cache approval?

[geezfools]

So I noticed a few caches pop up last night and I'm not doing anything, so why not go out and get a few FTF's and spend an evening in my car listening to music. I get to the first one, pretty simple, but I'm STF. Get to the second one, not sure if the coords were off or not, but I eventually find this micro and log a FTF. Get to the third one with a one star rating. The GPS is putting me into someone back yard and google maps and yahoo maps are doing the same thing. I spent 45 minutes looking all over the place for that one. Am I crazy to think that no one looked to see where this cache was before approving it. I mean, I'm not gonna super pissed that I didn't get a FTF and I'm not gonna let myself turn into a guy fighting for them, but when I drive 25 minutes, spend gas and the coords are 32 feet off(they've been updated this morning) it's super frustrating. I just wanted to vent about it and I'm sure it's been mentioned a thousand times. I'm under 50 finds still, but what's gonna be the fun of heading out for a FTF if you can't even actually find it...

 

The cache in mind was GC1XKA9 and I only mention this because checking out the cache via google maps would have easily made a person see this was in someones backyard and wouldn't have been approved. Not sure why I put it in the NW forum, but figured the reviewer might see it and feel bad for me and dry my tears, haha.

 

/vent

/rant

Edited August 23, 2009 by geezfools

[+Allanon]

First, everyone makes mistakes. I'm sure the hider of the 3rd cache didn't do it on purpose. If when checking this cache the reviewer didn't find another cache within .1 miles of the location, it wasn't in a protected area, and a few other basics, I doubt much more was checked.

 

Second, NEVER trust Google Maps...but assuming you did and checked the cache page and Google maps prior to going out, why did you go to this one if it was shown in someone's back yard?

 

Third, if you play the FTF game, you will sometimes be burned. It's one of the reasons I don't play that game. Let others verify it for me, then I'll go.

[Team Misguided]

One of the most common misconceptions in the cache review process is that the Reviewers actually visit the cache location prior to publishing. There is no way we could physically visit all cache locations prior to publishing the cache. We have to rely on the cache page and online maps. We check the cache for proximity and general guideline compliance. If everything looks okay then we publish.

[geezfools]

I didnt think reviewers visited each cache prior to approval, that would be nuts, lol.

Also, there were three new caches within a certain range of my house, so I was going to try all three. If it had been just that one, I wouldn't have gone out after it.

 

I guess I thought there was a more thorough check of each cache before it was approved. From what I've seen, it's such a big deal to do this and that, that I thought a quick check of google maps or something might have been included in the review process, but it's understandable that it wouldn't be as you really can't trust it. I don't have a fancy pants GPS device yet, so I have to rely on my iPhone and other tools(apps and web) to help me finds caches, which has worked out well for me and if the cache has good coords, I rarely have any DNF.s

 

By the way, both of the caches that person hid were off, one by 32 feet and the other by 8 feet.

 

But like you said, if I'm gonan play the game, gotta figure it's not gonna work out every time, just kind of a bummer when people don't taking hiding seriously.

[+uxorious]

Third, if you play the FTF game, you will sometimes be burned. It's one of the reasons I don't play that game. Let others verify it for me, then I'll go.

 

exactly!

 

This is one downside of the FTF race, you have to expect a few caches that a mistake was made on. If this bothers you, you really shouldn't be in the FTF race.

 

Personally I prefer to wait until it has a couple finds before I look for it.

[+Rose-Hulman]

 

By the way, both of the caches that person hid were off, one by 32 feet and the other by 8 feet.

 

 

Umm, 8 feet is well within the accuracy of your iPhone, I wouldn't even consider 32 feet to be very far out, depending on the geography of the area.

[geezfools]

 

By the way, both of the caches that person hid were off, one by 32 feet and the other by 8 feet.

 

 

Umm, 8 feet is well within the accuracy of your iPhone, I wouldn't even consider 32 feet to be very far out, depending on the geography of the area.

 

Not sure if it's just my iPhone, but I get great reception and if there aren't a ton of trees, it's basically spot on. I went out to a spot a couple days ago and ran into another cacher(frisbee'r) and his 60Csx and my iPhone were pinpointing a cache in pretty much the same location(which ended up being bad coords).

The 8 foot one I found after 15 minutes or so, the 32 feet one, well, I never found it. I don't think the accuracy of my phone had anything to do with me not finding the one that was off by 32 feet. If the coords were correct in the first place, the cache would have been found, especially a single star difficulty.

 

My original question was how things like this slip by. Now, I realize things do slip by, so no harm done. I figured it didn't happen this often, so two caches that were off by 30+ feet in three days got me wondering if attempting FTF's is even worth it at this point. Guess I'll look at the people who are doing the hiding and people with less than 100 or so finds probably aren't doing as much homework as say a person with 8000+ finds like frisbee'r.

Sorry if I offended anyone as that wasn't my intention. Like I said, I'm new so I had different ideas of what might happen and what actually does. I've had a ton of fun so far and already met a few very nice people. Guess I need to learn the ropes a little more before questioning things...

[+webscouter.]

 

By the way, both of the caches that person hid were off, one by 32 feet and the other by 8 feet.

 

 

Umm, 8 feet is well within the accuracy of your iPhone, I wouldn't even consider 32 feet to be very far out, depending on the geography of the area.

 

Not sure if it's just my iPhone, but I get great reception and if there aren't a ton of trees, it's basically spot on. I went out to a spot a couple days ago and ran into another cacher(frisbee'r) and his 60Csx and my iPhone were pinpointing a cache in pretty much the same location(which ended up being bad coords).

The 8 foot one I found after 15 minutes or so, the 32 feet one, well, I never found it. I don't think the accuracy of my phone had anything to do with me not finding the one that was off by 32 feet. If the coords were correct in the first place, the cache would have been found, especially a single star difficulty.

 

My original question was how things like this slip by. Now, I realize things do slip by, so no harm done. I figured it didn't happen this often, so two caches that were off by 30+ feet in three days got me wondering if attempting FTF's is even worth it at this point. Guess I'll look at the people who are doing the hiding and people with less than 100 or so finds probably aren't doing as much homework as say a person with 8000+ finds like frisbee'r.

Sorry if I offended anyone as that wasn't my intention. Like I said, I'm new so I had different ideas of what might happen and what actually does. I've had a ton of fun so far and already met a few very nice people. Guess I need to learn the ropes a little more before questioning things...

 

Like others have said a cache that has it's coords off by 32 feet isn't really unusual, even by cachers that have been around for a long time. At the best of times 18 feet is respectable, with multipath and bad satellite alignment 32 feet is well within the norm.

 

Since the cache approver only looks at maps it is entirely probable that a cache will be off by 32 feet and still meet the guidelines. For instance the cache says it is inside "Grant" park. Even if it is 50 feet away from the published coordinates it can still be inside "Grant" park.

 

As far as the cache being on private property it is common for caches to be hidden in the cache owners front or back yard, as such this would not necessarily be a red flag for the cache reviewer.

[geezfools]

I knew this cache wasn't in the backyard by the description the hider left and I never had any issue with it being back there, it was just brought up since the coords showed it being back there, which the description said otherwise.

 

bottom line.

 

From all the forum posts and guidelines I've read since starting geocaching, I thought there was a bit of interest/pride in having legit coordinates and apparently that was a bad assumption on my part.

Edited August 23, 2009 by geezfools

[+Allanon]

I thought there was a bit of interest/pride in having legit coordinates and apparently that was a bad assumption on my part.

As I stated in my previous post, everyone makes mistakes...it happens. Get over it or get another hobby.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Allanon

[+Team Noltex]

From all the forum posts and guidelines I've read since starting geocaching, I thought there was a bit of interest/pride in having legit coordinates and apparently that was a bad assumption on my part.

 

Perhaps you have a bit of a misunderstanding about just how accurate most available GPS's are. When they make the claim of being accurate to within 10 ft/3 m, that is under the best of conditions. So let's say your GPS has a position error of 10 ft when you place your cache, meaning a circle with a 20 ft diameter. You post the coords and I go to find it. Now my GPS also has a position error of 10 ft , which means I could expect to add an additional 10 ft of distance from the cache. Now add in all of the things that typically increase the position error, such as number of satellites, satellite geometry, tree cover, topography and structures, and you can very easily zero out at a position 30, 40, even 50 ft away from where the cache actually is, sometimes more.

 

Most GPS's have a readout for Estimated Position Error (EPE). How high or low the number is gives you an indication of how accurate your GPS happens to be at a given moment, under the current factors that are affecting the sat reception. If I have a high EPE, I know that I need to expand my search area. A low number tells me I'm probably pretty close, assuming that the hider also had a reasonably low EPE when he placed the cache.

 

Most experienced cachers know that a GPS won't take you to the exact location of the cache. Just because it read's 0 feet, I can't expect to look down and find the cache. The GPS is used to find the general location (within 30-40 feet) and the rest is up to you. Expecting the GPS to do more than that for you will only lead to disapointment. And wasted time and gas.

 

All that being said, I don't think that an iPhone was ever meant to have the kind of accuracy equal to a dedicated GPS. I think you'll be much happier and get more out of geocaching if you invest in one.

[geezfools]

Sorry for stepping on toes, I'm new and I had misconceptions about a ton of things I guess. I had read things about ways to get the best results possible and was curious about the review process and if this happened often. My questions were answered, thanks for your help...

 

Here is a link I had bookmarked, I assumed this was standard for hiding a cache, guess not: http://www.factsfacts.com/geocachingsoft/A...Coordinates.htm

Edited August 24, 2009 by geezfools

[+Dgwphotos]

Sorry for stepping on toes, I'm new and I had misconceptions about a ton of things I guess. I had read things about ways to get the best results possible and was curious about the review process and if this happened often. My questions were answered, thanks for your help...

 

Here is a link I had bookmarked, I assumed this was standard for hiding a cache, guess not: http://www.factsfacts.com/geocachingsoft/A...Coordinates.htm

 

Hmm, that looks like a useful utility.

[+TotemLake]

Sorry for stepping on toes, I'm new and I had misconceptions about a ton of things I guess. I had read things about ways to get the best results possible and was curious about the review process and if this happened often. My questions were answered, thanks for your help...

 

Here is a link I had bookmarked, I assumed this was standard for hiding a cache, guess not: http://www.factsfacts.com/geocachingsoft/A...Coordinates.htm

No worries. This sport is no different from others. You have folks of all types playing. Some folks are not as meticulous as others about their coordinates. You have to take each with a grain of salt and over time, learn who puts out good coordinates and who doesn't. You learn not to chase the sloppy jobbers just as you learn who not to play baseball with.

[+Rose-Hulman]

Sorry for stepping on toes, I'm new and I had misconceptions about a ton of things I guess. I had read things about ways to get the best results possible and was curious about the review process and if this happened often. My questions were answered, thanks for your help...

 

Here is a link I had bookmarked, I assumed this was standard for hiding a cache, guess not: http://www.factsfacts.com/geocachingsoft/A...Coordinates.htm

 

Good tutorial for Magellan units. On Delorme units and I believe on Garmin (someone feel free to correct m ehere) you have to tell the unit to average.

[+WRASTRO]

Sorry for stepping on toes, I'm new and I had misconceptions about a ton of things I guess. I had read things about ways to get the best results possible and was curious about the review process and if this happened often. My questions were answered, thanks for your help...

 

Here is a link I had bookmarked, I assumed this was standard for hiding a cache, guess not: http://www.factsfacts.com/geocachingsoft/A...Coordinates.htm

No worries. This sport is no different from others. You have folks of all types playing. Some folks are not as meticulous as others about their coordinates. You have to take each with a grain of salt and over time, learn who puts out good coordinates and who doesn't. You learn not to chase the sloppy jobbers just as you learn who not to play baseball with.

 

You may also notice that some cachers feel compelled to post coordinates when they find a cache regardless of how many previous finders have noted no problems.

 

 

Despite the hider's best efforts the coordinates may appear to be off at any given moment in time.

 

 

This is not meant to disagree in any way with TL's comments. Just a small additional thought.

[+Lightning Jeff]

I thought there was a bit of interest/pride in having legit coordinates and apparently that was a bad assumption on my part.

As I stated in my previous post, everyone makes mistakes...it happens. Get over it or get another hobby.

Hmm.... I'm hesitant to reply, as this is a couple of days old now, but I guess I'll go ahead and throw myself under the dogpile... This remark seems unnecessarily harsh in light of the good faith reason the OP brought the issue up. I think there is an important and real issue here, that being the degree of vigilance with which we as a community (not just reviewers, though they of course have the initial crack at it) are policing ourselves. The cache in question here was not in fact in someone's back yard, but I do regularly see caches published that clearly are on private property, without any indication of permission. That leads to conflicts that can give the game a very bad name. And, that's not much diminished when it's just a case of bad coordinates - if the cache "looks like" it's on private property, some people will attempt to go there for it. I think it threatens our activity to take the blithe position that, well, sometimes "stuff" just happens. At some point that "stuff" could lead to greater regulation if we can't do that job ourselves.

 

OP here did the right thing by posting a DNF log (hey, not everybody does that!) that brought the issue to the CO's attention. I say, kudos!

[+TotemLake]

 

This is not meant to disagree in any way with TL's comments. Just a small additional thought.

It's a good segue and not contradictory to my post. GPS recievers being what they are, there is a fudge factor that's involved in accuracy in any given day which can effect the actual hide by around 50ish feet. I have one such cache which have people wandering an easy 80 feet away in spite of all the readings and averagings I took for it over the years. I've gone as far as 100 feet away from the coordinates (rare for me as I usually spend only 15 minutes on a hunt) given the particular area has a crazy effect on the GPS reception.

 

Now, if you reliably discover the coordinates are a coupla hundred feet off...