AT Caches Archived!

[+nthacker66]

This is what I am always complaining about that groundpeak needs to be more involved and an advocate f the very activity they make money off of - enough of this "aw shucks, we are just a lil ole' listing service - we welt the local/state organizations handle that stuff" silliness.

 

And you know they weren't involved how?

 

Because I have been told, multiple times by Groundspeak that "local organizations" are best to talk to land management officials because, and I quote "all we are is a listing service"

[+nthacker66]

"btw, i am not sure how i came into this thread - thought this was in the thread about lowering standards..my apologies for the confusion.

[Keystone]

and please let's not sit here and bash ATC. They are a good group of folks - and have fought hard, tooth and nail tp protect the trail from developers, greedy land owners and even eminent domain cases. They aren't the enemy. Perhaps if Groundspeak would reach out to them, like they have asked in that policy dated 2008, there could be better dialogue.

Oh, I will happily bash ATC, even five years later. I found them to be the most overreaching and venegeful land manager I've ever dealt with in ten years as a volunteer cache reviewer. The AT Corridor has never recovered from the bloodbath of cache archivals up to a half mile away from the actual trail.

 

I saved the threatening email from the ATC representative. A quote from that message might discourage you from contacting your friends: "Just to confirm, neither an ATC employee or a local Trail club volunteer has the authority to approve geocaching in the section of Trail that they maintain."

 

This is what I am always complaining about that groundpeak needs to be more involved and an advocate f the very activity they make money off of - enough of this "aw shucks, we are just a lil ole' listing service - we welt the local/state organizations handle that stuff" silliness.

 

And you know they weren't involved how?

He doesn't. Those of us who were involved directly, and know the actual facts of Groundspeak's involvement at that time and in the succeeding years, can chuckle five years later.

 

What an odd thread bump.

[+cerberus1]

What an odd thread bump.

How 'bout it...

 

I was a long-time member of the ATC and CJ became a member when we first started dating.

Most of our free time then was hiking the trail than geocaching.

After losing our hides to a gas line that was snuck in, we figured they made enough from the gas company that they no longer needed our funding.

All were well beyond the corridor markings on State Game Lands.

- We gave our Reviewer pics of the area when we placed them.

[+nthacker66]

and please let's not sit here and bash ATC. They are a good group of folks - and have fought hard, tooth and nail tp protect the trail from developers, greedy land owners and even eminent domain cases. They aren't the enemy. Perhaps if Groundspeak would reach out to them, like they have asked in that policy dated 2008, there could be better dialogue.

Oh, I will happily bash ATC, even five years later. I found them to be the most overreaching and venegeful land manager I've ever dealt with in ten years as a volunteer cache reviewer. The AT Corridor has never recovered from the bloodbath of cache archivals up to a half mile away from the actual trail.

 

I saved the threatening email from the ATC representative. A quote from that message might discourage you from contacting your friends: "Just to confirm, neither an ATC employee or a local Trail club volunteer has the authority to approve geocaching in the section of Trail that they maintain."

 

This is what I am always complaining about that groundpeak needs to be more involved and an advocate f the very activity they make money off of - enough of this "aw shucks, we are just a lil ole' listing service - we welt the local/state organizations handle that stuff" silliness.

 

And you know they weren't involved how?

He doesn't. Those of us who were involved directly, and know the actual facts of Groundspeak's involvement at that time and in the succeeding years, can chuckle five years later.

 

What an odd thread bump.

 

Except the ATC doesnt have the authority to manage land. They have no authority unless they have land trust, which last check, they don't. Much of the AT runs through national park land (both forest and park systems) and private property.

 

Again, if you take 2 mins to look at their policy on geocaching, they clearly state's below (dated Nov. 2008). So it is very unfair and extremely unprofessional of you to bash a conservancy group that may have had a couple of bad folks to deal with. Any time I have talked to and worked with them, they have always been kind and helpful. Perhaps if you let go of grudges, you may have better luck now dealing with them - 5 yers is a long time since the game has grown and has gotten better press.

 

(an to say I don't know, you don't know me. I have hiked long before there was such thing as geocaching. so please do not judge me because i have only been caching 5 years, I have been hiking for 25 years, and volunteering for various organizations of trail maint. , cleanup, and stewardship for the same amount of time, so believe it or not, i do know what I am talking abou and when i talk to regional land management people both and state and local levels - I hear a very common tale - "nope, nobody from Groundspeak or any caching organization as talked to us - perhaps instead of being reactive with these people and using "stealth" in dealings, it would be best to be proactive. Friends of Mountains-to-sea, pacific crest trail association, ATC - they would all LOVE to hear from Groundspeak - but every year when I go to national trail day - do I ever see any representation? except for lasy year, a small local organization was at one in greensboro - no) So again, how can we expect people to respect the activity, know about the activity, know all of the good things cacher's do, have very active public realtions, unless the overseer of the sport - in this case Groundspeak, doesn't get involved front and center? And whenever I have asked about it, I get "that what the local organizations are for" - An that in itself is fine for small local projects and events - but when ATC and other major trail systems organizations have things like NAtional Public Lands Day or major hotspots on national trails day - why can't Groundspeak set up a kickbutt booth, showing videos of citos, showing cachers volunteering, have cachers on site with "signal" trashbags picking up trash off of the grounds of the event, etc. - to promote what good stewards of the environment we are, how caching helps and not hurts land conservancy. Instead of holding grudges and making enemies with the very organizations that are valued and trusted to managed and maintain these delicate, work with them. You can catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

You write me off as being a troublemaker, but I see so much potential with the popularity of caching and how it can be beneficial to the environment in raising awareness and I am sorry. but it is maddening to be blown off like I don't know what I am talking about.

 

ATC Policy on Geocaching

Adopted by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy on November 1, 2008

 

The Appalachian Trail Conservancy seeks to preserve and protect the scenic, cultural, and natural resources of the Appalachian Trail and the Appalachian Trail experience, as defined by the National Trails System Act and ATC policy. To this end, ATC seeks to cooperatively address geocaching with its agency partners, trail-maintaining clubs and other interested groups.

The Appalachian Trail Conservancy recognizes that geocaching offers a unique and social approach to exploring the outdoors that may appeal to a growing segment of outdoor enthusiasts. At the same time, the Conservancy also recognizes the potential drawbacks of practicing this activity, which may include resource degradation, infringement of property rights, and/or conflicts with trail-use ethics. Therefore, to mitigate these concerns, the Conservancy acknowledges that geocaching and similar activities along the Appalachian National Scenic Trail may be appropriate, but only under the following conditions:

 

1. Where geocaching is expressly permitted and managed by the appropriate land-management agency. Geocachers are responsible for knowing the ownership of the lands they intend to recreate on, contacting the land- management agency (state, forest or park as appropriate) or private landowner and obtaining the necessary permits or written permission.

2. Where proper care is taken to avoid damage caused by digging or trampling to vegetation, archeological, cultural or historic resources or other fragile resources in the area.

Additionally, any geocaching activities occurring within the A.T. corridor must conform to other ATC and agency policies. ATC strongly supports agency prohibitions where needed to protect Trail resources and the visitor experience. ATC believes that all geocaches that do not meet the above criteria should be removed from Appalachian Trail lands.

The Conservancy’s effort to manage geocaching along the A.T. will include the following elements:

• Working with appropriate land-management partners to ensure protection of Trail resources from the potential impacts of geocaching.

• Education and outreach for those engaging in geocaching along the A.T., including contact information for ATC regional offices.

• Providing guidance to Trail-maintaining clubs for dealing with geocaches and geocaching impacts.

• Monitoring and cataloging existing caches along the A.T. as well as newly placed caches.

• Working with geocaching organizations including Groundspeak on integrating NPS, ATC and other land-management agency policy in their cache reviewing processes.

[Keystone]

What an odd thread bump.

How 'bout it...

 

I was a long-time member of the ATC and CJ became a member when we first started dating.

Most of our free time then was hiking the trail than geocaching.

After losing our hides to a gas line that was snuck in, we figured they made enough from the gas company that they no longer needed our funding.

All were well beyond the corridor markings on State Game Lands.

- We gave our Reviewer pics of the area when we placed them.

And your reviewers happily published those caches and many others that complied with the geocaching policies of the Pennsylvania State Game Lands and other public lands adjoining the AT corridor. We were doing our job, and doing that job correctly. Imagine our surprise when we received personalized nastygrams from the ATC, and all those caches on adjoining lands got archived.

[+nthacker66]

and again, i know it is an odd bump, i am not quite sure how i wound up in here as i thought iw as on another much more recent thread...so i apologize for that, but it is important none the less.

[+nthacker66]

What an odd thread bump.

How 'bout it...

 

I was a long-time member of the ATC and CJ became a member when we first started dating.

Most of our free time then was hiking the trail than geocaching.

After losing our hides to a gas line that was snuck in, we figured they made enough from the gas company that they no longer needed our funding.

All were well beyond the corridor markings on State Game Lands.

- We gave our Reviewer pics of the area when we placed them.

And your reviewers happily published those caches and many others that complied with the geocaching policies of the Pennsylvania State Game Lands and other public lands adjoining the AT corridor. We were doing our job, and doing that job correctly. Imagine our surprise when we received personalized nastygrams from the ATC, and all those caches on adjoining lands got archived.

 

again that was how long ago? read the polices. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/geocaching-2008.pdf-if you receive a nastgram AFTER this policy than the person or persons informing you were grossly misinformed about their own policies. Which, is a human error and it happens.

 

I find that whenever I talk to local land managers about caching and they cite old rules or their own personal feelings, I politely copy them on the governing policies. And every time I have done so, I have gotten "Wow, we didnt realize that, thank you for bringing that to our attention" - as is the cae where many park superintendents aren't delivered this information by blaring trumpets by one of the king's heralds. Imagine that, the government not communicating well with its own people. That is why, we, as users of these lands need to do so - and as I said you will find these folks more than willing to play ball. I can tell you so many happy stories about local land managers who not only welcome geocaching, but have begged for cachers to come hide caches, hold events, and use the park.

Edited September 19, 2013 by nthacker66

[+edscott]

And your reviewers happily published those caches and many others that complied with the geocaching policies of the Pennsylvania State Game Lands and other public lands adjoining the AT corridor. We were doing our job, and doing that job correctly. Imagine our surprise when we received personalized nastygrams from the ATC, and all those caches on adjoining lands got archived.

 

again that was how long ago? read the polices. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/geocaching-2008.pdf-if you receive a nastgram AFTER this policy than the person or persons informing you were grossly misinformed about their own policies. Which, is a human error and it happens.

 

I find that whenever I talk to local land managers about caching and they cite old rules or their own personal feelings, I politely copy them on the governing policies. And every time I have done so, I have gotten "Wow, we didnt realize that, thank you for bringing that to our attention" - as is the cae where many park superintendents aren't delivered this information by blaring trumpets by one of the king's heralds. Imagine that, the government not communicating well with its own people. That is why, we, as users of these lands need to do so - and as I said you will find these folks more than willing to play ball. I can tell you so many happy stories about local land managers who not only welcome geocaching, but have begged for cachers to come hide caches, hold events, and use the park.

 

Human error? It is obvious that you weren't involved in Geocaching in this area at the time or have a very selective memory. This "human error" was handled with the finesse of a crazed bull. The only error was allowing someone like this to work for our government in a capacity that required interaction with the public.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Keystone
fixed quote tags

[+briansnat]

I hear a very common tale - "nope, nobody from Groundspeak or any caching organization as talked to us.

 

If that person was from the ATC he is either not being truthful, or has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. And I will join in with Keystone in bashing the ATC. Their anti-geocaching crusade left such bad taste in my mouth that I have not renewed my membership since. I still do volunteer work on the AT, but not as a member of that organization.

Edited September 19, 2013 by briansnat

[+nthacker66]

And your reviewers happily published those caches and many others that complied with the geocaching policies of the Pennsylvania State Game Lands and other public lands adjoining the AT corridor. We were doing our job, and doing that job correctly. Imagine our surprise when we received personalized nastygrams from the ATC, and all those caches on adjoining lands got archived.

 

again that was how long ago? read the polices. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/geocaching-2008.pdf-if you receive a nastgram AFTER this policy than the person or persons informing you were grossly misinformed about their own policies. Which, is a human error and it happens.

 

I find that whenever I talk to local land managers about caching and they cite old rules or their own personal feelings, I politely copy them on the governing policies. And every time I have done so, I have gotten "Wow, we didnt realize that, thank you for bringing that to our attention" - as is the cae where many park superintendents aren't delivered this information by blaring trumpets by one of the king's heralds. Imagine that, the government not communicating well with its own people. That is why, we, as users of these lands need to do so - and as I said you will find these folks more than willing to play ball. I can tell you so many happy stories about local land managers who not only welcome geocaching, but have begged for cachers to come hide caches, hold events, and use the park.

 

Human error? It is obvious that you weren't involved in Geocaching in this area at the time or have a very selective memory. This "human error" was handled with the finesse of a crazed bull. The only error was allowing someone like this to work for our government in a capacity that required interaction with the public.

 

Except the ATC isn't a government organization.

[Keystone]

Again, if you take 2 mins to look at their policy on geocaching, they clearly state's below (dated Nov. 2008).

I've spent quite a bit more than two minutes with the AT geocaching policy. I was there in the discussion when it was promulgated. I enforce it each time someone tries to hide a cache near the AT Corridor, even when done in compliance with the adjacent land manager's rules. I check each submission against a GIS overlay of the corridor to make sure none get past me, so I don't get any more threatening emails. I link surprised geocachers to the policy. Guess how many have returned with evidence of permission? ONE cache, hidden BY a PA State Park Environmentalist. That says a lot. (There are also two caches along the AT Corridor in PA published since the purge of 2008, apparently by mistake (not mine) and around two dozen pre-August 2008 caches that survived the purge.)

 

So it is very unfair and extremely unprofessional of you to bash a conservancy group that may have had a couple of bad folks to deal with.

It is never unprofessional to state facts and well-founded impressions derived from those facts. The recent posts from cerberus1, briansnat and EdScott corroborate my opinions. They were there when this went down, as I was. They live in the affected area and watched favorite caches get archived. I stand with them, and I stand by my prior statements.

 

Perhaps if you let go of grudges, you may have better luck now dealing with them - 5 yers is a long time since the game has grown and has gotten better press.

I don't hold grudges. I deal with the caches I'm asked to review, the applicable land manager policies, and the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines. If the cache meets all guidelines it is published. If it doesn't, I explain why. As stated above, Pennsylvania's section of the AT never recovered from the mass archival of 2008. Want to see my grudge opinion change? That will happen when the wrongfully archived caches are reinstated. Did you read earlier in the thread about all the caches that were a great distance from the AT, many not even accessed via the AT? Despite requests from Groundspeak and individual geocachers, NONE were unarchived. The NPS and ATC hold the same grudge, years later.

 

I'll assume you read the earlier posts in this thread from Shauna, the former director of marketing for Groundspeak. Are you aware of the scope of her involvement, including in-person meetings with the NPS? That involvement has continued with her successor Lackeys at Geocaching HQ. Great strides have been made by Groundspeak with the NPS in programs like GeoTrails and GeoTours and EarthCaching. I applaud those programs. No progress has been made with the Appalachian Trail.

 

As a volunteer cache reviewer, I value Groundspeak's expert assistance in land manager relations. That's true not only for the National Park Service and Appalachian Trail Corridor, but for any other significant land managers. Groundspeak is helping me right now with two other statewide land manager issues. It is troubling to read comments saying that they don't care and aren't involved. This is patently false now, as it was in 2008.

[+edscott]

And your reviewers happily published those caches and many others that complied with the geocaching policies of the Pennsylvania State Game Lands and other public lands adjoining the AT corridor. We were doing our job, and doing that job correctly. Imagine our surprise when we received personalized nastygrams from the ATC, and all those caches on adjoining lands got archived.

 

again that was how long ago? read the polices. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/geocaching-2008.pdf-if you receive a nastgram AFTER this policy than the person or persons informing you were grossly misinformed about their own policies. Which, is a human error and it happens.

 

I find that whenever I talk to local land managers about caching and they cite old rules or their own personal feelings, I politely copy them on the governing policies. And every time I have done so, I have gotten "Wow, we didnt realize that, thank you for bringing that to our attention" - as is the cae where many park superintendents aren't delivered this information by blaring trumpets by one of the king's heralds. Imagine that, the government not communicating well with its own people. That is why, we, as users of these lands need to do so - and as I said you will find these folks more than willing to play ball. I can tell you so many happy stories about local land managers who not only welcome geocaching, but have begged for cachers to come hide caches, hold events, and use the park.

 

Human error? It is obvious that you weren't involved in Geocaching in this area at the time or have a very selective memory. This "human error" was handled with the finesse of a crazed bull. The only error was allowing someone like this to work for our government in a capacity that required interaction with the public.

 

Except the ATC isn't a government organization.

 

They must not have gotten your message.. Quote from the Website:

 

Footpath for the People

The Appalachian Trail is a 2,184 mile long public footpath that traverses the scenic, wooded, pastoral, wild, and culturally resonant lands of the Appalachian Mountains. Conceived in 1921, built by private citizens, and completed in 1937, today the trail is managed by the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service, Appalachian Trail Conservancy, numerous state agencies and thousands of volunteers.