Delorme PN-40 My experience thusfar

January 5, 2009

Lets try this again

Well Santa did bring me a PN-40 for Christmas and I have been putting quite a bit of time since in learning to navigate T7, move caches to the GPS (Thanks for the Tutorial Embra), and learning to download (cut) color imagery from my area into the GPS. I have used the PN-40 daily (have a current 491 day caching streak) and on Saturday used it most of the day (had to go back to 60 on the way home due to waypoint loading limits)at a cache machine where we found 65 caches. I just wanted to share some of my experiences in using the PN-40. Please keep in mind that some of my observations are probably related to learning how to use the GPS and others are what I have found to be issues related to the functionality of the GPS. Any guidance anyone can give me would be appreciated. FYI I am using update 2.4123299. I have owned and used the Garmin 60cs, Colorado, Oregon (wife’s current GPS), and currently I have a 60csx.

I will start with T7, I had a heck of a time getting through the learning curve of this software. I was able to work it out but it is a time consuming process and the user guide is hard to understand and is not clear when talking about “cutting” map information and other topics. I think I pretty well get it but it will be effort whenever I have to download a new area. The color imagery is awesome and worth the time it takes to download it. The grid areas are small and with the limits on download file sizes it takes quite a bit of downloading to get things done. I think a good way of doing this will be to download different areas onto smaller SD cards for use when in a specific area rather than trying to keep too much information on the GPS or one big SD card. It appears that having too much information on the GPS slows it down.

Whenever routing to a cache (using imagery) and changing the zoom level from 640 to 320 or from 320 to 160 the redraw rates are slow taking 30 to 45 seconds to complete the redraw.

The GPS locked up five times during the cache machine. This appeared to be associated with having the GPS plugged into power and shutting the car off and then restarting it. Each lock up required pulling the battery to reset the GPS.

There is a lot of button pushing to route to a cache moving from find, address screen, menu, find menu, waypoints, cache. Maybe I am missing a more direct way to do this.

I like the ability to alter coordinates of a cache without having to create an additional waypoint. The way of changing numbers in this way is simple and direct. This is a pleasant feature for multi, and puzzle caches. Garmin could learn something from you on this one.

While I wish the GPS would auto re-route when you go off course the back on track feature only takes a couple of button pushes to use.

What I don’t see is a quick way to change from route to direct when you get close to a cache. I have had to reload the cache (start over) to achieve this. Perhaps this will be a feature of cache register when it is available.

When trying to move the cursor over an object such as a cache you have to be very precise to get the object to open. I am not sure what this is based on (pixel count, etc, ?) but I had a hard time opening caches from the map.

The orange color of the routing line does not stand out very well as far as contrast to the normal map. Maybe it is just because I am coming from a Garmin perspective but I think there could be a better contrast color for the route line.

I am not going to discuss accuracy because anything within three meters works for me and there are just too many variables to accuracy. If you totally depend on your GPS to put you on top of GZ and find the cache you will not find many caches. We find most of our caches counting on the GPS to get us close and then (use the force) work it out from there. The one thing I can say is that the PN-40 consistently has lost satellite lock before my 60-csx in similar surroundings. Yes I had the units side by side for this comparison and also saw satellite loss from the PN-40 where I know my 60 to keep sat lock.

After caching for a while I was trying to route to a cache and a message came up that I could not route because routes were full and I needed to delete some in order to route again. I did not know routes were being saved. I found the delete all routes and problem solved.

It will be nice to have the 800 character limit removed. I noticed this the most with earth caches which have longer descriptions that you have to be able to read in order to answer questions associated with finding the cache.

The final comment that I have is that of the 1000 waypoint limit. I have not seen in any of the forums a solid number of what will be supported. Garmin did not change from 1000 to 2000 for the Colorado for a while. I have used Garmin’s POI loader to have unlimited caches on my Colorado (that was the only way to do it when it came out as it did not support caches at all) and currently for my 60csx. I would like to know if something like that will be supported or better yet there be no limit imposed. I am sure that as with Garmin this is something worked out between Groundspeak and Delorme and not completely your decision. In any event, with tons of memory available there does not appear to be a reason to restrict the GPS to 1000 waypoints.

I enjoy using this GPS and the screen size has not been an issue. The PN-40 is much brighter than the 60 and of course has better resolution. The rechargeable battery is awesome and charging it while in the GPS is a great feature. The RAM mount is about as solid as you can get and gives you total control of positioning the GPS where you want it.

The buttons are good but I don’t like where the power button is as I find myself hitting it a lot unintentionally. I am sure I will get used to this over time. I think the PN-40 is pretty solid but I have not had that aha moment that has me totally sold yet. I am hoping that the cache register program is out soon before my 30 days are up as that will be where I make my final decision if I am going to keep the PN-40 or not.

Thanks to Delorme for all of your efforts in the forums here and in Groundspeak. Your positive involvement in listening to your customers and potential customers is outstanding and a great example of what a company should do in support of their products.

9.5k · January 6, 2009

There is a system setting to change to auto re-route. It is disabled by default.

You discovered the Routing feature saves a route, the fastest way to go from Road(trail) to Direct and vice verse is to go to the route page and change the selection in the actual route. Make sure you manage your routes so the list stays small. This will end up being quicker than scrolling through or doing a search for the waypoint.

January 6, 2009

I think I found it, made changes and will see how that works, thanks

There is a system setting to change to auto re-route. It is disabled by default.

You discovered the Routing feature saves a route, the fastest way to go from Road(trail) to Direct and vice verse is to go to the route page and change the selection in the actual route. Make sure you manage your routes so the list stays small. This will end up being quicker than scrolling through or doing a search for the waypoint.

January 6, 2009

Was going to answer a couple of these, regarding map size vs. redraw time and the hot spot on the cache icon. But embra nailed them, along with a couple of others, in your cross-post in the Delorme forums.

http://forums.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?t=16995

January 6, 2009

...

The final comment that I have is that of the 1000 waypoint limit. I have not seen in any of the forums a solid number of what will be supported. Garmin did not change from 1000 to 2000 for the Colorado for a while. I have used Garmin’s POI loader to have unlimited caches on my Colorado (that was the only way to do it when it came out as it did not support caches at all) and currently for my 60csx. I would like to know if something like that will be supported or better yet there be no limit imposed. I am sure that as with Garmin this is something worked out between Groundspeak and Delorme and not completely your decision. In any event, with tons of memory available there does not appear to be a reason to restrict the GPS to 1000 waypoints.

..

While Garmin has the limit on the number of active geocaches you can have in the Colorado (and Oregon) at one time, they also support storing more caches on the unit in a standard GPX file format as long as they are not in the "active cache" directory. I place over 9000 geocaches on my Garmin Colorado 300 and am able to use them all with minimal issues. I do this by storing the GPX files all on the SD card. I separate them by geographic region (state/county in my case). When I find myself leaving one region and entering another, I can remove the SD card from the GPSr and move a few files around and withing a minute or two, be back caching with a new region loaded in the GPSr.

If the PN-40 (or PN-20 for that matter) would allow you to store geocaches on your SD card, you could use this same technique to work around that 1000 waypoint limit by exporting the data to the card, then rename and repeat. This would be made even easier if the PN-40 didn't require the use of T7 to load the geocache data onto the unit. I had inquired with Delorme about this when I was considering getting one of their units, and they told me that their units wouldn't fit my needs. I give them a lot of credit for their honesty and not trying to push me into something that doesn't fit my style. For that reason, I will keep them in mind when I am ready to upgrade and maybe they will support more than 1000 waypoints by then.

Edited January 6, 2009 by GeekBoy.from.Illinois

2.1k · January 6, 2009

The PN-40 allows "unlimited" waypoints in their draw layers. Think of them as custom POI.

5.3k · January 6, 2009

Big quote marks around the unlimited part...you can put a large number of POIs into a draw layer, but sending it to the PN-40 requires a much greater restriction on geographic area than I had originally hoped. Unless you've got your POIs concentrated in a fairly small area, it requires too many draw layers to be practical.

January 7, 2009

Thanks to Embra and others (on both sites) for your help. One of the first things that came to mind was using smaller bites of the color imagery on a smaller SD card (1GB from what has been pointed out) and on the same card loading up to 1k of caches within that area. 1GB SD cards are cheap and this also helps with the redraw rates by having a smaller area of complex information to redraw. I am gathering that there may be a problem with this solution from the T7 side of things, is that accurate?

It sounds like some of this may be worked out in the caching upgrade but it also sounds like non-disclusure will keep those secrets a bit longer. The only thing I will say about that is for those of us making the decision about keeping the PN-40 I hope that Delorme might acknowledge that pending the upgrade, the ability to return the unit be extended past the 30 days to allow for working things out after the upgrade is made available. I hope that came out right, I am not suggesting that the upgrade be rushed as much as the return part. I purchased the SE direct from Delorme so that is what I am getting at.

2.1k · January 7, 2009

I found a substantial reduction in redraw/refresh time when I reduced file size from 1.6GB to around 1GB on a 16GB SDHC card. Others have observed similiar. I'm not sure that I'm correctly interpreting the speed vs. size consideration, so allow me to note (although it may not be applicable):

I am not aware that working a 0.8GB file on a 1GB card is faster than working the same file as one of many on a 16GB card. It may be so, I just can't recall having heard such, if I did.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

9.5k · January 7, 2009

Thanks to Embra and others (on both sites) for your help. One of the first things that came to mind was using smaller bites of the color imagery on a smaller SD card (1GB from what has been pointed out) and on the same card loading up to 1k of caches within that area. 1GB SD cards are cheap and this also helps with the redraw rates by having a smaller area of complex information to redraw. I am gathering that there may be a problem with this solution from the T7 side of things, is that accurate?

It sounds like some of this may be worked out in the caching upgrade but it also sounds like non-disclusure will keep those secrets a bit longer. The only thing I will say about that is for those of us making the decision about keeping the PN-40 I hope that Delorme might acknowledge that pending the upgrade, the ability to return the unit be extended past the 30 days to allow for working things out after the upgrade is made available. I hope that came out right, I am not suggesting that the upgrade be rushed as much as the return part. I purchased the SE direct from Delorme so that is what I am getting at.

Be sure you understand, you can do POI's on the card. Waypoints still go on internal memory.

As for the 30 day return, that's pretty standard and you can't say you didn't know up front what you were buying into. The information on this GPS is pretty extensive both on the forums as well as the commercial site. Asking them to extend their risk is IMO, pie in the sky.

1.2k · January 7, 2009

The PN-40 allows "unlimited" waypoints in their draw layers. Think of them as custom POI.

Let us not forget that, until we can get an update, comments are not transferred like they are with a waypoint. Hopefully soon we will have that ability.

January 7, 2009

Thanks to Embra and others (on both sites) for your help. One of the first things that came to mind was using smaller bites of the color imagery on a smaller SD card (1GB from what has been pointed out) and on the same card loading up to 1k of caches within that area. 1GB SD cards are cheap and this also helps with the redraw rates by having a smaller area of complex information to redraw. I am gathering that there may be a problem with this solution from the T7 side of things, is that accurate?

It sounds like some of this may be worked out in the caching upgrade but it also sounds like non-disclusure will keep those secrets a bit longer. The only thing I will say about that is for those of us making the decision about keeping the PN-40 I hope that Delorme might acknowledge that pending the upgrade, the ability to return the unit be extended past the 30 days to allow for working things out after the upgrade is made available. I hope that came out right, I am not suggesting that the upgrade be rushed as much as the return part. I purchased the SE direct from Delorme so that is what I am getting at.

Embra is talking about the map creation process when saving large numbers of points as a map rather than transferring them as waypoints to the device. If the points you are trying to save cover a large geographic area you will need to save several smaller maps rather than one large map. It will take a little more time to select things but otherwise will work correctly on your device. I'd rather have an easy selection process too but this use case has grown beyond what we anticipated during initial development. It's on our list to work on...

Your extended return request is well outside what I'm able to speak on; I'll pass the request through though. I can answer any questions people have about what's going to be available in the firmware update... I'll add to that a strong confidence that you're going to be pleased with the improvements. I think we have some very exciting features that are very close to being released. We certainly appreciate all of the patience we're seeing from our customers as we work to bring our Geocaching.com Initiative together.

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

January 7, 2009

So, what can we expect to see in the next firmware update? Is there going to be an update for both the 20 and 40? and will the cache registry be released and compatible with both? I received my 40 before the holidays and once the weather clears up i can't wait to get out and play.

2.1k · January 7, 2009

So, what can we expect to see in the next firmware update? Is there going to be an update for both the 20 and 40? and will the cache registry be released and compatible with both? I received my 40 before the holidays and once the weather clears up i can't wait to get out and play.

When it's ready.

http://blog.delorme.com/2008/11/11/geocach...the-mac-and-pc/

January 8, 2009

Trust me, i've already read through the blog and the delorme forums. I echo the sentiments of many that I would rather receive the update right then sooner. I do have things like work to keep me occupied in the meantime. :unsure:

January 8, 2009

Bpcooper14: Dakboy's link does show the features that we're working on. We've added Field Notes since the blog post went up, a nice feature provided by GC.com. We're going to finish the PN-40 effort and then look at all of the features and do careful planning for the PN-20. We need to consider performance differences between the two devices as well as sensor differences. We are planning to update the PN-20, it will be a big effort since so much has gone into the PN-40, we want to make sure we get everything right. The Cache Register will be compatible with both devices, as will the Send to GPS functionality. I'm glad to hear that you received a PN-40, let me know if you have any questions about the device as you get time to try it out.

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

8.3k · January 8, 2009

Bpcooper14: Dakboy's link does show the features that we're working on. We've added Field Notes since the blog post went up, a nice feature provided by GC.com. We're going to finish the PN-40 effort and then look at all of the features and do careful planning for the PN-20. We need to consider performance differences between the two devices as well as sensor differences. We are planning to update the PN-20, it will be a big effort since so much has gone into the PN-40, we want to make sure we get everything right. The Cache Register will be compatible with both devices, as will the Send to GPS functionality. I'm glad to hear that you received a PN-40, let me know if you have any questions about the device as you get time to try it out.

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Will there ever be any hope for a GPSbabel compatible interface?

Jim

2.1k · January 8, 2009

Bpcooper14: Dakboy's link does show the features that we're working on. We've added Field Notes since the blog post went up, a nice feature provided by GC.com. We're going to finish the PN-40 effort and then look at all of the features and do careful planning for the PN-20. We need to consider performance differences between the two devices as well as sensor differences. We are planning to update the PN-20, it will be a big effort since so much has gone into the PN-40, we want to make sure we get everything right. The Cache Register will be compatible with both devices, as will the Send to GPS functionality. I'm glad to hear that you received a PN-40, let me know if you have any questions about the device as you get time to try it out.

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Will there ever be any hope for a GPSbabel compatible interface?

http://forum.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?p=90826#90826

We are creating a new API as part of the Cache Register project and will be releasing that for third party use once the widget is complete.

5.7k · January 8, 2009

Will there ever be any hope for a GPSbabel compatible interface?

Unless someone else beats me to it, I plan on writing the PN-40 interface for gpsbabel. Currently, I'm holding off on starting on this until Cache Register is released, as it is my understanding that this will be a different (better?/faster?) api from the DeLBin api. As soon as I have the new api, I plan on starting on it.

--Marky

January 9, 2009

I got my PN-40 for myself as a birthday present. My eTrex Legend was worn out. I like it so far. I haven't figured out a lot of things yet. For instance, yesterday I was driving back from TN and wanted to know how far to the next big town but I didn't know how. I may just need to spend some time with the instruction manual. I have TomTom One so it wasn't a 'real' issue just wanted to see how it worked.

January 9, 2009

I got my PN-40 for myself as a birthday present. My eTrex Legend was worn out. I like it so far. I haven't figured out a lot of things yet. For instance, yesterday I was driving back from TN and wanted to know how far to the next big town but I didn't know how. I may just need to spend some time with the instruction manual. I have TomTom One so it wasn't a 'real' issue just wanted to see how it worked.

Press the Find button on the bottom of the device... looks like a magnifying glass. Change "Show:" dropdown to Cities. If your menu option is set to Find by Map Center (it is by default) your list will populate with the cities that are nearest your location. Scroll down to the list to see the bearing and distance to each city.

Let me know if you have any other questions...

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

5.3k · January 9, 2009

I have TomTom One so it wasn't a 'real' issue just wanted to see how it worked.

In general, since the PN-40 was designed for off-road use primarily, and the Tom-Tom for on-road use, you'll be happiest using each for their intentioned applications. That's not to say that the PN-40 can't do a lot of the things the dedicated road GPS's can do, albeit a little more awkwardly.

Delorme PN-40 My experience thusfar

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