Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1
kayakbird

DISTANT DEVILS TOWER OBSERVATIONS

Recommended Posts

Chasing 1908 PLN's down US 16 yesterday, I decided to make a second log on this spire.

 

55d5219b-26e6-4581-bc3e-efbfced15a29.jpg

 

PV0523

 

First one from up north.

 

68829ceb-2508-43be-9334-4f9d34bf168e.jpg

 

Anybody got views from the east or way out west? kayakbird

 

Note: Most of the logs are still BOGUS!

Share this post


Link to post

Note: Most of the logs are still BOGUS!

 

Do you mean that they incorrectly logged the R 4 benchmark? Or that R 4 is a bogus benchmark (perhaps implemented entirely to sell paperweights)?

 

What I don't understand is how the location for the actual mark can be ADJUSTED? "THE APPROXIMATE CENTER OF THE TOP" sounds anything other than an accurate location.

Share this post


Link to post

You could find the unmarked center of a 275 ft circle to as good an accuracy as you could find a point. But I would be surprised the if top is truly circular to a degree that would allow a "center" to be defined with third order accuracy.

Share this post


Link to post

Note: Most of the logs are still BOGUS!

 

Do you mean that they incorrectly logged the R 4 benchmark? Or that R 4 is a bogus benchmark (perhaps implemented entirely to sell paperweights)?

 

What I don't understand is how the location for the actual mark can be ADJUSTED? "THE APPROXIMATE CENTER OF THE TOP" sounds anything other than an accurate location.

 

The current DS for DEVILS TOWER does not list any reference objects. That USGS mark does not have a PID,

 

Somebody else will have to address the fine points of how a L/L or elevation is ADJUSTED.

 

kayakbird

Edited by kayakbird

Share this post


Link to post

Hmm, how can a mark not have a PID? Is PV0523 not the PID?

How do you identify it otherwise?

I looked up the datasheet for PV0523, but when it was returned, it did not give the logs from the recoveries. Why?

What is Devils Tower anyhow?

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Anthony,

 

Perhaps a look at this topo map will clarify things. The approximate center of the tower is shown with a balloon and the PID. The USGS marker (in the parking lot) is identified in the red text box, and the actual location is indicated by an "X" just outside the upper right corner of the box. This disk has no PID, which is not that uncommon. Many benchmarks never make it into the NGS database, often because they were not surveyed according to NGS standards.

 

The Devil's Tower is a natural geologic object which was created when everything else eroded away, leaving a "tower" rising about 1,000 feet above average terrain. [Try Google for a description of how, why, and when this occurred.] The description in the NGS data sheet gives the dimensions. I hope this is helpful.

 

-Paul-

Share this post


Link to post

When a mark doesn't have a PID, does that mean that you can't log it?

 

If it doesn't have a PID (or at least didn't when they pulled their version of the database), it won't appear on geocaching.com, so it can't be logged there. And you can't submit a recovery log to NGS for a mark that's not in the database. You can, however, log it at Waymarking.com. The issue is that folks are logging the disk that is at the visitors center as the mark, when in fact Devil's Tower itself (or more accurately, something roughly close to the middle of the tower when viewed from a distance) is the mark.

Share this post


Link to post

Oh, so people are logging the wrong disc because they don't have any other option, or they just don't care.

 

When I looked up PV0523, it said there was a recovery in I think 2006, does that mean that it used to be a normal mark? Why would they remove it, especially this way, wouldn't it be easier/better to just remove the entry from the database alltogether?

Share this post


Link to post

Oh, so people are logging the wrong disc because they don't have any other option, or they just don't care.

 

When I looked up PV0523, it said there was a recovery in I think 2006, does that mean that it used to be a normal mark? Why would they remove it, especially this way, wouldn't it be easier/better to just remove the entry from the database alltogether?

 

PV0523 is what is called an "intersection" station. (See this wiki article.) There was never any mark, if you mean some kind of brass disk. It means that the position was determined by sighting on it remotely from other known locations, but no one ever went to the top of the tower and established a mark or took accurate measurements.

 

If you look at the data sheet, there are three things to notice: 1) HORZ ORDER - THIRD, 2) the wording in description THE POINT INTERSECTED WAS THE APPROXIMATE CENTER OF THE TOP, and 3) MARKER: 55 = TOWER.

 

1) Third order accuracy is a low accuracy -- sufficient for mapping, but not usually sufficient for geodetic or accurate surveying purposes. Most triangulation stations will be GPS, first order, or perhaps second order. Third order usually means that station was an intersection station, or perhaps was reset from reference marks after being damaged or displaced.

 

2) When a station description says "the point intersected", it is a pretty conclusive indication that the station will not be a disk, but will instead be some kind of natural or man-made landmark.

 

3) The marker is the tower rock formation itself, not a brass disk or other artificial mark.

 

If you look at the date of the 2007 recovery report, it is a GEOCAC report, and on geocaching.com you can see that it was reported by wister6813. Wister6813 correctly shows a photo of the rock formation rather than some kind of disk. If I had any complaint about the recovery report, it's that Wister6813 presumably reported the position as suitable for GPS, which isn't really true, because a) Wister6813 couldn't tell what the conditions are at the peak from his/her position a few miles away, and B) there is no "there" there that would allow precise GPS measurement of a position.

Share this post


Link to post

Note: Most of the logs are still BOGUS!

 

I don't believe that BOGUS is the correct way to describe the logs that are wrong. Most (at least 7 or 8 logs) of the wrong logs are wrong because the people "ask the Ranger where the benchmark was" after buying the paperweight. The Ranger told/showed them it was by the parking lot.

 

BOGUS implies a deliberate intent to falsely log the benchmark.

 

The majority of the logs are correct and a number of them, made note of the fact that the Ranger gave them bad information concerning where the real benchmark was located.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
If you look at the date of the 2007 recovery report, it is a GEOCAC report, and on geocaching.com you can see that it was reported by wister6813.

 

And at the time, that was an appropriate report. However, eighteen months later, GEOCAC received a request from NGS that we discontinue submission of recovery reports for "intersection" stations, such as water tanks, church spires, radio towers, etc. New technology has rendered them obsolete.

 

It is not a wise use of NGS resources to process recovery reports which have no value. Because new people constantly are joining the hobby, you will see this reminder from time to time.

 

Of course, it's still okay to log intersection stations on geocaching.com. But we no longer send them to NGS.

 

-Paul-

Edited by PFF

Share this post


Link to post

Enough already, folks; can I just see a couple more distant pictures of the "rock"?

 

I know that there will continue to be 'ERRONEOUS' logs on this one with the rangers helping out. A more PC kayakbird

Share this post


Link to post

OK, you're going to have to look real close to make this out, but it was taken from a bus on the way to Mount Rushmore, many miles to the SW. Look on the horizon just to the left of the farm in the center.

 

6bad9b15-4b1c-4312-8ffb-bf66d98df023.jpg

 

(You might have to increase the magnification - it looks more like a shadow)

Share this post


Link to post

found this on another members page..

 

afedd4fd-6a26-4655-b3f9-29e499ae9806.jpg

Edited by horseleach

Share this post


Link to post

Looking NNW from Rt 24 across from the Devil's Tower View restaurant, gift shoppe and camping emporium:

 

8af9b218-c7d0-41eb-96ee-42766c406124.jpg

 

It appears that I am the last person to log this intersection station (last Sept!) Did I scare everyone off? It's not like you could miss the real control if you found the unlisted disk.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 1

×
×
  • Create New...