Commercial Cache Guideline Question

[+Seditious]

I know I am still in the midst of progressing with my local reviewer for my cache listing to be published, but I have devised a fun cache within a local business down the street from me, and have talked with the owner of that business for permission to place the cache, as well as agreeing that no money will be involved in order to retrieve the cache. I know that walking inside the place, or having to interact with employees is a red flag for a commercial cache which stunts publishment. I was sure that we took out the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. I am trying to bring people in the geocaching community to experience my hometown, since the nearest cache resides past the outskirts of here. There is a clause listed (which was stated by the reviewer) that says there are rare exceptions to the commercial cache rule and am hoping to coincide with the reviewer with this. I was almost certain that involving no monetary transactions to solve this cache would have taken it out of the 'commercial cache' genre considering I always thought that something commercial had to involve commerce...(hmmmm...and this is where my debate on the guidelines begins)... any suggestions and comments on this would be much appreciated.....like stated, I am still awaiting the second response on my query to the reviewer with how I could get this published after the initial censure... and if all else fails, the work put into creating this puzzle cache can be turned into a fun activity like a scavenger hunt at the business for any given night (I will say the place serves food, drinks, and has activities to partake in....it would ruin half the cache if i told you where it was =)....)...I would love for the geocaching community to partake in this cache hunt if possible, I feel it would be a great addition to anyones to-find/found list, and am hoping that the 'I hid this, lets see if your clever enough to find it' matched with a high level of fun hold big weight in the decision to publish....thanks for letting me post...Spike

[+briansnat]

I know I am still in the midst of progressing with my local reviewer for my cache listing to be published, but I have devised a fun cache within a local business down the street from me, and have talked with the owner of that business for permission to place the cache, as well as agreeing that no money will be involved in order to retrieve the cache. I know that walking inside the place, or having to interact with employees is a red flag for a commercial cache which stunts publishment. I was sure that we took out the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. I am trying to bring people in the geocaching community to experience my hometown, since the nearest cache resides past the outskirts of here. There is a clause listed (which was stated by the reviewer) that says there are rare exceptions to the commercial cache rule and am hoping to coincide with the reviewer with this. I was almost certain that involving no monetary transactions to solve this cache would have taken it out of the 'commercial cache' genre considering I always thought that something commercial had to involve commerce...(hmmmm...and this is where my debate on the guidelines begins)... any suggestions and comments on this would be much appreciated.....like stated, I am still awaiting the second response on my query to the reviewer with how I could get this published after the initial censure... and if all else fails, the work put into creating this puzzle cache can be turned into a fun activity like a scavenger hunt at the business for any given night (I will say the place serves food, drinks, and has activities to partake in....it would ruin half the cache if i told you where it was =)....)...I would love for the geocaching community to partake in this cache hunt if possible, I feel it would be a great addition to anyones to-find/found list, and am hoping that the 'I hid this, lets see if your clever enough to find it' matched with a high level of fun hold big weight in the decision to publish....thanks for letting me post...Spike

 

Money does not necessarily have to change hands for a cache to possibly be considered unacceptable under the commercial guideline. Mention of the name of a business in most instances will cause the cache to be considered commercial. Endorsement of a business can also be considered commercial. Nor, as the cache owner, do you have to benefit from the mention of the business. This is a very common misconception.

 

There is nothing in the guidelines preventing you from getting a cache published outside a business, with permission. However if you want to avoid issues with the commercial guideline. 1. Do not mention the name or even type of the business or have anything in your listing that can be considered an endorsement or an advertisement or an encouragement to enter. 2. See 1.

 

Probably not acceptable: "The cache is placed outside Doris and Ed's Hamburgers and Shakes"

Probably not acceptable: "The cache is placed outside one of my favorite eateries"

Probably not acceptable: "Doris and Ed's is known for their legendary burgers. The cache is in the parking lot with permission"

Probably not acceptable: "The cache is placed outside a local business with permission. The owners, Doris and Ed, are good friends of mine so be sure to stop in and say hello. The are great people"

 

Probably acceptable: "The cache is placed outside a local business with the permission of the owner"

 

Also the cache title can't have the name of the business in it.

 

Probably unacceptable title: "The Local Legends Series: Doris and Eds Burgers and Shakes"

Probably unacceptable title: "The Doris and Ed's macro micro"

 

You are right that exceptions can be made to the commercial guideline, but your reviewer is not authorized to make that exception. Only Groundspeak can. You can reach them at contact@geocaching.com.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited February 6, 2011 by briansnat

[Keystone]

I split the above two posts off from a longer thread.

 

On the subject, I wanted to emphasize that having a cache inside a business automatically gives it a presumption of being commercial. This means that, as a volunteer, I cannot publish it. I can only refer the cache owner to Groundspeak to see if an exception will be granted. Such exceptions are rare.

 

I took a peek at the OP's cache submission. Because the puzzle questions are answered by looking at products, signs, etc., inside the business, the cache page certainly has "overtones of advertising, marketing and promotion."

[+twoodward15]

Not arguing, and I don't know the specifics, but what if the signs are old signs of companies that are out of business, or not promoting any business (I'm thinking about the popular chain eateries with all of the non relevant signage in them)? Now, on the other hand, I still wouldn't do the cache. I don't like the thought of having to go into a business and walk around looking at stuff while every other customer watches me and is wondering why am walking around their area. It's just uncomfortable for both the cacher and the customer. To further that, If I was a customer, I don't know that I would go back to that business, especially if it was an eatery. It just feels bad all around.

[+StarBrand]

Although it is an interesting idea, I can see where such a cache can easily cross the line. It is one thing to be led to a business where a cache is placed outside of it.The secret to getting a cache like that published is to make certain the listing page itself cannot be considered in any way to promote that business at all. Once the cacher steps through the front door, however, you are preomoting the products and services within tacitly. Thats advertising. Groundspeak is a cache listing service and a business that derives income from advertising - they do not do well to give ads of any kind away for free.

[+Max and 99]

 

I took a peek at the OP's cache submission. Because the puzzle questions are answered by looking at products, signs, etc., inside the business, the cache page certainly has "overtones of advertising, marketing and promotion."

 

I don't think I'd want to go find a cache that required this of me. I'd feel very uncomfortable. It seems to require a little too much interaction.

[+Seditious]

all of these posts helped a bunch, thanks for the input..to some up what I have grasped..this cache( well....X-Cache) does reside inside of a business with permission, much of the input needed to answer the questions is around on signs and what-not...most of which are ancient companies that no longer exist and billiard history that COULD be changed to such to avoid promoting any existing company as one user stated above.... I understand the two posts that would feel uncomfortable attempting this cache, That was one aspect I never notioned because I am in my comfort zone here and similar places.... I actually feel kind of ackward when there are muggles around when searching for caches outside...I would feel more comfortable inside like this proposed cache, I neglected to think that others may not...I thought that some of the 'out-of-my-element' feeling would be surpassed knowing that the owner has ok'ed this... And to the similar post...I always have a feeling of 'i'm being watched' and 'what is he doing' while i cache anywhere....I am in new england and have had to cover my footprints in the snow by making more when finding caches...I get many many looks and gazes...The first time I did an Inside cache, the employees did look at me funny, but when I started talking to them to answer some questions, they knew why I was there and more than happy to help.....anyways...the concensus on this after the posts is that this is a bad idea and the puzzle will be turned over to the owner to use at his whim (for my sake, I like to know the few hours of work and research I put into this was not done in vein), like stated, this would serve as a great scavenger hunt for a prize of a free draft (or something) on lets say ladies night....I will lay this to rest...but I am far from stopping my centerdale RI cache placement...I will start from scratch, and the only thing I can promise is that I am going to have to make my riddles harder due to the work I put in on this first one... ;-)....thanks everyone....

Edited February 6, 2011 by Seditious