Cache Type Correct?

[+Bamilbis]

Is this the proper cache type?

 

GC2MMDK

 

I launched off to be FTF and found the cache. It's listed as a traditional cache, but when I found it the cache was locked. I looked back at the description and sure enough it says you have to find a key 'in the immediate vicinity'. I looked and no joy on the key. But is it okay to lock a traditional and make people go find a key? Wouldn't that be a multi or a mystery type cache?

 

What do ya all think?

[Pup Patrol]

Reads like a "?" cache to me.

 

But what do I know?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/cache_types.aspx

 

Traditional Cache

 

This is the original geocache type consisting of, at minimum, a container and a log book or logsheet. Larger containers generally include items for trade. “Nano” or “micro” caches are tiny containers that only hold a logsheet. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page provide the geocache’s exact location.

 

? Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The "catch-all" of cache types, this form of geocache may involve complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. Mystery/Puzzle Caches often become the staging ground for new and unique geocaches that do not fit in another category.

 

 

 

B.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Pup Patrol

[+St.Matthew]

It should be a blue squiggly.

[+SwineFlew]

Puzzle type...

 

Here is one in Coos Bay thats like what the OP said and its listed as a puzzle type.

 

http://coord.info/GC31AVQ

[+Touchstone]

Or you just need the right tool:

 

 

[+JL_HSTRE]

IMO should be a Mystery cache.

 

This cache also go published as a Traditional rather than a Mystery, which doesn't seem right to me - http://coord.info/GC38PNR

 

I recall hearing at some point that a Traditional cache should be findable and the log retrievable with no information except the GPS coordinates. If you need to read the cache page to find out how to open the container, it should NOT be a Traditional. I'm not sure if the Guidelines explicitly support this view (now or ever), but I agree with the philosophy.

[+lamoracke]

just did a cache like this in my area, that had a key needed to get into it. Its listed as a traditional, course that is not evidence one way or another. We could not get find the key so we found a metal bar thingy, took it out and then undid the hinges to get it open.

 

There are many traditional caches that are locked and the hint is the password and most of those are listed as traditional, though have seen some as mystery and even some as letterbox.

 

Either way, personally am not sure what the answer is. If the key is easily accessible or the lock combo is readily available on the cache page, I think a traditional might be fine. I mean, some traditionals require water to get the container out, or a fishing line to get it out of the water, why are those different than keys?

Edited February 22, 2012 by lamoracke

[+KI4HLW]

After seeing all the visits on my cache I figured it had to have been posted somewhere so let me see if I can shed some light.

 

This cache was actually a year in the making and great care was made to properly classify it, I can tell you this cache was discussed at great length with one reviewer and when ready was activated by another reviewer. My goal was to place a large cache with a high difficulty level in the middle of a high traffic area, the kind of area that general consensuses is it would only support a micro. I couldn't hide a huge container, so I instead made it obvious, then hid the key.

 

As for the argument it could be a multi the key is at the same coordinates as the box, yes it is that close. You don't need to follow any instructions to retrieve it, only to look till you find it.

 

As for a mystery that would not count as there is no "mystery" to solve, and the cache is at the listed coordinates, so unless you consider finding an object a mystery... but then NO cache would be traditional. I know there is no "previous precedent" in cache placement, but I would point you towards the numerous "Bug Hotels" that have a combo lock with the combo on the cache page.

 

I recall hearing at some point that a Traditional cache should be findable and the log retrievable with no information except the GPS coordinates. If you need to read the cache page to find out how to open the container, it should NOT be a Traditional. I'm not sure if the Guidelines explicitly support this view (now or ever), but I agree with the philosophy.

 

While that sounds like a very simplified way to explain it to someone just starting out it has no basis in the rules. By this definition any cache that requires special equipment such as scuba gear, a boat, climbing gear, or a blacklight... or is only available during certain hours, times of year, etc. is not a traditional because that info is all passed through the cache page. But then unless you need to be told a lock needs a key you could also easily solve the cache without reading the description.

 

I am not trying to sneak something through the rules, to the contrary this cache was discussed with the reviewers at great length and every detail was given to insure it was properly classified. It was reviewed much more heavily then most caches before it was posted.

Edited February 22, 2012 by KI4HLW

[+Bamilbis]

Well okay. I guess I'll just have to go back out when the sun is up. The cache is bolted onto a wooden fence surrounding a mobile electrical trailer that powers some sort of water treatment. I sure hope I don't have to jump a locked fence to find the key, cause that is not going to happen.

 

Still seems odd to find the cache on a traditional but be unable to log it. Oh well, TPTB approved it so I guess it is what it is.

Let ya all know hat happens tomorrow...

 

 

Edit for typo

Edited February 22, 2012 by GeotaggedBloger

[+jellis]

We have one like that in our area. Not as complex but you still need to find the key to open it. They too listed it as a traditional. Traditionals are suppose to be just a straight forward go to location, find cache, sign log, replace and move on. Anything beyond that is either an ALR or a Puzzle. But the reviewers ignored the one in our area so the owner doesn't care if it is frustrating others because they didn't realize there was more to it then just finding the container.

 

And yes I sent messages to both of our reviewers.

Edited February 22, 2012 by jellis

[+KI4HLW]

Well okay. I guess I'll just have to go back out when the sun is up. The cache is bolted onto a wooden fence surrounding a mobile electrical trailer that powers some sort of water treatment. I sure hope I don't have to jump a locked fence to find the key, cause that is not going to happen.

 

I got you email and though I hope it goes without saying I edited the cache page to state NOT to jump the fence.

From the beginning I posted it as a members only to hopefully weed out inexperienced cachers who may try and jump it or feel the need to destroy something. I posted with full permission of the owner, but if something gets damaged I will remove it.

[+DanOCan]

I have seen many of these "figuring out how to get the log is the whole point" type of caches and many have been listed as Traditionals. I figure as long as everything you need is at the posted coordinates and the Difficulty is rated properly I don't see it as a problem.

[Clan Riffster]

Good post. I can see Josh's point, as well as Dan's.

I suppose, for me, the bottom line would be the Reviewer's opinion.

K-Man has that covered, so all is well.

[+Bamilbis]

Ran into K-Man today while I went back to look for the key.

 

I think his post makes the point. I've changed my mind on this one. I started out thinking it should be a mystery or multi, but now agree with the type listed. K-Man told me one of the questions that kept coming up was how to size the cache. Is it a Regular because the cache is that size or a micro because the key is what you must find to find the cache?

 

I guess it just shows how diverse things can get when people use a lot of creativity when making a cache. All and all I think K-Man and the reviewer nailed it and listed it the way it should be.

[+JL_HSTRE]

As for a mystery that would not count as there is no "mystery" to solve, and the cache is at the listed coordinates, so unless you consider finding an object a mystery... but then NO cache would be traditional. I know there is no "previous precedent" in cache placement, but I would point you towards the numerous "Bug Hotels" that have a combo lock with the combo on the cache page.

 

Keep in mind Mystery caches don't necessarily require a "puzzle"; they are the catch-all cache type for anything that doesn't properly fit another category.

 

You may have a good point about locked TB hotels.

 

I recall hearing at some point that a Traditional cache should be findable and the log retrievable with no information except the GPS coordinates. If you need to read the cache page to find out how to open the container, it should NOT be a Traditional. I'm not sure if the Guidelines explicitly support this view (now or ever), but I agree with the philosophy.

 

While that sounds like a very simplified way to explain it to someone just starting out it has no basis in the rules. By this definition any cache that requires special equipment such as scuba gear, a boat, climbing gear, or a blacklight... or is only available during certain hours, times of year, etc. is not a traditional because that info is all passed through the cache page. But then unless you need to be told a lock needs a key you could also easily solve the cache without reading the description.

 

If you need a boat, scuba gear, climbing gear, etc. you could figure that out the hard way with the coords - just looking at a map navigating to it, or when you encounter an obstacle. Likewise, season closings or limited hours of access are normally posted so while you might find out the hard way that you've arrived at the wrong time, you will still figure out what you need without the cache page.

 

I've only seen 2 caches with a UV attribute that that were Traditionals: the Special Ops cache I linked to above, and a cache that was part of a series with a bonus cache. You didn't need the UV light to find the Traditional, but you did need it to get the coords for the bonus which was of course a Mystery.

 

With a cache that has a combo or needs a key, without reading the cache page there is no way to know where the combo/key are located or how you get them. You have no reason to assume the key is at the same coordinates as the container.

 

It's good this was extensively discussed with a Reviewer. I guess I will have to agree to disagree with the Guidelines on this.

[+KI4HLW]

If you need a boat, scuba gear, climbing gear, etc. you could figure that out the hard way with the coords - just looking at a map navigating to it, or when you encounter an obstacle.

 

Not really, say I somehow got permission to put a cache at the base of the pier of a bridge over a river, now the cache icon looks from a 2D map to be on the bridge. So you run out to the cache all ready to grab it and ignoring the cache page, you park illegally on the bridge and risk moving traffic to look. Never finding it you figure it is under the bridge and get a boat, now you spend more time looking under the bridge with no luck. This is a perfect text book traditional that while some cacher may eventually try diving for it, it would be almost impossible to find without reading the cache page.

 

Likewise, season closings or limited hours of access are normally posted so while you might find out the hard way that you've arrived at the wrong time, you will still figure out what you need without the cache page.

 

But then I could just say:

 

"Likewise, it is common knowledge that a lock needs a key so while you might find out the hard way that you've arrived that it requires you to find the key, you will still figure out what you need without the cache page."

 

I don't understand how finding a key is such a problem, but if I said your looking for a micro that is 4 times smaller then the key everyone would be happy. I rated it as a 3.5, and since raised it to a 4.5, some caches are hard, some you may never find no matter how much you look.

 

*Please don't take anything I say personal, I am simply debating WHAT definition constitutes a regular cache.

Edited February 23, 2012 by KI4HLW