Is this moderator advice warranted

[+Jacaru & Wemnog]

Having read, and reread this topic time and again, and now having been the victim of abuse, both what you could call non invasive and invasive and having involved the police, I can only say that the involvement of police is both important and necessary. I now, having previously stated that it was playing in to such a groups hand, now feel that it IS necessary to report any such incidence as far from being trivial can be a case of from "small acorns" I have now been the subject of major abuse, not only on public forums but to the extenct of having my GS forum hacked and renamed. It IS important to hilight abuse in any way case or form and the Police do take such things seriously.

[Deceangi]

Sorry but it seems several posters to this topic have not fully read the Pinned topic it is about. Graculus who wrote the initial post in that topic, specifically stated

 

I have spoken to my local police and they have confirmed that this is the case.

 

I have made Bold the relevant words. The post was made and the advice given, after the issue was discussed with the Police. Who stated that the taking of the Caches and contents without the Owners Consent, With the deliberate aim of depriving the owner of them. Is in fact Theft and should be reported to the Police.

 

There is a extremely high chance that they will only take a Report and not actually investigate the theft. But it allows all those crimes to be collated, for when the person(s) are caught. So that the value of the crimes committed is no longer the value of just one stolen cache, it becomes the cumulative value of all of the stolen caches.

 

Cachers in the US were in a similar situation, their culprit was eventually caught, and ended up going to Court. So by saying not to report such thefts, you are just telling the person stealing them to happily carry on!

 

Just to make it very clear to the nay sayers! It is the Police themselves who have stated that the thefts should be reported to them. Once again, if you wish to dispute this. Please contact Graculus, and he will happily give you details of the Police Station where the advice was given. Please contact the Police based there and dispute their advice with them.

 

Deci

[+Palujia]

Having also discussed the nature of theft on the GAGB forums and as a retired policeman and with an additional ten years as a Police Control Room supervisor I fall into the category of Yes - you should report all thefts. In the Thames Valley area they go to an enquiry centre rather than a full "999" control room and are mostly dealt with by a civilian operator rather than an Officer. I agree that there are legions of stories of "bad service"and, as a Supervisor, I have often been tasked to review complaints. It is a sad reflection of our modern existance that, at least in Thames Valley, all calls to enquiry centres, and control room are recorded, and reviewing complaints of bad service is a fact of life these days. I won't say how many complaints are found to be frivolous or unfounded but the majority are not proven. It would appear that in a lot of cases frustration with the system (I know the dreaded "press one" for this and "press two" for that)which the majority of operators dislike(As by the time a frustrated member of the publice actually gets through to a human they are pretty steamed up!)They tend to be a little "short" with the operator. This tends to put the operator's back up (also remember that Public Servant - does not mean Public Lacky) and in some cases the service is not as good as it should be. I know there should be no exuse for this and, in a perfect world, this would not be the 50th p****d off member of the public they have had to deal with in a long and tiring shift. But, and a big But it should not stop the reporting of theft. Just be aware of human failings and think what would happen if roles were reversed and someone was shouting down the phone at you !!As an adjunct to this I spent a long proportion of my career as a "village bobby" complete with funny hat, cape and bicycle. I would investigate every reported crime and try to ensure that the reporter of the crime was treated properly and even if it was a negative result at least informed and notes made for future occurances, so that if a series of crimes happened (as with the destruction/removal of caches)We at least had something to go on . orry, gone on a bit !!

cheers

lets catch these people and get on with our great hobby

[+NickandAliandEliza]

..........(also remember that Public Servant - does not mean Public Lacky)..............

 

Now that is a phrase I'm going to have to remember. I might even get a t-shirt printed. You haven't got it copyrighted have you?

 

[+Palujia]

Go for it !! - what force are you from then ??

[+trahciul]

Sorry but it seems several posters to this topic have not fully read the Pinned topic it is about. Graculus who wrote the initial post in that topic, specifically stated

 

I have spoken to my local police and they have confirmed that this is the case.

 

Firstly let me say that I assume the police have a duty to investigate the theft of any article regardless of its cost. If they were to say that they will not investigate trivial crime then they would be heavily criticised. It is therefore up to the individual to assess whether the crime should be reported. From what I can see from the media the police have limited time and manpower to investigate more serious crimes and should not have to waste time on damaged or stolen geocaches. If my mother was alive and I had complained to her that my geocache had been stolen she would have clipped me about the ear and told that I was stupid to leave it unattended.

 

Theft of geocoins from Wikipedia:-

It is not uncommon for activated, released geocoins to go missing, whether because a cacher is unfamiliar with the logging and tracking process or due to outright theft. Some geocoin owners will purposefully attempt to destroy the resale value of the coin by drilling and tagging it with an extra tag, marker, or other item that is intended to underscore the fact that the geocoin is meant to travel, not to be ki ept[1]. Another somewhat controversial anti-theft measure is to create a copy of the geocoin, releasing the copy and keeping the original[2].

 

And again from Wikipedia:-

September 30, 2001 The first trackable geocoin released was the Moun10Bike Version 1 Geocoin #002.[3] The Moun10Bike Version 1 Geocoins are the most sought-after geocoins in existence. They are all displayed on geocaching.com as owned by Moun10Bike and he has strictly forbidden their sale; however, unscrupulous or ignorant persons may list the coin for sale on auction sites such as eBay, fetching prices in the thousands of USD. When he finds that a coin has been sold without permission, he has the coin locked so it is no longer trackable.[4]

 

I have to say that I don’t approve of geocoins as I think they only encourage people to steal them to sell or collect which creates a nasty side to an otherwise harmless and enjoyable pastime. I certainly do not wish to complain to the police as part of my hobby. I you are into geocoins then you must accept that you are going to lose them. If you can’t accept that then don’t play the game.

[Deceangi]

 

I have to say that I don't approve of geocoins as I think they only encourage people to steal them to sell or collect which creates a nasty side to an otherwise harmless and enjoyable pastime. I certainly do not wish to complain to the police as part of my hobby. I you are into geocoins then you must accept that you are going to lose them. If you can't accept that then don't play the game.

 

It might be of interest to you, that the information was obtain and the advice given. Due to a specific Person(s) knowingly and deliberately targeting Geocaches [that's the container and all contents including Geocoins/TB Tags] with the aim of Stealing them and their contents. We are now talking in the region of a over £1,000 worth of property being stolen by this person. That is not a minor issue, which is why it is important that thefts are reported to the Police. So that when this person is caught, the actual history of the crimes committed is available.

 

FYI there has been one case in the UK of the Police becoming involved after complaints about a person deliberately trashing caches. That person received a visit off the Police, and all such incidents stopped.

 

In the US there is now a record of a person ending up in court, after being caught stealing caches, the local cachers having reported the thefts to the Police. Had created a history of such thefts, so it was provable that it was not a one off incident.

 

If people had followed your advice, neither of the above would have been possible. The advice covers the theft of Containers and TB tags, not just Geocoins.

 

I sincerely hope that when you come to place a cache, that it is never deliberately targeted and stolen. Otherwise you will come to understand exactly why the advice has been given. I know others who have posted to this topic in the negative. Have caches well outside the targeted area, so are well aware that their caches are not at risk of being targeted by this person.

 

Deci

[+trahciul]

It might be of interest to you, that the information was obtain and the advice given. Due to a specific Person(s) knowingly and deliberately targeting Geocaches [that's the container and all contents including Geocoins/TB Tags] with the aim of Stealing them and their contents. We are now talking in the region of a over £1,000 worth of property being stolen by this person. That is not a minor issue, which is why it is important that thefts are reported to the Police. So that when this person is caught, the actual history of the crimes committed is available.

 

 

Deci

 

The £1000 you quote is not £1000 from one person but more likely £5 from each individual. That is trivial. The government steals more than £5 from me in tax every time I go shopping! It depresses me that police time is being wasted trying to find this person. It would also, I think, be very difficult to prove in court that someone had stolen a coin.

As for a cache being stolen or destroyed...you are talking about a piece of plastic! You surely can't be serious about this?

I have heard no suggestions from anyone on this list about how to solve the problem. Geocaching is in its infancy in this country, and as a hobby, and I think we have to re-think the whole concept of geocoins.

If your house is burgled and you report it to the police the next thing that will happen is that the crime provention officer will contact you to see if he can make your house more secure. Perhaps you need to remember to lock the door... Perhaps you need an alarm!

What can we do to make our caches more secure??

Edited September 19, 2010 by trahciul

[+paulbarratt]

Ok. Having read the last post I have to point out a few things that just don't add up.

 

The £1000 you quote is not £1000 from one person but more likely £5 from each individual. That is trivial.

 

So serial theft is trivial???? Not according to the police.

 

The government steals more than £5 from me in tax every time I go shopping!

 

Errrm no. Tax cannot be classed as theft otherwise it would be illegal.

 

It depresses me that police time is being wasted trying to find this person.

 

So the police are asking us to waste their time????

 

I have heard no suggestions from anyone on this list about how to solve the problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the suggestion about reporting it to the police is one suggestion. Since it comes from the police via the UK reviewers it seems pretty much acceptable.

 

Geocaching is in its infancy in this country.

 

Really???? I'm pretty sure it's been going for approx 10 years (maybe 9 ish) in this country. About the same length of time that the hobby has existed. In any case it can by no means be described as in it's infancy.

 

I'm sorry if you take offence to me picking apart your post but the fact that I'm a colossal pedant means I couldn't just let it lie.

[+Happy Humphrey]

The £1000 you quote is not £1000 from one person but more likely £5 from each individual. That is trivial.

£1000 might well be trivial to you, but as Deci and others have said, why not leave it to the police to decide whether they can afford time to investigate? Whichever way you look at it, it's either a disappointment and annoyance to a LOT of people, or a fairly large theft.

 

Perhaps in your part of the country the police are all working flat out on endless armed robberies, but elsewhere some of them, thankfully, sometimes find time to deal with the sort of minor irritants that are most people's only experience of crime. No-one's saying that a murder enquiry should be put on hold whilst your stolen bike or geocache or whatever is investigated, but when there's the staff available I would like to think that even the most trivial criminal behaviour is given some attention.

 

Otherwise you'd be saying that we should cheerfully tolerate petty vandalism, a bit of light burglary, some shoplifting, thieving, some assaults etc. in the interests of giving the police an easy time...

[+Smurf]

I think we have to re-think the whole concept of geocoins.

 

The first geocoin was released on (as far as i can find out) 20th Sept 2002 (wow - 8th aniversary tomorrow)

and the system seems to have worked quite well during the last 8 years,

(apart from the VERY few people who choose to steal coins)

 

If you feel you can come up with a better system after your 8 weeks of geocaching . . . . . . . . . . .

Edited September 19, 2010 by Smurf

[+trahciul]

I think we have to re-think the whole concept of geocoins.

 

The first geocoin was released on (as far as i can find out) 20th Sept 2002 (wow - 8th aniversary tomorrow)

and the system seems to have worked quite well during the last 8 years,

(apart from the VERY few people who choose to steal coins)

 

If you feel you can come up with a better system after your 8 weeks of geocaching . . . . . . . . . . .

 

If there is no problem why are the police involved?

I believe cachers (in the know) are now placing copy geocoins in caches rather than the original. It would appear that someone is thinking!!

[+trahciul]

Ok. Having read the last post I have to point out a few things that just don't add up.

 

The £1000 you quote is not £1000 from one person but more likely £5 from each individual. That is trivial.

 

So serial theft is trivial???? Not according to the police.

 

The government steals more than £5 from me in tax every time I go shopping!

 

Errrm no. Tax cannot be classed as theft otherwise it would be illegal.

 

It depresses me that police time is being wasted trying to find this person.

 

So the police are asking us to waste their time????

 

I have heard no suggestions from anyone on this list about how to solve the problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the suggestion about reporting it to the police is one suggestion. Since it comes from the police via the UK reviewers it seems pretty much acceptable.

 

Geocaching is in its infancy in this country.

 

Really???? I'm pretty sure it's been going for approx 10 years (maybe 9 ish) in this country. About the same length of time that the hobby has existed. In any case it can by no means be described as in it's infancy.

 

I'm sorry if you take offence to me picking apart your post but the fact that I'm a colossal pedant means I couldn't just let it lie.

 

I think that some taxes the government leves amouts to theft.

Other activities, Chess for example, has had most of its rules ironed out over a long period of time and even more modern things like football, rugby, tennis... (the list is endless!!) change their rules when they find something wrong.

Ten years!! Definately in its infancy.

[+Smurf]

Chess for example, has had most of its rules ironed out over a long period of time and even more modern things like football, rugby, tennis...

 

If you were Playing chess/football/tennis and some oik came along and nicked your king/queen/ball during a game you'd be just as anoyed (maybe more so) as someone discovering that a thief had stolen your cache/coin,

 

Let's not mince words here - we are talking about Theft, Vandalism and destruction of property, ALL these should be reported

[+Smurf]

I think we have to re-think the whole concept of geocoins.

 

The first geocoin was released on (as far as i can find out) 20th Sept 2002 (wow - 8th aniversary tomorrow)

and the system seems to have worked quite well during the last 8 years,

(apart from the VERY few people who choose to steal coins)

 

If you feel you can come up with a better system after your 8 weeks of geocaching . . . . . . . . . . .

 

If there is no problem why are the police involved?

 

Please see the red section.

 

I didnt say there isn't a problem, just a very small number of people who are thieves

[+trahciul]

I think it is time I left this argument as Smurf seems to be losing the place. (is the moderator a bit one sided or is shouting permitted on this list?)

To sum up:

 

I think the original message shoud be un-stuck or un-pinned as it expresses a view I think is wrong and may be detrimental to the activity of geogaching

 

I don't think every stolen, lost or missing item should be reported to the police as I think this will waste police time.

 

It would seem that the geocaching community is unwilling to change its game to make it less easy for someone to steal from items from caches.

 

I think the people who are recommending police action should lighten up a bit and they seem to be taking the game too seriously and this may well fuel resentment against geocaching and cause more vandalism

 

I hope that I have stimulated you to think a bit more about the topic and hope that you will come up with stratagies which will solve the problem (sorry Smurf but I think there is a problem)

[+The Blorenges]

 

To sum up:

 

I think the original message shoud be un-stuck or un-pinned as it expresses a view I think is wrong and may be detrimental to the activity of geogaching

 

That's fine. Everyone can express their opinions in the topic. You personally disagree with what has been stated to a reviewer, by a police officer.

 

I don't think every stolen, lost or missing item should be reported to the police as I think this will waste police time.

 

OK.

 

 

It would seem that the geocaching community is unwilling to change its game to make it less easy for someone to steal from items from caches.

 

The game has been played for over 10 years, the basics remain the same, the caches and styles of hide vary according to the individual players. Nobody has to play - it's a hobby, pastime, outdoor interest - people come and go as their interest flares... or wanes. Those who find the risk of sending out trackable items too great will simply stop doing so (as many have stopped sending out geocoins to travel).

 

I think the people who are recommending police action should lighten up a bit and they seem to be taking the game too seriously and this may well fuel resentment against geocaching and cause more vandalism

 

I hope that I have stimulated you to think a bit more about the topic and hope that you will come up with stratagies which will solve the problem (sorry Smurf but I think there is a problem)

 

Those who've been playing this game for years are well aware of the risks involved, not just in putting out travelling items but also in the various aspects of searching for caches in difficult terrains, and hiding caches in "high muggle areas". Theft of trackable items is just one of many annoyances that can occur when one is a geocacher - Most accept these various 'problems' as a fact of geocaching life and take steps to reduce the risks as far as possible but there is no way to totally solve all 'problems' and still enjoy the haphazard and rather random nature of the whole geocaching concept.

 

As one other cacher has on his signature line

 

"The best thing about geocaching is that anyone can play the game... the worse thing about geocaching is that anyone can play..."

 

C'est la vie.

 

MrsB