+JL_HSTRE Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Besides Riffster's background on his experiences with FL land managers (thanks!), I am quite surprised to learn that all PA state parks are free. Every other state I had heard of charges admission for at least some if not all of their state parks. I hope folks in PA are aware that organizing a CITO will let them avoid the fee. It seems if that fact it well known then a shortage of PA SP caches is the result of too many lazy cachers. In my experience (albiet less than some of the folks posting here) a CITO event will go a long way to getting in the good graces of hesitant land managers. We need more CITOs! Maybe there should be several International CITO Days throughout the year instead of just one near Earth Day? Quote
+cerberus1 Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 I hope folks in PA are aware that organizing a CITO will let them avoid the fee. It seems if that fact it well known then a shortage of PA SP caches is the result of too many lazy cachers. Really? Sorry, but it's not as simple as that. Just so you're aware, it's up to each park manager whether they'll allow another form of "payment" (CITO, trail maintenance, etc.). I've personally asked three and all still required the fee. Each stated, "they have their own maintenance crews for that". Lazy cachers isn't the reason. Quote
+cerberus1 Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 For those playing along, the "PNDI Database" stands for Pennsylvania Natural Diversity Inventory. It's a GIS database that records the locations of rare plants, endangered species, archaelogical ruins, etc. All proposed cache placements must be checked in the PNDI database prior to a permit being issued. Did you know that Moraine State Park in Western Pennsylvania has a rare patch of untouched prairie grasses, as well as a breed of rattlesnake found nowhere else in the State? You'd find that out if you worked with the park rangers to place a cache there. When I proposed a cache placement in a verdant green forest, the Park Naturalist at Raccoon Creek State Park told me that the PNDI recorded rare ferns in that area. No wonder I liked it so much! Well, we didn't want geocachers trampling down the rare ferns, so the Naturalist pointed me towards a different location that was even better. The PNDI search is a valuable tool, and it's not something written on the back of an envelope. Okay, that was pretty cool. I didn't realize regular folks could play on the PNDI site. I thought it was for Fish/Game Commission and DCNR. - Helpful (if interested in placement). Looks much better on your end if you go to the Station (kinda) already knowing what areas you're looking for. We just moved a while ago and now two miles from one of my favorite State parks, but between their own geo tours and the Ranger Rick series, all the good spots are taken. - But there's four more around us too. We'll have to look further into this in the Spring. Our snow finally melted in this heat wave the last two days. Quote
+NeverSummer Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Ah that is interesting. So the fee really was put in place so they could keep allowing geocaching. With the $25 dollars compensation for the Rangers half-hour to hour of work. Thank you for the history lesson. :laughing: :laughing: Bahahahaaha! Yeah, $25 for creating, filling out, filing, maintaining a database, meeting with interested associations or individuals, coordinating with other managers and their superiors if questions or concerns come up, adding routine checks to their patrols. Half-hour to an hour. Right. Therein is another "lazy government" stereotype I don't care much for. Versus putting in 2 hours for a CITO with a dozen or so other geocachers once a year, voting for folks who would replace previous budgets to land agencies, or donating money to "Friends of X Park", or just paying the $25. At least one can actually place a cache there, thanks to the efforts of other advocates who put in their time to get a place to stay open to geocaching or reopen for geocaching. Sorry...burr in my boot today. Wow you put a whole lot more meaning in that than was intended. I was just equating it to a salary. Either at $25 - 50 an hour. I never said anything about lazy government. Some one entering the cache in the database, a preliminary visit, and handling calls if there are any. Also you don't charge the entire cost of "developement" of an excel spreadsheet (database really?)to only one customer. Please, do explain what you meant with $25-$50/hour and salary. Also, please let me know what kind of first-hand experience you have being on the side of the desk that has to create and maintain any type of policy that might relate to something like geocaching. Then, hopefully I can understand where you are trying to come from with statements like yours. It's more than alien55's assertion of "the back of an envelope" to track, document, maintain, and develop processes for a special use permit. So, to me, $25 isn't that much to ask when I'm sitting on my side of the desk. Now, if I were on the geocacher side of the desk, I'd think it was a tad high. But, if I really wanted to have a cache there, I'd be glad to follow whatever policy is in place. It is a game, after all...and a game that they don't have to let us play on their land. Also if you need to post a sorry at the end of a comment then it dosent need written. Not true. I suppose you don't really understand why I said that either. Comments like yours are a burr in my boot. Thus my pointed reply. Quote
+giddeanx Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Ah that is interesting. So the fee really was put in place so they could keep allowing geocaching. With the $25 dollars compensation for the Rangers half-hour to hour of work. Thank you for the history lesson. :laughing: :laughing: Bahahahaaha! Yeah, $25 for creating, filling out, filing, maintaining a database, meeting with interested associations or individuals, coordinating with other managers and their superiors if questions or concerns come up, adding routine checks to their patrols. Half-hour to an hour. Right. Therein is another "lazy government" stereotype I don't care much for. Versus putting in 2 hours for a CITO with a dozen or so other geocachers once a year, voting for folks who would replace previous budgets to land agencies, or donating money to "Friends of X Park", or just paying the $25. At least one can actually place a cache there, thanks to the efforts of other advocates who put in their time to get a place to stay open to geocaching or reopen for geocaching. Sorry...burr in my boot today. Wow you put a whole lot more meaning in that than was intended. I was just equating it to a salary. Either at $25 - 50 an hour. I never said anything about lazy government. Some one entering the cache in the database, a preliminary visit, and handling calls if there are any. Also you don't charge the entire cost of "developement" of an excel spreadsheet (database really?)to only one customer. Please, do explain what you meant with $25-$50/hour and salary. Also, please let me know what kind of first-hand experience you have being on the side of the desk that has to create and maintain any type of policy that might relate to something like geocaching. Then, hopefully I can understand where you are trying to come from with statements like yours. It's more than alien55's assertion of "the back of an envelope" to track, document, maintain, and develop processes for a special use permit. So, to me, $25 isn't that much to ask when I'm sitting on my side of the desk. Now, if I were on the geocacher side of the desk, I'd think it was a tad high. But, if I really wanted to have a cache there, I'd be glad to follow whatever policy is in place. It is a game, after all...and a game that they don't have to let us play on their land. Also if you need to post a sorry at the end of a comment then it dosent need written. Not true. I suppose you don't really understand why I said that either. Comments like yours are a burr in my boot. Thus my pointed reply. People, no matter what they do, get compensated for the work that they do. I was estimating the salary of a park ranger to be around $25-50 dollars an hour. That maybe high but there are other factors and people involved. If, as Keystone indicated, this is a way to defer the cost of the Ranger's salary and other factors $25 seems reasonable. I wasn't aware I needed some credentials to make an opinion. Especially one that seems to agree with yours. I think you were reading sarcasm where there was none. Quote
+alien55 Posted November 17, 2013 Author Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) Oops! Hit reply by mistake. Edited November 17, 2013 by alien55 Quote
+cheech gang Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 (edited) I am quite surprised to learn that all PA state parks are free. Every other state I had heard of charges admission for at least some if not all of their state parks. Ohio remains one of the few states in the country that does not charge a general admission or parking fee at its 74 state parks. Day use facilities, including trails, beaches, picnic areas, boating and fishing facilities are free of charge. There is a fee for use of overnight facilities, reserving shelter houses, equipment rental, golf, and some facility tours. Some parks require a visitor pass and a small fee for non-registered campers at the campgrounds. Also, no fee for geocache placement. Edited November 17, 2013 by cheech gang Quote
+briansnat Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 ...all ancillary activities in State Parks had to be self-sustaining, through permits, use fees or otherwise. Unless I've completely blown the definition of "ancillary", the term didn't apply until after they decided to create a permit system. If they had accepted, as Seminole County Parks & Recreation did, that geocaching was a benign activity, and that the existing guidelines would cover whatever concerns they might have, then geocaching would not be an ancillary activity. By creating the permit process, they created the need for the fee. Or did I flub it? Geocache hiders provide additional recreational opportunities for park users at little or no expense to the park management. You'd think that would be a win/win. Of course once the park management decides they need to become intricately involved in the cache hiding process you can toss "little or no expense out the window". They create a bureaucratic process, then uh oh it's costing us money so let's charge for it. I'm all for land managers protecting sensitive areas and species, but all it would take would be for someone to import waypoints periodically into their GIS system and identify the few offending caches and have them archived. That would probably take all of 15 minutes. The idea that every cache placement needs to be evaluated beforehand is absurd. And sometimes the so-called "sensitive areas" on GIS are equally absurd. I tried to hide a cache in a NY state park next to a fire tower. You have a service road, fire tower, fire tower tender's shack, a picnic table, a large Smoky Bear sign, and on a nice day, probably a hundred plus hikers visiting the site. I was told no go due to endangered species in the area. Road, man made structures, extremely heavy human use, yet if I included an ammo box to the mix which might be found 5 time a year that would become a threat to the species? (Rattlesnakes BTW). Quote
Clan Riffster Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 They create a bureaucratic process, then uh oh it's costing us money so let's charge for it. That's always been my understanding of "ancillary". I'm all for land managers protecting sensitive areas and species, but all it would take would be for someone to import waypoints periodically into their GIS system and identify the few offending caches and have them archived. That would probably take all of 15 minutes. The idea that every cache placement needs to be evaluated beforehand is absurd. As the person who issues permits for the Little Big Econ State Forest, and the Charles H Bronson State Forest, I took a slightly different route, which has the same end result. The dude who runs the GIS database for these forests will let me poke around, under his supervision, however, I do not have unrestricted access. So, I asked for polygons of all the areas they consider sensitive, (mostly Indian mounds with a few rare plants tossed in for good measure), and I imported these into my Google Earth. When I get a permit request, all I need do is verify that it's not within one of these verboten areas. As the Florida Forestry Service adds new protected areas, they let me know. So far, I haven't had to deal with a new area containing an active cache. If that day comes, I'll likely ask the owner to move the cache. On a somewhat related note, when I was laying out my newest night cache Wherigo, I discovered what may end up becoming a site of historical significance, that the FFS didn't know about. Once the folks who determine such things make their ruling, I may have to archive it. Fingers crossed! Quote
+NeverSummer Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Ah that is interesting. So the fee really was put in place so they could keep allowing geocaching. With the $25 dollars compensation for the Rangers half-hour to hour of work. Thank you for the history lesson. :laughing: :laughing: Bahahahaaha! Yeah, $25 for creating, filling out, filing, maintaining a database, meeting with interested associations or individuals, coordinating with other managers and their superiors if questions or concerns come up, adding routine checks to their patrols. Half-hour to an hour. Right. Therein is another "lazy government" stereotype I don't care much for. Versus putting in 2 hours for a CITO with a dozen or so other geocachers once a year, voting for folks who would replace previous budgets to land agencies, or donating money to "Friends of X Park", or just paying the $25. At least one can actually place a cache there, thanks to the efforts of other advocates who put in their time to get a place to stay open to geocaching or reopen for geocaching. Sorry...burr in my boot today. Wow you put a whole lot more meaning in that than was intended. I was just equating it to a salary. Either at $25 - 50 an hour. I never said anything about lazy government. Some one entering the cache in the database, a preliminary visit, and handling calls if there are any. Also you don't charge the entire cost of "developement" of an excel spreadsheet (database really?)to only one customer. Please, do explain what you meant with $25-$50/hour and salary. Also, please let me know what kind of first-hand experience you have being on the side of the desk that has to create and maintain any type of policy that might relate to something like geocaching. Then, hopefully I can understand where you are trying to come from with statements like yours. It's more than alien55's assertion of "the back of an envelope" to track, document, maintain, and develop processes for a special use permit. So, to me, $25 isn't that much to ask when I'm sitting on my side of the desk. Now, if I were on the geocacher side of the desk, I'd think it was a tad high. But, if I really wanted to have a cache there, I'd be glad to follow whatever policy is in place. It is a game, after all...and a game that they don't have to let us play on their land. Also if you need to post a sorry at the end of a comment then it dosent need written. Not true. I suppose you don't really understand why I said that either. Comments like yours are a burr in my boot. Thus my pointed reply. People, no matter what they do, get compensated for the work that they do. I was estimating the salary of a park ranger to be around $25-50 dollars an hour. That maybe high but there are other factors and people involved. If, as Keystone indicated, this is a way to defer the cost of the Ranger's salary and other factors $25 seems reasonable. I wasn't aware I needed some credentials to make an opinion. Especially one that seems to agree with yours. I think you were reading sarcasm where there was none. Unfortunately I misread you. But to help with context, try more like $12-17/hour. And that generally won't include benefits, since many are term appointments or temporary/seasonal. Sorry that it seems I overreacted. The extra time it takes to work on external projects is thankfully supplemented by fee payments in some cases. Quote
+FluffyRAM Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 If you want to place a cache in a Pennsylvania state park, you need a permit and there is a $25 fee. The permit is good for three years, after which the cache has to be re-approved and another fee paid. Surprise, surprise - there aren't that many caches in PA state parks. About a year ago, a temporary ban was put on placing caches in my county parks while those in power formulated a geocaching policy. I've just found out (yes, more than a year later) that they expect to have a permit process in place in the New Year and, of course, a fee will be charged. I'm interested in hearing what the deal is for placing caches in parks around the country - state and local. Are permits required? Are fees required? Is bureaucracy and cost killing our pastime in parks in some areas? I live in Georgia. I am not an authority on cache placement in our state parks but can share the following: * Our parks allow and encourage Geocaching. * GA State Parks actually have their own caches which form the GA State Parks Geocaching Challenge (pick up a leaflet, each cache has a unique stamp, stamp your leaflet, achieve coins and reveal bonus caches) * Public cache placement also allowed (permission required, ranger approving GZ) * $5/vehicle/day admission or purchase an annual "friends of the state parks" pass (which are available on free loan from the library!) * I'm pretty sure no fee is charged. I don't know about permits. * We have some great caches in our State Parks. * Their challenge program was so successful they launched a second programme for state historic sites and historic buildings! Quote
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