Cache feedback

[alesharks]

Hi there,

 

I was reading the forums, and there's a lot of rage toward caches that have a perceived agenda. I had an idea for a unique cache that I suppose some could see as 'agenda-ish', so I wanted some feedback before I start making it. The last thing I want to do is piss a bunch of people off.

 

There is a monument in my city that pays tribute to an old aboriginal burial ground. I wanted to store a cache there with tobacco in the bottom of it, which people could, should they choose, sprinkle a pinch of that tobacco on the land to make an offering to the creator/mother earth. I meant this cache to introduce people to an indigenous practice, in hopes that they would see this structure that they probably drive past every day in a new way.

 

The structure itself is a medicine wheel that is unfinished on one side. It's unfinished, because a decrepit power plant sits atop of a quarter of the grounds. The artist was making a statement about how healing is incomplete on that land.

 

My favourite caches so far have been the ones that tell me about the landmark/area I'm travelling to. I suppose that I could just leave out the story of the monument and area on my listing to avoid anyone calling it political, but I feel that it's an important local historical site, and not telling its story would defeat the whole purpose of the cache.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks for reading!

 

PS I know I'm pretty new. I was planning on setting this after I have a few more finds under my belt.

[AZcachemeister]

I wouldn't have a problem with what you propose, but there ARE those who could perceive this as a quasi-religious practice and have issues with it.

[AZcachemeister]

...and after further consideration...you could leave the tobacco-sprinkling part off the cache page, and just have some instructions/materials inside the cache. If people want to participate they can, and nobody has to get upset about what is on the cache page.

[+5g]

I think bringing people there would be enough, especially if there is already a plaque or something in place describing the monument. However, this is entirely up to your local reviewer.

[+Chokecherry]

I went to a cache at a giant medicine wheel. In and of itself it was interesting but I would definitely leave out the tobacco part for a couple reasons. 1. Tobacco in a cache is just never a good idea... found to soggy caches with little baggies of TOP left behind. Ick.

 

2. Having anyone without any true appreciation come in and sprinkle tobacco around would be akin to me walking into a catholic church and spritzing myself with some holy and lighting a candle. I may understand the general idea of why people do it but I'd just be going through some arbitrary motions without it having any meaning to me. This would likely be somewhat insulting to Catholics who hold some meaning to these actions whereas I'd just be playing a game with it. It's insulting.

[+CanDMan47]

I am only speaking on my own behalf, not Groundspeak or any other cacher. I don't think there is a lot of rage towards agendas on the forum as you say, but discussions of what is and isn't an agenda. Agendas of any type are prohibited by Groundspeak on the cache page. I do think if you suggest people sprinkle tobacco as an offering, you are promoting an agenda. Also, I think tobacco in a cache is a bad idea because 1.)minors find caches and 2.)animals find caches. But if you do still put the tobacco in the cache, you can mark it as "Not A Trade Item" and put a note with it for its purpose. Agendas in the cache container are allowed, just not on the website cache page.

 

edit: add what Chokecherry said about reasons tobacco is a bad idea.

 

edit again: as always, when in doubt about agendas, or any other issues, your reviewer has the best answer.

Edited September 1, 2011 by CanDMan47

[+wildchld97]

...and after further consideration...you could leave the tobacco-sprinkling part off the cache page, and just have some instructions/materials inside the cache. If people want to participate they can, and nobody has to get upset about what is on the cache page.

 

That's a good idea in theory, but the fact remains that tobacco is not allowed in a cache and I'm positive someone would end up reporting it.

 

As for the religious aspect, that could get it kicked out during the review process if it's mentioned on the cache page.

[+Mom-n-Andy]

Sounds like what you describe could make a good Challenge, sans the tobacco.

[+AmphibianTrackers]

It sounds like a very thought provoking location and with permission, would make a great cache location. I think it would be wise to leave the religious responses to the location to individual cachers.

[alesharks]

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

I didn't think that people would partake in the tobacco sprinkling unless they felt connected to the idea, which is why I suggested it as an optional activity. I know that sometimes I have gone to an indigenous site and haven't had tobacco with me, and so I've missed out on offering. I thought having a water-tight package of tob in the cache would provide that option to interested parties. Tobacco sprinkling isn't necessarily a religious response (I don't have a drop of native blood in me) but one of cultural respect.

 

Maybe I'll just stick a BYOT reminder on the page.

[+Chokecherry]

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

I didn't think that people would partake in the tobacco sprinkling unless they felt connected to the idea, which is why I suggested it as an optional activity. I know that sometimes I have gone to an indigenous site and haven't had tobacco with me, and so I've missed out on offering. I thought having a water-tight package of tob in the cache would provide that option to interested parties. Tobacco sprinkling isn't necessarily a religious response (I don't have a drop of native blood in me) but one of cultural respect.

 

Maybe I'll just stick a BYOT reminder on the page.

 

It's very disrespectful to the culture (which is heavily intertwined with their spiritual) beliefs to take an activity which is meant for reverence and trivialize it like trying to explain it on a cache page or in a cache and leave the materials to go through the motions. Sprinkling tobacco isn't as simple as just taking some tobacco someone left behind. It is taking something of value to the individual to leave in reverence and respect to the specific area you are in typically when you are removing something from it. I've spent many years living and working around first nations people. It seems simple on the surface but there is quite a bit of meaning behind the tobacco offering. Even more so if you're trading tobacco for knowledge from an elder (done that many times as well). This action has meaning to me. Joe Average finding the cache is not going to find that deep meaning in this action. I'm insulted by the idea that someone would just do this willy nilly as some way to "experience" the culture because you're not experiencing the culture. It's like leaving communion wafers in a cache and tell people they're experiencing the Eucharist. Without the meaning I'm just eating some stale bread. And it's insulting.

[AZcachemeister]

And it's insulting.

 

WHOA! Slow down!

I have never heard of this practice, but now I am intrigued. I see it as a chance to learn something about native culture. I agree that probably 98% of Native American culture has been horrifically trivialized, but how can we begin to understand aspects of it we have never heard of?

 

I suppose you won't be interested in attending my potlatch event, either?

[alesharks]

Thanks for the input everyone!

 

I didn't think that people would partake in the tobacco sprinkling unless they felt connected to the idea, which is why I suggested it as an optional activity. I know that sometimes I have gone to an indigenous site and haven't had tobacco with me, and so I've missed out on offering. I thought having a water-tight package of tob in the cache would provide that option to interested parties. Tobacco sprinkling isn't necessarily a religious response (I don't have a drop of native blood in me) but one of cultural respect.

 

Maybe I'll just stick a BYOT reminder on the page.

 

It's very disrespectful to the culture (which is heavily intertwined with their spiritual) beliefs to take an activity which is meant for reverence and trivialize it like trying to explain it on a cache page or in a cache and leave the materials to go through the motions. Sprinkling tobacco isn't as simple as just taking some tobacco someone left behind. It is taking something of value to the individual to leave in reverence and respect to the specific area you are in typically when you are removing something from it. I've spent many years living and working around first nations people. It seems simple on the surface but there is quite a bit of meaning behind the tobacco offering. Even more so if you're trading tobacco for knowledge from an elder (done that many times as well). This action has meaning to me. Joe Average finding the cache is not going to find that deep meaning in this action. I'm insulted by the idea that someone would just do this willy nilly as some way to "experience" the culture because you're not experiencing the culture. It's like leaving communion wafers in a cache and tell people they're experiencing the Eucharist. Without the meaning I'm just eating some stale bread. And it's insulting.

 

Hi there,

 

I have also presented protocol to elders and have partaken in rituals such as the sweat and pipe ceremonies. I was invited to partake in a cree sundance, but unfortunately I was out of town. I'm certainly not ignorant or disrespectful when it comes to indigenous culture. I take as many moments as I can to learn from people immersed in the culture. In fact, I've made indigenous wisdom/pedagogy a focus of my Education degree.

 

I remember a respected cree professor handing me tobacco to sprinkle at a place before I had a clear idea of the spiritual significance of the practice, and he knew about my ignorance. He and the elder with our group explained what it meant, and I was encouraged to partake if I so chose. Therefore, I obviously don't share your outrage about the 'unwashed masses' partaking in such a practice. I know the way I learned, and it was obviously different from the way you learned. Everybody has a different idea of what is the right way to introduce indigenous cultural practices, and such disagreements are prevalent all over the place- even within bands. There is no standard. My initial idea of connecting tobacco offerings with a sacred place stems from my own experiences with elders. Disagree? That's cool. It also doesn't make either of us wrong. It means we've been taught differently.

 

I do think it would be disrespectful to leave something spiritual that could possibly be abused or misused. As I said before, I didn't consider something like that happening. That point is well taken, and I think I'll leave the tobacco out of the cache. As you know, there are other ways that first nations people connect to a place. Songs, stories, etc. I'll try and think of something in that vein.

 

Thanks again for the input.

[alesharks]

And it's insulting.

 

WHOA! Slow down!

I have never heard of this practice, but now I am intrigued. I see it as a chance to learn something about native culture. I agree that probably 98% of Native American culture has been horrifically trivialized, but how can we begin to understand aspects of it we have never heard of?

 

 

Most elders I have met have been excited to share their places and their ways of connecting to those places. As I said in my previous post, an elder and a prof introduced me to tobacco protocol. I've never met someone as protectionist as the original poster, but, like I said, everybody 'does' aboriginal their own way. There are probably things that I still don't know/understand about various practices, but no one has ever called me disrespectful by being party to them. In fact, putting in the effort to participate and asking questions is usually seen as very respectful.

 

My cache idea was supposed to be an introduction to a gorgeous culture. I think it's unfortunate that the average Canadian won't ever seek out such wisdom, so why not bring a piece of it to them?

 

Thanks for reading!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I wouldn't have a problem with what you propose, but there ARE those who could perceive this as a quasi-religious practice and have issues with it.

 

The key word there is "perceive". The guidelines states "Geocaches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted." Even if you, or others don't think it's an agenda (even if it's a "good" agenda), if there is a perception that the cache is placed as an agenda it's not permitted. More often than not, it boils down to how the cache page is written, however if there isn't anything on the cache page which remotely suggests an agenda someone will eventually come along, think it's inappropriate, and post a Needs Archive. As this appears to be a historical spot, a common practice is to describe the spot in general and include a link or two to other sites which, should someone feel so inclined, can go to to read more about it.

[+wildchld97]

 

There is a monument in my city that pays tribute to an old aboriginal burial ground. I wanted to store a cache there with tobacco in the bottom of it, which people could, should they choose, sprinkle a pinch of that tobacco on the land to make an offering to the creator/mother earth. I meant this cache to introduce people to an indigenous practice, in hopes that they would see this structure that they probably drive past every day in a new way.

 

The structure itself is a medicine wheel that is unfinished on one side. It's unfinished, because a decrepit power plant sits atop of a quarter of the grounds. The artist was making a statement about how healing is incomplete on that land.

 

My favourite caches so far have been the ones that tell me about the landmark/area I'm travelling to. I suppose that I could just leave out the story of the monument and area on my listing to avoid anyone calling it political, but I feel that it's an important local historical site, and not telling its story would defeat the whole purpose of the cache.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks for reading!

 

PS I know I'm pretty new. I was planning on setting this after I have a few more finds under my belt.

 

I think the best way to educate about the aboriginal culture associated with this site is to briefly explain it on your cache page. I would focus either on the mound itself (when it was discovered, if it's ever been explored by archeologists, what they found, etc.) or you can focus on the artist and the medicine wheel. You can also mention the tobacco ceremony in some context as well if you feel it's really necessary, or provide a link to a site that tells about their beliefs.

 

Educate without bias or agenda on the page and then lead people to the site. From there, they can form their own sense of wonder.

 

If you need some ideas, feel free to message me. I love to write and I love history. I might be able to help.

[alesharks]

 

There is a monument in my city that pays tribute to an old aboriginal burial ground. I wanted to store a cache there with tobacco in the bottom of it, which people could, should they choose, sprinkle a pinch of that tobacco on the land to make an offering to the creator/mother earth. I meant this cache to introduce people to an indigenous practice, in hopes that they would see this structure that they probably drive past every day in a new way.

 

The structure itself is a medicine wheel that is unfinished on one side. It's unfinished, because a decrepit power plant sits atop of a quarter of the grounds. The artist was making a statement about how healing is incomplete on that land.

 

My favourite caches so far have been the ones that tell me about the landmark/area I'm travelling to. I suppose that I could just leave out the story of the monument and area on my listing to avoid anyone calling it political, but I feel that it's an important local historical site, and not telling its story would defeat the whole purpose of the cache.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks for reading!

 

PS I know I'm pretty new. I was planning on setting this after I have a few more finds under my belt.

 

I think the best way to educate about the aboriginal culture associated with this site is to briefly explain it on your cache page. I would focus either on the mound itself (when it was discovered, if it's ever been explored by archeologists, what they found, etc.) or you can focus on the artist and the medicine wheel. You can also mention the tobacco ceremony in some context as well if you feel it's really necessary, or provide a link to a site that tells about their beliefs.

 

Educate without bias or agenda on the page and then lead people to the site. From there, they can form their own sense of wonder.

 

If you need some ideas, feel free to message me. I love to write and I love history. I might be able to help.

 

Great suggestion, I think I'll do just that. Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it when I'm ready to place the cache.