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Destroyed benchmarks: Found/Not Found


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If a benchmark is noted by the NGS as "destroyed," and I hunt for it and find where it used to be, do I count it as a not found (because I didn't find the marker), as a found (I ''found'' the coordinates, and there was nothing there -- like a virtual cache), or as a note?

 

This benchmark is an example of what I'm asking.

 

"If a boy has enough intelligence, he ought to go into the ministry, except that if when he enters college he is given to carousing, drinking, and wenching, then in that case he should enter the law." - Harvard Student Review, 1796

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quote:
Originally posted by travisl:

If a benchmark is noted by the NGS as "destroyed," and I hunt for it and find where it used to be, do I count it as a not found (because I didn't find the marker), as a found (I ''found'' the coordinates, and there was nothing there


My opinion would be that you would mark this with a note. Here's how I would classify found, not found, and note:

 

Found: Went looking for an "active" benchmark and found the actual mark.

 

Not Found: Went looking for an "active" benchmark, but didn't find it.

 

Note: Everything else, e.g: Went looking for a missing or destroyed benchmark, didn't find it, but enjoyed the journey. icon_smile.gif

 

-Elias

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quote:
Originally posted by travisl:

If a benchmark is noted by the NGS as "destroyed," and I hunt for it and find where it used to be, do I count it as a not found (because I didn't find the marker), as a found (I ''found'' the coordinates, and there was nothing there


My opinion would be that you would mark this with a note. Here's how I would classify found, not found, and note:

 

Found: Went looking for an "active" benchmark and found the actual mark.

 

Not Found: Went looking for an "active" benchmark, but didn't find it.

 

Note: Everything else, e.g: Went looking for a missing or destroyed benchmark, didn't find it, but enjoyed the journey. icon_smile.gif

 

-Elias

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How would you mark a find if the benchmark is noted as active, but is no longer there. I have a few of those around me. This is different than if the benchmark is noted as no longer there.

 

I never get lost!

I simply investigate alternate destinations!

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I have went looking for a few destroy/missing marks in the past. One was a daymarker. I was able to fine the remnants of the old marker (a bracket and rusted post) and could identify it as such to my satisfaction. I would log this as a find and note its condition. I have looked for others that were totally gone. These I would log as a no-find, and note the results.

 

2573_200.jpg

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Yesterday, I found a steel rod type marker where the witness post and access cover were in good shape, but the steel rod was gone. I logged it as a find with no hesitation. Unlike caches, I think finding the place where it should be counts as a find. If you find the depression that a benchmark disc should be in but not the disc, that should count as a find. Basically, if you can recover it to NGS standards, it should count as a find. If you can't find the marker, access cover, or whatever the mark is set in, then it is a not found.

 

rdw

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quote:
Originally posted by rdw:

Yesterday, I found a steel rod type marker where the witness post and access cover were in good shape, but the steel rod was gone. I logged it as a find with no hesitation. Unlike caches, I think finding the place where it should be counts as a find. If you find the depression that a benchmark disc should be in but not the disc, that should count as a find. Basically, if you can recover it to NGS standards, it should count as a find. If you can't find the marker, access cover, or whatever the mark is set in, then it is a not found.

 

rdw


 

I located one of two reference disks but the other reference and the main marker had been plundered. I found where the main marker had been chipped out of its concrete base. That is a Not Found in my book. -WR

 

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

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Here is the NGS official position

 

Mike

 

 

Note: For destroyed marks do one of the following:

1) If you found the actual marker separated from its setting, you may report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov); if you send this email please do not submit the current form; instead Deb will submit the report for you. In addition, please submit proof of the mark's destruction via actual disk, rubbing, photo or digital picture (preferred) to Deb Brown. Deb Brown's mailing address is as follows:

Deb Brown, N/NGS143

National Geodetic Survey, NOAA

1315 East West Highway, #8400

Silver Spring, MD 20910

2) If you did not find the actual marker, then you should enter notes concerning evidence of its possible destruction as text records and select "Not recovered, not found" as the condition of mark.

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The description of a Benchmark near me has a note from the USGS that says it's destroyed. Then there are 2 entries that list it as found!

 

Even worse, the description of the location is 3 miles from where the coordinates indicate. I checked both places, coordinates and description, and found where I believe the plaque should be based on the description. There was no plaque there so I called it a 'not found' and made a log entry.

 

It really makes me wonder about those 2 entries that list it as found in good condition. I wonder what they found.

 

I'm not lost!

I just don't know where I am.

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"recovered" = found in existence at that time

"reclaimed" = found damaged or destroyed, and removed

"reset" = not found, presumed destroyed, and a new marker was set, either in the same location or nearby

 

Often, when a Triangulation Station is destroyed, one of its reference markers is designated as its replacement.

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I recently sent the requested data to Deb Brown for the Red Hill Tower mark. The official datasheet at NGS is now marked destroyed. So you don't have to be a surveyor or engineer if you rdata is good.

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As a licensed surveyor I can tell you that evidence is of the utmost importance in deciding if a corner is obliterated or merely lost. An obliterated monument leaves no trace as to it's original location. If a monument is "lost" there is enough evidence to ascertain it's original location. A drill hole in a rock, or other verifiable evidence of a missing monument should count as a find. Due to the perceived accuracy of our GPS receivers, we tend to give a lot of credence to coordinates. However, coordinates fall far down the list of controlling evidence. "Benchmark" hunting is fun, but to count missing monuments as a find, some hard and fast rules of surveying need to be adhered to. Topo calls to verifiable landmarks outweigh coordinates and measurements. Afterall, anyone reading a chain could mess up, but the "rocky crag" isn't going to move.

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I'm confused as to whether we are talking about found/not found on the geocaching website or the NGS website. My thoughts on the standards for the geocaching website are in an earlier post to this thread. For the NGS website, the standards are different. I have never seen a good description of what is considered good, poor, destroyed, not found, mutilated, etc. For this reason, I report only marks that clearly fall into one category or another, usually good or destroyed. If I'm not sure, I don't report it. I found one marker, a metal rod with access cover, where the rod was gone. That I reported to Deb Brown as destroyed. My report was accepted and the datasheet is no longer displayed. Another station I reported as destroyed. It was a municpal water tower that had been torn down. Only the concrete footings remained. There are many benchmark discs that I have looked for but not found. These were NOT reported missing/destroyed/etc because I did't feel my search was thorough enough. The search was GPS based because I'm not good at estimating "7 rails east of the east curb of 17th street and 27 ft south of the south rail of the southernmost track" when the tracks are no longer there. Maybe if I had a big tape measure, I would be more confident that I was checking the right place. But I don't so I'm not.

 

As for finding "missing" marks, been there done that. I found one in 2001 that was reported missing in the early 80's by the USGS. It was sitting in the front lawn of city hall where it had been since 1935. Why did they miss it? There coordinates were off. By a quarter or half mile. Weird thing was, the BM was located in the right place on the topo map. Gotta read those despcriptions. They may be outdated, but they're usually right.

 

rdw

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quote:
1) If you found the actual marker separated from its setting, you may report the point as destroyed. To do so please send the report on the destroyed mark as an email to Deb Brown (Deb.Brown@noaa.gov); if you send this email please do not submit the current form; instead Deb will submit the report for you. In addition, please submit proof of the mark's destruction via actual disk, rubbing, photo or digital picture (preferred) to Deb Brown. Deb Brown's mailing address is as follows:

Deb Brown, N/NGS143

National Geodetic Survey, NOAA

1315 East West Highway, #8400

Silver Spring, MD 20910


 

Just an FYI - I had some correspondence with Ms. Brown a few years ago regarding "destroyed" benchmarks. I found a marker monument (the concrete base) which was obviously not where it had been originally. I sent her pics and she confirmed it to be destroyed. I asked where I should send the disk. Her response was "keep it". Hence, if you locate a becnhmark which is obviously destroyed (and confirmed by NOAA), but the disk is found, you can keep it.

 

Of course this does not mean you can willfully destroy one just for the disk - it still carries a hefty fine if caught disturbing one.

 

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An engineering/surveying firm received a report from one of their field crews that they had found a monument (brass disk with identification numbers, set in concrete) on a bridge. The position for the monument in the records was miles off from the position determined by the survey crew using survey grade GPS. It turned out that the bridge had been removed from its original position and recycled to a different creek crossing!!! One would think that the county would have notified the state highway department or other agency having juridiction. At any rate, the monument should have been removed and sent to the agency which had set it. icon_mad.gif

 

Forest Engineer, PLS, WA & OR (retired) icon_cool.gif

 

Kaneloa[8D]("Tall Man")

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An engineering/surveying firm received a report from one of their field crews that they had found a monument (brass disk with identification numbers, set in concrete) on a bridge. The position for the monument in the records was miles off from the position determined by the survey crew using survey grade GPS. It turned out that the bridge had been removed from its original position and recycled to a different creek crossing!!! One would think that the county would have notified the state highway department or other agency having juridiction. At any rate, the monument should have been removed and sent to the agency which had set it. icon_mad.gif

 

Forest Engineer, PLS, WA & OR (retired) icon_cool.gif

 

Kaneloa[8D]("Tall Man")

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> Currently we do not have funding for mark maintenance so there is no

> ongoing program for replacing destroyed stations. If this mark becomes

> "destroyed" all we need is a digital photo of the station along with the

> PID and designation and I can submit a destroyed report. Feel free to

> keep the mark. If you are interested in resetting this station, please

> contact Richard Cohen at FOSSILGPS@AOL.COM He will provide information

> on the procedures.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Deb Brown

 

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