Are library caches acceptable?

[+Castle Mischief]

...does there have to be a cover on the logbook at all or can you just staple papers together. Do you need the staple?

 

Obviously a thin strip of paper rolled up counts as a logbook (nano cache) or we'd have a bunch of caches that don't meet that guideline. Containers are the same way - there is some interpretation as to what counts as one. A ziploc baggie? Nope. A thin magnet with a sticker attached for a log? Yep.

 

See, funny thing is that I recall a reviewer on these forums saying that the magnetic strip that you sign is specifically not in sync with the current guidelines.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

...does there have to be a cover on the logbook at all or can you just staple papers together. Do you need the staple?

 

Obviously a thin strip of paper rolled up counts as a logbook (nano cache) or we'd have a bunch of caches that don't meet that guideline. Containers are the same way - there is some interpretation as to what counts as one. A ziploc baggie? Nope. A thin magnet with a sticker attached for a log? Yep.

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

 

A hidden room in a cave where you sign your own pictograph to the wall meets the spirit and intent of caching. There is something to find, and a way to sign.

 

The guidelines about containers and logs aren't there to keep you from being creative or for rules attorneys to beat down good caches that meet the spirt of this activity. They serve as guideline to help folks meet that spirit and intent. Lets they confuse the ability to print out a recpept at wall mart as a cache. (however you can use that same reciept as a log book).

[+sbell111]

use of a GPS was an integral part of the hunt

 

This has come up before in a discussion on Letterbox Hybrids and the statement from a reviewer was to the effect of "coordinates to a parking lot followed by hints/directions to the final do not constitute integral part of the hunt".

 

Depending on the reviewer, you might not be able to have coords to the outside of the library and then clues/hints/directions to the inside.

 

 

I'm paraphrasing and I and others asked for an explanation, but never got it.

 

I'm looking for the exact thread now and the exact quote from the reviewer.

If the cache page makes it clear that you are looking for a cache in the local library, then coordinates to a parking place and clues into the building are not going to be good enough. However, if that is not the case, you should be fine with coordinates to some place outside the library and clues that bring you into it.

[+Prime Suspect]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

[+tozainamboku]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

I tend to like RKs analysis better because I can understand the rationale that a cache has to be an object you can touch and say that it is the cache and that a log has to be there so you can sign your name or leave some kind of mark to verify you found the cache. The reviewers (perhaps with Groundspeak's guidance) may wish to define a container as 1) something other than the log, and/or 2) something which has an "inside" and the log is placed "inside" of the container. Since the rationale for this interpretation is secret outside of the reviewers' forum, it appears arbitrary and made up just so reviewers have an excuse to reject what would otherwise be reasonable caches. If a reviewer or Groundspeak lackey can present a rationale for the stricter interpretation of "container" that might help us understand what can or cannot be accepted as a geocache.

[+Knight2000]

I love 'em. The interesting thing is that these have no moisture issues.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2009 by Knight2000

[+Knight2000]

I am wondering why anyone would say that a cache like this may have a hard time getting approved.

 

A Reviewer I'm not, but I am quite the Letterbox-Hybrid enthusiast. As far as the guidelines, CacheDrone, and myself are concerned, simply providing starting co-ords does not satisfy the need for GPS usage.

 

I have a Library cache, and it's pretty simple - I just gave co-ords for the Library's back door and said that all you need is the cache name (which happens to be the call number). CacheDrone (obviously approved this, but some of the pickier reviewers would argue that although the cache has a log, it lacks a container... I don't necessarily agree with this, but it's certainly something to consider.

Ummm. Your statements seem to contradict each other.

 

See, funny thing is that I recall a reviewer on these forums saying that the magnetic strip that you sign is specifically not in sync with the current guidelines.

That is true, but... If you include a paper strip attached to the back of the magnet then it is within the guidelines.

 

If the cache is the log book the library is the container. (Problem solved for nit pickers.)

[+tozainamboku]

If the cache is the log book the library is the container. (Problem solved for nit pickers.)

My first thought was then you should list it as large. My second thought was if this were true then you could just list coordinates for the library. "Well gee, I found the cache. Now I just have to go through all the swag in it to find the log to sign"

[+Taoiseach]

A Reviewer I'm not, but I am quite the Letterbox-Hybrid enthusiast. As far as the guidelines, CacheDrone, and myself are concerned, simply providing starting co-ords does not satisfy the need for GPS usage.

 

I have a Library cache, and it's pretty simple - I just gave co-ords for the Library's back door and said that all you need is the cache name (which happens to be the call number). CacheDrone (obviously approved this, but some of the pickier reviewers would argue that although the cache has a log, it lacks a container... I don't necessarily agree with this, but it's certainly something to consider.

Ummm. Your statements seem to contradict each other.

 

Yes they do, don't they? Here, I'll try to clear it up.

 

The first example is for a Letterbox-Hybrid. For the LBH type, the starting co-ords and clues thereafter are not enough, unless there is further GPS usage.

 

For a Library cache, as a couple of people mentioned, as long as you don't mention that it's in the library, the posted co-ords outside (as opposed to clues) are the primary means of finding the cache

 

It's a fine line, but it has to do with ensuring that the cache is not entirely clue-based. If I put the posted co-ords in the middle of the River, said 'Go To the Windsor Public Library (even if I didn't say which branch), and use this seemingly random number to find the cache, it wouldn't be a cache, but rather a Letterbox (and not even a hybrid!). By giving you co-ords that put you in the right place, there technically is required GPS usage.

 

On the other side of the coin, Putting the posted co-ords for my Rideau Canal Bridges Letterbox, there isn't the required GPS usage there, as you would find the whole thing by letterboxing, were it not for the projection...

[+mndvs737]

Here's an idea I have for a library cache that would be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle: posted coordinates would take you to a tree in the parking lot containing a pill fob -- inside the pill fob is the projection to the front door of the library (260 feet at 134 degrees, say), and the call number of the cache -- I have some container ideas that would allow for swag. I would pick a tree across the parking lot, or on a shared barrier with another building in the complex -- not one right outside the door. So, you have to use GPS to find the container that gives you the info to find the container with the log, and there is another use of the GPS to get you from there to the front door. Nothing on the cache page would give away any of the info regarding the location of the container and logbook inside the library -- it would have to be obtained by finding the pill fob.

 

A good friend of ours is the children's librarian, so I'm hoping she can help me with permission.

 

Would something like this meet the "GPS is an integral part of the hunt" requirement?

 

I'm also going to call it "Butterfly in the Sky".

[+sbell111]

Here's an idea I have for a library cache that would be listed as a Mystery/Puzzle: posted coordinates would take you to a tree in the parking lot containing a pill fob -- inside the pill fob is the projection to the front door of the library (260 feet at 134 degrees, say), and the call number of the cache -- I have some container ideas that would allow for swag. I would pick a tree across the parking lot, or on a shared barrier with another building in the complex -- not one right outside the door. So, you have to use GPS to find the container that gives you the info to find the container with the log, and there is another use of the GPS to get you from there to the front door. Nothing on the cache page would give away any of the info regarding the location of the container and logbook inside the library -- it would have to be obtained by finding the pill fob.

 

A good friend of ours is the children's librarian, so I'm hoping she can help me with permission.

 

Would something like this meet the "GPS is an integral part of the hunt" requirement?

 

I'm also going to call it "Butterfly in the Sky".

Yes. The proposed cache would, in fact, be virtually impossible to find without the coords.

[+Renegade Knight]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape on asphalt was approved as meeting the minimum definition of a cache. The tape had a strip of paper on the back to sign while the tape itself was the camo.

 

What's the nuance that makes the two different? Or is there one beyond approver opinion?

[+Prime Suspect]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape on asphalt was approved as meeting the minimum definition of a cache. The tape had a strip of paper on the back to sign while the tape itself was the camo.

 

What's the nuance that makes the two different? Or is there one beyond approver opinion?

And the reviewer knew the nature of the log?

[+Knight2000]

I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape on asphalt was approved as meeting the minimum definition of a cache. The tape had a strip of paper on the back to sign while the tape itself was the camo.

 

What's the nuance that makes the two different? Or is there one beyond approver opinion?

And the reviewer knew the nature of the log?

This has been discussed before on here and I'm pretty sure a reviewer, which will remain nameless, said it is within guidelines if the log is not the container. If a strip of paper was attached to the inside of an ammo can it would not be acceptable? The paper log on a strip of tape or flat magnetic sheet is no different.

 

We have found two [library caches] and are working on placing two. Both are mag key holders with a Dewey inside them. They are puzzles.

[+Renegade Knight]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape on asphalt was approved as meeting the minimum definition of a cache. The tape had a strip of paper on the back to sign while the tape itself was the camo.

 

What's the nuance that makes the two different? Or is there one beyond approver opinion?

And the reviewer knew the nature of the log?

 

Yes. They had questions before they approved the cache.

[+Prime Suspect]

 

All you need for a log book is a space to sign. All you need for a conatiner is something you can touch to say "yes this is the cache"

Nope. I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape (which you can sign, and which you can touch) on a guardrail, was turned down as not meeting the minimum definition of a container. The tape was not in any way "contained" by anything, so no container.

I know of a specific instance where a strip of tape on asphalt was approved as meeting the minimum definition of a cache. The tape had a strip of paper on the back to sign while the tape itself was the camo.

 

What's the nuance that makes the two different? Or is there one beyond approver opinion?

And the reviewer knew the nature of the log?

 

Yes. They had questions before they approved the cache.

 

You're probably using "back" to reference the adhesive side of the tape. In that case, it would be allowed, as the log is "contained' between the tape the asphalt. Most people consider the "back" of tape to be the non-adhesive side (aka, "the backing"). If the log is on the actual "back" of the tape (non-adhesive side), it's not a

[+MysterySolvers6]

No need for it to work in the building. The first stage fulfills the GPS requirements. The hints in the first stage tell you how to find the final.

 

I recently did this near me with the coop of the library director. No problem from either them or the reviewer.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

You're probably using "back" to reference the adhesive side of the tape. In that case, it would be allowed, as the log is "contained' between the tape the asphalt. Most people consider the "back" of tape to be the non-adhesive side (aka, "the backing"). If the log is on the actual "back" of the tape (non-adhesive side), it's not a

 

As you suspected I talking about the sticky side. Using the logic you laid out. The book binding should be enough of a "cover" and the pages enough for the "log".

 

I don't think there would be a need to staple a log sheet or glue one on a blank page to meet the spirit you have laid out.