New Cache Type Proposal: AR Cache (Augmented Reality Cache)

[+Mephisztoe]

I recently sent Groundspeak an email with a proposal for a new Cache Type: The Augmented Reality Cache (short: AR Cache).

 

I also wrote an article about my idea on my private blog. You can read the article here: http://www.trimagination.info/2009/04/21/a...cache-ar-cache/.

 

Since many people already have devices that have integrated cameras and are able to run proprietary software, I believe that this Cache Type can add a whole new GeoCaching experience to this "game".

 

It basically goes like this:

The Cache Owner uses real world objects (such as traffic signs) as "markers" and connects them with some sort of virtual object (like 3D animated arrows, numbers, text, symbols, whatever). This information is uploaded to the Cache description. The GeoCacher then installs a special software that is able to import this AR infoset. Then, he goes to the coordinates given in the description, points his camera to the real word object and instead of seeing only the traffic sign (for instance) on his display, the software running on his device extends the image with virtual information in real time (like an arrow pointing to the right saying 50m).

 

There are a lot of possibilities that could make this a really awesome thing. You can read more details about it on my blog.

 

If anyone is interested working on a proof of concept, please notify me. I own a Windows Mobile device with integrated GPS and camera (HTC TyTN II), so I could easily start working on a .NET application for example. ;-)

 

What would be absolutely awesome is a native iPhone software for that (which is why I contacted Groundspeak...).

 

Please leave some feedback. I am curious what other people think about that.

[+Tequila]

It is called Wherigo.

[+Mephisztoe]

Hi Tequila,

 

It is called Wherigo.

 

Is it a common behaviour only to drop on sentence without explanation, your own thoughts or whatever? ;-) Never mind.

 

It is more than Wherigo. It is about extending reality with virtual objects as if these objects were actually there and part of the environment. Wherigo is triggered by coordinates and develops stories, being able to show images and such.

 

AR is like having to point your flashlight to the correct reflector at night to see it only that you need to point your camera now to an object and see the object together with something else on your display.

 

Cheers,

Tronex.

[+Tequila]

Ok. Here is a different answer.

 

Wherigo has been around approximately 1 year. To date, there 169 Wherigo caches in the entire United States. It has been very very slow catching on.

 

One of the challenges is the fact that you must have a player in order to complete a Wherigo. This means buying either a Garmin Oregon/Colorado or a PDA that supports Wherigo and most people can't justify that for so few opportunities to use it.

 

The second challenge is the tools available to develop cartridges. They are still in their infancy and challenging to anyone who is not a programmer.

 

It sounds like you are very much at the concept level and would also have to develop tools etc. to support/build your product.

 

You will probably get more interest/support if you suggest augmenting Wherigo to incorporate some of your ideas.

 

I doubt Groundspeak will be interested in another niche concept at this point.

[NordicMan]

 

Since many people already have devices that have integrated cameras and are able to run proprietary software, I believe that this Cache Type can add a whole new GeoCaching experience to this "game".

 

 

It's an interesting concept, but at this time I think very FEW people have GPS/cameras.. Many PDA's can have both, but most geocachers tend to avoid bring expensive "not outdoors rated" devices into the field with them.

[+Mephisztoe]

Hi Tequila,

 

Great answer. And you are right, maybe it is more promising to add such a feauture to something that already exists.

 

However,... not implementing something because it seems as if noone would use it or because there's a competitor product available already cannot be the goal. Microsoft started with Excel when Lotus 123 ruled the market. ;-)

 

You are also right with the assumption that this idea is only in the conception phase. I am only wondering if other people find that idea interesting and if it may be possible to gather some people to get things going.

 

We'll see, hehe.

[+DyverDown]

I would not find it interesting.

 

There is my vote.

 

DD

[+leatherman]

Hardware specific caching is not going to work. Even if you made your own site for your new game I doubt it would catch on. Like Wherigo.

 

The whole point of geocaching is anyone can do it. People using granpa's old GPSr or one you picked up from a garage sale. Even nostalgic ex-military who want to use a map and compass.(Can be done. Just takes more searching)

 

Sounds like hardware specific "Virtual Caches"(banned) to me.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Add the "L" in between those other two letters and you get what was just banned recently..ALR caches. Most ALRs asked for a picture and I would skip most or log without the pic, I will NOT carry my expensive camera into the wild just to make a cache find. I don't normally take my camera with me to ANY caches, so I don't do a lot of ECs either.

 

My vote, a big NO THANKS!!

 

Now, if you'd like to buy us all nice cheap cameras to carry about, I might reconsider. But I don't like carrying tons of stuff when caching either, so....

[+BlueDeuce]

Perhaps if it could be broadened into other types of non-gps methods of finding caches. One that comes to mind is podcast where you follow audio instructions.

 

Of course on that cache you can choose to use a gps to find the cache instead.

 

Doesn't gc.com have a requirement that it be gps findable?

 

Well anyway, you should probably set up a cache that allows for both gps and your integrated method. At least you can give it a trial run.

Edited April 21, 2009 by BlueDeuce

[+Rockin Roddy]

Perhaps if it could be broadened into other types of non-gps methods of finding caches. One that comes to mind is podcast where you follow audio instructions.

 

Of course on that cache you can choose to use a gps to find the cache instead.

 

Doesn't gc.com have a requirement that it be gps findable?

 

Well anyway, you should probably set up a cache that allows for both gps and your integrated method. At least you can give it a trial run.

 

Then you have an ALS...lol

[+Mephisztoe]

Some things I am wondering about:

 

Searching for a night cache, you need a flashlight.

Sometimes, you need even a black light to make special hints visible.

Sometimes, you need ears (don't laugh), because a cache contains an alarm clock that only rings at certain times.

Sometimes you need to make heavy calculations you either need a calculator and a big brain for or specific tools mostly built into programs running on Java, .NET, etc. pp.

 

So. All of that stuff is okay and used to "enhance" the adventure and the difficulty level.

 

Plus: Many Cachers carry a lot of stuff with them. GPS, Waterbottle, Paper, Pens, Trades, Additional compass, Flashlight, additional batteries, spare logs, toilet paper ;-) ... I even heard of someone who used his Notebook and a UMTS card to make a screenshot of a webcam image of himself holding the Notebook in one hand and an umbrella in the other to get logged.

 

My idea really is about hardware (as different types of flashlights and internet enabled devices are as well). And more specifically it is going to need either an iPhone or a Windows Mobile device.

 

If people *really* don't own such devices as much and thus my idea wouldnt get a very high attention... why are there so many GeoCaching apps for Windows Mobile available? Why is Groundspeak developing an own GC app specifically for the iPhone? Why is "paperless caching" so popular?

[+leatherman]

Some things I am wondering about:

 

Searching for a night cache, you need a flashlight.

Sometimes, you need even a black light to make special hints visible.

Sometimes, you need ears (don't laugh), because a cache contains an alarm clock that only rings at certain times.

Sometimes you need to make heavy calculations you either need a calculator and a big brain for or specific tools mostly built into programs running on Java, .NET, etc. pp.

 

So. All of that stuff is okay and used to "enhance" the adventure and the difficulty level.

 

Plus: Many Cachers carry a lot of stuff with them. GPS, Waterbottle, Paper, Pens, Trades, Additional compass, Flashlight, additional batteries, spare logs, toilet paper ;-) ... I even heard of someone who used his Notebook and a UMTS card to make a screenshot of a webcam image of himself holding the Notebook in one hand and an umbrella in the other to get logged.

 

My idea really is about hardware (as different types of flashlights and internet enabled devices are as well). And more specifically it is going to need either an iPhone or a Windows Mobile device.

 

If people *really* don't own such devices as much and thus my idea wouldnt get a very high attention... why are there so many GeoCaching apps for Windows Mobile available? Why is Groundspeak developing an own GC app specifically for the iPhone? Why is "paperless caching" so popular?

Absolutely none of your points support your proposal to make a new cache type/category. Your points refer to interesting aspects to individual caches.

What do you suggest to make Ground Speak add your cache type to there site?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Some things I am wondering about:

 

Searching for a night cache, you need a flashlight.

Sometimes, you need even a black light to make special hints visible.

Sometimes, you need ears (don't laugh), because a cache contains an alarm clock that only rings at certain times.

Sometimes you need to make heavy calculations you either need a calculator and a big brain for or specific tools mostly built into programs running on Java, .NET, etc. pp.

 

So. All of that stuff is okay and used to "enhance" the adventure and the difficulty level.

 

Plus: Many Cachers carry a lot of stuff with them. GPS, Waterbottle, Paper, Pens, Trades, Additional compass, Flashlight, additional batteries, spare logs, toilet paper ;-) ... I even heard of someone who used his Notebook and a UMTS card to make a screenshot of a webcam image of himself holding the Notebook in one hand and an umbrella in the other to get logged.

 

My idea really is about hardware (as different types of flashlights and internet enabled devices are as well). And more specifically it is going to need either an iPhone or a Windows Mobile device.

 

If people *really* don't own such devices as much and thus my idea wouldnt get a very high attention... why are there so many GeoCaching apps for Windows Mobile available? Why is Groundspeak developing an own GC app specifically for the iPhone? Why is "paperless caching" so popular?

 

A flashlight doesn't cost $400 or more...well, most don't at least, can fit in my back pocket and is really durable (and cheap if lost or broken). I'd never carry a blacklight nor would I know where to find a portable one or would I bother to buy one for a cache or even 10 caches. My ears follow me wherever I go. I don't do puzzles, I don't do math on the trails, I don't like to try to learn when I'd rather be having fun (in other words, if it seems like work, I'm not doing it). Many cachers DO carry water, paper, pens etc...all the more reason I don't need even more to carry and worry about! If some want to do things like I don't , good for them, I'm still not going to just because some will.

 

Paperless caching is popular because people don't want to have to carry more stuff like cache pages. I am completely paperless adn I only carry my GPS (no PDA, no paper)...and I am happy this way! I don't even own a cell phone, but my guess on why GS is making apps for them is because most do and many can't also afford a GPS, this allows you to cache without spending extra money on a GPS.

 

Many people, like myself, aren't too bright when it comes to tech either...

 

My guess here is GS told you to run it past the masses and see what answer you get...I'm sticking with NO THANKS!! You might come back with "you don't want to so you say no so no one can?" I say NO because you'd be asking the PTB to work on something I'm not interested in when there's a LOT that is in need of work that I AM interested in and have been waiting on!

[+Mephisztoe]

Absolutely none of your points support your proposal to make a new cache type/category. Your points refer to interesting aspects to individual caches.

What do you suggest to make Ground Speak add your cache type to there site?

 

Absolutely right. Thank you leatherman. I was trying to defend my idea due to people arguying about stuff that also has nothing to do with this topic.

• Tequila compared it to Wherigo
  
• Nordicman said only few people have cameras
  
• Dyverdown was not interested in this at all
  
• leatherman brought in that hardwarespecific caching won't work
  
• Rockin Roddy would never carry a camera with him on his caching tours
  
• BlueDeuce suggested to make the Augmented Reality part optional
  

Of course such a thing would only (if only) work, if there was a proof of concept. Software needs to be developed and a cache needs to be hidden using AR parts. I mean... how did the first Night Cache develop? Someone must have had the idea first to make a cache findable only at night and placing reflectors.

 

At the moment I am only calling for feedback to find out if this concept makes any sense. And you all gave me some interesting feedback.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Absolutely none of your points support your proposal to make a new cache type/category. Your points refer to interesting aspects to individual caches.

What do you suggest to make Ground Speak add your cache type to there site?

 

Absolutely right. Thank you leatherman. I was trying to defend my idea due to people arguying about stuff that also has nothing to do with this topic.

• Tequila compared it to Wherigo
  
• Nordicman said only few people have cameras
  
• Dyverdown was not interested in this at all
  
• leatherman brought in that hardwarespecific caching won't work
  
• Rockin Roddy would never carry a camera with him on his caching tours
  
• BlueDeuce suggested to make the Augmented Reality part optional
  

Of course such a thing would only (if only) work, if there was a proof of concept. Software needs to be developed and a cache needs to be hidden using AR parts. I mean... how did the first Night Cache develop? Someone must have had the idea first to make a cache findable only at night and placing reflectors.

 

At the moment I am only calling for feedback to find out if this concept makes any sense. And you all gave me some interesting feedback.

 

You can ignore that we are telling you your idea won't float and why if you want, that's your choice! You said we'd need a camera, many will not carry a camera (not just me, mind you). You said you'd need tech, many of us aren't techy. Can you, instead of defending your idea, enlighten us about how this new type would actually work and why we'd want to do one?

[+Mephisztoe]

Can you, instead of defending your idea, enlighten us about how this new type would actually work and why we'd want to do one?

 

Sure. ;-) Although I already did and posted an example. And here you can see an image I put together so that one can get a simple idea of what it could look like.

 

Forget about any tech stuff and imagine everything would already exist. People do whatever they always did to get their information down to their iPhone or Windows Mobile cellphone with integrated or external GPS device (those people exist ;-)).

 

Exactly like with a multicache they go and find waypoint #1. They know it's an AR Cache so they start looking for simple geometric forms like traffic signs, buildings with a tersely shape, some sort of artwork that looks like a triangle... whatever. They point their iPhone or Windows Mobile to different objects like they would point their flashlight to trees at night.

 

And on some object they really find something. Maybe in front of a sign, an arror is floating in mid air pointing to a direction. Maybe on a round stone a 3D Version of a cathedral is rotating so that you know you need to find that cathedral (which most certainly needs to be around, lol). Maybe you see a three dimensional rebus puzzle you need to solve to get the next coordinated.

 

I don't know. As I already said: I only had the idea today and thought it might be interesting. There are already some cool applications that work with Computers and webcams to show what AR can be good for. There are even some AR applications available for Windows Mobile cellphones already. Using it for GeoCaching could be fun, I though. It's about making use of new technology and about imagination.

 

Didn't expect people to be to negative about a new idea.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I looked and still say NO THANKS!! Others may have interest, but it's not sold on me! I can't imagine having equipment that can display virtual stuff to start with, then I can't imagine paying good money for this likely expensive technology. I can see many more problems than answers too, but that's a good start!

 

I like your imagination, but am not seeing how this could even be implemented!

[knowschad]

I think that the only problem here is that you are trying to promote your idea as a new form of geocaching instead of promoting it as something else, brand-new. By trying to get geocachers into it you are failing to understand what gets most of us excited about geocaching. The technology is the means, not the end, for most of us. Your concept is more about the cool technology as both the means and the end. I believe that Groundspeak made the very same mistake with Wherigo.

[+Maingray]

Hardly enough people have the technology for Wherigo cartridges, let alone something like this.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Hardly enough people have the technology for Wherigo cartridges, let alone something like this.

 

Nor would many buy the technology just for this.

[+StarBrand]

Sorry but it just sounds Waaaaaaaay to conceptual to me. Going to require some fairly sophisticated software and hardware, Unless I am totally misunderstanding you, I just can't see this concept as very practical. I can't see using something as simple as a WM device or an iPhone is going to be capable of the type of virtual experience you are expecting.

 

or....

 

If, I am over reading it -

On the simpler side of your proposal - It really does sound like an extension of a Wherigo cache.

[+leatherman]

I applaud your vision.

I foresee Oakly and Garmin creating glasses with integrated bluetooth and an optical H.U.D. Where waypoints would appear with floating icons at the physical location. Bluetooth 5.0 would serve audio and video chat and cell calls on the H.U.D.

Geocaching would surely be a transformed experience.

 

 

I just don't see your concept taking fruition until such technology is available.

 

iPhone sux beans! hahahaa

[+BlueDeuce]

Let us know how it works out there for ya.

[+Tequila]

I think your concept might get more traction and be more welcome in a group more focused on virtual reality etc.

 

Remember that geocaching's roots is in simply using a GPS to navigate to a single waypoint and find an ammo box hidden just off a nice hiking trail.

 

As Wherigo is demonstrating, acceptance of a new concept can be long in coming.

 

I think you got your feedback. Most here are not interested. Most here are not willing to develop a concept with you. Sorry.

 

Good luck.

[El_Cid]

ouch - what an open-minded community lol

the guys just came here to discuss an idea - why so serious?

Edited April 21, 2009 by El_Cid

[+Rockin Roddy]

ouch - what an open-minded community lol

the guys just came here to discuss an idea - why so serious?

 

Would you rather we fed him a bunch of crud? If the idea had a chance of coming to reality, it might be cool...if you could afford the equipment to do it! I'm still trying to figure out how you'd get a virtual image to show up on your GPS, phone, PDA or whatever. Granted, I am a tech idiot, so I'm sure there's ideas out there. I don't think we're all to close to having that idea turn to reality though.

 

Now, if he could make that happen, a new site and his own rules might be the best way to go, it's a whole new breed and could make for an interesting competetor! I liked the idea about the Oakleys, NICE!!!

[+leatherman]

ouch - what an open-minded community lol

the guys just came here to discuss an idea - why so serious?

 

Get a grip!

 

Disagreement doesn't = aggression.

[+Tequila]

ouch - what an open-minded community lol

the guys just came here to discuss an idea - why so serious?

 

I don't think we have been too serious or harsh. We have been realistic. I would give the chances of Groundspeak considering this at less than 0.01%

 

The guy has an interesting idea. But it doesn't really fit into the geocaching concept. He might get a more receptive response in the Wherigo forum where there are developers that might be more interested.

 

On the upside, he gave me a great idea for a new Wherigo. Not what he was looking for but at least it is positive.

[+Bad Duck]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Does a physical tag have to be placed on the object that gets scanned with the camera? Such as the ARTag

[+leatherman]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Does a physical tag have to be placed on the object that gets scanned with the camera? Such as the ARTag

 

I'm assuming in it's infancy there would be a need for physical markers the devices would read to verify with the network info.

 

Eventually there would be dynamic multi app data that could identify what's being viewed digitally to interact with info and visual feedback to support his vision.

 

First there has to be networks and apps that communicate so that this can be performed fluidly.

[+Mephisztoe]

I'm assuming in it's infancy there would be a need for physical markers the devices would read to verify with the network info.

 

Eventually there would be dynamic multi app data that could identify what's being viewed digitally to interact with info and visual feedback to support his vision.

 

First there has to be networks and apps that communicate so that this can be performed fluidly.

 

There already are a couple of applications that actually work on handhelds. Indeed, they do work with markers. However, this is only because you need something that is easily recognizable. This is why I was thinking about traffic signs, cuz those *are* simple geometric forms. ;-)

 

Look at what these guys did: http://studierstube.icg.tu-graz.ac.at/hand...sinesscards.php

 

There are a couple of more videos on their website. Amongst other things, they demonstrate that it is possible to augment reality even on a cellphone with 30 fps in realtime.

 

I see your points and what I can take off it is, that people are not ready for something like this yet. Maybe this is because you don't really understand, what I am talking about. For example, I really don't believe it's something totally different from standard geocaching. It's 100% the same thing. Still GPS Coordinates. Still puzzles to solve, still your name to put into a log. It's only that at some waypoints you need to get an augmented view of reality to get to the next coordinates. That's all. No need for something like Wherigo, special websites, new audience.

 

You know, I started GeoCaching, because I happen to have a company cellphone that runs WIndows Mobile and already has a camera and a GPS receiver built in. Most of you guys probably bought a GPS at one point in time. Maybe because you needed to navigate. Maybe especially for GC. However, you spent money for it. If there was something like an AR Cache, maybe people will look for a GPS running Windows Mobile and with a cam built in especially for this instead of just a pure GPS device.

 

Maybe people would think something like "Hey, I have an iPhone... with GPS and cam... why not looking at that weird AR Stuff I heard about?". DOn't know. ;-)

 

Technology is something which is new at some point and sometimes later it either does not exist no more because nobody was interested or everyone has it. Like flat screens. Like DVD Players. Currently like bluray players and Full HD. ;-) I can still remember the time when cameras in cellphones did not exist. When the address book was not even connected to the SMS feature and you had to remember the phone number when typing an SMS.

 

Looking at the forums of different applications that are suitable for GC, I know that there are plenty of people out there GeoCaching who already own a GPS enabled device with integrated cameras. Also I know that there are over 10 Million people out there who own an iPhone... so it's really not a question about hardware, but rather about what can be done and is it really fun.

 

I admit, that I don't know the answer to the second question. I can only imagine that there must be at least some sort of "Wow!" effect. Just like with the first 3D enabled games. Also, since it is extending real objects with 3D images, there should be more and more over: visually more attractive ways for doing things, presenting puzzles, giving hints, etc.

 

One thing is absolutely out of question: The hardware is there and the software can be developed (it already HAS been developed).

 

As I said: Look at the link above and get a clue for yourself. I believe it's amazing. ;-)

 

Ah, one thing: I didn't think of your posts being aggressive. Hope you don't get me wrong here. But I had a feeling that your feedback was pretty negative. Ideas are not things that instantly evolve into products... they need to be extended,.. worked on,... maybe discarded at some point or maybe until other circumstances are reached. The message, I read in most postings here again was more like "Go away, that's crap and nobody wants that.".