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Caches that deface public or private property....


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Does "Velcro" / Hook and loop fasteners count? I ask this because I have seen more velcro recently used to hide caches and I am interested in where Geocaching stands on this issue. Does the below guideline apply to velcro?

 

"Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method."
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As a member of the public, and therefore part owner of the property deemed public, I hereby give my consent (for what it is worth) to use one adhesive backed velcro strip, no larger than one square inch, to be used for the purposes of hiding a geocache, provided the geocache meets all other guidelines set forth by Groundspeak.

 

There, that should help.

 

:)

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Does the below guideline apply to velcro?

 

Yes, it does.

 

Depending on how the velcro is attached I would disagree. If the velcro is attached with glue or sticky stuff and once you remove the velcro and nothing remains, holes or otherwise I would not deem that defacing public property. I would say that once you remove the cache and nothing is changed then your okay.

 

Jim

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some say it do....some say it don't...........I think that ,as it is hidden from sight while in use and can be easily removed when the cache is archived, there should be no problem with it. It is a use of public property rather than an abuse. Private property calls for permission...however a velcro film can under a bench outside a mall, while prehaps an uninspired cache, doesn't get me frothing at the mouth over private ownership rights or destruction of property issues.

That said, I know some hiders will screw it up and cause a problem, as will some seekers. Use some uncommon sence and be reasonable in your approach to caching. :cool:

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Does the below guideline apply to velcro?

 

Yes, it does.

 

Depending on how the velcro is attached I would disagree. If the velcro is attached with glue or sticky stuff and once you remove the velcro and nothing remains, holes or otherwise I would not deem that defacing public property. I would say that once you remove the cache and nothing is changed then your okay.

 

Jim

 

I would agree that you are not defacing public property once you have removed it.

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Also recognize that if the velcro or the object it's glued to are exposed to the sun, then the glue is going to soften. The cache will drop and the glue will become a gooey mess that you can NOT remove easily. This stuff is not rated for outdoor use, not what I've seen anyway.

 

Edward

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This should not be a probllem when one gets permission to plavc ethe cahe.. the issue would be covered at that time. What? You don't ask?????? I know some places I con't either... I did get a denial on a cahe I wanted to hide in a local open space park. It involved screws to a wood structure they said no. So Somtimes this all could be addressed in the preliminary asking if you could plac ethe cache in the first place.

Chris

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The adhesive on velcro can be easily removed with a little solvent.

Yeah... and I'd hardly call a little bit of adhesive under a bench a case of defacement.

 

I'm sorry, but... wah wah wah wah wah. This is like being stoned to death with popcorn. Have we no more REAL issues to deal with?

 

Yeah, cancer, aids, and Eskimos have all been cured.

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Pet peeve is a cache placed with additional aids, like adhesive back velcro or a steel plate glued or nailed, when there's ample cover for the cache to be placed by other means.

 

I've placed only one cache which modified its environment, by having a small post which is pushed into the ground. The other five either sit on the ground or are tucked into nooks.

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I'm sorry, but... wah wah wah wah wah. This is like being stoned to death with popcorn. Have we no more REAL issues to deal with?

This... 100% this.

 

Add me to this list. A chunk of velcro stuck out of sight on the bottom of a bench isn't gonna even make the most ornery of parks workers even bat an eye. It'll just get lost in the used chewing gum.

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Pet peeve is a cache placed with additional aids, like adhesive back velcro or a steel plate glued or nailed, when there's ample cover for the cache to be placed by other means.

 

I've placed only one cache which modified its environment, by having a small post which is pushed into the ground. The other five either sit on the ground or are tucked into nooks.

Goody for you.

 

I've experienced a number of complicatedly engineered geocaches which were placed where 'any old cache' could have just as easily been tossed. The 'modified' caches were better; much better.

Edited by sbell111
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Does the below guideline apply to velcro?

 

Yes, it does.

 

Depending on how the velcro is attached I would disagree. If the velcro is attached with glue or sticky stuff and once you remove the velcro and nothing remains, holes or otherwise I would not deem that defacing public property. I would say that once you remove the cache and nothing is changed then your okay.

 

Jim

 

I would agree that you are not defacing public property once you have removed it.

Does that mean I shouldn't put my gum under a park bench either? Oh wait, how about attaching the cache to a park bench with gum? :wub:

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I like to use a "leave no trace" ethic for hides, adhessive leaves a trace. It's certainly better than using glue or mechanical fasteners.

Properly removed, adhesive from a typical piece of velcro leaves no trace on most surfaces.

 

As anything, the key is matching up the correct hide technique for the location.

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My personal thought process is to think of how I would think/feel if the person (a person unknown to me) was placing the cache on my personal property ... on my personal bench for example. Would the method in which I am considering placing the cache (velcro, glue, nails, screws, gum) be okay to me in this situation? Just my two cents.

 

With that logic, then screws, velcro, staples, and a few more methods is OK.

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My personal thought process is to think of how I would think/feel if the person (a person unknown to me) was placing the cache on my personal property ... on my personal bench for example. Would the method in which I am considering placing the cache (velcro, glue, nails, screws, gum) be okay to me in this situation? Just my two cents.

 

With that logic, then screws, velcro, staples, and a few more methods is OK.

 

My point was that if someone who I didn't know placed something on my personal property using any of those materials, I would NOT like it.

 

So my reasoning follows that I wouldn't use those on someone else's property including a public bench.

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My personal thought process is to think of how I would think/feel if the person (a person unknown to me) was placing the cache on my personal property ... on my personal bench for example. Would the method in which I am considering placing the cache (velcro, glue, nails, screws, gum) be okay to me in this situation? Just my two cents.

 

With that logic, then screws, velcro, staples, and a few more methods is OK.

 

My point was that if someone who I didn't know placed something on my personal property using any of those materials, I would NOT like it.

 

So my reasoning follows that I wouldn't use those on someone else's property including a public bench.

 

That is my point.

If I owned a bench and someone stapled some velcro to the bottom of it to secure a geocache, I would be perfectly fine with it.

So, by your logic, it is OK for me to staple velcro onto the bottom of someone elses bench.

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My personal thought process is to think of how I would think/feel if the person (a person unknown to me) was placing the cache on my personal property ... on my personal bench for example. Would the method in which I am considering placing the cache (velcro, glue, nails, screws, gum) be okay to me in this situation? Just my two cents.

 

With that logic, then screws, velcro, staples, and a few more methods is OK.

 

My point was that if someone who I didn't know placed something on my personal property using any of those materials, I would NOT like it.

 

So my reasoning follows that I wouldn't use those on someone else's property including a public bench.

 

That is my point.

If I owned a bench and someone stapled some velcro to the bottom of it to secure a geocache, I would be perfectly fine with it.

So, by your logic, it is OK for me to staple velcro onto the bottom of someone elses bench.

Yes, and I said that it's what I would do and what my personal opinion was.

 

Bittsen, what Motorcycle_Mama is saying is more of a golden rule thing and also like Team GPSaxophone said, moderators are not the same as cache reviewers (while I'm sure that some do both duties). I don't think that Motorcycle_Mama is saying "if you're okay with someone going in with an axe on your property to place a cache then then you've overcome a sufficient moral bar to do that where you would like to place a cache. Instead I believe that she's stating that a degree of empathy for someone who cares about their property (yet is okay with the idea of a geocache being placed) is needed. I think a useful thought exercise is to think "if this cache were on [random person's] property would he or she be upset with it? This is with the idea that this person has no passion for geocaching or really anything that we're doing but is a patient, reasonable person who just would like to not have devaluation of/damage to his or her property. If the answer is "I don't know." or "yes" then a rethinking of the cache hiding method would be in order.

 

That's my take on that particular back and forth and if I've misrepresented anyone's positions, I apologize and welcome corrections.

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My personal thought process is to think of how I would think/feel if the person (a person unknown to me) was placing the cache on my personal property ... on my personal bench for example. Would the method in which I am considering placing the cache (velcro, glue, nails, screws, gum) be okay to me in this situation? Just my two cents.

 

With that logic, then screws, velcro, staples, and a few more methods is OK.

 

My point was that if someone who I didn't know placed something on my personal property using any of those materials, I would NOT like it.

 

So my reasoning follows that I wouldn't use those on someone else's property including a public bench.

 

That is my point.

If I owned a bench and someone stapled some velcro to the bottom of it to secure a geocache, I would be perfectly fine with it.

So, by your logic, it is OK for me to staple velcro onto the bottom of someone elses bench.

Yes, and I said that it's what I would do and what my personal opinion was.

 

Bittsen, what Motorcycle_Mama is saying is more of a golden rule thing and also like Team GPSaxophone said, moderators are not the same as cache reviewers (while I'm sure that some do both duties). I don't think that Motorcycle_Mama is saying "if you're okay with someone going in with an axe on your property to place a cache then then you've overcome a sufficient moral bar to do that where you would like to place a cache. Instead I believe that she's stating that a degree of empathy for someone who cares about their property (yet is okay with the idea of a geocache being placed) is needed. I think a useful thought exercise is to think "if this cache were on [random person's] property would he or she be upset with it? This is with the idea that this person has no passion for geocaching or really anything that we're doing but is a patient, reasonable person who just would like to not have devaluation of/damage to his or her property. If the answer is "I don't know." or "yes" then a rethinking of the cache hiding method would be in order.

 

That's my take on that particular back and forth and if I've misrepresented anyone's positions, I apologize and welcome corrections.

Bittsen actually makes a good point. The Golden Rule does not work in this instance because people have different opinions of what is OK to be done unto them (or something like that). Bittsen isn't showing himself to be morally bankrupt when he states that it would be perfectly fine with him if someone used tacks to afix a cache to the bottom of a bench that he owned. He is merely expressing his opinion, that he believes that this would not damage that bench ion any meaningful way so he would be OK with it being done to his bench.

 

His saying this merely points out the simple fact that what you would do to your personal property (or allow done to it) should not be construed as being OK to do to some random piece of public property.

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Bittsen actually makes a good point. The Golden Rule does not work in this instance because people have different opinions of what is OK to be done unto them (or something like that). Bittsen isn't showing himself to be morally bankrupt when he states that it would be perfectly fine with him if someone used tacks to afix a cache to the bottom of a bench that he owned. He is merely expressing his opinion, that he believes that this would not damage that bench ion any meaningful way so he would be OK with it being done to his bench.

 

His saying this merely points out the simple fact that what you would do to your personal property (or allow done to it) should not be construed as being OK to do to some random piece of public property.

 

I definitely wasn't implying that Bittsen is morally bankrupt; the point about the golden rule perhaps not being a good guide in a situation like this is a good one though and one for which I should have given him more credit. Better to have clear guidelines about what is acceptable and what is not than run into trouble when someone's own version of personally acceptable runs crosswise to another person's.

 

Edited to add: also noting that Bittsen was engaging in a rhetorical argument about stapling and not suggesting that he would go out and do that.

Edited by mrbort
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Bittsen actually makes a good point. The Golden Rule does not work in this instance because people have different opinions of what is OK to be done unto them (or something like that). Bittsen isn't showing himself to be morally bankrupt when he states that it would be perfectly fine with him if someone used tacks to afix a cache to the bottom of a bench that he owned. He is merely expressing his opinion, that he believes that this would not damage that bench ion any meaningful way so he would be OK with it being done to his bench.

 

His saying this merely points out the simple fact that what you would do to your personal property (or allow done to it) should not be construed as being OK to do to some random piece of public property.

I definitely wasn't implying that Bittsen is morally bankrupt; the point about the golden rule perhaps not being a good guide in a situation like this is a good one though and one for which I should have given him more credit. Better to have clear guidelines about what is acceptable and what is not than run into trouble when someone's own version of personally acceptable runs crosswise to another person's.

 

Edited to add: also noting that Bittsen was engaging in a rhetorical argument about stapling and not suggesting that he would go out and do that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Bittsen isn't morally bankrupt, just that this isn't evidence of his bankruptcy. :)
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...Bittsen actually makes a good point. The Golden Rule does not work in this instance because people have different opinions of what is OK to be done unto them (or something like that). Bittsen isn't showing himself to be morally bankrupt when he states that it would be perfectly fine with him if someone used tacks to afix a cache to the bottom of a bench that he owned. He is merely expressing his opinion, that he believes that this would not damage that bench ion any meaningful way so he would be OK with it being done to his bench.

 

His saying this merely points out the simple fact that what you would do to your personal property (or allow done to it) should not be construed as being OK to do to some random piece of public property.

I agree here. A staple under a bench is more than some may do, but falls short of defacing and vandalism. Somehow the world survives all the garage sale signs affixed in more visible locations via similar methods. My main gripe on the garage sale signs are the folks who don't take them down when it's done. Doofies.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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...Bittsen actually makes a good point. The Golden Rule does not work in this instance because people have different opinions of what is OK to be done unto them (or something like that). Bittsen isn't showing himself to be morally bankrupt when he states that it would be perfectly fine with him if someone used tacks to afix a cache to the bottom of a bench that he owned. He is merely expressing his opinion, that he believes that this would not damage that bench ion any meaningful way so he would be OK with it being done to his bench.

 

His saying this merely points out the simple fact that what you would do to your personal property (or allow done to it) should not be construed as being OK to do to some random piece of public property.

I agree here. A staple under a bench is more than some may do, but falls short of defacing and vandalism. Somehow the world survives all the garage sale signs affixed in more visible locations via similar methods. My main gripe on the garage sale signs are the folks who don't take them down when it's done. Doofies.

 

:) My wife gets tired of hearing me bitch about the garbage sale signs that never seem to be removed by anyone but Mother nature.

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Does the below guideline apply to velcro?

 

Yes, it does.

 

I think that all depends on HOW the velcro is attached to the location, & what the location material is made of. If your referring to velcro with a sticky back. It would also depend on the type of "glue" used on that velcro.

 

Sticking velcro to glass won't damage the glass. You can pull it off, clean the window as you would normally clean the window, & it leaves no damage.

 

I believe the "RULE" applies to anything that would leave PERMANANT damge of any type, including damage that would require repair as well.

 

I have in my collection at least 15 different types of velcro & double stick tape. MANY of which were made to attache to various different items and be REMOVED without causing any damage to the item it was stuck too. I have velcro/Double stick tape made to stick on Walls, concrete, Wood paneling, Furniture, Stone, metal, & glass & be REMOVED and at the same time leaving NO damage.

 

So again... I would say if the velcro in question that is used can be removed and not cause any damage. Then it is fine. IF it can cause damage to the surface it was attached too. Then I would say it DOES break the rule. Same thing applies to double stick tape.

 

TGC

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