Single-language listings and hints

October 22, 2014

I'm going to visit Germany soon. While preparing for this trip I found that cache listings (including hints) were typically in German language only. Sadly, my knowledge of German is poor and it's likely that I may fail at a cache because I will not be able to translate the hint correctly. I wish I had an opportunity to exclude "non-translated" caches from a PQ but I don't think that the website has this option.

The only way I see now is to just upload all caches to my GPS device and look through all the hides in some particular area "manually", one by one, before going there. Then probably apply some automated translator (like Google translate) to single-languaged caches and see if it works. Translate descriptions and hints, save them to text files, save these files and upload them to my device too. Pretty much working.

Any other suggestions? (Without a requirement of using of any online services in field)

October 22, 2014

Perhaps there are more bookmarklists like http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=c4840756-127c-4274-bf85-50ddae7ab2fd "German Caches with English Description".

The icon tourist-friendly sometimes may give a hint, but I won't count on it.

When caching elsewhere with incomprehensible language I try to concentrate on the places I want to go aside from Geocaching and look up a few caches there

- to identify old caches, in the early years it was common to have english descriptions.

- to see who logs (also) in English and look for their caches, as they often provide english versions.

If you want a solid translation of a particular cache, not automatic garbage, some german-speaking geocaching forums have a place for 'caches that need translation' or you could ask someone for help.

If you've got a smartphone, offline app versions of online dictionaries are available like dict.cc for various languages. That helps for simple listings and above all for hints.

Translating everything in advance seems to much work for the possible outcome in my opinion.

Edited October 22, 2014 by AnnaMoritz

7.5k · October 22, 2014

When I was in Germany, I generally just didn't worry about it much. I did do some of the things you mention, mainly looking at individual caches and translating them if I felt the need, typically just reading the description on the web and trying to remember what it said in the field. But generally I went to the coordinates, looked at the size and ratings, and then just searched. If I didn't find it right away, I might look at the description to see if there was English or perhaps one of the German words I knew, and once in a while there was something helpful in a log written in English. (I also had a couple of people with me that assured me they "knew" German from high school classes, but they were basically no help at all...)

But I was basically there as a tourist, so geocaching was only a secondary concern, and I wasn't trying to get large numbers of caches.

The most important thing is, as usual, to remember you're having fun even if you can't find the cache. I found the biggest "translation" I needed wasn't on the web: it was the local style of hiding where everyone local knows to look there, while I, as a tourist, didn't even realize "there" was there, and probably would have been hesitant to look there even if I had known. (We were just talking about LPCs in another thread; those would be a good example.) That problem comes up even when I'm caching in the United States.

October 22, 2014

I will also visit Germany as a tourist and geocaching will be not the first purpose. I remember how fruitful was my geocaching in Ireland - I used caches to get to areas which I wouldn't even think of, many really nice places, each one with its own history, and I got much information from cache descriptions. With texts in German only I will most probably loose this part of the game because "automatic garbage" isn't so great for tourism.

I'm looking through the caches in central Leipzig now and have run into only two of them with English translation into and one where the the CO translated the hint only. I understood already that I have to get rid of all puzzles, multisteps and traditional caches with difficulty level of 3 and more.

I discovered however that automatic translation from German into English is not as awful as from German into Russian (obviously, English and German languages belong to one group). I read the whole text about Edward Grieg and could understand quite clearly how this Norwegian composer had been connected with Leipzig. I think that probably this way of translation could be an option. I will take into account your recommendations on smartphone apps (yes, I usually geocache with a smartphone when I'm in a big city). BTW, does anyone know good offline translation apps for Android? I mean, have you ever tried one for geocaching and were satisfied with it?

7.4k · October 22, 2014

I discovered however that automatic translation from German into English is not as awful as from German into Russian (obviously, English and German languages belong to one group). I read the whole text about Edward Grieg and could understand quite clearly how this Norwegian composer had been connected with Leipzig. I think that probably this way of translation could be an option. I will take into account your recommendations on smartphone apps (yes, I usually geocache with a smartphone when I'm in a big city). BTW, does anyone know good offline translation apps for Android? I mean, have you ever tried one for geocaching and were satisfied with it?

I was going to suggest translating into English instead of Russian, for this very reason. They generally use the same sentence structure.

October 22, 2014

you could also try to look for cachers in the area in the german team caching subforum ("zusammen cachen"). Maybe you find someone in/around Leipzig who can show you some caches and translate them?

6k · October 23, 2014

If it is a traditional why do you need to read the page. Except for the hint if necessary it usually isn't necessary.

6.8k · October 23, 2014

They generally use the same sentence structure.

Not really as German and English are concerned. Automatic translation typically yields the better result also for example from Italian to English than from Italian to say Romanian or Portuguese even though English is not a Romanic language.

6.8k · October 23, 2014

If it is a traditional why do you need to read the page. Except for the hint if necessary it usually isn't necessary.

In order to decide whether the cache is leading to a location that is interesting in its own right which plays a big role if not just finding a cache container is what you are about.

Moreover many cache descriptions provide information on where to search and what you need to care for within the description and not in the hint section.

October 23, 2014

BTW, does anyone know good offline translation apps for Android?

Good? Depends on what you expect. But there is at least an app that allows offline translation (android): google translate with offline language packages

I mean, have you ever tried one for geocaching and were satisfied with it?

Yes and no. As I'm not satisfied what is possible online, I'm not satisfied with what's possible offline. But better than nothing. Don't expect to understand more complicated cache listings that rely heavily on language. Best indeed is translating to English.

What I noticed: Croatian to English is way better than Croatian to German. Czech to English is way better than Czech to German. Slovak seems worse than Czech, maybe because it is SK -> CZ -> EN

I was going to suggest translating into English instead of Russian, for this very reason. They generally use the same sentence structure.

Not the sentence structure or that the languages are related.

For statistical machine translation applies: the more human-translated documents available in a given language, the more likely it is that the translation will be of good quality. This is why it performs best with target language English and source language being one of the big languages of the European Union/Official languages of the United Nations. Simply because there is a lot more input to improving translation from and to English than to/from any other language.

If a cache description is similar to a text already available in both languages, results will be very good. Otherwise no. Geocachers sometimes use words and phrases with changed or less common meanings. If there were plenty of bilingual cache descriptions you could improve results having a checkbox for 'type of text'='Geocaching'.

Their explanation (Google Translate): 'When Google Translate generates a translation, it looks for patterns in hundreds of millions of documents to help decide on the best translation for you. By detecting patterns in documents that have already been translated by human translators, Google Translate can make intelligent guesses as to what an appropriate translation should be. This process of seeking patterns in large amounts of text is called "statistical machine translation". Since the translations are generated by machines, not all translation will be perfect. The more human-translated documents that Google Translate can analyse in a specific language, the better the translation quality will be. This is why translation accuracy will sometimes vary across languages.'

For certain languages rule-based or hybrid machine translation would definitely give better results.

October 23, 2014

you could also try to look for cachers in the area in the german team caching subforum ("zusammen cachen"). Maybe you find someone in/around Leipzig who can show you some caches and translate them?

Ideally, I'd love to have a companion of course. However I will have rather short time for Leipzig, mostly working hours, and I have some places I wish to visit as a tourist. I think that all this would be incompatible with possibilities/interests of locals. I don't know the traditions in Leipzig/Germany though. Need to think about it.

If it is a traditional why do you need to read the page

Because I'm not into just getting more smileys - geocaching map is a kind of a tourist map for me. I used to visit interesting places and know more about them. With some popular attractions I probably can avoid geocaching reading pages and use some guides. But (luckily) there are numerous caches devoted to some objects that are not listed in any guides (or one needs to search thoroughly for any data about such places on the net and the result would be most probably in German too).

For instance, in Helsinki I was accommodated not in the downtown but in a district not described in any guides. By visiting caches around my place I knew many interesting facts about the area, typically known by locals. I'm happy that I managed to see this "hidden Helsinki" thanks to geocaching.

many cache descriptions provide information on where to search and what you need to care for within the description and not in the hint section

True.

As for hints, long ago I visited a cache in Kiev with description in English language. I believed that nothing could prevent me from finding this hide in a minute, both D and T were low, satellite signal was pretty good, but the problem was that I completely forgot how to translate the word in the hint. That word was "spruce"; will probably make other cachers laugh since it's so simple and I obviously knew it. However, sometimes you find yourself in a situation when you just feel some gap appeared in your memory for this particular term and you can do nothing. Sadly, I didn't have any vocabulary with me and there were no muggles around to ask a question (though such question would sound strange, I think). After all, I located the container after good half an hour of careful search of all trees in the area but I remember this experience.

October 23, 2014

Hmmm, this thread made me think of finding more translation software for portable Android devices and compare them "in field" for geocaching purposes. This would never be published anywhere at geocaching.com I guess but I think that I will be able to find a place where local cachers may get acquainted with the results. This could be helpful to compatriots because not many people speak/read English around here. Geocachers from other countries could probably find this research useful too.

14k · October 23, 2014

you could also try to look for cachers in the area in the german team caching subforum ("zusammen cachen"). Maybe you find someone in/around Leipzig who can show you some caches and translate them?

Ideally, I'd love to have a companion of course. However I will have rather short time for Leipzig, mostly working hours, and I have some places I wish to visit as a tourist. I think that all this would be incompatible with possibilities/interests of locals. I don't know the traditions in Leipzig/Germany though. Need to think about it.

This is purely anecdotal because I've only cached in Hamburg and the german speaking area of Switzerland (Zurich). Leipzig may be different but many of the cache listings in Hamburg were available in German and English. While looking at cache listings for Zurich I saw that there was an event the evening that I was there. Every will attend log was written in German so I posted a note, in English, asking if there would be any English speakers in attendance. I got several responses, including one from the CO and one from a couple that had lived in the U.S. for several years and spoke very good English, and spent a couple of hours caching with me. Perhaps posting a note on caches in your areas of interest might achieve the same results. It's possible that fewer people in Leipzig speak English than in other areas (I've certainly found this to be true in other countries) but just because all the cache listings you see are written in German doesn't mean that the COs or someone watching the cache doesn't speak English.

October 23, 2014

Yandex Translate (also statistical machine translation) has an app for android using online resources, but added offline functionality recently only for the iOS-app and some language-pairs (EN-RU, EN-FR, EN-DE, EN-IT, EN-ES). Slovak - English (online) seems to have a very poor corpus, for other languages it seems to depend on context.

So at the moment I see Google Translate for android and Yandex for iOS for offline purposes.

October 23, 2014

It's possible that fewer people in Leipzig speak English than in other areas.

That seems very likely to me because only starting from 1990 on (after the German reunification) it was possible to choose another first foreign language than the former compulsory Russian at school. So the majority of Germans younger than 30 years (should) speak some English and many Germans from the former GDR older than 40 years had at least 6 years Russian at school and no English.

What remains from school is another topic. I remember wondering how someone from former GDR and with compulsory Russian at school couldn't find the right answer to what the name of the first artificial Earth satellite Sputnik means when offerd 'companion' and three other, very improbable options at a quiz show.

6.8k · October 23, 2014

It's possible that fewer people in Leipzig speak English than in other areas (I've certainly found this to be true in other countries) but just because all the cache listings you see are written in German doesn't mean that the COs or someone watching the cache doesn't speak English.

Of course the fact that very few caches are available in English does not imply that all these cachers do not speak English. However, in the case of Leipzig AnnaMoritz's suggestion to watch out for old caches will not work (that works well for example in Vienna and my home town). I remember quite intense debates which involved some of the geocaching pioneers in the Leipzig area (such as lindolf and Portizer) about the usage of English on Groundspeak's site and in logs by cachers. I have been involved in some of this discussions personally on the side of those who favour the usage of English in geocaching as a way to contribute to its internationality.

I also remember to have met scientists from the former GDR that did not feel comfortable with English at all. Many of them could be asked however to help with reading and understanding Russian articles.

I also think that more international tourists visit Hamburg than Leipzig. Leipzig is not on my list of cities which I definitely want to visit if I do not have to go there for certain reasons.

Edited October 23, 2014 by cezanne

October 23, 2014

When I suggested looking for old caches for english descriptions in general 'Germany' I certainly hadn't Leipzig in mind, sorry.

6.8k · October 23, 2014

When I suggested looking for old caches for english descriptions in general 'Germany' I certainly hadn't Leipzig in mind, sorry.

I would not have had Leipzig in mind at that point of time, either.

14k · October 23, 2014

When I suggested looking for old caches for english descriptions in general 'Germany' I certainly hadn't Leipzig in mind, sorry.

I would not have had Leipzig in mind at that point of time, either.

I wasn't claiming to have done an exhaustive study on the usage of German in German speaking areas. It was just a suggestion that posting a note on a cache page *might* make it a little easier to find caches during a brief visit to a German speaking area.

7.5k · October 23, 2014

I will also visit Germany as a tourist and geocaching will be not the first purpose. I remember how fruitful was my geocaching in Ireland - I used caches to get to areas which I wouldn't even think of, many really nice places, each one with its own history, and I got much information from cache descriptions. With texts in German only I will most probably loose this part of the game because "automatic garbage" isn't so great for tourism.

Yes, sadly that's true, although a couple times it worked the other way for me: I followed the GPSr to GZ and it was immediately obvious why they brought me there even without understanding the language in the description.

I'm looking through the caches in central Leipzig now and have run into only two of them with English translation into and one where the the CO translated the hint only. I understood already that I have to get rid of all puzzles, multisteps and traditional caches with difficulty level of 3 and more.

I can't give up puzzles, so I solved as many as I could. Translation sometimes worked, but even more interesting were the puzzles that transcended language because they involved universal concepts and minimize the reliance on language. Although I'm sure looking at the difficulty is probably a good indicator, I didn't pay much attention to it because I figured the difficulty of another language would probably dwarf whatever difficulties the CO had in mind. Multis do introduce special challenges, and typically require carrying a translation, but it's so cool to complete one!

Caching in a language you don't understand is definitely a different experience, but I enjoyed it. But I'm glad I don't have to do it all the time...

6.8k · October 23, 2014

I wasn't claiming to have done an exhaustive study on the usage of German in German speaking areas. It was just a suggestion that posting a note on a cache page *might* make it a little easier to find caches during a brief visit to a German speaking area.

Neither myself nor anyone else said anything against your suggestion or any other statement you made in this thread. We just added some additional background information on the situation in Leipzig not everyone reading this thread might be aware of.

October 24, 2014

@Google Translation app for android

Only available with online connection (for example when using a local prepaid data card), I really like this feature: It reads handwriting. Might come in very handy also for geocaching. Think of information found at stages of a Multi-cache.

And stomachs the poor handwriting in the second example. Has to as you write with the tips of your fingers on a (small) touchscreen. Sometimes a virtual keyboard wouldn't help too much if you don't know how to match scribbled handwritten characters (or knotted lines :cool: ) to what you have to type into your keyboard, in particular with non-latin writing systems.

OCR from photos should do the same but unfortunately doesn't work well for me in this app, might work better for others.

14k · October 24, 2014

@Google Translation app for android

Only available with online connection (for example when using a local prepaid data card), I really like this feature: It reads handwriting. Might come in very handy also for geocaching. Think of information found at stages of a Multi-cache.

And stomachs the poor handwriting in the second example. Has to as you write with the tips of your fingers on a (small) touchscreen. Sometimes a virtual keyboard wouldn't help too much if you don't know how to match scribbled handwritten characters (or knotted lines ) to what you have to type into your keyboard, in particular with non-latin writing systems.

OCR from photos should do the same but unfortunately doesn't work well for me in this app, might work better for others.

There's another translation app that I've played with a bit called WorldLens. The uses the camera in the phone to read text, then uses augmented reality to display the translated text on the display. For example, you can "look" at menu that is all in French and on the screen of your phone it will appear as if the text is written in English. The basic app is free but "in app downloads" have to be purchased if you want to use more than two languages.

October 24, 2014

There's another translation app that I've played with a bit called WorldLens. The uses the camera in the phone to read text, then uses augmented reality to display the translated text on the display. For example, you can "look" at menu that is all in French and on the screen of your phone it will appear as if the text is written in English. The basic app is free but "in app downloads" have to be purchased if you want to use more than two languages.

Sounds interesting. Might help to prevent you from eating unpleasant things abroad. I suppose it is optimized to what you usually see on signs and to printed words.

Well, that's really funny. It shows 'scolastic much' when looking at my 'Schokomilch' (chocolate milk). For 'Rauch' it changes between 'oil cloth' 'change' and the correct 'smoke'. But knows that 'Wichtiger Hinweis' is 'Important tip'.

3.7k · October 24, 2014

The most important thing is, as usual, to remember you're having fun even if you can't find the cache. I found the biggest "translation" I needed wasn't on the web: it was the local style of hiding where everyone local knows to look there, while I, as a tourist, didn't even realize "there" was there, and probably would have been hesitant to look there even if I had known. (We were just talking about LPCs in another thread; those would be a good example.) That problem comes up even when I'm caching in the United States.

Yeah...I've never cached in another country, but when I was down in Sarasota this past summer I ran across a number of cache pages that made reference to a hide being "Florida style". It took a while, but I eventually figured out that it meant hidden in 'leaf-like' parts of the trunk of a palm tree.

It might be useful to know some key words to look for in the description...like whatever the words are for the various types of containers, etc.

14k · October 24, 2014

The most important thing is, as usual, to remember you're having fun even if you can't find the cache. I found the biggest "translation" I needed wasn't on the web: it was the local style of hiding where everyone local knows to look there, while I, as a tourist, didn't even realize "there" was there, and probably would have been hesitant to look there even if I had known. (We were just talking about LPCs in another thread; those would be a good example.) That problem comes up even when I'm caching in the United States.

Yeah...I've never cached in another country, but when I was down in Sarasota this past summer I ran across a number of cache pages that made reference to a hide being "Florida style". It took a while, but I eventually figured out that it meant hidden in 'leaf-like' parts of the trunk of a palm tree.

It's even worse when the "style" described refers to some local geocacher. If I'm not from the area I not going to know what "BillyBobNosePicker Style" is, and I'm not sure that I'd want to. I really haven't found there to be a huge difference in hiding styles in the 20 countries in which I've found a cache. It's usually more dependent upon the environment (urban vs. rural).

It might be useful to know some key words to look for in the description...like whatever the words are for the various types of containers, etc.

It's also useful to be able to learn a few key words one can use in the log. There used to be a thread here where translations of "Thanks for the cache" were posted. Translations of "the log is full" or "It wasn't in the obvious hiding spot. I put a piece of paper in a plastic baggie for others to find. TFTC" could be useful.

7.5k · October 24, 2014

It's even worse when the "style" described refers to some local geocacher. If I'm not from the area I not going to know what "BillyBobNosePicker Style" is, and I'm not sure that I'd want to.

I hear you. And it gets even worse. Around here, we have a standard hint "bassocantor style", a reference to a local geocacher, but the joke is that he only hid a couple caches early in his career in that style, and now there are far more in that style by other COs that wanted to use the hint. So even if you'd found a bunch of bassocantor's hides, you'd still have no clue what "bassocantor style" meant.

I really haven't found there to be a huge difference in hiding styles in the 20 countries in which I've found a cache. It's usually more dependent upon the environment (urban vs. rural).

The biggest thing I noticed was that in the US, old things are rare, so COs tend to avoid putting them at risk by hiding a cache in them. In Europe, all kinds of things are old, so COs don't seem to hesitate to hide a cache in a 400 year old wall behind a loose brick.

I admit, the difference between urban and rural is much bigger, but I cache a lot in both environments, so I'm used to those differences.

October 25, 2014

Back to the topic.

I installed Google Translate with offline dictionaries so the problem is half-solved. It's a bit awkward because I have to copy-paste text all the time and if it's large I also have to scroll up/down. It works at home but I'm not sure it would be my favourite game when it's raining outdoors with +7 centigrade. Will try.

As for what NYPaddleCacher said earlier (pardon me, I'll partially use your text to save time), while looking at cache listings for Berlin I saw that there was an event the evening that I was there. Every will attend log was written in German. I posted a note, in English, saying that I will probably attend (I've got some work in Berlin and the event is pretty far from where I'll be staying). I didn't ask if there would be any English speakers in attendance however. Hopefully there will be at least some of them. However, I don't think I will write notes in traditional cache logs just to find out if there are any people who talk English, in Berlin or Leipzig. I'm not sure about what exactly caches I will visit. And of course I don't want to convert a small technical issue into anything bigger.

November 8, 2014

My travel in Germany ended and I can share some thoughts on how I solved the problem.

1. The vast majority of listings/hints was in German language only.

2. People in the Eastern part of the country usually don't speak English at all or speak very little of it. Geocachers aren't any exclusion (I took part in a local event).

3. Google Translate (offline version) on my smartphone worked well for descriptions if translation was done from German into English (through the clipboard).

4. It was not that good for recent logs obviously because cachers used more "free" language and terms that were specific to geocaching.

5. It was even worse with hints which were often (and understandable) not much precise.

Single-language listings and hints

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