What is correct cache rating

[Skippermark]

My son hid a cache, and we're curious what it should be rated.

 

The cache is on an island about 25 feet from land, and there's a sandbar 3-4' deep that connects the island to the main land if someone wants to wade/swim to it. A kayak/canoe might make it easier to do, but it's not required.

 

When rating it, I thought the terrain should be a 4, but friends say it should be a 5 because it's on an island, and most people will do it with a boat.. I was curious what ClayJar said, so I ran it through the checker, and it also rated it a 4.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Skippermark

[+geekslady]

When you put it through ClayJar did you do it as if a boat was required??

I would do that and rate it accordingly. Then in the description I would note that it may not be needed for some to use a boat if they dont mind getting their feet wet.

[+gpsfun]

I would stick with the terrain rating of 4 stars since the use of a boat is optional. Being able to wade to a T=5 cache doesn't seem correct to me.

[+addisonbr]

I think a 4 sounds about right.

[Andronicus]

I think the whole "5 because you need a boat" is goofy anyway. When I found my first 5 terrain, I felt rather let down. It was very easy. Jump on jetski. Hit the gas. Beach jetski on island. Climb low bank. Walk on flat ground. In comparison to some of my 3.5 terrain finds that were 15km hikes with 1000m elevation, it seemed rather lame.

 

I would like to see a "special equipment required" atribute, and get ride of the whole 5 star for special equipment theory. Maybe I will post that in the feedback forums

[+briansnat]

I think the whole "5 because you need a boat" is goofy anyway. When I found my first 5 terrain, I felt rather let down. It was very easy. Jump on jetski. Hit the gas. Beach jetski on island. Climb low bank. Walk on flat ground. In comparison to some of my 3.5 terrain finds that were 15km hikes with 1000m elevation, it seemed rather lame.

 

I would like to see a "special equipment required" atribute, and get ride of the whole 5 star for special equipment theory. Maybe I will post that in the feedback forums

 

I agree, but in the early days we didn't have attributes so 5 stars was designed to show that special equipment was required. With well over a million caches placed under that system it's a bit late to turn back.

[Andronicus]

I agree, but in the early days we didn't have attributes so 5 stars was designed to show that special equipment was required. With well over a million caches placed under that system it's a bit late to turn back.

Well, there is not 1million caches rated 5 terrain because special equipment is requried. I suspect there are less labled 5 terrain for that reason that there were caches with ALRs.

Edit:

I just did a PQ for terrain 5. In my province there are only 121 5* terrain caches. A lot of them are true 5* terrain caches, so the number that are due to special equipment needed is quite managable, and could easyly be corrected if a change was made.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Andronicus

[+niraD]

As others have suggested, just because you can use special equipment to reach/retrieve a cache, doesn't mean that special equipment is required.

 

Even if most finders will use equipment (a boat, a 4x4 vehicle, whatever) to make the trip easier, you should rate the terrain based on the approach without special equipment. If it is impossible without special equipment/skills/knowledge, then it's 5 stars. If it's appropriate only for experienced outdoor enthusiasts, then it's 4 stars. If it's appropriate for older kids, but not small children, then it's 3 stars. And so on.

[+Niemela]

When rating it, I thought the terrain should be a 4, but friends say it should be a 5 because it's on an island, and most people will do it with a boat.. I was curious what ClayJar said, so I ran it through the checker, and it also rated it a 4.

I would say it should be 4 too. Quoting GS on T4:

Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience

(boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

Personally I wouldn´t consider swimming or wading extremly difficult.

I´m planning a cache under a low bridge requiring you to climb off the side of the bridge (or wade), get in water and then under the bridge through reeds. I consider that a T4. Though I will be using waders to place it, it is in no way required to get the cache but a mere luxury to avoid getting wet.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Niemela

[Skippermark]

Based on what everyone has said, and since we seem to be in agreement, we'll change it back to a 4 star. I think our friends were trying to get a free 5 star out of us.

[+t4e]

I think the whole "5 because you need a boat" is goofy anyway. When I found my first 5 terrain, I felt rather let down. It was very easy. Jump on jetski. Hit the gas. Beach jetski on island. Climb low bank. Walk on flat ground. In comparison to some of my 3.5 terrain finds that were 15km hikes with 1000m elevation, it seemed rather lame.

 

 

not goofy at all, it is specialized equipment since a boat/canoe is not something everyone owns

 

as for your experience, not everyone is fortunate to have a jetski

next time try paddling few kms in a canoe instead of riding the jetski

[+Sol seaker]

There are two caches that are just what you describe, I was just recently going to go to.

 

They are sometimes reachable by foot when the lake level is down. The rest of the time you have to use a boat.

 

The cache owner used a 4.5.

 

I think that's really reasonable. It takes into consideration that some people will need to use a boat and it's not just a steep hillside.

[Andronicus]

I think the whole "5 because you need a boat" is goofy anyway. When I found my first 5 terrain, I felt rather let down. It was very easy. Jump on jetski. Hit the gas. Beach jetski on island. Climb low bank. Walk on flat ground. In comparison to some of my 3.5 terrain finds that were 15km hikes with 1000m elevation, it seemed rather lame.

 

 

not goofy at all, it is specialized equipment since a boat/canoe is not something everyone owns

 

as for your experience, not everyone is fortunate to have a jetski

next time try paddling few kms in a canoe instead of riding the jetski

The point is that just because special equipment is required does not make it a challange. I have done my fair shair of canoe paddling (I used to race them as a kid, and again in college). Canoeing is not a challange, it is special equipment. This is why I think an Atribute icon would better fit the purpose.

 

Canoeing 20km may be a challange, and justify a 5* terrain raiting, but a short 200m canoe should not be a 5* terrain just because it needs special equipment.

[+briansnat]

The point is that just because special equipment is required does not make it a challange. I have done my fair shair of canoe paddling (I used to race them as a kid, and again in college). Canoeing is not a challange, it is special equipment. This is why I think an Atribute icon would better fit the purpose.

 

but it is specialized equipment that requires specialized skills or knowledge. It might not be a challenge to you, but did you ever see two people get in a canoe for the first time? It isn't pretty.

[+addisonbr]

From a practical standpoint, the practice of automatically giving the highest terrain rating to everything that might require 'special equipment' (as defined by whomever) is that it doesn't allow for any room to differentiate.

 

A tough hike gets a higher terrain rating than an easy hike, but an easy paddle (that you could wade across if you wanted) has the same terrain rating as a really tough whitewater excursion.

 

Generally speaking I'd be in favor of more differentiation, to add some more informational value to the ratings.

[+roziecakes]

The point is that just because special equipment is required does not make it a challange. I have done my fair shair of canoe paddling (I used to race them as a kid, and again in college). Canoeing is not a challange, it is special equipment. This is why I think an Atribute icon would better fit the purpose.

 

but it is specialized equipment that requires specialized skills or knowledge. It might not be a challenge to you, but did you ever see two people get in a canoe for the first time? It isn't pretty.

 

It's definitely a challenge for someone like me. I'm quite new at rowing.

[+Chokecherry]

I've waded out to get a clue for a cache easily 20 feet into a lake and the cache was only rated 2 stars. I would go 3 or 4 stars I guess based on the fact that from what I can see from your original post the water is not that deep. We're talking 25 feet. Not miles. I'm guessing there aren't strong under currents....

[+ZeLonewolf]

We have a cacher in these parts that doesn't have a boat, yet goes for the island caches nonetheless by waiting for winter and then dashing across the ice. SOMEHOW he hasn't managed to fall in yet. In one case, the island was separated from land by less than 100 feet. Even if you couldn't wade the distance, what if you could (easily) swim to the island? Again, no special equipment. If you can reasonably get to an island cache without a boat, I'd say lowering the terrain to 4.5, 4, 3.5... would be appropriate.

[+BuckeyeClan]

The point is that just because special equipment is required does not make it a challange. I have done my fair shair of canoe paddling (I used to race them as a kid, and again in college). Canoeing is not a challange, it is special equipment. This is why I think an Atribute icon would better fit the purpose.

 

but it is specialized equipment that requires specialized skills or knowledge. It might not be a challenge to you, but did you ever see two people get in a canoe for the first time? It isn't pretty.

 

It's definitely a challenge for someone like me. I'm quite new at rowing.

 

(Pssst....if it's a canoe, you are paddling, not rowing. You use a paddle to paddle a canoe, you use oars to row a boat. )

[+GeoGeeBee]

The point is that just because special equipment is required does not make it a challange. I have done my fair shair of canoe paddling (I used to race them as a kid, and again in college). Canoeing is not a challange, it is special equipment. This is why I think an Atribute icon would better fit the purpose.

 

but it is specialized equipment that requires specialized skills or knowledge. It might not be a challenge to you, but did you ever see two people get in a canoe for the first time? It isn't pretty.

 

It's definitely a challenge for someone like me. I'm quite new at rowing.

 

(Pssst....if it's a canoe, you are paddling, not rowing. You use a paddle to paddle a canoe, you use oars to row a boat. )

 

But rowing a canoe would be quite a challenge!

[+BuckeyeClan]

 

It's definitely a challenge for someone like me. I'm quite new at rowing.

 

(Pssst....if it's a canoe, you are paddling, not rowing. You use a paddle to paddle a canoe, you use oars to row a boat. )

 

But rowing a canoe would be quite a challenge!

 

It would definitely make even the easiest paddle a 5-star terrain!

[+PartOfTheProblem]

I agree, but in the early days we didn't have attributes so 5 stars was designed to show that special equipment was required. With well over a million caches placed under that system it's a bit late to turn back.

 

I don't see why. When circumstances change, rules should change with them. There would be a transition period where you'd have caches rated under old and new rules, but so what?

 

The 5 star for special equipment thing means you are actually providing me with LESS information about the cache, because now there is no actual meaningful terrain rating at all. If I have to default to 5 start because a boat is needed, how do I designate that you ALSO have to engage in some other difficult physical activity that doesn't require equipment?

 

It's just silly.

[Andronicus]

I agree, but in the early days we didn't have attributes so 5 stars was designed to show that special equipment was required. With well over a million caches placed under that system it's a bit late to turn back.

 

I don't see why. When circumstances change, rules should change with them. There would be a transition period where you'd have caches rated under old and new rules, but so what?

 

The 5 star for special equipment thing means you are actually providing me with LESS information about the cache, because now there is no actual meaningful terrain rating at all. If I have to default to 5 start because a boat is needed, how do I designate that you ALSO have to engage in some other difficult physical activity that doesn't require equipment?

 

It's just silly.

Good point. A cache on an island that is 50m from shore is currently rated 5 stars. A cache on an island 2km from shore that is surounded by clifts is also rated 5 star. This is kind of where current system breaks down.

[Andronicus]

OK, here is my suggestions topic

 

http://feedback.geocaching.com/forums/7577...ute-should-be-a

[+Bullygoat29]

I don't see why. When circumstances change, rules should change with them. There would be a transition period where you'd have caches rated under old and new rules, but so what?

 

The 5 star for special equipment thing means you are actually providing me with LESS information about the cache, because now there is no actual meaningful terrain rating at all. If I have to default to 5 start because a boat is needed, how do I designate that you ALSO have to engage in some other difficult physical activity that doesn't require equipment?

 

It's just silly.

Good point. A cache on an island that is 50m from shore is currently rated 5 stars. A cache on an island 2km from shore that is surounded by clifts is also rated 5 star. This is kind of where current system breaks down.

 

I can see the points you're both trying to make. The simple answer is that there is still plenty of room to supply a well detailed description of everything that is involved in getting to GZ. I just can't imagine anyone going for a 5 star rating would not thoroughly read through the descriptions to see what the cache entails.

[+flaffle]

For the initial question, a T4 seems just about right. If water conditions were less than favorable it could be higher, if they are lower, well it could be a 3 or 3.5 so 4 seems a good split.

 

I've completed 23 (I think I've DNFd about 7 to 10 more) terrain 5 caches now and only used special equipment on one. It's on principal mostly and that a lot that T5 caches are overrated. I understand the initial need for it but if it's accessible to a family with a toddler in a paddle boat, that doesn't really seem the same as 20+ mile hike, Class V white water, or a 100 ft. rock climb. Yet they are rated equally. How does that make any sense? Just throwing in an attribute and rating the cache for effort involved should solve that problem.