60csx or pn-40

[+Rockin Roddy]

We ran in to the same issues updating a database when we started using GSAK. We've taken a little simpler route. The NightlyDBUpdate macro found here will handle everything for you .. automatically. It's menu driven and will update all your entries including caches that have been archived.

 

It works with both a 60CSx and a PN-40 ...

 

Gotta love those who help and give so freely of their work!! THANKS Tigerz!! I saw myotis' recipe up there and thought I was probably better off loading one at a time for now seeings GSAK and I aren't friends, I figured send to GPS would likely take less time depending on amount of caches I wanted to load.

 

I like myotis' recipe too, don't get me wrong, just not likely I would ever figure out the set-up (I might be thinking it's harder than it looks, but GSAK scares me from the beginning anyways. Maybe some day....THANKS for posting this as well myotis.

 

And I know what you're thinking...how did this techno dunce get this far with the PN-40?? Really, it's not hard to figure out or use.

[+North Fork Seeker]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

 

A not so secret secret...neither am I! It's truly not that complicated, it just seems that way!! Go to the DeLorme forums and lurk a bit, ask questions and read tips and tricks, those are good reads!

 

I was up and running in no time and with very little trouble. I did run into trouble the second time I wanted to load aerials to the PN-40, but I was heavily dosed with nyquil at the time and was pretty loopy. The next morning, I realized my mistake. Fortunately, fixing that mistake wasn't hard at all and I am now pretty well versed on mapping and PN-40 use!!

 

And remember, we're here for help if needed, many in here smarter than I and more than happy to lend a hand! And, those step-by-steps in the DeLorme forums...priceless!

[BlueDamsel]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

 

Don't worry about it. A lot of these folks are doing more complex stuff that is not required to just simply go out and find caches. After you get used to the basic functions of your unit and you've learned to make it point you to a cache, then you can start exploring how to add more nuances that make it work better with your caching style.

 

This is true of ANY unit no matter who makes it. I'm still figuring out all the nifty tricks my Oregon can do after a month of use, but it hasn't stopped me from finding over 150 caches in the meantime.

 

Go out, have fun, don't worry. There's enough people here who know the units well enough to walk you thru any problems you might have.

 

BlueDamsel

[+benjamin921]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

 

Don't worry about it. A lot of these folks are doing more complex stuff that is not required to just simply go out and find caches. After you get used to the basic functions of your unit and you've learned to make it point you to a cache, then you can start exploring how to add more nuances that make it work better with your caching style.

 

This is true of ANY unit no matter who makes it. I'm still figuring out all the nifty tricks my Oregon can do after a month of use, but it hasn't stopped me from finding over 150 caches in the meantime.

 

Go out, have fun, don't worry. There's enough people here who know the units well enough to walk you thru any problems you might have.

 

BlueDamsel

Well put and beat me to it

[+myotis]

We ran in to the same issues updating a database when we started using GSAK. We've taken a little simpler route. The NightlyDBUpdate macro found here will handle everything for you .. automatically. It's menu driven and will update all your entries including caches that have been archived.

 

It works with both a 60CSx and a PN-40 ...

 

Since I am a beleiver of if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I will likely stick with my system. it works great and I have everything I need on my GPS in about 5 minutes.

 

But I have some quesitons: How long does it take to update 2000 caches? Do you have to leave your computer running all night.

[+myotis]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

 

Don't worry about it. A lot of these folks are doing more complex stuff that is not required to just simply go out and find caches. After you get used to the basic functions of your unit and you've learned to make it point you to a cache, then you can start exploring how to add more nuances that make it work better with your caching style.

 

This is true of ANY unit no matter who makes it. I'm still figuring out all the nifty tricks my Oregon can do after a month of use, but it hasn't stopped me from finding over 150 caches in the meantime.

 

Go out, have fun, don't worry. There's enough people here who know the units well enough to walk you thru any problems you might have.

 

BlueDamsel

Well put and beat me to it

 

One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos that take up 1/120th the sapce of the Delorome 24K topos and not only can you load all you need on your GPS, it is simple to get the maps on the GPS. For garmin, you run a set up file to install a mapset into MapSource. If you get a new mapset, you just download and run the install. In MapSource, you select the mapset you want (for example City Navigator for street navigation) then select the segments of the map you want (real simple there is a tool), then slect another mapset (for example a 24K vector topo map for a certian state) you want to install, select the map with the select tool and then push the send to GPS tool. Since the Garmin maps are vector, they take 1/120th the space of the Delorome maps, so unlike with the PN40, you can fit all the maps you will ever need on your GPS. So once you install the maps, you always have everything you need on your GPS.

[+Tigerz]

We ran in to the same issues updating a database when we started using GSAK. We've taken a little simpler route. The NightlyDBUpdate macro found here will handle everything for you .. automatically. It's menu driven and will update all your entries including caches that have been archived.

 

It works with both a 60CSx and a PN-40 ...

 

Since I am a beleiver of if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I will likely stick with my system. it works great and I have everything I need on my GPS in about 5 minutes.

 

But I have some quesitons: How long does it take to update 2000 caches? Do you have to leave your computer running all night.

I use Windows Task Manager to run it automatically every night at 1 AM. In my case, I have it backup my database, retrieve any new PQ's, and then update the closest 250 caches that haven't been updated in the last 3 days. Put a little differently, every cache within 150 miles of me is updated at least every 3 days. (My wife and I have pretty well cached out an area that was fairly sparce to begin with.) Having an up-to-date database is real handy as I travel a good bit as part of my job. In addition to the database maintenance, I also use the macro to call other macros like the FindStatsGen macro. This was again helpful when we were working on the DeLorme, County, and WRC "Fizzy" Challenges. On a real-time basis, we knew where we were and exactly what we needed to find.

 

In your case, if you ran the macro only once per night you'd be looking at 8 days. If you wanted, run it twice a night and have everything updated in 4 days.

 

I'm actually funny when it comes to computers. I argued with the IT folks years ago when they tried to put a PC on my desk for the first time. Even today, I frequently encourage folks as part of my work to go back to paper and pencil. The important thing to me is what value do you see/receive from whatever you glean from the computer ... versus ... what are you going to give up if you spend the time on the computer? To exaggerate ... do I want to play online games or spend the time with my 3 boys?

 

I know ... I know ... Obviously, the answer is to play online games with my sons!

 

Bottom line ... cache and "plan your caching" as you're comfortable. If you want to handle all the maintenance while you're sleeping, the macro might help. If you're the type that wants to "participate" and learn what's new (some folks call these kinds of people FTF Hounds!), then do it by hand.

 

Hope that helps ... and now to get us back on topic ... I sleep equally well after a good day caching with either my 60CSx or PN-40!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I use Windows Task Manager to run it automatically every night at 1 AM. In my case, I have it backup my database, retrieve any new PQ's, and then update the closest 250 caches that haven't been updated in the last 3 days. Put a little differently, every cache within 150 miles of me is updated at least every 3 days. (My wife and I have pretty well cached out an area that was fairly sparce to begin with.) Having an up-to-date database is real handy as I travel a good bit as part of my job. In addition to the database maintenance, I also use the macro to call other macros like the FindStatsGen macro. This was again helpful when we were working on the DeLorme, County, and WRC "Fizzy" Challenges. On a real-time basis, we knew where we were and exactly what we needed to find.

 

In your case, if you ran the macro only once per night you'd be looking at 8 days. If you wanted, run it twice a night and have everything updated in 4 days.

 

I'm actually funny when it comes to computers. I argued with the IT folks years ago when they tried to put a PC on my desk for the first time. Even today, I frequently encourage folks as part of my work to go back to paper and pencil. The important thing to me is what value do you see/receive from whatever you glean from the computer ... versus ... what are you going to give up if you spend the time on the computer? To exaggerate ... do I want to play online games or spend the time with my 3 boys?

 

I know ... I know ... Obviously, the answer is to play online games with my sons!

 

Bottom line ... cache and "plan your caching" as you're comfortable. If you want to handle all the maintenance while you're sleeping, the macro might help. If you're the type that wants to "participate" and learn what's new (some folks call these kinds of people FTF Hounds!), then do it by hand.

 

Hope that helps ... and now to get us back on topic ... I sleep equally well after a good day caching with either my 60CSx or PN-40!

 

Very nice set-up, my firiend, well done!

[+briansnat]

As a long time 60CSX user and recent PN40 owner here is my take.

 

For automotive navigation: Garmin wins hands down. When turns come up, Garmin's backlight comes on and a closeup view of the intersection pops up. This is a key feature for a unit with a fairly small screen and the PN40 doesn't do it.

 

If you miss a turn the Garmin starts recalculating the route immediately. The PN40 just chugs merrily along and you have to ask it to recalculate the route. ....SNIP.....

 

 

It was pointed out to me that there is a setting that you can change to force the PN40 to recalculate the route when you miss a turn. Haven't tried it yet, but it's nice to know that this important function is available on the PN40 (you'd think it would be the default).

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

It was pointed out to me that there is a setting that you can change to force the PN40 to recalculate the route when you miss a turn. Haven't tried it yet, but it's nice to know that this important function is available on the PN40 (you'd think it would be the default).

 

Do share!!

[+North Fork Seeker]

Rockin Roddy Thanks for the advice on getting started with my PN40, but the more I read the more I am wondering if I bought the right unit sounds very complicated as I am also not very tech oriented. My unit should be here today or friday.

 

Don't worry about it. A lot of these folks are doing more complex stuff that is not required to just simply go out and find caches. After you get used to the basic functions of your unit and you've learned to make it point you to a cache, then you can start exploring how to add more nuances that make it work better with your caching style.

 

This is true of ANY unit no matter who makes it. I'm still figuring out all the nifty tricks my Oregon can do after a month of use, but it hasn't stopped me from finding over 150 caches in the meantime.

 

Go out, have fun, don't worry. There's enough people here who know the units well enough to walk you thru any problems you might have.

 

BlueDamsel

Well put and beat me to it

 

One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos that take up 1/120th the sapce of the Delorome 24K topos and not only can you load all you need on your GPS, it is simple to get the maps on the GPS. For garmin, you run a set up file to install a mapset into MapSource. If you get a new mapset, you just download and run the install. In MapSource, you select the mapset you want (for example City Navigator for street navigation) then select the segments of the map you want (real simple there is a tool), then slect another mapset (for example a 24K vector topo map for a certian state) you want to install, select the map with the select tool and then push the send to GPS tool. Since the Garmin maps are vector, they take 1/120th the space of the Delorome maps, so unlike with the PN40, you can fit all the maps you will ever need on your GPS. So once you install the maps, you always have everything you need on your GPS.

not to start any trouble but I don't have a garmin so all that means nothing to me. I bought a pn 40 after reading this thread and I read every post and decided this was the unit for me.

[+North Fork Seeker]

it has arrived a brand spankin new PN40 and a day earlier than it was scheduled to get here. Let the fun begin

[+embra]

Do share!!

 

Menu/Routes/Menu/Edit Route Settings/Back on Track (Road): Automatic, or if you prefer, Prompt.

 

My recommendation...well, more of a preference, actually...is to make the back on track threshold the maximum .25 mi. It's slow enough in its route calculations that one doesn't want it recalculating just because you pulled off to get some gas.

Edited February 27, 2009 by embra

[+Rockin Roddy]

Do share!!

 

Menu/Routes/Menu/Edit Route Settings/Back on Track (Road): Automatic, or if you prefer, Prompt.

 

My recommendation...well, more of a preference, actually...is to make the back on track threshold the maximum .25 mi. It's slow enough in its route calculations that one doesn't want it recalculating just because you pulled off to get some gas.

 

THANKS embra, all set now!

[+Rockin Roddy]

it has arrived a brand spankin new PN40 and a day earlier than it was scheduled to get here. Let the fun begin

 

CONGRATS!!

[+Tigerz]

Do share!!

 

Menu/Routes/Menu/Edit Route Settings/Back on Track (Road): Automatic, or if you prefer, Prompt.

 

My recommendation...well, more of a preference, actually...is to make the back on track threshold the maximum .25 mi. It's slow enough in its route calculations that one doesn't want it recalculating just because you pulled off to get some gas.

Thank you Embra ... I didn't know about the automatic re-routing as well. I did however have it in my "list" of shortcomings from my evaluation against the Garmin OR. Now that I've reconfigured my unit as you suggested, I also don't understand why it's automatic when on foot (direct), but not driving??

 

Nonetheless, it works now thanks to your insight ... we're all grateful for your help!

[+embra]

I'm not certain I understand...you'll notice on that menu there are separate back on track settings for direct and street routes so you can have them the same or different, as you prefer.

 

Or are you referring to what was selected as the defaults?

[+Tigerz]

I'm not certain I understand...you'll notice on that menu there are separate back on track settings for direct and street routes so you can have them the same or different, as you prefer.

 

Or are you referring to what was selected as the defaults?

I was referring to the mfr's defaults. On the surface, I don't see the logic in not having both of them set to automatic?? Even to someone like myself who digs around in the configuration, changing those settings was not at all intuitively obvious. It was on my "get to it" list, but with the battery issues and the macro development, I had other things on my mind. Tis ok though ... just me thinking out loud. The bottom line is it works better now thanks to your help!

 

Shifting gears ... great progress has been made with the logging macro. We now have a working beta. I will be heading to Myrtle Beach tomorrow for a short cache run and an early start on the weekend. I should have 40-60+ caches tomorrow night we can test it with. If all goes well, I will post a link to the new macro late tomorrow evening or Saturday ... the excitement continues. Just imagine what we can do when we get Cache Register and direct access through GPSBabel!

 

Mike

[+OpenTrackRacer]

I was going to stay out of this thread but the continuous flow of biased and misleading information from myotis has forced my hand.

 

He would have you believe that the only 24k topo maps available for the PN-40 are raster USGS quads. This is untrue. DeLorme provides 24k vector topo maps for the entire U.S. with the PN-40 package. These maps work on Topo 7 as well as the PN-40. This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Colorado 400t units which only come with maps for the handheld. With the PN-40, you get all the same map coverage as you to with the Garmin 400t units plus Topo 7 to boot, all for less money as well mind you. This can be a huge benefit. Without having to purchase anything else (except the $30 per year Map Library subscription) I can use my notebook with it's big screen along with the PN-40 to see topo maps, USGS quads and aerial imagery in real time. It's not quote Google Earth but it's very good (and it works where there is no cellphone coverage). It's also very useful for trip planning, as well as reviewing track logs and routes.

 

Many geocachers have found the aerial imagery to be very useful, and others (mainly those who don't own a PN-20/40) have not. Now, I know this is the Geocaching forum but many people (like me) use the GPS receivers for other purposes as well. I've put together a little demonstration which starkly illustrates the advantages of the available maps and imagery sets on the PN-40.

 

I geocache but I also use my GPSr for exploring. I'm with a group that explores abandoned mines and also old mill sites and ghost towns. We were recently exploring near Death Valley. We entered a mine through it's eastern portal (adit) and exited it's western portal. Instead of going back, we decided to walk west on the surface to where another mine was located, enter it's eastern portal, walk through and come out to the west where we would be met. Our groups split and we headed towards the other mine around dusk. We knew roughly where it was but had never walked to it. As we proceeded, the fog started to roll in. It got dark, cold and the visibility was down to under fifty feet. We had no way to contact the rest of our group (too far for the radios and no cellphone coverage) and if we couldn't find the mine, I might be forced to hit the "Help" button on my Spot Satellite Beacon. Not a good situation.

 

Fortunately, I had my PN-40 in my pack. I did not have a waypoint for the other mine however. I just knew it was to the northwest and that it was next to an old train trestle, across from another set of mines.

 

First, let's assume I had my Garmin 60CSx instead. Here's what Garmin's topo maps showed of the target area...

 

 

Not very useful. I can see the western portal of the mine but there is no indication where the eastern adit is, nor any evidence of the other nearby mines. What if I had myotis' vaunted free topo maps for Garmin GPS receivers? Let's see...

 

 

Well heck, that's even worse! I'm coming to the conclusion that if I'd had my 60CSx, we would have been in big trouble. But, as we already know, I had my PN-40 and I'm still alive to type this so it must have turned out fine. The first thing I did with the PN-40 is take a look at the (much maligned) raster USGS quads that I had loaded...

 

 

Ah ha! There are the mine shafts and adits! In fact, the whole complex is clearly marked. All I had to do now is put a waypoint near one of the shafts and navigate right to the portal. However, I figured it wouldn't hurt to check what I saw against some aerial imagery to be sure. Why not? I had the data right there in my hand...

 

 

Bingo! I can see the trestle plain as day along with the ore bins of the other mine to the east. With my information confirmed, all I had to do was put in a waypoint and off we walked. We got to the mine and inside, out of the cold in no time at all.

 

This is a clear illustration of the benefits derived from having USGS quads and imagery on a handheld GPS receiver. To be fair, the DeLorme vector topo maps would have been no more useful that the Garmin maps. The Map Library subscription made the difference in this case.

 

Don't get me wrong. The PN-40 is far from perfect. The process to select and download maps and imagery is crude, tedious and cumbersome. It needs improvement. Topo isn't the best software in the world but it's not bad at all and easy (at least for me) to learn and use. Some of the buttons on my PN-40 are wearing off already while my two year old used and abused 60CSx looks great. However, DeLorme has shown their willingness to listed to owners and rapidly make changes and improvements based on user feedback. This has proven to be a huge bonus. The PN-40 lacks the fully shaded topo maps and 3D view of the Colorado and Oregon units. I think both those features would be very nice to have. Still, the PN-40 is an excellent unit and does things the Garmin units can't. It's also significantly less expensive.

 

I currently own both Garmin and DeLorme units. I've owned many others from a bunch of manufacturers. I consider myself to be brand agnostic. I feel I can rate receivers with a minimum of bias and identify both the good and the bad aspects of each. Many other (both here and on the DeLorme forums) are quite a bit more attached and emotionally involved with their products. Take what you read with that in mind.

[+embra]

DeLorme provides 24k vector topo maps for the entire U.S. with the PN-40 package.

That's a nice example of how the different data sets can work well in combination...but I have to correct you on this assertion (it's a mistake I made when I first started using TopoUSA, so you've got my company).

 

The Delorme topo data is based on a 1:100,000 data set. Because it is vectorized, it can interpolate additional contour intervals so it *looks* like the 1:24,000 sets, but it's making logical guesses rather than including observed detail--so sometimes it's wrong in the sense of leaving out a small knoll or dip.

 

That being said, Topo7 works well for my needs. I usually don't need the additional data, and when I do I can get it from the raster USGS quads. But the vector maps are not true 1:24000.

Edited February 27, 2009 by embra

[+user13371]

... DeLorme provides 24k vector topo maps for the entire U.S. with the PN-40 package. These maps work on Topo 7 as well as the PN-40. This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Co...

A couple of minor quibbles/corrections?

 

I'm pretty sure the Topo 7 package does NOT include 1:24K topo in the box. You can see a huge difference when you download the scanned USGS 1:24K maps from their data library; T7 looks more like 1:100K.

 

Also, Topo7 does not load vector data to the GPS - they're layered bitmaps for each zoom level. That's why the whole package (program and data) that installs on the PC comes on a single DVD-DL -- but it takes THREE of those for the "pre-cut" maps you can put on the GPS. I only keep NW Oregon and Western Washington T7 maps on my GPS for that reason.

Edited February 27, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Ahhhh, interesting. That makes DeLorme's marketing material a bit misleading. I wonder what the practical difference is? I didn't see much to set my Garmin topo maps and the DeLorme vector topo maps apart (at least on the 60CSx, I know they're better on the Colorado/Oregon).

 

In the interest of full disclosure, here are the PN-40 topo views of the same location...

 

 

So the PN-40 can only deal with raster data? That's very interesting (and seemingly ineffecient). They must overlay all the clickable points of interest, features and contour lines from another dataset. I guess that was their solution to dealing with two types of data. Quite a feat with routing, tracklogs and all involved. The updates are quick as well. I guess that's one of the reasons the PN-20 was so slow.

 

I have to apologize to myotis on that point. It seems he is indeed correct with regard to the installable topo maps.

 

Regardless, I stand corrected. Thanks for the information. I will leave the original post as is.

 

Mike

Edited February 27, 2009 by OpenTrackRacer

[+user13371]

If the maps are raster, what is DeLorme doing to enable "clickable" information and data overlays?

The data is raster; the displayed image is composed of multiple layers of that data.

[+user13371]

The Delorme topo data is based on a 1:100,000 data set. Because it is vectorized, it can interpolate additional contour intervals so it *looks* like the 1:24,000 sets, but it's making logical guesses rather than including observed detail--so sometimes it's wrong in the sense of leaving out a small knoll or dip.

Max, are you sure about that? T7 doesn't look even close to 1:24K data to me.

 

When you say "vectorized" do you just mean they've really converted all of the contour lines to vectors? Or just that they've got some DEM in it and are able to interpolate from that?

[+embra]

Delorme doesn't advertise that their topo data is 1:100000; I looked through their web site and couldn't see a specification anywhere (I may have missed it). But they do promote the USGS quads as 1:24000. I *think* i recall a Delorme employe explictly acknowledging the 1:100000 fact on the user forum.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

...I geocache but I also use my GPSr for exploring. I'm with a group that explores abandoned mines and also old mill sites and ghost towns. We were recently exploring near Death Valley. .....

Great travelogue, OTR. I got curious and located that on my Topo 7, right here. Sure is handy to have a full blown mapping application ready to use at a whim.

 

Then I got real nostalgic, been too long since I've been through Tecopa and the Kingstons.

[+myotis]

I was going to stay out of this thread but the continuous flow of biased and misleading information from myotis has forced my hand.

 

He would have you believe that the only 24k topo maps available for the PN-40 are raster USGS quads. This is untrue. DeLorme provides 24k vector topo maps for the entire U.S. with the PN-40 package. These maps work on Topo 7 as well as the PN-40. This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Colorado 400t units which only come with maps for the handheld. With the PN-40, you get all the same map coverage as you to with the Garmin 400t units plus Topo 7 to boot, all for less money as well mind you. This can be a huge benefit. Without having to purchase anything else (except the $30 per year Map Library subscription) I can use my notebook with it's big screen along with the PN-40 to see topo maps, USGS quads and aerial imagery in real time. It's not quote Google Earth but it's very good (and it works where there is no cellphone coverage). It's also very useful for trip planning, as well as reviewing track logs and routes.

 

Many geocachers have found the aerial imagery to be very useful, and others (mainly those who don't own a PN-20/40) have not. Now, I know this is the Geocaching forum but many people (like me) use the GPS receivers for other purposes as well. I've put together a little demonstration which starkly illustrates the advantages of the available maps and imagery sets on the PN-40.

 

I geocache but I also use my GPSr for exploring. I'm with a group that explores abandoned mines and also old mill sites and ghost towns. We were recently exploring near Death Valley. We entered a mine through it's eastern portal (adit) and exited it's western portal. Instead of going back, we decided to walk west on the surface to where another mine was located, enter it's eastern portal, walk through and come out to the west where we would be met. Our groups split and we headed towards the other mine around dusk. We knew roughly where it was but had never walked to it. As we proceeded, the fog started to roll in. It got dark, cold and the visibility was down to under fifty feet. We had no way to contact the rest of our group (too far for the radios and no cellphone coverage) and if we couldn't find the mine, I might be forced to hit the "Help" button on my Spot Satellite Beacon. Not a good situation.

 

Fortunately, I had my PN-40 in my pack. I did not have a waypoint for the other mine however. I just knew it was to the northwest and that it was next to an old train trestle, across from another set of mines.

 

First, let's assume I had my Garmin 60CSx instead. Here's what Garmin's topo maps showed of the target area...

 

 

Not very useful. I can see the western portal of the mine but there is no indication where the eastern adit is, nor any evidence of the other nearby mines. What if I had myotis' vaunted free topo maps for Garmin GPS receivers? Let's see...

 

 

Well heck, that's even worse! I'm coming to the conclusion that if I'd had my 60CSx, we would have been in big trouble. But, as we already know, I had my PN-40 and I'm still alive to type this so it must have turned out fine. The first thing I did with the PN-40 is take a look at the (much maligned) raster USGS quads that I had loaded...

 

 

Ah ha! There are the mine shafts and adits! In fact, the whole complex is clearly marked. All I had to do now is put a waypoint near one of the shafts and navigate right to the portal. However, I figured it wouldn't hurt to check what I saw against some aerial imagery to be sure. Why not? I had the data right there in my hand...

 

 

Bingo! I can see the trestle plain as day along with the ore bins of the other mine to the east. With my information confirmed, all I had to do was put in a waypoint and off we walked. We got to the mine and inside, out of the cold in no time at all.

 

This is a clear illustration of the benefits derived from having USGS quads and imagery on a handheld GPS receiver. To be fair, the DeLorme vector topo maps would have been no more useful that the Garmin maps. The Map Library subscription made the difference in this case.

 

Don't get me wrong. The PN-40 is far from perfect. The process to select and download maps and imagery is crude, tedious and cumbersome. It needs improvement. Topo isn't the best software in the world but it's not bad at all and easy (at least for me) to learn and use. Some of the buttons on my PN-40 are wearing off already while my two year old used and abused 60CSx looks great. However, DeLorme has shown their willingness to listed to owners and rapidly make changes and improvements based on user feedback. This has proven to be a huge bonus. The PN-40 lacks the fully shaded topo maps and 3D view of the Colorado and Oregon units. I think both those features would be very nice to have. Still, the PN-40 is an excellent unit and does things the Garmin units can't. It's also significantly less expensive.

 

I currently own both Garmin and DeLorme units. I've owned many others from a bunch of manufacturers. I consider myself to be brand agnostic. I feel I can rate receivers with a minimum of bias and identify both the good and the bad aspects of each. Many other (both here and on the DeLorme forums) are quite a bit more attached and emotionally involved with their products. Take what you read with that in mind.

 

I cannot make stuff out on these screen shots. The Delorome 24K topo is not clear enough for me to understnad what you are talking about. One of the many reasons why vector is so superior to raster is you can zoom way in or way out and everything is always crystal clear. And there is no need to set a waypoint with a vector map, everything on it is an object that you can tell the GPS to take you too. I also cannot make anything out on the aerial photos either. Can you post a screen shot with your track and waypoint-perhaps I could understand what you are talking about then.

 

As others have already mentioned your claim about 24K vector maps in the PN40 is simply not ture. I can also tell you there is a huge difference in 100K and 24K. In some places 100K are OK and in others they are totally useless. Besides the elevation data, the difference in the hydrologly data is night and day.

 

Your statement, "This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Colorado 400t units which only come with maps for the handheld." is a bit misleading too. But if I only had an itty bitty screen, I could understand the concern about only having data available on the GPS. But one of the nice things about the CO/OR is the screen size and how much you can see. You can also buy the CO/OR 200 or 300 for less than the 400T. Then you can buy TOPOUSA2008 and load it on a card on in internal memory. (The disadvangte to this is you cannot get the entire country loaded due to map segment limits.) But as you know the free 24K vector maps load in MapSource so you have them on your computer and GPS. If you want to do trip planning on the computer, you would use the 24K topos. You can also use GoogleEarth if you want to see your tracks or do trip planning. For example, it there is something I can see in GE that I want to add, it is real simple to add it as a vector on the Garmin.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Oh please. It's unbecoming to act so obtuse. It's also very obvious.

 

You can zoom in and out with DeLorme topo maps just like you can with Garmin or third party maps. From the users point of view, they function exactly the same. Speaking of which... so, you don't need a waypoint with a vector map eh? Why don't you take a second look at these topo map screen captures and tell me where the eastern adit of the mine is located?

 

Garmin topo map (60CSx):

 

 

Free gpsfiledepot topo map (60CSx):

 

 

If you're still trying, you can give up now. You can't find it because it's not marked. Neither are the associated shafts of the mine to the east. That means that the map is useless. However, if you take a second look at the USGS quads, you can clearly see both mines. If you can't find them, you must be very unfamiliar with USGS maps and their symbology.

 

 

In case you still can't find them, the pertinent symbols are and . You can see them even with the cursor in the way. Still, where is the trestle? Did the USGS get the mines in exactly the right spots? Why don't we take another look at the aerial imagery?

 

 

If you couldn't pick those out before, you must not spend much time working with Google Earth. No wonder you never see the need for aerial photography... you seem to have no idea how to employ or interpret it.

 

Last but not least, you blatantly show your bias once again by calling the PN-40's display "itty bitty". It's also blatantly on display when discount the lack of desktop mapping software (that you can also use in the field with your notebook) as no big deal since the Colorado/Oregon has such a huge screen. Oh please. The Colorado/Oregon screen really is "itty bitty" compared to the 15" or 17" display on most notebooks.

 

I don't know why I'm bothering with this. I suppose it could be helpful for other users but they already know you're a Garmin fanboy so I'm sure most users take that into account. Maybe their opinion is tempered by know about all the time you've spent in the field with a PN-40, comparing it to your Colorado. Oh wait, nevermind...

 

I cannot make stuff out on these screen shots. The Delorome 24K topo is not clear enough for me to understnad what you are talking about. One of the many reasons why vector is so superior to raster is you can zoom way in or way out and everything is always crystal clear. And there is no need to set a waypoint with a vector map, everything on it is an object that you can tell the GPS to take you too. I also cannot make anything out on the aerial photos either. Can you post a screen shot with your track and waypoint-perhaps I could understand what you are talking about then.

 

As others have already mentioned your claim about 24K vector maps in the PN40 is simply not ture. I can also tell you there is a huge difference in 100K and 24K. In some places 100K are OK and in others they are totally useless. Besides the elevation data, the difference in the hydrologly data is night and day.

 

Your statement, "This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Colorado 400t units which only come with maps for the handheld." is a bit misleading too. But if I only had an itty bitty screen, I could understand the concern about only having data available on the GPS. But one of the nice things about the CO/OR is the screen size and how much you can see. You can also buy the CO/OR 200 or 300 for less than the 400T. Then you can buy TOPOUSA2008 and load it on a card on in internal memory. (The disadvangte to this is you cannot get the entire country loaded due to map segment limits.) But as you know the free 24K vector maps load in MapSource so you have them on your computer and GPS. If you want to do trip planning on the computer, you would use the 24K topos. You can also use GoogleEarth if you want to see your tracks or do trip planning. For example, it there is something I can see in GE that I want to add, it is real simple to add it as a vector on the Garmin.

[+user13371]

I gotta say OTR, in this case it must really help to know what you're look for, and what you're looking at.

 

I can make out the symbols on the topo map, but in the DeLorme screen shots you gave AND in Google Earth -- I'd be hard pressed to identify the trestle and the bins even after you told me what they are. So I'd cut M. (and anyone else) some slack about not being able to see what you're talking about.

 

But I do agree with two basic points: Aerial imagery can be useful, and a well annotated map is better than just a bunch of lines -- whether they're drawn as vectors or bitmaps. File this under obvious.

Edited February 28, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Oh, it absolutely helps to know what you're looking for. That goes for aerial imagery on a GPS or in Google Earth. Beyond the obvious, effective use of photo imagery requires proper interpretation. However, with a little knowledge, it's a very powerful tool. With that in mind, the user's ignorance doesn't detract from the innate usefulness of the data (or device).

Edited February 28, 2009 by OpenTrackRacer

[+RRLover]

Fast edit, mine woulda too.

 

Norm

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

Last but not least, you blatantly show your bias once again by calling the PN-40's display "itty bitty". It's also blatantly on display when discount the lack of desktop mapping software (that you can also use in the field with your notebook) as no big deal since the Colorado/Oregon has such a huge screen. Oh please. The Colorado/Oregon screen really is "itty bitty" compared to the 15" or 17" display on most notebooks.

 

Absolutely thighslapping, is it not, OTR? Afer a 4 decade career as a professional engineer, having written scores of technical documents and having read hundreds, I have neither used nor read such a highly descriptive term.

 

Advice to jobseekers: If you are looking for a technical position requiring writing skills, prepare your resume with a liberal sprinkling of itty bitty!

Edited February 28, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

[+myotis]

Oh please. It's unbecoming to act so obtuse. It's also very obvious.

 

You can zoom in and out with DeLorme topo maps just like you can with Garmin or third party maps. From the users point of view, they function exactly the same. Speaking of which... so, you don't need a waypoint with a vector map eh? Why don't you take a second look at these topo map screen captures and tell me where the eastern adit of the mine is located?

 

Garmin topo map (60CSx):

 

 

Free gpsfiledepot topo map (60CSx):

 

 

If you're still trying, you can give up now. You can't find it because it's not marked. Neither are the associated shafts of the mine to the east. That means that the map is useless. However, if you take a second look at the USGS quads, you can clearly see both mines. If you can't find them, you must be very unfamiliar with USGS maps and their symbology.

 

 

In case you still can't find them, the pertinent symbols are and . You can see them even with the cursor in the way. Still, where is the trestle? Did the USGS get the mines in exactly the right spots? Why don't we take another look at the aerial imagery?

 

 

If you couldn't pick those out before, you must not spend much time working with Google Earth. No wonder you never see the need for aerial photography... you seem to have no idea how to employ or interpret it.

 

Last but not least, you blatantly show your bias once again by calling the PN-40's display "itty bitty". It's also blatantly on display when discount the lack of desktop mapping software (that you can also use in the field with your notebook) as no big deal since the Colorado/Oregon has such a huge screen. Oh please. The Colorado/Oregon screen really is "itty bitty" compared to the 15" or 17" display on most notebooks.

 

I don't know why I'm bothering with this. I suppose it could be helpful for other users but they already know you're a Garmin fanboy so I'm sure most users take that into account. Maybe their opinion is tempered by know about all the time you've spent in the field with a PN-40, comparing it to your Colorado. Oh wait, nevermind...

 

I cannot make stuff out on these screen shots. The Delorome 24K topo is not clear enough for me to understnad what you are talking about. One of the many reasons why vector is so superior to raster is you can zoom way in or way out and everything is always crystal clear. And there is no need to set a waypoint with a vector map, everything on it is an object that you can tell the GPS to take you too. I also cannot make anything out on the aerial photos either. Can you post a screen shot with your track and waypoint-perhaps I could understand what you are talking about then.

 

As others have already mentioned your claim about 24K vector maps in the PN40 is simply not ture. I can also tell you there is a huge difference in 100K and 24K. In some places 100K are OK and in others they are totally useless. Besides the elevation data, the difference in the hydrologly data is night and day.

 

Your statement, "This is in stark contrast to the Garmin Oregon and Colorado 400t units which only come with maps for the handheld." is a bit misleading too. But if I only had an itty bitty screen, I could understand the concern about only having data available on the GPS. But one of the nice things about the CO/OR is the screen size and how much you can see. You can also buy the CO/OR 200 or 300 for less than the 400T. Then you can buy TOPOUSA2008 and load it on a card on in internal memory. (The disadvangte to this is you cannot get the entire country loaded due to map segment limits.) But as you know the free 24K vector maps load in MapSource so you have them on your computer and GPS. If you want to do trip planning on the computer, you would use the 24K topos. You can also use GoogleEarth if you want to see your tracks or do trip planning. For example, it there is something I can see in GE that I want to add, it is real simple to add it as a vector on the Garmin.

 

You say, "You can zoom in and out with DeLorme topo maps just like you can with Garmin or third party maps." Prove it, show me a nice clear map at a 20 foot zoom level-or lets see one of the USGS maps at a zoom level of 100 feet. The problem is raster maps pixulate when you zoom in that far. Garmin maps are nice and sharp at any zoom level.

 

Your story is still not making sense to me. I look at the distance involved and the landscape and I don't see how the PN40 saved you. Can you post a screen shot with your track so I can try to figure out what you are talking about. Looking at the actual USGS map on my desktop (it is still hard to make stuff out on the desktop as that map is simply not clear!) and looking at the landscape on GE, your story does not add up. Can you post a screen shot of your track file so I can see where you were going?

 

Even with you telling me what it is, none of those screen shots are clear enough to me to make anything out. Since the CO will also display aerial photography/USGS 24K maps-but with its screen it shows twice as much as the PN40, I decided to see if the Delorome’s screen was the issue. So I loaded (I did not use mapwell) the aerial photos (from ExpertGPS) on my CO. Here are the results:

 

 

Yep you are right-I am biased against itty bitty screens. When you have used an itty bitty screen on a GPS for over a decade and have had the joy of using the CO's nice big screen, it is hard not to be biased against obviously inferior technology!

 

Hey, if all I had was an itty bitty screen on my GPS, I would also feel the need to carry a laptop with me. I used to before I got the CO and it was a royal pain-It is so nice not to have to do that any more. Garmin has desktop software too-you seem to be discounting it. You can also purchase ExpertGPS for $50 that allows you to access free USGS topo 24 and 100K maps and aerial photos. It also automatically downloads what you need in real time. If carrying a laptop is such a good solution, why do you have the PN40? Why not use your laptop?

[Grasscatcher]

DUH !........If the GPS users don't save waypoints along the track at important points, or other points that they may want to go back to, then they are collectively wearing their heads on the wrong end of their body(s).

 

Oh no......., we must endlessly argue over whose miniture TV has the prettiest pictures!

 

Bah-Humbug ! Used properly, even a mapless GPS would get you safely back, or, Heaven forbid, ever hear of a paper map & compass?

[+Hrethgir]

This thread is getting stupid. Myotis like his CO and Garmins, we like our PN-40's; it's like arguing politics or religion, we'll never change anyone elses mind, just let it die already. The original poster already made up his mind, so this is just a big pissing match now. Anyways, I'm out.

[+user13371]

DUH !...

Bravo! Well Said! Thank You!

 

Could the fanboys and koolaid drinkers on BOTH sides PLEASE concede all the obvious points that they are both trying to make:

 

- You can see more at one time on a big screen than a small one

- An annotated map can be better than one that isn't - if you know what you're looking at

- If you don't know what you're looking at, the screen size and imagery type won't matter

- Bitmap images (like aerial photos) can be useful in some cases

- Vector images (like street maps and detailed topo contours) can be useful in some cases

 

File it all under OBVIOUS, stop trying to gouge each others eyes out, and move on to ANYTHING else? PLEASE?

 

I would be DELIGHTED to find something new, useful, and relevant in this or any thread around here

 

NB: I own a DeLorme PN40, a Garmin eTrex Legend HCx, an iPhone, and a Blackberry 8820. I've owned a bunch of others over the years too. None of them are perfect for every conceivable GPS use. There's no percentage in trying to evangelize to me for any of them.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

At this point, I think Lee and HondaH8ter are right. I was going to reply but it's pointless.

 

I did something that I should have done a long time ago with regard to myotis. I now know two things that make this type of "discussion" pointless. He spends a lot of time making maps for Garmin units. He has a very vested interest in the brand. He's also a professional agitator. He lives for this sort of thing (especially when he can evangelize about his cause). No contrary point of view is going to make a difference.

 

I do want to take a second and respond to Grasscatcher. Tracklogs and waypoints are great but sort of useless if you've been traveling underground for the last six hours. Informative maps and imagery are very helpful when you go somewhere you didn't plan. I had to navigate to something that was not on our itinerary. Having all the maps in the GPSr was a key factor. Yes, we could have used our compass to navigate back to the road and then back to camp. It would have taken hours. It was dark, very cold and foggy and we were dressed for the 60 degree average temperature of the mines. Was walking alone to the other mine a bad move? Probably, but it was too late to second guess about it by then.

[Grasscatcher]

In less time that it took to make your forum response, you could have looked back on your breadcrumb tracklog and found where you lost signal at the mine entrance , ( even if you didn't do it before like you should have) made a waypoint there, and navigated to it ......

 

Even in total darkness, no pictures, no maps, whatever!........only common sense and minimal intelligence.

[+user13371]

...He's also a professional agitator....

I don't think anyone gets paid to agitate around here. If one COULD, I'd change jobs in a heartbeat

[+OpenTrackRacer]

He doesn't get paid to agitate here... it's his day job!

 

Sorry Grasscatcher, you're running your fingers with insufficient knowledge. Going back to the mine we emerged from would only accomplish one thing... getting us out of the cold. It would not solve the bigger problems of getting back to camp or meeting our ride. If we'd been forced to call for assistance with the Spot, that's where we would have gone. Avoiding that was the goal.

Edited February 28, 2009 by OpenTrackRacer

[+myotis]

At this point, I think Lee and HondaH8ter are right. I was going to reply but it's pointless.

 

I did something that I should have done a long time ago with regard to myotis. I now know two things that make this type of "discussion" pointless. He spends a lot of time making maps for Garmin units. He has a very vested interest in the brand. He's also a professional agitator. He lives for this sort of thing (especially when he can evangelize about his cause). No contrary point of view is going to make a difference.

 

I do want to take a second and respond to Grasscatcher. Tracklogs and waypoints are great but sort of useless if you've been traveling underground for the last six hours. Informative maps and imagery are very helpful when you go somewhere you didn't plan. I had to navigate to something that was not on our itinerary. Having all the maps in the GPSr was a key factor. Yes, we could have used our compass to navigate back to the road and then back to camp. It would have taken hours. It was dark, very cold and foggy and we were dressed for the 60 degree average temperature of the mines. Was walking alone to the other mine a bad move? Probably, but it was too late to second guess about it by then.

 

I can see how you would conclude it is pointless - you keep making stuff up and calling me names and baseless accusing me of some bias in response instead of showing anything I am saying is not true. Your latest accusation is laughable and is showing desperation! 99% of my map making time is spent making trail maps for Garmins. But I have also spent the time to export the trails I have for all of IL/MO (about 7,000) in a format the Delorme can import in response to requests from DeLorome users. But you say that shows I am biased!

 

Your name calling, accusations of bias, and making stuff up add to my disbelief of your story of being save from having to use your distress device. Your claim about 24 K vector topo was not true. Nor is this claim, "You can zoom in and out with DeLorme topo maps just like you can with Garmin or third party maps. From the users point of view, they function exactly the same." I suspect the reason why you did not respond to my request that you prove it-is you know it is not true. The problem with zooming is not the PN40, it is simply the reality of what a raster is: it tells where dots are and what color they are. If you zoom in the dots don't get smaller, they pixiluate and you cannot see anything. You also have problems zooming out because if you zoom out to far it is a blab that cannot be read. Vectors are directions on how to draw a line or where a point is. So when you zoom way in the GPS can draw a straight clear line. With vectors the GPS can use different contour intervals at different zoom levels. So say if you zoomed out to .5 miles and had a 10 foot contour interval, it would be a meaningless blob. So when it is zoomed out that far, it uses a much bigger contour interval. So you can get clear maps at any zoom level. And the amazing thing is a vector map can do this in 1/120 the disk space required for a Delorome 24K topo.

 

Here are some examples, once again, lets see you do this with a Delorome 24K topo:

 

 

Edited March 1, 2009 by myotis

[+user13371]

I am not a moderator -- so feel free to report me to a real moderator if you think I'm out of line.

 

OpenTrackRacer and Myotis: GIVE IT A REST.

 

OTR: Professional agitator? Vested interest? Some word choices go past a vague "fanboy" jibe and may be considered libel -- by implying an improper financial motive.

 

Myotis: If you can't make a point it in 100 words or less without repeating yourself and insulting folks, you wasting your time and everyone's bandwidth. And stop replayng huge chunks of the whole thread in every single message.

 

Anyone? Got something new to say that fits the thread's title? Without repeating something that's already been said in this thread or just throwing punches at each other? Bring it on. Otherwise, go to a neutral corner.

 

Again, feel free to report me to a moderator for speaking out of turn. Nothing would make me happier than to see this whole thread get locked down and or deleted.

Edited March 1, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Settle down there Lee. No one is forcing you to continue reading or participating in this thread. I've said nothing even remotely libelous. A little research can be very enlightening however.

 

Name calling myotis? I don't think I've done anything of the sort. As I said to Lee, a little research can reveal enlightening details. You may choose to disbelieve the information about exploring and employing the GPS if you desire. Your belief or disbelief has no impact on the facts.

 

I'm afraid I'm not going to continue engaging you on this myotis. I've said all there is to say. Your refusal to look at the information and process it makes putting more effort in pointless. If you want to answer your questions, all the information is already posted including Garmin topos, gpsfiledepot topos, DeLorme topos (at multiple zoom levels) and USGS topos, all of the same location.

 

Oh hell, I'll even repost the DeLorme topos from the PN-40, just to help you out...

 

 

Two zoom levels. You can feel free to point out to the other readers where the pixelation is.

[+myotis]

DUH !...

Bravo! Well Said! Thank You!

 

Could the fanboys and koolaid drinkers on BOTH sides PLEASE concede all the obvious points that they are both trying to make:

 

- You can see more at one time on a big screen than a small one

- An annotated map can be better than one that isn't - if you know what you're looking at

- If you don't know what you're looking at, the screen size and imagery type won't matter

- Bitmap images (like aerial photos) can be useful in some cases

- Vector images (like street maps and detailed topo contours) can be useful in some cases

 

File it all under OBVIOUS, stop trying to gouge each others eyes out, and move on to ANYTHING else? PLEASE?

 

I would be DELIGHTED to find something new, useful, and relevant in this or any thread around here

 

NB: I own a DeLorme PN40, a Garmin eTrex Legend HCx, an iPhone, and a Blackberry 8820. I've owned a bunch of others over the years too. None of them are perfect for every conceivable GPS use. There's no percentage in trying to evangelize to me for any of them.

 

While I will say almost always, a 24K vector map will give you what you need there are some limited circumstances of where a raster or aerial could give you useful info that you could not obtain in the 24K vector. Delorome and Garmin can use aerial or raster maps and it is not simple in either-but it is easier in DeLorome. But it in trip planning it is easy to take what you need from a raster map or aerial and add it as a vector in a Garmin.

 

I take issue with this statement, "- Vector images (like street maps and detailed topo contours) can be useful in some cases" as I think this is a major advantage of the Garmin over the Delorome

 

I think few would argue that for off road use, 24K top is the standard and most important tool. But Delorome's 24K topos are raster and Garmin's are vector. Garmins are simple to download and install-much easier and faster than Delorome. Delorome 24K topos also take 120 times as much space as Garmin 24K Vectors. On another thread it was reported it took 23 gigs to load the state of Nevada in 24K topo on the PN40. On GPSfiledepot, there are some maps that cover the lower half of the continental US. The entire Southern half of the USA in 24K vector takes less than 3 gigs! Besides the obvious advantage of size and being able to not have to trip plan and always have what you need on your GPS, vectors have many other advantages over rasters. Yes there can be a few instances where there may be something on the raster that is not on the vector, but I do not see how a reasonable person could claim Delorome maps are better. That notion is absurd.

 

Why I keep responding is I see misrepresentations like the Delorome 24K topos are the best thing since sliced bread and no info on their drawbacks.

 

But when I try to make sure people have an accurate information, the most common response is I am biased. But no proof or rational basis of bias is ever shown. It is like if you do not think the PN40 is the best thing since sliced toast you are biased. But I have owned 2 Delorome GPSs, lots of their software (and have always really liked their products, have owned and used numerous GPSs dating back to 1997, have looked at, held, used, and compared the PN40, and when the CO first came out I blasted Garmin on these forums countless times, and before Garmin fixed the problems with the CO when I gave people advice on it, I always told them what the problems were. But I am just biased and all these Delorome Beta testers have no bias!

[+myotis]

 

Two zoom levels. You can feel free to point out to the other readers where the pixelation is.

 

You claimed, "You can zoom in and out with DeLorme topo maps just like you can with Garmin or third party maps. From the users point of view, they function exactly the same."

 

Yes the Delorome can have some limited zooming without pixilation. Your zoom levels are 320 feet and 640 feet. Once again, lets see you show a clear map at a 20 foot or .5 mile zoom. Garmins can have a clear map at ANY zoom level and if you were not making stuff up again you could show me a nice clear map at a 20 foot zoom level and .5 mile zoom level. Rasters cannot do this, that is one of their limitations. Additionally, the 24K maps are a picture so the contour interval cannot possibly change to be appropriate to the zoom level. When you zoom in and out on the garmin the contour interval changes. Your claim is simply not true!

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Darn it! I said I wouldn't, I said I wouldn't!

 

I'm going to reply based on the belief from his latest posts that myotis is not being purposely obtuse and is really missing a fundamental difference in data types.

 

I believe that you are indeed confusing data types. The PN-40 supports multiple types of maps and imagery. When we refer to DeLorme topo maps, we are referring to standard "wireframe" topo maps. They look just like the topo maps used by Garmin or available on gpsfiledepot. They are routeable and contain points of interest along with contour lines. They are not huge.

 

Here is an example of a DeLorme topo map and a Garmin topo map of the same location at similar zoom levels (first the Garmin, then the DeLorme)...

 

 

It seems you are confusing the scanned raster based USGS quads with DeLorme's in-house topo map products. USGS quads take up a lot more room. It's not 24GB for the state of Nevada however. That sounds like another type of data. Regardless, it is much bigger than DeLorme or Garmin topos. However, they are very useful and show things that Garmin and DeLorme maps do not.

 

The DeLorme topos can be zoomed to any level, just like the Garmin topos. They are functionally identical.

 

Does that make sense?

[+myotis]

No it does not becuase Delorome's vector data is not 24K. Delorome's 24K data is raster. Garmin's 24K data is vector-huge difference. And I am still waiting for you to show me a screen shot at a 20 foot zoom level. Also the Garmin map you are showing is Garmin's old 100K topo maps-the weird contour interval gives it away.

 

Here is where the 23 gig figure for NV comes from-it is for the 24K topos

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=3843309

[robertlipe]

Moderator's note: Have to go a bit with Lee here. Less sniping and personal feuding would make this a more readable thread.

[+user13371]

...(Delorme's map data) are not huge.

Huge is not a technical term. But DeLorme's map data do take up a lot more space than Garmin's for any given area of coverage.

 

The Topo7 data files for the US take up 4.53 GB of disk space. Exported to the GPS would take 20.80 GB. And what's in the box is the most "compact" data you can get from DeLorme -- every other type of imagery downloadable from the subscription service is larger for a given amount of square mile coverage.

 

Embra and I exchanged notes with another user about this who wanted all of Michigan in USGS 1:24K topos from DeLorme -- we estimated Michigan's topos would take over 20GB alone: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=3847695. And those downloaded maps are scanned images that become pixelated at high zoom levels.

 

I'm not saying DeLorme's material isn't useful -- but I'd concede the point about "bitmaps" and "huge" to M. and move on to something else.

 

Got anything new on this subject?

Edited March 1, 2009 by lee_rimar