Unidentified markers

[+gnbrotz]

I have two markers which I located while looking for benchmarks near Williamsburg, VA. While one may have nothing to do with surveying, the other is indeed a disk, which I am unable to find any data on.

 

They are:

Found at N 37° 13.209 W 76° 41.905

 

and

 

Found at N 37° 13.577 W 76° 41.669

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[sixthings]

there is a disk also labelled Dept of the Interior located on the walking path near the Jefferson Memorial in DC. does anyone know if the Dept. of the Interior has a database of their own? i will attach a photo when i find it.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Yes the Dept. of the Interior is also known as the B.L.M., now the Dept.of Defense.The only way I have recieved their data was to write them.At the Beareau of Land Management in Reston Va.,for the Eastern States and Boulder Colorado for the Western States, You submit the information in the upper right hand corner of your topographic map.That is the Quadrangle # and Long. and Latt.I will see if I can't find the address.

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/index.htm click on BLM facts,The addresses are in the "Directory".

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on March 07, 2003 at 08:27 PM.]

[survey tech]

The Interior Department markers in the eastern part of the country are usually found along the boundary of a National Park. They are far more numerous in the west, where, unlike the east, the vast majority of land remains federal property. Technically, they are cadastral markers, not geodetic markers, and they have no connection to defense, which is an entirely separate department.

[+patw]

That is truly a tantalizing teaser! Could you please explain the difference between a cadastral and a geodetic mark?

 

patrick & shirley

[+beejay&esskay]

I'll let survey tech give the official answer, but a quick Google search gives some information:

 

quote:

---

The term comes from Latin base term Cadastre referring to a registry of lands. So actually Cadastral Surveying is surveying having to do with determining and defining land ownership and boundaries.

---

 

web page

[Z15]

The BLM is part of the Dept of the Interior, not the DoD.

 

I have found marks like that around here. They are set by the NPS resident surveyor or his contract surveyor, for work in the Nat't Forest or Nat'l Park etc. The ones here are GPS control for boudary determination. No public information is usually available.

 

Some around here were set by a private contractor called GLO Retracement Inc.

 

Cadestral involves Land Surveying, e.g. property boundarys

Geodetic involves the study of the earth, lat and long, elevation, crustal motion

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on March 09, 2003 at 09:48 AM.]

[survey tech]

Yes, thats the difference in purpose between geodetic and cadastral. The difference in placement is that cadastral markers, nearly all of which are corners of properties, are placed at a specific location, while geodetic markers are placed at random, wherever they may be most useful. The original reason for the creation of a national database of geodetic points was to facilitate the development of the country through interstate commerce, which is why the NGS is part of the Commerce Department. The Interior Department has a very different mission, the administration of public land. The BLM has jurisdiction over literally millions of points in the 30 public land states, many many times more than all those ever documented to NGS standards for geodetic purposes.

[+patw]

OK, Thanks to all. I thought cadastral might refer to taking bearings by star sightings or some such as opposed to metes-and-boundary procedures, which I now presume is the dominant method for cadastral surveys.

 

patrick & shirley

[+Maps-R-Us]

To PATW and others,

 

quote:

---

I thought cadastral might refer to taking bearings by star sightings or some such as opposed to metes-and-boundary procedures, which I now presume is the dominant method for cadastral surveys.

---

 

survey tech is giving you a lot of good information but to learn more, I would suggest some web resources. First though, a little history! Remember that the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) used to be the General Land Office (GLO) and has always been responsible for the survey of all public lands in this country.

 

There was a law passed, thanks to Thomas Jefferson, known as the 1785 Land Ordinance that called for a public land survey system (PLSS) based on rectangular townships consisting of 36 one square mile sections. It replaced the metes and bounds system used in the Eastern US and is the basis for all surveys in the Western US today. Congress appointed surveyors for each state that worked under the direction of the Geographer of the United States (first was Thomas Hutchins). Surveyors had specific instructions regarding measurements and recording natural features of interest, e.g., minerals, salt licks, mill sites, water courses, etc.

 

Ohio (Northwest Territory) became the proving ground for the system and the Land Act of 1796

changed numbering system of townships to east to west and then west to east, the system still in use. Subsequent legislation established sections as 640 acres. The Act of July 4, 1836 placed the responsibility for surveys with the General Land Office (GLO) where it remained until 1946 when the Bureau of Land Management was established.

Today, the Bureau of Land Management has the responsibility for cadastral surveying of federal and tribal lands. Instructions are set out in a continual series of Survey Manuals. Currently, the 1973 manual is the standard.

 

The PLSS provided a straightforward method for cadastral surveying and land identification for millions of settlers and avoided many of the disputes inherent to metes and bounds systems. The appeal of land was a strong attraction to immigrants and others and the PLSS provided the method to divide the public domain (over 3,000,000 square miles). In the interest of westward expansion, the US Congress also passed a number of laws to promote settlement and commerce in the western US. The Homestead Act, Railroad Land Grants, etc. all depended on surveyed land.

 

Now the links for more reading:

 

Oregon/Washington BLM cadastral survey web page should be a good start since you live in Portland.

 

BLM's interactive map for land data

 

Our archived Carto Cache had good information and was located at the beginning point of all surveys in the NW, the WIllamette Stone.

 

Sorry about the long post! Hope this helps and happy hunting for caches, benchmarks and all the brass caps or survey markers that are out there all over the US!

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Ok if the Public Lands Survey that began at the Stone in Arkansas,EH2910, http://www.lapurchase.org ,reset in 1926,(Monumented)1965 CGS, Coast and Geodetic Survey,is not Land and Geodetic,then you have confused me.They are all the same just more precise orders,IE,Astronamical observations,instead of magnetic,covergence corrections from the magnetic to true north,now earth centered.???

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[Z15]

You are mixing apples and oranges

 

CGS did not set that mark, if you read the description

quote:

---

EH2910'THIS STONE MARKS THE BASE ESTABLISHED NOV. 10 1815 FROM WHICH

EH2910'THE LANDS OF THE LOUISIANA PURCHASE WERE SURVEYED BY THE

EH2910'UNITED STATES ENGINEERS. THE FIRST SURVEY FROM THIS POINT WAS

EH2910'MADE TO SATISFY THE CLAIM OF THE SOLDIERS OF THE WAR OF 1812

EH2910'WITH LAND BOUNTIES. ERECTED BY THE ARKANSAS DAUGHTERS OF THE

EH2910'AMERICAN REVOLUTION. SPONSORED BY THE LANGUILLE CHAPTER.

---

 

CGS just put a geographical position to the mark and that what they mean by monumented 1965.

 

Maybe you want to start a new career?

 

Here is a LINK to Survey info sites

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on March 09, 2003 at 06:50 PM.]

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

By placing these coordinates,Longitude,Latitude,and Elevation (Geodetic) which are the basis for all the Public Lands(Cadastral) of the 12 states mentioned.Thomas Jefferson and all the Scientists of the Time agreed to Use the Starting point of the O-Meridian, Greenwhich.Zero hour.If you look at all the USGS Surveys they all mention Township Section and Range. X number of feet from the S.W. corner of Section such and such,at the fence corners,in the center of the roads,ect,ect,.The Changes from the Original Magnetic to True Bearings and now to Earth Centered has been the major changes in surveying which is the topic of and study of Deflect99,deflection of the Vertical, and Geoid99 Trilateration of a Three point problem.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[survey tech]

For those who are interested, theres a lot to learn, and its all really pretty engrossing once you tackle it. The ACSM is the foremost authority on the subject and their manual of defintions includes for example:

 

23 definitions of "station"

39 definitions of "angle"

42 definitions of "line"

44 definitions of "survey"

51 definitions of "map"

 

So theres always plenty of room for confusion. My fellow elitists and other technical mavens may want to visit www.acsm.net to check it all out for themselves.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

www.ngs.noaa.gov/GEOID/GEOID99

www.ngs.noaa.gov/GEOID/GEOID96

http://srtm.usgs.gov You are right there is a lot to learn out there. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/archives/sts-99/index.html WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on March 09, 2003 at 09:15 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on March 09, 2003 at 09:19 PM.]

[+happycycler]

JC1722 (Designation: T45N R2E SEC 36 NW COR) might add a bit more confusion into this discussion

 

Unfortunately I doubt that I could get permission to try to find it. JC1721 in that area sounds difficult for an amature like me to get too & JC1722 is not near any mapped road plus most likely also on private land.

[survey tech]

JC1721 has a very thorough description and I would think it might not be too hard to reach, given permission to enter the property. I guess it must be the name of JC1722 that is causing you confusion. Its a point that was originally set as a section corner and later picked for geodetic use, probably because it occupies an especially valuable spot with good visibility. The name tells you its the northwest corner of section 36 in that particular township. Note that its description says its north-northeast of JC1721, which agrees with the data in that description, where it says that JC1721 is in the northeast quarter of section 35, which always lies directly west of section 36. In fact, the azimuth between the two is also given in the data, 24 degrees 50 minutes east of north, so it should be fairly easy to visualize the relationship of the two points on the ground.

[+happycycler]

Thank you survey tech.

 

I just found it interesting that the old section corner marker is also used as a benchmark. It would be a nice area for a hike, but it would be necessary to secure permission. Rogbarn and I did some benchmarking in that general area on Sunday but we did not attempt to find owners to get permission to try for those.

 

A Tavern Rock or a Tavern Cave may be mentioned in the Lewis and Clark journals. There was a historical marker in St. Albins to that effect. So some history may be involved.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Great!!! I am Launching a Travel Bug,Lewis and Clark From the Stone,along with others at the The Stone Event on 3/22/2003 GCD28A. www.lapurchase.org This Started With the Gathering Event March 1,2003.And have many other things in the works about all this that we have been discussing.It all Began 1803 With the Louisiana Purchase,and the subsequent Surveys of the Public Lands (PLSS).These are the things that I have been hinting at in some of my early posts about the Public Lands,Surveying,Ect...

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails