Proposed Tag Change - Plastic?

9.4k · July 2, 2003

First off, the metal tags are great! Durable, imprinted and long-lasting. But they're also expensive to make and we're restricted as to what we can print on them.

Before you read this, we will continue to make the metal tags for those who want them.

Proposal: Change Travel Bugs to Plastic

The new design will be made out of a durable plastic which I have been told will withstand the elements very well. We have the option to customize the card shape so it is easily recognized as a travel bug item. We'll continue to use the "serial" travel bug design and add some other design elements to it.

They will be based on the key fob designs you get at PetCo and other places. Size is configurable.

We propose to create 3 tags connected so you can snap them apart. The first tag is the one you attach to the item. The second tag is your "COPY" which will have both the tracking number, activation code, and activation instructions on it. The third will be an additional tag that you can attach with the travel bug with instructions on how to log it on the geocaching.com web site.

(we may just use 2 bugs, but I like the instruction tag idea).

We'll need to add a key ring or a chain to go with the bug so you can attach it. Any recommendations? Zip ties are also an option.

If we go this route we can cut the cost of the bugs significantly, depending on how we customize them.

Thoughts? Likes? Dislikes?

Thanks!

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

5.9k · July 2, 2003

Sounds good to me. Will they be printed or embossed? What is the status on just getting a number instead of a numbered tag?

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 2, 2003

Sounds great, especially the insturction tag addition... but I also like the option of ordering just a number, and making our own tags (for those of us do-it-yourselfer types).

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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4.8k · July 2, 2003

I generally like the idea. Here are some comments/questions:

quote:
They will be based on the key fob designs you get at PetCo and other places. Size is configurable.

Does this mean they will be the same material and thickness as those designs? If so, my PetCo one hasn't held up very well! At the same time, I suppose it gets more abuse than a TB tag would.

quote:
The third will be an additional tag that you can attach with the travel bug with instructions on how to log it on the geocaching.com web site.

I think an extra instruction tag is a great idea. Many people already make their own, but plenty don't and I think it helps prevent accidental TB loss.

quote:
We'll need to add a key ring or a chain to go with the bug so you can attach it. Any recommendations? Zip ties are also an option.

I would prefer the chain because it fits most situations. I don't trust zip ties as much and a key ring might not always attach well to certain objects. Also, a key ring, and especially a zip tie, has less room to add other objects such as additional info tags, log books etc.

1k · July 2, 2003

Will the tags and the printing be DEET-proof, or will they dissolve into a gooey mess? If the serial number becomes illegible, you're dead in the water.

I like the idea of attached instructions, but I'll probably stick with the metal tags for their durability.

Worldtraveler

4.8k · July 2, 2003

quote:
Will the tags and the printing be DEET-proof, or will they dissolve into a gooey mess? If the serial number becomes illegible, you're dead in the water.

Very good point! I'm not sure there is such a thing as deet proof plastic! I would be concerned about that too.

1.1k · July 2, 2003

Good point. We'll probably do a small initial run and do some real world trials.

We're still planning on "print on demand" travel bugs, but I'd like to work out a PDF you can print out and use. We'll also have to create a nice, readable code scheme that doesn't duplicate. The GC geocache codes are nice but easy to translate.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

July 2, 2003

I dunno. There's just something about a metal tag that makes it more, for lack of a better term, serious. Pricing is important and with all kinds of PiGs (sic) out there, it's important to cut costs. Cheaper tags means more people have access to them.

I don't know what it would take, but I would prefer to have an option of metal or plastic when they are purchased.

1.2k · July 2, 2003

Hey Jeremy, I have a certain amount of expertise (actually an ACE - Adobe Certified Expert) in Adobe Acrobat.

I'll trade ya a few travel bug tags (plastic or metal) for good expert advice, if ya need me. Just email me.

-Elana (a.k.a. "Sparrowhawk")

July 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by CrimsonWrath:
I don't know what it would take, but I would prefer to have an option of metal or plastic when they are purchased.

As Jeremy mentioned in his initial post, the metal tags will continue to be available.

Elias

July 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Elias:

quote:
Originally posted by CrimsonWrath:
I don't know what it would take, but I would prefer to have an option of metal or plastic when they are purchased.

As Jeremy mentioned in his initial post, the metal tags will continue to be available.

Elias

Ya, you got me. When we meet on the trail, I give you permission to smack me!

Something else I was thinking of since posting last: With plastic, you can probably have just about any color imaginable. Green bugs, blue bugs, crimson bugs. That would be neat. Could that be possible?

July 2, 2003

Previously, I enjoyed the tactile feel of the metal dog tag. But I've come to a conclusion that some muggles and one-bies take the tag as a trophy item, without recognizing it as the identifer it actually is. A tag with bug game instructions would be helpful. A plastic tag may even take on the charm of the ubiquitous mattress tag.

July 2, 2003

I agree with a lot of what carleenp said. I like the idea of having the instructions tag, and the lower costs, but I'd be worried about the durability of the plastic used. Good field testing should answer my concerns though.

----

When in doubt, poke it with a stick.

2.2k · July 2, 2003

I also like the idea of an instruction tag, but I prefer the metal T-Bug tag over plastic. I would suggest that you also supply the plastic instruction tag with the metal tags when they are purchased.

RM

2.1k · July 3, 2003

Options are good. But I would recommend one style (can be either plastic or metal). That way they are immediately known what they are. As far as printing your own, then everyone would be doing it and it would be very saturated with bugs. I think the cost helps control it a little. People can always make their own hitchhikers and place their own way of tracking it. Many do it with the geocoins and tokens. Just make a message board of your own and make a topic for each one. Of course you won't know the actual mileage that the bug traveled like the GC travelbugs. But they an get an idea. And before people start saying they don't know how or can't afford a message board. There are places like EZboard that allows you to make one for free on their server. Plus many places that supply free webspace have guestbooks, which is another alternative.

There were some good points brought up about the plastic bugs. Another one is what about bugs that sit in a cache in the north that gets extreme cold temperatures? Are they going to get brittle and break? Plus the plastic colors may fade if exposed to sunlight. (not sure why they would be exposed to sunlight, but I'm sure some are). Plus people who pick up travel bugs an throw in their car. Will the summer heat melt them or break them down any?

I would say to let the purchaser attach the tags to the bugs in whichever means they want. Of course the chain supplied with the metal ones automatically give them something to attach it with, but nothing says they have to use it as I'm sure many don't.

The instruction tag is good option. Perhaps that should be available for download to print out and the owner can attach in a way they want. Many already have such a thing. A standard one from Groundspeak would be nice. Or just single tags that could be purchased when the metal ones are ordered.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

5.9k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Sounds good to me. Will they be printed or embossed? What is the status on just getting a number instead of a numbered tag?

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Again:

Will they be printed or embossed?

What is the status on just getting a number instead of a numbered tag?

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

6.5k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
Again:

_Will they be printed or embossed? _

_What is the status on just getting a number instead of a numbered tag?_

Good question, in the 6th post Jeremy says:

"We're still planning on "print on demand" travel bugs, but I'd like to work out a PDF you can print out and use. We'll also have to create a nice, readable code scheme that doesn't duplicate. The GC geocache codes are nice but easy to translate."

Anyone know anymore than that?? Like a timeline?

6.5k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
As far as printing your own, then everyone would be doing it and it would be very saturated with bugs. I think the cost helps control it a little.

As often as they seem to get side tracked and just MIA, I wonder if that would be a problem.

3.8k · July 3, 2003

I believe you'd still have to ''buy'' the number to have it tracked on the website so it's not like it's free. It would just allow home made tags to be registered.

PDOP's GPS Pages

2.1k · July 3, 2003

Well if you are going to buy a number, then you might as well just get their tracking tag and include one of your own with the information and design you want.

THe next thing we will have is TB approvers....hehe

Yeah I do hear a lot about a bunch of them going MIA. But if people just printed up something, then someone would go and buy a bag of armymen and attach a tracker to each one and start dropping them all over. Or something somewhat similar. I think that ordering the TB, having to wait for them, will make some of those type think that a $1 bag worth of army men (50 army men?) is not worth $5 a piece or more (cost of the TB) . I have no problem with a homemade system as I stated about the coins. Depending on the hitchhiker or bug, I would probably help out a TB with the bought tag before I would one that I wasn't too sure of.

Like I sated, it's a significance (the metal tag). Those who already cache know exactly what they are when they hear that tag and chain rattling.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

6.5k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
Well if you are going to buy a number, then you might as well just get their tracking tag and include one of your own with the information and design you want.

Or you could just the make the whole thing however you want.

quote:
Yeah I do hear a lot about a bunch of them going MIA. But if people just printed up something, then someone would go and buy a bag of armymen and attach a tracker to each one and start dropping them all over. Or something somewhat similar.

Stop giving away my idea!

quote:
I think that ordering the TB, having to wait for them, will make some of those type think that a $1 bag worth of army men (50 army men?) is not worth $5 a piece or more (cost of the TB).

I think you mean cost of the tag.

The way I see it is, Cheaper cost to buy = more gc.com TBs = more money for gc.com

quote:
I have no problem with a homemade system as I stated about the coins. Depending on the hitchhiker or bug, I would probably help out a TB with the bought tag before I would one that I wasn't too sure of.

Theres nothing saying you can't make hitchhikers on your own, but If gc.com can really cache in on travelers... why not?

quote:
Like I sated, it's a significance (the metal tag). Those who already cache know exactly what they are when they hear that tag and chain rattling.

I don't think the tag is as important as you. Not all gc.com TBs have the dog tag attached, nor do they a chain to rattle.

July 3, 2003

Here's another thought:

If you can make them on your own, what would prevent you from making a copy of someone else's TB out there? When you've got one of the metal TBs, you know it is authentic. If there are homemade tags, how do you know which one the real one is?

Do we have homemade currency?

3.8k · July 3, 2003

If I remember right the option to buy a number would cost less to reflect the savings of not supplying the tag. You would still have to go through the activation procedure for the number so that your home made tag could be tracked on the site.

PDOP's GPS Pages

6.5k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by PDOP's:
If I remember right the option to buy a number would cost less to reflect the savings of not supplying the tag. You would still have to go through the activation procedure for the number so that your home made tag could be tracked on the site.

http://members.shaw.ca/pdops/

That would be what I recall as well. It would also I think spend things up. Groundspeak wouldn't have to stock or resupply the tags, just collect money and issue numbers.

6.5k · July 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by CrimsonWrath:
Here's another thought:

If you can make them on your own, what would prevent you from making a copy of someone else's TB out there? When you've got one of the metal TBs, you know it is _authentic_. If there are homemade tags, how do you know which one the real one is?

Nothing, but thats the same 'security' you have with the current ones. There are already travelers that do not have the tag, it got lost(whole or part), damaged, or maybe just was used when the traveler was released.

quote:
Do we have homemade currency?

Probly, but those are not Government obligations(unless, you are the government of your country ).

July 3, 2003

I like the idea as long as the metal ones would still be an option. A travel Bug shaped Travel Bug would be COOL!

8.9k · July 4, 2003

I purchased the metal tag for Milo, but couldn't use the tag based on his size. His tag (in the picture) is at least as adequate as the metal bug.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

2.1k · July 4, 2003

What if someone puts a matchbox car as a TB (hypothetical). They purchase a number and make a tag for it. Then I pickup that TB. What's to say I don't go and get the same car at the store and make up a tag for it with the exact same number that you printed on your tag? Then I drop into a cache somewhere? Now you will have 2 TB's that look exactly the same with the same number on them and there are posts being made about it in one area and then in another. I think that would easily foul up the tracking system.

I know it sounds evil and like a criminal, but I have worked in law enforcement/prisons for a long time and you learn to think ahead like one to help detere problems.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

July 4, 2003

If it ain't broke...

The biggest problem with travel bugs appears to be the loss rate. Owners already have the option of attaching an instruction tag. Making the color, material and shape of tb tags will add to the confusion and loss rate.

I would prefer that the time and energy be spent on those features of the website that are broken and waiting to be fixed.

5.9k · July 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:

I know it sounds evil and like a criminal, but I have worked in law enforcement/prisons for a long time and you learn to think ahead like one to help detere problems.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

No need to get personnal, that's not something I would do.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 4, 2003

I love the Milo TB! If you've got a large cache, it would be an extra hunt just to find him!

If we use Milo as an example, after someone picks up Milo, what's to stop them from releasing some other item with a printed tag with the same "secret number?"

I think in the end, the answer is nothing, but the bug owner has the power to delete logs on the site so they can clean up any strays.

The "security" we have with current bugs is there is only one type out there that is official. If you are holding a metal bug that is stamped with the proper code, there's little doubt that it is real. You could copy the code and write it on paper and send it off with a fake, but if anyone ever saw the two side by side, it would be obvious which one was valid.

Back to the homemade currency topic. Paper money has value only because there is a trust by the people using it that it has real value. Think of the metal bugs as being stamped "E Plurbis Groundspeak." I think people should be able to develop their own bugs and tracking (that's part of the innovation of the sport), but if you are holding something that is not as official or trusted, there's less chance you can go to a McDonald's and buy a burger with it...

I think the key think missing with the homemade bugs is some way to validate that what you have is the real deal. Maybe it is as simple as comparing what you have in your hand to the picture you see on the web page. The nice thing about the metal and the (potentially) new plastic tags that are bought online and shipped to you is they can't be reproduced. You know when you see it miles from civilization that it is real.

6.5k · July 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
What if someone puts a matchbox car as a TB (hypothetical). They purchase a number and make a tag for it. Then I pickup that TB. What's to say I don't go and get the same car at the store and make up a tag for it with the exact same number that you printed on your tag? Then I drop into a cache somewhere? Now you will have 2 TB's that look exactly the same with the same number on them and there are posts being made about it in one area and then in another. I think that would easily foul up the tracking system.

What stops, someone from coping Milo, RollerbladingGrandpa, or any other TB, and then dropping it into a cache somewhere?

2.1k · July 4, 2003

They can get the same bugs physically but the generated tags from Groundspeak with the stamped number, make it more secure. Groundspeak is going to publish only one set of tags per number. If people can make their own (homemade - printed up on the printer),then others can copy them easier.

As far as CrimsonWraths speaking about the owner can delete the wrong paths that are inpu into the log, how do you know which one is the correct one? Then some poor souls are going to keep getting the wrong one and it's going to cause some confusion if the owner can't track down the cache owner that the fake bug is in and remove it.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

July 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by welch:
What stops, someone from coping Milo, RollerbladingGrandpa, or _any_ other TB, and then dropping it into a cache somewhere?

http://brillig.com/geocaching/http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/22008_1700.gif http://www.gpgeocaching.com/

Same thing that stops them from stealing bugs now. Nothing.

Let's say you come across this cache with tons of bugs in it. Which one are you going to take? One of the metal tags with a number stamped on it or one handwritten in crayon on a napkin? Okay, I'm not doing homemade tags justice with that but the point is still the same. What kind of quality would a homemade tag need to express before you believed that when you took it home it was real or fake?

6.5k · July 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
They can get the same bugs physically but the generated tags from Groundspeak with the stamped number, make it more secure.

I disagree. How does having to buy a metal tag, or any tag, make the TB less likely to be copied? Come on, you've seen how innovative geocachers can be! If someone wants to cause problems, they will, if theres a tag or not.

quote:
Woodsters Outdoors:
Groundspeak is going to publish only one set of tags per number. If people can make their own (homemade - printed up on the printer),then others can copy them easier.

First, it doesn't need to be 'printed up on the printer'. Second, How does not having a tag make it easier to copy??

quote:
CrimsonWrath:
Same thing that stops them from stealing bugs now. Nothing.

Exactly

quote:
Let's say you come across this cache with tons of bugs in it. Which one are you going to take? One of the metal tags with a number stamped on it or one handwritten in crayon on a napkin? Okay, I'm not doing homemade tags justice with that but the point is still the same.

I'd take them all, but If I could carry only one. I would pick the traveler that I liked most. Best story, coolest item, most original design or mission & etc. would be used to determine which I liked. It would not be based on the presence of metal dog tags, or if it has a chain. Maybe I'd take the one where the serial has been carved in, or otherwise incorporated in some interesting way.

quote:
What kind of quality would a homemade tag need to express before you believed that when you took it home it was real or fake?

A TB with no tag, could show as much or as little "quality", as a TB with a tag.

You would do the same comparing it to the avaiable information (description, pictures etc.), assume it is, and treat it as the TB.

July 4, 2003

Yes the cost of a TB is high but I think that this is one of the ways to keep the system from being "trashed". You can already personalize by having a hitchhiker. It is great to see a new TB show up in a local cache. I look at those more closely because soneone has put out some money to make the TB something to look for. A million more junk TBs out there just cheapens the idea. Jeremy started this with a solid idea. Anytime a product becomes "cheaper, more clever, or "better" usually ends up just the opposite. Go plastic but "KISS" (Keep It Simple Stupid)but also keep the metal.

How many TBs are out there Jeremy?? Keep it high classed. The real thrill is finding a well thought out cache with nice items (not cheap Dollar store beads, etc.) and a TB with a well thought out hitchhiker

"I always go that extra mile, but it is because I don't stip and ask directions."

TejasBill

July 4, 2003

Just my $0.02 here...

It's exciting to open up a cache and find a bug, or see one on a cache page and race over to grab it. The metal dogtags are distinctive and any cacher knows one when they see it. Because not everybody here is serious enough about the sport to dish out the six bucks, you only see one every once-in-a-while, and that's what makes it exciting.

If we made TB's cheaper to get, or let people make their own, everybody would have a travel bug and it would almost ruin the whole travel bug idea. I know it seems like it would be cool if everybody could play the Travel-Bug "game", but it would take away the "specialness" of Travel Bugs, as would having different colors/styles of tags.

My opinion summed-up: Stick with the metal bugs. Everybody knows what they look like. Don't try to lower the price or let people make their own. The $6 price is what keeps travel bugs special. It's not too much, but just enough so that it's still exciting to open up a cache and find a shiny tag on a chain.

Gee Enginuity - Turning great ideas into abandoned projects since 1999

2.1k · July 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by welch:

I disagree. How does having to buy a metal tag, or any tag, make the TB less likely to be copied? Come on, you've seen how innovative geocachers can be! If someone wants to cause problems, they will, if theres a tag or not.

Having a standard tag makes it less succeptable of the thing being copied. First of all, there will not be another tag like it with a number like it. It is a lot more difficult for someone to produce an identical professionally produced tag like Geroundspeak puts out. If people paid for a number alone and make a tag at home or wrote it on something, then it is more likely that the whole thing can be copied, causing confusion. There's nothing saying that 2 different people can't have the same item (McToy) for a bug, but hte number makes the difference.

quote:
First, it doesn't need to be 'printed up on the printer'. Second, How does not having a tag make it easier to copy??

Used the "printing it up" example as someone mentioned that earlier. Where will the number go? It will have to printed , written on or burned in, etc, and be on something. If someone can get ahold of the same type of item that the travel bug is and the number is not secured on a tag that can not be reproduced or one that will be expensive to produce, then it will definitely detere those who may try.

quote:
I'd take them all, but If I could carry only one. I would pick the traveler that I liked most. Best story, coolest item, most original design or mission & etc. would be used to determine which I liked. It would not be based on the presence of metal dog tags, or if it has a chain. Maybe I'd take the one where the serial has been carved in, or otherwise incorporated in some interesting way.

But what if there are 2 in that same cache that look exactly the same and they both have the same serial number and the numbers are applied the same way. Which one of those would you take? What if you placed a travel bug out there and it all of a sudden and then someone copied it with the same type of bug, number and was applied the same way? People will do it as a game. They already steal them as it is and hold on to them longer than what we want. It's a game for them. Why add to the confusion? There's nothing saying that you can take the number on the tag that you purchase and apply it to your bug in your own cool way. It's just a way of verifying that it's a TB that can be tracked on geocaching.com. As been stated before, there are hitchhikers. Make up your own tracking system. If you have knowledge of programming and scripting, then you could make a similar system and have your own website. Do as some others and put a guestbook or forum on your own website and let others help you track your bug.

quote:
A TB with no tag, could show as much or as little "quality", as a TB with a tag.

You would do the same comparing it to the avaiable information (description, pictures etc.), assume it is, and treat it as _the_ TB.

That is fine if your travel bug is a one of a kind that can't be reproduced. The problem with people who will be able to do their own is that the tags help promote Groundspeak and geocaching.com . People will be making their own tags or applying their own numbers to them. The tags in which we currently use are of professional, grade, quality and appearance. GC has taken the time, energy, effort, and money to bring a service for us to use, free of charge.

I think of dropping the quality (not everyones but probably most) of the tags or not using a common identifyer, that it will drop the fun out of the bugs. It wil lbe so saturated with them. Especially when you drop the cost down. And then if even dropped the cost down, why would someone want to pay for a number? People could do it freely on their own as I mentioned above. What if they left the price as it is and you could make your own tag or apply the number on your own? You can already do that. But, if you don't have that metal tag, which is hard to reproduce, then your bug could easily be copied, or it would be easier to copy.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

July 5, 2003

I'm a newbie to GeoCaching and have only found 2 caches. Nor have I ever seen a TB! But I think I can comment on the plastic/metal debate.

Its true, there's something about metal that gives it a better "quality" than plastic. Whenever I do find my first TB I would rather grab a metal one than a plastic variety.

Having been in the stamped metal industry previously, I have some experience with stamping. Sending your design out for re-bid will probably yield some reduced pricing. Your concept is simple; a die-cut metal plate with serialized stamping. Its not as expensive as it sounds. Your best source for info would be a THomas Register. Don't buy the whole set, you can use the one at the library. The complete set is over a grand.

With regards to plastic, there are so many types of plastic and plastic additives out there. To be able to spec a plastic that is UV inhibitive, DEET inhibitive and impervious to all elements is going to cost some major $$$$. The only plastic I can think of that will survive is HDPE (high-density polyethylene). Again, the THomas Register can lead you in the right direction.

Thats my three cents worth....now if I can only get a TB!!

2.2k · July 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Music Dwarf:
Its not as expensive as it sounds. Your best source for info would be a THomas Register. Don't buy the whole set, you can use the one at the library. The complete set is over a grand.

You don't have to go to the library either. You can access the Thomas Register online for free. RM

July 5, 2003

I know that here in Australia, with the element of fire every summer, a metal tag could mean the survival of a TB(a few got burnt last summer, but the tags survived). A plastic tag would not stand a chance.

I know that Jeremy said that the metal tags would still be available, I just thought I would point out a reason why they should be still used

6.5k · July 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Woodsters Outdoors:
Having a standard tag makes it less succeptable of the thing being copied. First of all, there will not be another tag like it with a number like it. It is a lot more difficult for someone to produce an identical professionally produced tag like Geroundspeak puts out. If people paid for a number alone and make a tag at home or wrote it on something, then it is more likely that the whole thing can be copied, causing confusion. There's nothing saying that 2 different people can't have the same item (McToy) for a bug, but hte number makes the difference.

I don't see it that way, and it would still be the same way without a tag. The number makes the difference.

quote:
Used the "printing it up" example as someone mentioned that earlier. Where will the number go? It will have to printed , written on or burned in, etc, and be on something. If someone can get ahold of the same type of item that the travel bug is and the number is not secured on a tag that can not be reproduced or one that will be expensive to produce, then it will definitely detere those who may try.

Im not going to restate evey way a serial number could be incorporated. If you want to know that you'll have think some up yourself, or read some of the old threads on this issue, like this or this.

quote:
But what if there are 2 in that same cache that look exactly the same and they both have the same serial number and the numbers are applied the same way. Which one of those would you take? What if you placed a travel bug out there and it all of a sudden and then someone copied it with the same type of bug, number and was applied the same way? People will do it as a game. They already steal them as it is and hold on to them longer than what we want. It's a game for them. Why add to the confusion? There's nothing saying that you can take the number on the tag that you purchase and apply it to your bug in your own cool way. It's just a way of verifying that it's a TB that can be tracked on geocaching.com. As been stated before, there are hitchhikers. Make up your own tracking system. If you have knowledge of programming and scripting, then you could make a similar system and have your own website. Do as some others and put a guestbook or forum on your own website and let others help you track your bug.

There will always be a few people who try to mess things up. But if someone could release two or three TBs instead of one, they are not going to care as much if one goes MIA. They would just count it as a lose, and work up another one, and send it out. This would also reduce the number 'My TB went MIA' and 'This guys had mine for 3months!' complaints.

Yes, you could buy a serial on a tag, and not use the tag, but then you would have to pay three times as much for the same thing.

quote:
That is fine if your travel bug is a one of a kind that can't be reproduced. The problem with people who will be able to do their own is that the tags help promote Groundspeak and geocaching.com . People will be making their own tags or applying their own numbers to them. The tags in which we currently use are of professional, grade, quality and appearance. GC has taken the time, energy, effort, and money to bring a service for us to use, free of charge.

If the tag is the only security the current TBs have, then all someone has to do is create a plausible copy, and then attach it to a Mr.PotatoHead or Spiderman Mctoy, because there are plenty of readymade copies of that around. TBs without a tag are still going to be promoting this site. The people that find it have to come here to report it, and its system is still only going to work on gc.com with gc.com approved caches.

"People will be making their own tags or applying their own numbers to them. "

I don't know if your grasping what Im talking about or not. You would not get to make your own number. You would send Groundspeak money(say with paypal), and they would send you back the serials (say an email attachement), instead of having to wait for the serials (and the tags they're on) to come in the mail.

Selling serials w/o a tag would make the process easier and quicker. Groundspeak wouldn't have to deal with a stamp&die company, wouldn't have to have an inventory or restocking tags, they would just send emails and collect money.

quote:
I think of dropping the quality (not everyones but probably most) of the tags or not using a common identifyer, that it will drop the fun out of the bugs. It wil lbe so saturated with them. Especially when you drop the cost down. And then if even dropped the cost down, why would someone want to pay for a number? People could do it freely on their own as I mentioned above. What if they left the price as it is and you could make your own tag or apply the number on your own? You can already do that. But, if you don't have that metal tag, which is hard to reproduce, then your bug could easily be copied, or it would be easier to copy.

I think it will add to the fun. People that wouldn't release a TB before because of the high tag cost, might now release one. There will be more races, and more entries per race.

'If we drop the price we'll be saturated', if thats true, then how come theres not already five (or whatever saurated means) Hitchhikers (either personal sites, or the larger free ones) in every cache?

People will still by the gc.com tags as they help support that site, have easy to follow maps,links, and instructions, and are still going to be the only intergrated system allowing the following icon & etc.

That metal tag is like writing "do not steal" on a cache. If that deters anyone, they really didn't care if they steal the cache to begin with.

2.1k · July 5, 2003

I understand the system you were speaking of Welch, but my view is that it will make it harder for people to make a copy of that tag, other than some other way that a person would do on their own. And there is nothing saying that you can not use the numbers that are on the tags bought from Groundspeak and apply them your own way. The only thing I think is that you would want that hard to produce tag from Groundspeak as an icon of authenticity. It's entirely up to the person to actually use the tag or not. Personally I would as there are so many bugs MIA as it is, that having 2 or 3 with the same number on it won't help me watch my bug and trying to figure out which one is the real one.

I understand the thought of getting the number faster. Trust me, I waited a week after ordering mine and received and email stating they would be shipped the next day. Got them 2 or 3 days short of 2 weeks from when ordering.

Brian Wood

Woodsters Outdoors

http://www.woodsters.com

July 7, 2003

Okay! Now my turn!

1. I like the metal bugs.

2. If there were plastic bugs, I would probably like them too.

a. DEET Proof is a must

b. Stamped is good in case writing/embossing is DEETed off or otherwise comes off.

3. I like the chains that come with...but I have bought (at a very low price and multiple uses) zip strips for a bug.

a. Individual choice for item affixed to shouldn't be placed on the seller.

4. Multiple uses of a TB's number has been used before (See Alien Army) for racking up miles and such. That is what I would consider excessive use of a number.

5. I like to see where my bugs have gone, and the one that was/is held hostage. (Though I don't like my TB held hostage).

a. If a bug has been lost/stolen, a replacement of plastic or something to carry-on in the originals absence could be looked at.

All in All, I commend Jeremy and group for their continued forward thinking and development of this fun and exciting....sport (is that what it is)...Future for the Olympics.

1k · July 7, 2003

I would like to point out one thing here. Jeremy did not say that he was looking for a way to lower the price of the tags, but rather to avoid the rising costs of printing the metal tags. (I apologize Jeremy if I am reading this wrong).

To me that means that the cost of the metal tags will have to go up if we want to keep that option. Let's just say for example, that the new plastic tags would be available for $4 or you can order the original metal ones for $8. Which would you choose? I like the metal tags too, but I am cheap, so I would probably opt for the plastic.

-Junglehair

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

July 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by junglehair:
I would like to point out one thing here. Jeremy did not say that he was looking for a way to lower the price of the tags, but rather to avoid the rising costs of printing the metal tags.

Thanks for pointing that out, but I think you should reread Jeremy's post. The costs of the metal bugs aren't rising, but we are looking for a way to provide a cheaper alternative that is easier to customize. The whole point of this is to find a cheaper alternative that we can sell for less.

Elias

July 7, 2003

sounds just dandy to me! I love the instruction idea. But how about possible engraving of the owner's name on the tags as well?? Just a thought.

Happy Hunting!!! Watch out travel bugs... here we come.

1k · July 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Elias:
Thanks for pointing that out, but I think you should reread Jeremy's post. The costs of the metal bugs aren't rising, but we are looking for a way to provide a cheaper alternative that is easier to customize. The whole point of this is to find a cheaper alternative that we can sell for less.

Elias

Ok - thanks for clarifying. I guess my point is still the same. I like the metal tags, but if plastic ones were cheaper - I would probably buy them instead.

I like the idea of the instructions tag as well.

-Junglehair

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

5.9k · July 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Elias:

quote:
Originally posted by junglehair:
I would like to point out one thing here. Jeremy did not say that he was looking for a way to lower the price of the tags, but rather to avoid the rising costs of printing the metal tags.

Thanks for pointing that out, but I think you should reread Jeremy's post. The costs of the metal bugs aren't rising, but we are looking for a way to provide a cheaper alternative that is easier to customize. The whole point of this is to find a cheaper alternative that we can sell for less.

Elias

I thought the issue with TB cost had more to do with the shipping and "handling" than the actual expense of the bug.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

July 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

I thought the issue with TB cost had more to do with the shipping and "handling" than the actual expense of the bug.

If that is the case, they should plop the bugs into the nearest cache and let the cachers deliver them!

Proposed Tag Change - Plastic?

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