00101110

 

You see?

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Of COURSE the atmosphere is different in those two circumstances. And it still will be different once you get to that mountain summit. Just as that mountain summit atmosphere disappears when you return to civilization. That hasn't changed with the 30 minute guideline. That was always true, and always will be.

 

Not with the 30 minute guideline in its own right (I never said that), but by a combination of all the changes that took place which make events where the hike is the event impossible.

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Humanity is heterogeneous. Geocachers, as a subset of humanity, are no different.

 

That's why I wrote rather homogenous and very heterogenous.

 

That is, unless you begin to narrow your variability of personalities. For example, by posting in the morning versus evening. Weekday versus weeknight. Indoors or outdoors. Focus of birding versus focus of ice skating.

 

Right and exactly this narrowing does not work any longer in many respects (it still works with time of course).

But e.g. it does not work for ice skating. In my opinion something is wrong with the scenario of a hiking event with a 30 minute initial period where 90 participants visit the starting point and 10 stay for the hike. The same is true for an ice skating event where 20 are on the ice and 120 are not on the ice.

 

Of course one cannot control personalities and this was definitely not what I had in mind - neither I had in mind to discuss social science issues. I'm just trying to explain what has changed through the guidelines changes (all taken together) which cannot compensated for by using a different style of write-ups for events.

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Of COURSE the atmosphere is different in those two circumstances. And it still will be different once you get to that mountain summit. Just as that mountain summit atmosphere disappears when you return to civilization. That hasn't changed with the 30 minute guideline. That was always true, and always will be.

 

Not with the 30 minute guideline in its own right (I never said that), but by a combination of all the changes that took place which make events where the hike is the event impossible.

 

If you play a broken record long enough you will eventually ruin your needle. The needle is getting quite dull. Cheezits.

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So host the event on the mountain summit!!!! Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing it!!!!

 

And guess what? Along the way up to that summit you can chat with other cachers along the way!

 

Typically exactly that is not happening (at least not around here). Small groups are formed that go for caches and the meeting just takes place on the summit.

While with a well chosen route and without leaving time for caching on the way, it will happen only in special circumstances that someone might step out to search for a geocache off the even route. I'd rather say that the new event setup fosters group geocaching hunts much more than the old form of hiking events I appreciate ever could have.

Edited by cezanne
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Humanity is heterogeneous. Geocachers, as a subset of humanity, are no different.

 

That's why I wrote rather homogenous and very heterogenous.

No, you wrote:

It also makes a huge difference whether the participant group is rather homogenous or very heterogenous.<sic>

To me you're not recognizing the fact that all people are going to be more heterogeneous, including a group of geocachers. No matter how you try to whittle down the target audience, your argument is irrelevant. Events are what events are, no matter how hard you try.

 

That is, unless you have events where there are "the usual suspects" only in attendance, and you can guess that they'll all attend only if it is a certain kind of event (hike, e.g.). And in that case, you can still have that certain kind of event, so long as it is at the set coordinates for at least 30 minutes.

 

That is, unless you begin to narrow your variability of personalities. For example, by posting in the morning versus evening. Weekday versus weeknight. Indoors or outdoors. Focus of birding versus focus of ice skating.

 

Right and exactly this narrowing does not work any longer in many respects (it still works with time of course).

But e.g. it does not work for ice skating. In my opinion something is wrong with the scenario of a hiking event with a 30 minute initial period where 90 participants visit the starting point and 10 stay for the hike. The same is true for an ice skating event where 20 are on the ice and 120 are not on the ice.

 

Of course one cannot control personalities and this was definitely not what I had in mind - neither I had in mind to discuss social science issues. I'm just trying to explain what has changed through the guidelines changes (all taken together) which cannot compensated for by using a different style of write-ups for events.

 

You're becoming more clear on your stance with events. You want them to be precisely what you want, and what you want only. You want only those who will participate in the event as you intend to attend, and only if they do what you want to do at the event.

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Events are what events are, no matter how hard you try.

Maybe you are reading too much into the guideline saying "An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game."

 

The fact the event is open to other geocachers does not mean that it has to be of interest to all geocachers. I bet there are many geocachers who would not attend an event at restaurant because they wouldn't be interested in meeting other geocachers in that environment. But they may be interested in hiking or ice skating. Different events with different activities are going to attract different geocachers.

 

cezanne may be overly concerned that a half hour spent before the hike is going to attract a bunch of people just interested in getting a smiley and not the group that shares his interest in hiking. As has been pointed out, if this is the case, those who leave to go on the hike will be spending more of their time hiking together than the half hour they were forced to deal with other cachers. Most of them can even show up just before the hike leaves if they want to avoid socializing with the non-hikers.

 

I'm still more concerned that events organized around some activity that moves might not be listed simply because the half hour add on is going to be seen as burdensome (even if you all think it is trivial). I could be wrong, but I look back to before advent of flash mobs. People didn't have a way to share a hike, particularly if they couldn't convince the reviewer that the primary purpose was to have an organized hike and not to organize a cache hunt. So these events were seldom listed.

 

When flash mobs became popular they provided a way to use the event to publicize hikes and cache hunts. This may have been perceived as abusing the flash mob to get around other guidelines (Nobody has suggested this but I will). Rather than proposing a hokey fix of making the flash mob part last 30 minutes, TPTB could have looked at why this was so popular and have gone the other way to allow hikes and even organized cache hunts to be listed. They apparently even experimented with this and had reported what seemed to be favorable results. So I wonder why the choose the path they did.

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So I wonder why the[y] choose the path they did.

 

It's probably not an insurmountable leap of logic to suppose that some small segment of the Community took the idea to some ridiculous conclusion that didn't resemble an Event anymore, let alone Geocaching. Kind of like taking a dirty old shoe, or a dead animal carcass and submitting it as a Virtual, type of scenario.

 

Gosh, am I the only one that remembers when Events took place at the posted coordinates? :rolleyes:

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Well, I will continue to host my kayaking/hiking events (in the middle of the woods) as I have for several years now, in the same manner as I have done. People will attend them and enjoy themselves on the way in , either by boat or by hiking.

 

I have a very strong suspicion that if the smiley went away, I would not loose a single attendee to these events. We've discussed that at length over many beers and bourbons. Most of the attendees come not for the smiley, but the fun, and the adventure and the socializing on the way in, during, and on the way out.

 

For me, the guideline changes will not make a difference - I just have to make sure the event is 30 minutes or longer (they usually are much longer), and are stationary for that time frame.

 

I also tend to believe that in your case the change will not make a real difference. That does not mean however that other types of events in other places are not affected in an essential way.

 

For example, hosting an event e.g. at the summit of the highest mountain close to my home town still would not be the same as having an event which is about the hike as the summit is reachable by a cable car. Also many other potential locations that are not just at an arbitarily selected place mid way which is not suitable for a larger group have the property that they are easy to reach by alternative approaches. It's not about controlling what people do, but it changes the group of the participants significantly if alternative approaches exist. Furthermore, in my area if an event takes place at a location that requires a hike which is however not part of the event it becomes more and more common that cachers choose their approach depending on the set of caches they might want to find and take all different routes. That's not any longer going a hiking event to me. Your experiences with your events seem to be quite different and that's probably why the guideline changes did not affect you.

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Well, I will continue to host my kayaking/hiking events (in the middle of the woods) as I have for several years now, in the same manner as I have done. People will attend them and enjoy themselves on the way in , either by boat or by hiking.

 

I have a very strong suspicion that if the smiley went away, I would not loose a single attendee to these events. We've discussed that at length over many beers and bourbons. Most of the attendees come not for the smiley, but the fun, and the adventure and the socializing on the way in, during, and on the way out.

 

For me, the guideline changes will not make a difference - I just have to make sure the event is 30 minutes or longer (they usually are much longer), and are stationary for that time frame.

 

I also tend to believe that in your case the change will not make a real difference. That does not mean however that other types of events in other places are not affected in an essential way.

 

For example, hosting an event e.g. at the summit of the highest mountain close to my home town still would not be the same as having an event which is about the hike as the summit is reachable by a cable car. Also many other potential locations that are not just at an arbitarily selected place mid way which is not suitable for a larger group have the property that they are easy to reach by alternative approaches. It's not about controlling what people do, but it changes the group of the participants significantly if alternative approaches exist. Furthermore, in my area if an event takes place at a location that requires a hike which is however not part of the event it becomes more and more common that cachers choose their approach depending on the set of caches they might want to find and take all different routes. That's not any longer going a hiking event to me. Your experiences with your events seem to be quite different and that's probably why the guideline changes did not affect you.

 

You keep throwing up reasons why things can't/won't work, and never consider that with some simple changes on the host's part, things could work.

 

Summit event: Who cares if people can reach the event by cable car? By your own admission, you don't care who logs an event. So enjoy the walk up with the people who share your joy of the hike, and not worry about the people who reach the event some other, easier, way. You'll probably have a better time than they will.

 

"Cache rich" paths to the event: See above. Or maybe find a location that has very few caches on the way in. Looking in the area of some of your hides, the area does not appear to be so cache dense that you can't find a nice walk where you are not going to stumble over a cache every 200m. Zwolferkugel looks like a nice spot for a walk. And it appears that there's a nice little clearing at the top. Surely there are other locations in the beautiful mountains of Austria? Burgstalle Hohe? I am sure I could come up with others (and I bet you and other locals could as well).

 

You, and from the sounds of it, others, don't seem willing to even try to work within the modified guidelines to try to make things work. And until you try it, and see what comes out of it, you'll be miserable.

 

What's the expression..."Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"...I think that fits here.

 

[edit: grammar]

Edited by BBWolf+3Pigs
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You keep throwing up reasons why things can't/won't work, and never consider that with some simple changes on the host's part, things could work.

 

I agree that there are certain settings which work better than others. My point was that a lot of settings will not work any longer nicely due to the changed.

 

Summit event: Who cares if people can reach the event by cable car? By your own admission, you don't care who logs an event. So enjoy the walk up with the people who share your joy of the hike, and not worry about the people who reach the event some other, easier, way. You'll probably have a better time than they will.

 

I care because it means that during what counts as the official event one has to deal with all the participants.

As an event host you cannot simply ignore everyone who does not join the hike and you have to make sure to have a meeting point which can deal with the number of expected participants (the same by the way is true when choosing a parking location as event location).

 

The available infrastructure also limits what could be used as event location in my area. There are lots of target destinations where parking is an issue for a larger group. Then more or less mainly the easier reachable places remain. It has been so much easier to plan events at the times when no more than 30 people were to be expected in the worst case.

 

 

"Cache rich" paths to the event: See above.

 

I did not say necessarily cache rich and certainly did not mean a cache every 200m (I hate such areas and try to avoid them). I rather meant that different groups choose different starting points and go for different caches in between when the event is the meeting at the header coordinates and not the hike. There is no motivation any longer to stay together as event group when the event does not include the hike and is optional.

 

You, and from the sounds of it, others, don't seem willing to even try to work within the modified guidelines to try to make things work. And until you try it, and see what comes out of it, you'll be miserable.

 

What I realized in recent years (only the 30 minutes change is very new) is that the number of events attractive for me is in decline. As I have said before, many others have already given up (not only with respect to events).

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You keep throwing up reasons why things can't/won't work, and never consider that with some simple changes on the host's part, things could work.

If it's so easy to get around the guideline restriction, why can't the guidelines simply allow the desired cache?

 

Or, to put the question another way, if there's something so terrible the guidelines have to be expanded in order to prevent it, won't people wanting to do that terrible thing find it just as easy to dance around the restrictions in exactly the same way?

 

That's not a rhetorical question: I'd really love to hear some examples of the terrible things that are being prevented and how, exactly, these same workarounds can't be used for them.

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Events are what events are, no matter how hard you try.

Maybe you are reading too much into the guideline saying "An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game."

And you think I disagree with that? How does this show anything relevant to what I was saying?

 

I know events can have non-geocachers there. And even so, the event is what it is, and people can choose to attend or not--even if they are a geocacher or not.

 

The fact the event is open to other geocachers does not mean that it has to be of interest to all geocachers. I bet there are many geocachers who would not attend an event at restaurant because they wouldn't be interested in meeting other geocachers in that environment. But they may be interested in hiking or ice skating. Different events with different activities are going to attract different geocachers.

 

cezanne may be overly concerned that a half hour spent before the hike is going to attract a bunch of people just interested in getting a smiley and not the group that shares his interest in hiking. As has been pointed out, if this is the case, those who leave to go on the hike will be spending more of their time hiking together than the half hour they were forced to deal with other cachers. Most of them can even show up just before the hike leaves if they want to avoid socializing with the non-hikers.

 

I'm still more concerned that events organized around some activity that moves might not be listed simply because the half hour add on is going to be seen as burdensome (even if you all think it is trivial). I could be wrong, but I look back to before advent of flash mobs. People didn't have a way to share a hike, particularly if they couldn't convince the reviewer that the primary purpose was to have an organized hike and not to organize a cache hunt. So these events were seldom listed.

 

When flash mobs became popular they provided a way to use the event to publicize hikes and cache hunts. This may have been perceived as abusing the flash mob to get around other guidelines (Nobody has suggested this but I will). Rather than proposing a hokey fix of making the flash mob part last 30 minutes, TPTB could have looked at why this was so popular and have gone the other way to allow hikes and even organized cache hunts to be listed. They apparently even experimented with this and had reported what seemed to be favorable results. So I wonder why the choose the path they did.

To me, you've answered your own question. The new clarification "bans" simple 5-minute drop in/drive by events, and asks that listing owners and hosts are more deliberate about how they will facilitate socialization. Meaning, all they need to do is allow for a little more time for those who might be late, might want to meet other cachers but otherwise wouldn't be willing or able to go out hiking or skating or whatever, etc.

 

To allow for more socialization, and to open the door to the uninitiated, a 5-minute flash mob isn't very attractive or conducive to socialization for a noob. To make it more possible to meet and get to know others, the guideline opens the window further to make sure that duration isn't a deterrent. It can be argued that 30 minutes might be a deterrent for cezanne and friends, but we've shown that there are ways to get around it clearly in the cache description etc. E.g., one can just show up for the few minutes prior to departure if they don't want the "boring parking lot", and the noob can show at the beginning and have a chance to meet more people, and the non-hiker can still meet and chat with others before they depart up the trail.

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You keep throwing up reasons why things can't/won't work, and never consider that with some simple changes on the host's part, things could work.

If it's so easy to get around the guideline restriction, why can't the guidelines simply allow the desired cache?

 

Or, to put the question another way, if there's something so terrible the guidelines have to be expanded in order to prevent it, won't people wanting to do that terrible thing find it just as easy to dance around the restrictions in exactly the same way?

 

That's not a rhetorical question: I'd really love to hear some examples of the terrible things that are being prevented and how, exactly, these same workarounds can't be used for them.

 

I don't think that is how the guidelines are meant to be interpreted. Just because something isn't in the spirit of geocaching or in accordance with a cache type doesn't mean it's terrible.

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You keep throwing up reasons why things can't/won't work, and never consider that with some simple changes on the host's part, things could work.

If it's so easy to get around the guideline restriction, why can't the guidelines simply allow the desired cache?

 

Or, to put the question another way, if there's something so terrible the guidelines have to be expanded in order to prevent it, won't people wanting to do that terrible thing find it just as easy to dance around the restrictions in exactly the same way?

 

That's not a rhetorical question: I'd really love to hear some examples of the terrible things that are being prevented and how, exactly, these same workarounds can't be used for them.

 

Pure speculation here, but I wouldn't be surprised that there haven't been requests for 60 1-minute flash mob "events" over an hour's time and stuff like that. I'm guessing at least some of it comes down to reviewers having to put too much effort into that sort of thing, much in the same way that reviewers put their collective feet down when it comes to bringing virtuals back. But again... just my own little guess.

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To allow for more socialization, and to open the door to the uninitiated, a 5-minute flash mob isn't very attractive or conducive to socialization for a noob. To make it more possible to meet and get to know others, the guideline opens the window further to make sure that duration isn't a deterrent. It can be argued that 30 minutes might be a deterrent for cezanne and friends, but we've shown that there are ways to get around it clearly in the cache description etc. E.g., one can just show up for the few minutes prior to departure if they don't want the "boring parking lot", and the noob can show at the beginning and have a chance to meet more people, and the non-hiker can still meet and chat with others before they depart up the trail.

I'm trying to figure out if you're listening to what you are saying.

 

"To allow for more socialization" - a four hour hike doesn't have enough time for socialization? You have to add 30 minutes in the parking lot?

 

"Open the door to the uninitiated" - as I understand things, the "uninitiated" (by definition) aren't on GC.com to find out about the event(s). They would need to be invited by someone (whether for a hiking or eating/drinking event). A private party in a restaurant (any GC event is one, even if they are willing to let 'outsiders' in, the outsiders don't know that), whether in the dining room or 'party' room is just like a group of people getting ready at a trailhead for a hike - strangers don't generally join to see what is happening.

 

As to the workaround for the "boring parking lot" - the noobs show up on time to talk to other noobs, while the hikers arrive to leave on the hike - where is the socializing? It's two different events for different interest groups - except there is no listed time for the hike to start (using the end time of the event means the hike is NOT part of the event).

 

Events should like other caches types - if you don't like them/aren't interested in them, don't come to them. But, no, they have to be all the same so everyone can join in. How blah.

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Events should like other caches types - if you don't like them/aren't interested in them, don't come to them. But, no, they have to be all the same so everyone can join in. How blah.

 

I think there is a happy medium between events always being for everyone, and "events" that are actually exclusionary meetings for very select groups of people.

 

I don't think the guideline changes necessarily succeed in finding thay happy medium.

Edited by narcissa
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I do not think the new guideline inherently and fundamentally and intentionally favours boring events over active events.

I think the HOSTS and the ATTENDEES determine the quality of the event happenings, and how much socializing happens. The reviewer merely looks at the cache, and makes the judgement as to whether the event listing is satisfactory for facilitating the best potential for the type of social and geocaching-related activities of which Groundspeak has decided they want Official Geocaching.com Event Listings to be defined. That means some activities can no longer define the Event Listing, period.

Yes, there could be boring events. Yes, there could be non-social events. That has always been the case. The new guideline does not promote that in any way. It's entirely up to how much work the host decides to put into creating a fun event for all geocachers who decide to attend, and how friendly, accepting, interactive, and social the attendees decide to be amongst the other attendees.

Edited by thebruce0
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To allow for more socialization, and to open the door to the uninitiated, a 5-minute flash mob isn't very attractive or conducive to socialization for a noob. To make it more possible to meet and get to know others, the guideline opens the window further to make sure that duration isn't a deterrent. It can be argued that 30 minutes might be a deterrent for cezanne and friends, but we've shown that there are ways to get around it clearly in the cache description etc. E.g., one can just show up for the few minutes prior to departure if they don't want the "boring parking lot", and the noob can show at the beginning and have a chance to meet more people, and the non-hiker can still meet and chat with others before they depart up the trail.

I'm trying to figure out if you're listening to what you are saying.

 

"To allow for more socialization" - a four hour hike doesn't have enough time for socialization? You have to add 30 minutes in the parking lot?

 

"Open the door to the uninitiated" - as I understand things, the "uninitiated" (by definition) aren't on GC.com to find out about the event(s). They would need to be invited by someone (whether for a hiking or eating/drinking event). A private party in a restaurant (any GC event is one, even if they are willing to let 'outsiders' in, the outsiders don't know that), whether in the dining room or 'party' room is just like a group of people getting ready at a trailhead for a hike - strangers don't generally join to see what is happening.

 

As to the workaround for the "boring parking lot" - the noobs show up on time to talk to other noobs, while the hikers arrive to leave on the hike - where is the socializing? It's two different events for different interest groups - except there is no listed time for the hike to start (using the end time of the event means the hike is NOT part of the event).

 

Events should like other caches types - if you don't like them/aren't interested in them, don't come to them. But, no, they have to be all the same so everyone can join in. How blah.

Are you reading what has already been said, or are you wearing blinders??

 

THE HIKE ISN'T THE PROBLEM.

 

The timeframe (window) is a minimum requirement. A hike can still go on, and can last for 10 days if you like. All that needs to occur is for the listing to be clear that the minimum time window requirement has been met for the listed coordinates.

 

This isn't that hard a concept...or is it? :blink:

 

I'm guessing--grasping at answers to explain--why Groundspeak made the clarification, and essentially banned short events (under 30 minutes, including most "flash mob" and drive-by events).

 

As an example, I can see that a noob might not see a 5-minute flash mob as an opportunity to meet other cachers , so they would bypass the event. Also, if the event is only about the hike, it can't be published and would also restrict those who might otherwise want to be able to attend and mingle, but can't physically do the hike or bike or whatever.

 

My examples aren't meant to be exhaustive or all-inclusive. They are examples. The only way to deal with this is to try to publish an event as you desire, and see how to work with the Reviewer and within the guidelines to get it published. It's not that hard...or is it...? (again...) :blink:

 

A hike event can and would still get published, so long as it is clear that the 30-minute at the posted coordinates guideline is met.

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As an example, The Jester, here is an event you attended, hosted by the OP: http://coord.info/GC51CKM

 

That Event is rather overt about it being a hike with caching going on along the way.

  1. It was published by a reviewer, despite the fact that it is clear about the gathering to hike and geocache
  2. It would not meet the new guidelines becasuse it doesn't give a 30-minute window at the coordinates
  3. It didn't meet the guidelines as I've seen them enforced anyway, because it lists that geocaching is part of the purpose
  4. It would get published today if the owner dropped the geocaching language, and included a minimum of 30 minutes at the listed coordinates

 

What's the problem with the new guidelines, again? :unsure:

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I'm guessing--grasping at answers to explain--why Groundspeak made the clarification, and essentially banned short events (under 30 minutes, including most "flash mob" and drive-by events).

And again, to reiterate, flash mobs can still happen, just as long as something happens for at least 30 minutes at the posted coordinates. Consider a staging area. Meet at gz, prepare, then head to a location or execute a plan that is a flash mob, then regroup at gz, as long as someone's always at gz. Or, use the half hour to prep, and go off (after the event) to execute the flash mob.

It's not a ban on flash mobs, it's just a minimal requirement that "an event" occur at the posted coordinates for at least 30 mintues.

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Also, if the event is only about the hike, it can't be published and would also restrict those who might otherwise want to be able to attend and mingle, but can't physically do the hike or bike or whatever.

 

It's this last part of the statement that reminds me once again of something which also contributes to the fact that I do not like the event guidelines. There is no reason that every event has to offer a possibility to mingle for everyone. In the same way as some people will not be able to mingle at an event hold in a room with smokers, others will not be able to mingle at a hiking event.

I do not know if the second part of your statement is one of Groundspeak's arguments against moving events, but if it were, I'd be extremely annoyed.

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Also, if the event is only about the hike, it can't be published and would also restrict those who might otherwise want to be able to attend and mingle, but can't physically do the hike or bike or whatever.

 

It's this last part of the statement that reminds me once again of something which also contributes to the fact that I do not like the event guidelines. There is no reason that every event has to offer a possibility to mingle for everyone. In the same way as some people will not be able to mingle at an event hold in a room with smokers, others will not be able to mingle at a hiking event.

I do not know if the second part of your statement is one of Groundspeak's arguments against moving events, but if it were, I'd be extremely annoyed.

Ummm, according to Groundspeak, the idea is to foster socialization. Put it together with the "spirit of geocaching", and the other guidelines, and it appears that Groundspeak is taking a stand that events should be inclusive not exclusive.

 

See my above quote about how it appears you like events to be. Then, also, help me understand how to align your stance on events when you also say that you don't care how/why people log "attended" at an event. <heavy eyeroll> <_<

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Cezanne will try to find any example of an event or event activity that will appear to nullify any defense for a guideline. And of course, will always succeed.

Which is entirely beside the point.

There is no rule set that will guarantee, in every way, an event that will always be entirely successful in that it is an ideal activity for every person to have the best social experience while excitedly taking part in a geocaching-related activity. Impossible.

Cezanne will never be satisfied until this is understood.

And the arguing will continue as long as the guidelines are continually explained, and countered by any example situation demonstrating a not-so-good event, whether by general opinion, or cezanne's opinion.

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Ummm, according to Groundspeak, the idea is to foster socialization. Put it together with the "spirit of geocaching", and the other guidelines, and it appears that Groundspeak is taking a stand that events should be inclusive not exclusive.

 

What is the difference between "excluding" someone you cannot go for a hike from a hiking event and "excluding" someone who is allergic against smoke from an event in a smoky room?

I used quotation marks because I do not regard these cases as exclusive events.

 

Then, also, help me understand how to align your stance on events when you also say that you don't care how/why people log "attended" at an event. <heavy eyeroll> <_<

 

There is a big difference between logs of indivual cachers and Groundspeak's stance on what warrants an event.

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There is no reason that every event has to offer a possibility to mingle for everyone.

So what, exactly, is the purpose of an event?

Don't ask that.

Cezanne's purpose for an event is different than Groundspeak's.

 

Yeah, I guess in my heart of hearts, I know this.

 

Anyway, I'm setting up an event where I'm renting isolation tanks for half an hour. For the event, everyone will get their own tank. There is to be no speaking, standing, or smoking during the 30 minute event. Please log your will attend so I know how many to rent.

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There is no reason that every event has to offer a possibility to mingle for everyone.

 

So what, exactly, is the purpose of an event?

 

My intent was not to say that there should be an event that offers no chance for mingling, but just that not every event needs to be suitable for every cacher.

 

It does not make sense to me to argue that a hiking event should offer the chance to mingle for those who cannot or do not want to go for a hike.

It's also perfectly ok to host an event in a restaurant which is not reachable for people in a wheel chair.

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I don't think that is how the guidelines are meant to be interpreted. Just because something isn't in the spirit of geocaching or in accordance with a cache type doesn't mean it's terrible.

I was being dramatic. Substitute "must be prevented" for "terrible" if it helps you answer the question.

 

Pure speculation here, but I wouldn't be surprised that there haven't been requests for 60 1-minute flash mob "events" over an hour's time and stuff like that.

That's a good guess, and really the only thing I can think of, too, but it's truly trivial to put in rules to prevent serial events without stopping hikes or individual flashmobs. So the more obvious example is simply any flashmob: obviously GS feels those should be prevented. Yet this doesn't really prevent them because, as others have just explained, the same solution works for a flashmob: declare it will be 30 minutes, but then everyone can leave after the mob flashes. Well, some people are saying the CO has to stay the full 30 minutes, but I'm still not seeing how the guidelines require even that.

 

Basically, GS wants all events to be parties. No other kind of event is to be allowed. If you want to take a hike or go rafting, those activities must happen after the 30 minute party is over. I'm not sure why they're so intent to limit events to parties, but obviously from the discussion on this thread, they have a lot of support.

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I don't think that is how the guidelines are meant to be interpreted. Just because something isn't in the spirit of geocaching or in accordance with a cache type doesn't mean it's terrible.

I was being dramatic. Substitute "must be prevented" for "terrible" if it helps you answer the question.

 

Pure speculation here, but I wouldn't be surprised that there haven't been requests for 60 1-minute flash mob "events" over an hour's time and stuff like that.

That's a good guess, and really the only thing I can think of, too, but it's truly trivial to put in rules to prevent serial events without stopping hikes or individual flashmobs. So the more obvious example is simply any flashmob: obviously GS feels those should be prevented. Yet this doesn't really prevent them because, as others have just explained, the same solution works for a flashmob: declare it will be 30 minutes, but then everyone can leave after the mob flashes. Well, some people are saying the CO has to stay the full 30 minutes, but I'm still not seeing how the guidelines require even that.

 

Basically, GS wants all events to be parties. No other kind of event is to be allowed. If you want to take a hike or go rafting, those activities must happen after the 30 minute party is over. I'm not sure why they're so intent to limit events to parties, but obviously from the discussion on this thread, they have a lot of support.

 

I do not see a lot of support for the decision in this thread, I'm neither for nor against the change as GS has not stated the reason they made it so I can't judge. I think this thread is more about the confusion of cezanne's reaction to the change than anything else.

Edited by Roman!
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There is no reason that every event has to offer a possibility to mingle for everyone.

So what, exactly, is the purpose of an event?

Don't ask that.

Cezanne's purpose for an event is different than Groundspeak's.

 

Yeah, I guess in my heart of hearts, I know this.

 

Anyway, I'm setting up an event where I'm renting isolation tanks for half an hour. For the event, everyone will get their own tank. There is to be no speaking, standing, or smoking during the 30 minute event. Please log your will attend so I know how many to rent.

 

:P Sarcastic, but funny.

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