Query for NYC Extreme Cachers: Any Caches Ever Placed in

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

This is a question for extreme geocachers located in and near New York City. It is quite well known that there are literally many miles of abandoned railway, subway and utility tunnels beneath the streets of New York City, and particularly beneath Manhattan, and some of these tunnels are regularly explored by urban explorers. And, there are also urban legend type folklore tales that go well beyond the simple fact of the existence of the abandoned tunnels, many of them located deep underground, and there exist many tales to the effect that a whole band of homeless and transient people called the "Mole People" live in the abandoned tunnels.

 

In fact, in 1993, graduate student Jennifer Toth, while she was an intern at the Los Angeles Times, penned an entire non-fiction book entitled The Mole People: Life In The Tunnels Beneath New York City wherein she claimed to have spent hundreds of hours visiting the abandoned tunnels deep beneath the streets of New York City, where she claimed to have met dozens of people, called the Mole People, living in a semi-organized community in the tunnels. She claimed to have started researching the tunnels and their residents after hearing some wild tales about the same from a young man whom she had been tutoring in New York City a few years earlier while attending a university there. Here book was claimed to be a non-ffictional account of her travels in the tunnels and interviews with tunnel dwellers.

 

In the time since Toth's book was published, many credible sources have challenged the veracity of many of her larger claims, pointing out numerous discrepancies and errors in the book, and the fact that no one was able to independently verify or corroborate most of her claims.

 

Anyway, my friend Jennie and I will be up in the NYC area in a few weeks, and a local extreme geocacher from NJ, who is a fellow urban explorer, has offered to take us, while we are there, on a tour of some of the abandoned tunnels, and so here is my question:

 

Does anyone know of ANY caches which have been placed in any of these abandoned train and subway and utility tunnels (excluding oodinary storm drain tunnels, of course) deep under Manhattan, and which have been successfully published?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

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[+buttaskotch]

Ohhh, that sounds really cool. I would love to hear about that expedition, shoots I would want to be on it!

Anyways, no there are no caches in the old abandoned tunnels.

The only one that closest resembles what you are talking about is in Nassau County called Suburban Spelunking GCMHP8 (sorry for some reason the HTML coding isn't working for me to link this up for you ) not far from Manhattan

[+Packanack]

mta infrastructure, even that portion not currently used for transit operations is not considered abandoned and entry into or onto their infrastructure by un authorized persons is illegal. Therefore, I doubt that any reviewer having approval over NY would approve placement of a geocache on MTA property.

 

I have a brother who is involved in rail transit and he tells me that "foamers" do present a very real problem to those who work in the system as they can't seem to keep their hands off of things. And every year a few of them wind up dead, not realizing that entry often results in close clearance problems, and the fact that the third rail is still electrified in many "" abandoned"" areas. 600 volts can spoil a day.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Packanack

[+catolee]

Having spent alot of part time living in Manhattan I strongly advise against this expedition. Although it sounds fun and exciting it is in reality very scary and dangerous. There is alot of dark and bad things down there. I will not go on with endless stories, but suffice it to say I honestly would not want to see you go down there. Some places are bettter left alone.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Oh, I'm sure Vinny and Sue are quite adept at fending off the alligators that live beneath the city streets, not to mention the trolls and troglodites. Not really any extreme caches in the city.

How to amuse Vinny in the city???

Central Park Decathlon

Bridges & Arches of Central Park

Frank Farrington's view

Crossroads of the World

Underground Life This one might amuse you!

Five Star New York

4quA5

Justice League: Wonder Woman Haven't tried this one yet, but the previous one at this lovation wqas quite a challenge.

Summer on the Hudson Try this one on a cold winter day!

Nothing extreme, but those should keep you busy for a day or two!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Having spent alot of part time living in Manhattan I strongly advise against this expedition. Although it sounds fun and exciting it is in reality very scary and dangerous. There is alot of dark and bad things down there. I will not go on with endless stories, but suffice it to say I honestly would not want to see you go down there. Some places are bettter left alone.

Thanks for sharing your concern, but I have done a lot of extreme things in my life, including some urban exploring and tunneling, and, in any case, if we do go in, we will be accompanied by a couple of other extreme geocachers, one of whom is an ex-NYC cop and who still has contacts in the department.

 

And, thank you all for your replies so far! Much appreciated! And yes, I had assumed, when asking my question about possible cache placements in those tunnels, that much of the abandoned tunnel infrastructure is likely still under either railway authority or city ownership, and so that would preclude publication of any cache placed there!

 

And regarding Packanack's reminder that the third rail on the abandoned lines is often still hot -- thanks for the reminder! (And, an even greater hazard is likely rusty and poorly-grounded and therefore possibly electrified light fistures, utility boxes, etc. which are encountered in some of those tunnels!)

 

Well, we will play this whole thing by ear once we get into the city for our stay, and so, we may or may not end up actually going into the tunnels, dependent upon a number of variables, but regardless, if we do it, we will stay safe and will not go beyond our skill/abilities level.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Oh, I'm sure Vinny and Sue are quite adept at fending off the alligators that live beneath the city streets, not to mention the trolls and troglodites. Not really any extreme caches in the city.

How to amuse Vinny in the city???

Central Park Decathlon

Bridges & Arches of Central Park

Frank Farrington's view

Crossroads of the World

Underground Life This one might amuse you!

Five Star New York

4quA5

Justice League: Wonder Woman Haven't tried this one yet, but the previous one at this lovation wqas quite a challenge.

Summer on the Hudson Try this one on a cold winter day!

Nothing extreme, but those should keep you busy for a day or two!

Harry, thanks for this list! It is much appreciated! I do wish that the old Manhattan extreme elevated cache (My Monkey, GCK1HM) that I wrote about a few months ago was still in existence!

 

BTW, as is typical for me, the primary purpose of our upcoming 4-day trip to NYC is not geocaching, and so I certainly do not plan to spend a couple of days devoted to caching, but rather, I just want to grab a few caches while we are there. And, in any case, one thing that we MUST do during this trip, as a favor for Sue, is to find the final stage of the PMC - Urban Renewal cache at a certain spot in NYC and sign the log, now that Sue has successfully solved the puzzle!

Edited December 20, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+macatac1961]

You're going to look for 'Mole People' in the forgotten tunnels of NYC? You're more likely to run into desperate crackheads who are more than willing to relieve you of anything you have that they can hock for a hit. Ex-cop or not, you should really question the persons judgment who would be willing to lead you into this type of situation.

[+macatac1961]

You're going to look for 'Mole People' in the forgotten tunnels of NYC? You're more likely to run into desperate crackheads who are more than willing to relieve you of anything you have that they can hock for a hit. Ex-cop or not, you should really question the persons judgment who would be willing to lead you into this type of situation.

[jinxeee]

"extreme geocachers" now i think i have heard it all!!

 

thats to funny.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

"extreme geocachers" now i think i have heard it all!!

 

thats to funny.

When I used the term "extreme geocachers", I was referring simply to geocachers who tend to prefer to seek extreme geocaches, that is, caches with high Terrain ratings. And, as you may or may not already know, there is indeed an entire subset of the sport known as "extreme geocaching", that is, the hiding and seeking of extreme geocaches, ones where special equipment and training are needed to accomplish the find, and/or where extreme exertion and effort is needed to even reach the cache. There are also several well-known public bookmark lists of extreme geocaches here at the site; one is my own such list, entitled Extreme and Adventure Caches.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

By the way, the latest update on our potential excursion into the abandoned tunnels follows:

Due to the large number of homeless people and gangs camping in and/or using the abandoned tunnels, the NYC police department did a sweep of the tunnels and their entrances about a month ago, and sealed the three-best known entrances, including a little-known (outside of certain circles) doorway deep in the labyrinth of Grand Central Station. Sources within NYPD and the mainstream urban exploring (UE) world do not know of the exact location of any more such entryways at this time, but both the police and some urban explorers have heard tales from street people and die-hard radical UE'ers that there exist at least three more such entryways, at least one of them located in a very nasty area of Hell's Kitchen.

 

And, it has quite definitely been established that there have never been any caches listed at Groundspeak, Navicache or the Terracaching sites that have been placed in any of the tunnels, likely due to a multitude of logistical, practical and legal concerns.

 

And, it has quite definitely been established that at this time, there are no significantly extreme terrain caches listed at this site which are located in NYC.

 

However, at the least, while my friend Jennie and I are in NYC over the next week, we will be trying to find the final stage of the PMC-Urban Renewal puzzle cache, located somewhere in NYC, as a favor for Sue, who has been able to solve the puzzle.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Just a few additional notes before I head up to NYC for a few days....

 

First, regarding the claims by Jenifer Toth and others regarding so-called "Mole People", I personally believe that about 85% to 90% of the claims that she made in her book were fabricated. One of many good debunking articles is this one.

 

Fora somewhat more realistic view of NYC tunnels and of the people who inhabited them at one point, you may wish to check out a documentary film called Dark Days, made by a British filmmaker named Marc Singer, and released in 2000.

 

Next, for an interesting pictorial vertical cross-sectional diagram of exactly what exists under the streets of NYC, down to a depth oa bout 800 feet, you may wish to see the diagram, along with article and photos in this excellent National Geographic article. The lowest tube, entitled "deep water" is a representation of the aqueducts which carry water to NYC from reservoirs in the Catskills; the average depth of the aqueducts below NYC streets is about 650 feet.

 

There is also a UE-related book entitled "New York Underground" that examines in depth what may be found under the streets of New York City; it has earned a good level of respect in the UE world.

 

.

[+Gipsie]

As to the status of our expidition and the notes posted herewith. Extreme geocaching and Urban Exploration, although their paths do cross from time to time, are not one and the same. I, being the ex-NYPD persona that Vinny is referring to, would never take anyone into a situation that I did not feel that could be handled. Seeing that the entry-ways that I am famiiar with are sealed off and not passable at this time, we will not be doing this at all. I know some other areas that wil be extremely interesting to Vinny and if I manage to get to the City this weekend, hopefully I will give him some stories to tell. I am trying to get in touch with another cacher who should be joining us and if I can, I will visit Vinny this weekend and we will have a tour. Regardless, I will call him tomorrow and let him know my plans for the weekend. So to all you nervous people out there, who think we will be doing something outrageous, you are probably correct. But it will be with the utmost caution and I guarantee you that we will not go in alone and a slew of people will know where we are, most of them official and it will be with their blessing!

 

Peace.

[+tomflushing]

[qu

 

In fact, in 1993, graduate student Jennifer Toth, while she was an intern at the Los Angeles Times, penned an entire non-fiction book entitled The Mole People: Life In The Tunnels Beneath New York City been successfully published?

 

Read the book and it was great but not very believable.If you do find any caches placed there please let me know as this sounds very intresting to me.Yes it dangeous but things have gotten better with regard to the amount of homeless, crack heads are fewer in number and the city and mta have gone out of their way in offering outreach programs to those who normally be living in such places.Now if this was 1980 I won't venture into any tunnels without my 45 and my friends smith and weston.Good luck with your urban exploration adventure.

.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

As to the status of our expidition and the notes posted herewith. Extreme geocaching and Urban Exploration, although their paths do cross from time to time, are not one and the same. I, being the ex-NYPD persona that Vinny is referring to, would never take anyone into a situation that I did not feel that could be handled. Seeing that the entry-ways that I am familiar with are sealed off and not passable at this time, we will not be doing this at all. I know some other areas that wil be extremely interesting to Vinny and if I manage to get to the City this weekend, hopefully I will give him some stories to tell. I am trying to get in touch with another cacher who should be joining us and if I can, I will visit Vinny this weekend and we will have a tour. Regardless, I will call him tomorrow and let him know my plans for the weekend. So to all you nervous people out there, who think we will be doing something outrageous, you are probably correct. But it will be with the utmost caution and I guarantee you that we will not go in alone and a slew of people will know where we are, most of them official and it will be with their blessing!

 

Peace.

Gipsie, thanks for your excellent note, and I agree with all your points. While I never been a law enforcement officer, and thus cannot speak about the tunnels from that perspective, I do very much trust my ability to assess potentially dangerous situations or settings regarding reasonable risk, as I have spent years crawling in caves, rock climbing, and, as part of my work as a consulting scientist, wading barefoot through hip-deep raw sewage in open-air sewage lagoons in ghettos located in India and Nicaragua. So, as Gipsie said above, we would not have gone in unless each of us felt that it was reasonably safe (please note that I did not write "absolutely safe", for nothing in life is absolutely safe...)

 

And yes, extreme geocaching and urban exploration (UE) are two different animals, although they intersect at times, often in very fun ways!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

...graduate student Jennifer Toth, while she was an intern at the Los Angeles Times, penned an entire non-fiction book entitled The Mole People: Life In The Tunnels Beneath New York City

 

Read the book and it was great but not very believable.If you do find any caches placed there please let me know as this sounds very intresting to me.Yes it dangeous but things have gotten better with regard to the amount of homeless, crack heads are fewer in number and the city and mta have gone out of their way in offering outreach programs to those who normally be living in such places.Now if this was 1980 I won't venture into any tunnels without my 45 and my friends smith and weston.Good luck with your urban exploration adventure.

Thanks for your note, and I agree with your assessment of the current level of risk. As I have stated previously in this thread, I strongly suspect, as do many others, that Toth's book consisted of 5% fact and 95% myth.

 

But, as far as caches being located in any of the abandoned tunnels, there is no chance that any such caches could ever be listed at Groundspeak or the Terracaching or Navicache sites, due to legal issues and other related issues.

 

.