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USGS is interested in getting recovery reports

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I am almost done hunting the quads I got from the USGS and am about ready to report on the marks. Since the marks have no unique identifiers such as a PID I fretted over how to report them for quite a while but settled on following the original format:

 

32f0a9c8-8cb7-45d9-b571-f45288391340.jpg

 

The top half is the USGS quad list, with my notes on it (Good luck reading them. My handwriting is so poor that if I don't interpret them within a couple days I will not be able to read it myself!). The bottom half is my recovery list, done with Open Office but saved as a Word doc. I kept the same order as the USGS list and for each mark I typed in some identifying text to parallel the original list, then added recovery information, descriptive text if needed and the coordinates for the mark.

 

I have a few more to find to finish each list and then I will submit them.

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Its back..... the hunt for these crazy marks!

 

I recently started going after a few from the list I received around the time this thread began.

And again - I found myself with more questions then finds.

 

Here they are:

 

1) I was in a really remote area looking for a disc (which I didn't find yet) and was at a disadvantage because I didn't have anyone with me who could help pull a tape - but.... I did find orange and blue ribbon - tied together - and tied to a tree branch. Question: What am I to make of that? What do the different colors (or combos) signify?

 

2) How do we tell how old a power poll is? So often they are referenced in the descriptions (3 feet S of power poll. etc) and are pretty key to find the mark.

 

3) I have searched and searched... has anyone gotten a list of old - and in many cases gone - schools and railroad stations? I am open to any suggestions (minus google - I have tried!)

 

As an aside - I just got the next closests quad to my first.... Thanks to Larry in the Rolla Office - I have a feeling more questions and different questions will arise from those sheets!

 

Hope all my fellow benchmark hunters are well - and I look forward to responses.

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Its back..... the hunt for these crazy marks!

 

I recently started going after a few from the list I received around the time this thread began.

And again - I found myself with more questions then finds.

 

Here they are:

 

1) I was in a really remote area looking for a disc (which I didn't find yet) and was at a disadvantage because I didn't have anyone with me who could help pull a tape - but.... I did find orange and blue ribbon - tied together - and tied to a tree branch. Question: What am I to make of that? What do the different colors (or combos) signify?

 

2) How do we tell how old a power poll is? So often they are referenced in the descriptions (3 feet S of power poll. etc) and are pretty key to find the mark.

 

3) I have searched and searched... has anyone gotten a list of old - and in many cases gone - schools and railroad stations? I am open to any suggestions (minus google - I have tried!)

 

As an aside - I just got the next closests quad to my first.... Thanks to Larry in the Rolla Office - I have a feeling more questions and different questions will arise from those sheets!

 

Hope all my fellow benchmark hunters are well - and I look forward to responses.

 

1) Ribbon could be related to benchmark, but ALSO could be strictly forestry ribbon for boundary or logging or thinning permit or wildlife survey...

 

2) Power poles sometimes have date nails - about head-high with a 2 digit year of installation. Occasionally these will be on a flat tag nailed to the pole.

 

3) Schools - try the related school district or historical society. RR - maybe try the RR office in that locale. That would be my only thought...

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[1) I was in a really remote area looking for a disc (which I didn't find yet) and was at a disadvantage because I didn't have anyone with me who could help pull a tape - but.... I did find orange and blue ribbon - tied together - and tied to a tree branch. Question: What am I to make of that? What do the different colors (or combos) signify?]

 

Finding two flagging colors in combination would be very tantalizing to me. Surveyors like to use two colors (to separate them from casual flagging users, like realtors, contractors, foresters, etc.) if you are in a certain area for awhile, you learn which surveyors use which color combinations. The colors are chosen for their visibility. Orange and blue would be common. So is pink and blue. Unfortunately, pink and pukey green is becoming more common. It's very much like dogs marking their territory, or street gangs spraying graffiti. It's a way for a surveyor to say, "I was here". And, usually, it means the surveyor found something. Something, for which they are proud enough to hang flagging which says, "I found it!". So, I would keep searching that area, because there's a good chance a surveyor has used the disk within the life span of the flagging hanging from the tree.

 

The flagging would be as close to the benchmark as possible. If there is flagging in more than one location, try to put yourself in the center of those locations. That would be where the benchmark is. If only one spot of flagging, check the knot used to tie the flagging. The direction from which the knot was tied would be the direction in which the disk is located.

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Being new to this Hobby I began a search for information on a Survey Disc I found near my former place of residence. It is marked as a (Corps of engineers) Survey Marker. Is there any interest in tracking this type of marker?

Edited by rat31465

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Well have been reading over the newest forms I had and I noticed 2 things that were strange.......

 

Any comments on them would be appreciated.

 

Below is the first, and it is seen in varying forms and combinations throughout the ducument. Also, to the left of the T.P some of the entries do not have mileage info associated with them.

 

"T.P (rd. and trail SW) = P.P. "0" photo1-59"

 

The nest question is:

 

What do they mean when they write "painted"

 

"standard tablet stamped JJS 1956 815, painted "BM 815.1"

 

Look forward to your interpretations..........

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Wild guess:

Turning Point (near intersection of road and trail that heads southwest) Power Pole (probably a spike in pole)

 

A turning point is anything stable that they can set the rod on while the level instrument is moved forward to the next setup.

 

Painted would probably mean they hand painted (or used lumber crayon) to hand write the elevation as computed so far in the field work (subject to adjustment by office checking).

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Hey all:

 

Hard to believe its been 2 years since the last post on this thread, and I am sure there are new folks here now that would find this thread interesting reading for a few hours. Therefore, I am giving it a bump.

 

If anyone has worked through this process of getting the data sheets and looking for marks, I would love to hear about it!

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For some reason I decided to start re-looking at all this info - and after reading the sheets I have, my head spun like it had done before.

Something does lead me back to the excitement of trying to find these marks that few have info on.

 

I haven't forgotten though - they can also be VERY frustrating.

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I obtained many paper datasheets in the Tulsa OK area from USGS. Each set of sheets, corresponding to one of the old 15x15-minute quads, contains a list of marks which it appears were mainly established by USGS in the 1950's when they were creating the topo map series. Many are just section corners, chiseled squares, nails, and other things uninteresting to me, but maybe 10% are survey disks. Some are USCGS disks, the agency that turned into NGS. Many of them have positions listed and many do not. The ones that had positions listed, I entered into my GPS (use datum NAD27), which turned out to be about 40 markers. A few I was already aware of because they were NGS markers. One was a bonified USGS marker, a stamped aluminum plate on a post, which I had already found years ago quite by accident. Many were in heavily-populated areas where streets had been widened and I knew they were not there. I searched for a handful out in the country and did not find any. A metal detector would be helpful. Searching for these was quite difficult and it almost seems not worth it, although a find would be quite a thrill.

 

I thought it would be quite interesting to create an online database of these listings in my area where people could log their experiences searching for these, but there just isn't much interest around here.

BasicPoke

 

Hey all:

 

Hard to believe its been 2 years since the last post on this thread, and I am sure there are new folks here now that would find this thread interesting reading for a few hours. Therefore, I am giving it a bump.

 

If anyone has worked through this process of getting the data sheets and looking for marks, I would love to hear about it!

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I thought it would be quite interesting to create an online database of these listings in my area where people could log their experiences searching for these, but there just isn't much interest around here.

BasicPoke

 

There already is an online database where you can post listings of USGS benchmarks (or other types) that you have found. And because you have an account here, you already have an account there:

http://www.Waymarking.com

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BasicPoke:

 

EdrickV is right - Waymarking is the place to do it. If you look back through all these pages ( you will be reading for a LONG time) you will see at least one of mine linked.

 

Yes you are right - alot of these "marks" are not discs - but...... can you imagine finding a spike driven 50 + years ago! The other cool part is - while many can search for NGS marks - this is alot different - and yes - many times they are very hard to find!

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Went out for several hours today - not much luck (to say the least). What i really need are sources for 1) old post office locations) 2) old school locations and 3)old rail road station stop locations.

 

Question - would it be possible that the chiseled square on an abubtement edge would be chipped off after 50+ years? Alot of these marks we discuss here are of that sort!

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Question - ---- chiseled square on an abubtement edge ----- chipped off after 50+ years?

 

I have found several chiseled squares in the hundred year old range. If you can get to the structure the mark is

almost always there and generally in better condition than this one in red sandstone.

 

486929a8-3fd6-425b-9674-386e79d6e35a.jpg

E OF GALLUP NM

 

kayakbird

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I thought as a general rule when they were on abutments that the surveyor utlized the corners. Am I wrong?

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Went searching yet again - and again I was reminded of how hard these marks and reference points are to find (it really can't be said enough!) But......... I have good news - I found a disc AND its reference mark - and this was a first for me: a railroad spike in a power pole! OH YEAH. Need to revisit before posting to Waymarking - will share the link when I do! Still wondering about my question above however - I looked for another square and in its place ( where I thought it should be based on the description) I found a corner broken off........

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Still wondering about my question above however - I looked for another square and in its place ( where I thought it should be based on the description) I found a corner broken off........

 

frex3wv,

 

Sorry I didn't catch your repeat question sooner - too much kayak time last week. If a chisel mark was made, or an existing one used, during a precise level run and then became PID'd; it was generally well back from the edges. this is one of my favorite ones - found on my birthday during a great road trip with Okie'sKid from Las Vegas back to Montana.

 

2144a324-5bfd-4844-a682-e7a3b03ba93a.jpg

 

CHISELED SQUARE FROM 1906

 

The DATA SHEET calls are most times very accurate

 

EV0852''EAST OF MILEPOST 685, AT THE SOUTHEAST ONE OF TWO LARGE

EV0852''SANDSTONE ABUTMENTS OF A FORMER RAILROAD BRIDGE OVER A DEEP

EV0852''RAVINE, IN THE TOP OF THE SOUTH END OF THE SOUTH WING WALL FOR

EV0852''THE SOUTHEAST ABUTMENT, 1.2 FEET NORTH OF THE SOUTH EDGE OF THE

EV0852''WING WALL, 11 1/2 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE CENTER OF THE RAILROAD

EV0852''ALIGNMENT, ABOUT LEVEL WITH THE RAILROAD BED, THE BOTTOM OF A

EV0852''SQUARE HOLE CHISELED IN THE TOP OF THE WING WALL. SEC 15,

EV0852''T 7 N, R 9 E.

 

but if it doesn't jump right out at you like this optical illusion

 

ec0397b0-ec98-4b5a-97d0-7838d2a17337.jpg

 

check every possible surface. You will frequently have to shovel back some ballast it the mark is on a RR structure.

 

kayakbird

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Kayak - no worries - sounds like you have been busy which is a good thing!

 

Thanks for the response - the ones I am looking for do not have pids but are instead true USGS "reference" marks.

 

I HAVE run across some that say "middle of ....." but MOST are on the corner of steps (to churches) or corners of abutments (etc.) When I look at all the spots they COULD be (i admit I am lousy with the compass directions which doesn't help me in my quest) - I either DO NOT find any hint of them - OR a broken off corner where i think it might have been. That is where I am at.........

 

I haven't even vented on the USGS folks putting chisled squares in soft "sandstone outcroppings" - thats a post for another day!

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Those USGS reference marks can be very hard to find. I found very few of them in my searches and don't recall any of them being well defined. As you mentioned they are often in church steps, curbs, etc., and I am pretty sure they were cut into edges and corners, and not deeply cut in the center of any of the places. I can think of one very close to home that SHOULD have been there--everything was in place and the steps mentioned in the description were in good condition, but I had no luck. I carry a flashlight to sidelight marks like this in case they are so shallowly cut and the sun is high, but still I got nothing.

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Found this on my usgs sheets today at the end of a mark's description (a spike nail in an 18" poplar tree): (p.p. photo 1-85 = ue elevation)

 

Can anyone translate for me ? And if it is an actual picture - I wonder what the odds are the picture still is around somewhere to be seen.

 

(on a side note - have a question about the actual people who did these i am trying to find - but going to make that its own thread)

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Still wondering about my question above however - I looked for another square and in its place ( where I thought it should be based on the description) I found a corner broken off........

 

frex3wv,

 

Sorry I didn't catch your repeat question sooner - too much kayak time last week. If a chisel mark was made, or an existing one used, during a precise level run and then became PID'd; it was generally well back from the edges. this is one of my favorite ones - found on my birthday during a great road trip with Okie'sKid from Las Vegas back to Montana.

 

2144a324-5bfd-4844-a682-e7a3b03ba93a.jpg

 

CHISELED SQUARE FROM 1906

 

The DATA SHEET calls are most times very accurate

 

EV0852''EAST OF MILEPOST 685, AT THE SOUTHEAST ONE OF TWO LARGE

EV0852''SANDSTONE ABUTMENTS OF A FORMER RAILROAD BRIDGE OVER A DEEP

EV0852''RAVINE, IN THE TOP OF THE SOUTH END OF THE SOUTH WING WALL FOR

EV0852''THE SOUTHEAST ABUTMENT, 1.2 FEET NORTH OF THE SOUTH EDGE OF THE

EV0852''WING WALL, 11 1/2 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE CENTER OF THE RAILROAD

EV0852''ALIGNMENT, ABOUT LEVEL WITH THE RAILROAD BED, THE BOTTOM OF A

EV0852''SQUARE HOLE CHISELED IN THE TOP OF THE WING WALL. SEC 15,

EV0852''T 7 N, R 9 E.

 

but if it doesn't jump right out at you like this optical illusion

 

ec0397b0-ec98-4b5a-97d0-7838d2a17337.jpg

 

check every possible surface. You will frequently have to shovel back some ballast it the mark is on a RR structure.

 

kayakbird

 

 

I wonder why two of the edges are so clean and straight, and two of them aren't.

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reposting from above so its not lost in the shuffle:

 

Found this on my usgs sheets today at the end of a mark's description (a spike nail in an 18" poplar tree): (p.p. photo 1-85 = ue elevation)

 

Can anyone translate for me ? And if it is an actual picture - I wonder what the odds are the picture still is around somewhere to be seen.

 

(on a side note - have a question about the actual people who did these i am trying to find - but going to make that its own thread)

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I wonder why two of the edges are so clean and straight, and two of them aren't.

 

I believe all four sides are straight. The unevenness of the surface makes an uneven shadow on the bottom. It is really hard to see this as a carved depression and not a raised square.

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Hey guys.

 

Well - I have renewed my hunt for a few of these marks and nothing has changed - they are very hard to find - BUT - I DID find one a few days ago - will post the waymark for it when I create it.

 

I know this is going to sound strange - but I never paid a whole lot of attention to where the X was until you all helped me on a recent thread I started. "Light bulb" moment and now I am trying to put the position of the x on the topo in to the mix! With that being said - what happenes when you CAN'T seem to see the x???

 

Case in point (and a mark I want help on!)

 

Here is the description from the typed page:

 

Elk View, 1.5 mi NW of; at mouth of Wills Branch; 230 ft E. of T-rd, junction of rd. NW.: 15 ft S. of centerline of paved rd.; 3 ft E of power pole; 1 ft N of hedge; in concrete post; standard tabletstamped "75 JJS 1955 677", painted "BM 646.5"

 

This is in Elkview WV.

 

Thoughts?

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Hey guys.

 

Well - I have renewed my hunt for a few of these marks and nothing has changed - they are very hard to find - BUT - I DID find one a few days ago - will post the waymark for it when I create it.

 

I know this is going to sound strange - but I never paid a whole lot of attention to where the X was until you all helped me on a recent thread I started. "Light bulb" moment and now I am trying to put the position of the x on the topo in to the mix! With that being said - what happenes when you CAN'T seem to see the x???

 

Case in point (and a mark I want help on!)

 

Here is the description from the typed page:

 

Elk View, 1.5 mi NW of; at mouth of Wills Branch; 230 ft E. of T-rd, junction of rd. NW.: 15 ft S. of centerline of paved rd.; 3 ft E of power pole; 1 ft N of hedge; in concrete post; standard tabletstamped "75 JJS 1955 677", painted "BM 646.5"

 

This is in Elkview WV.

 

Thoughts?

 

Looks to me like they built the interstate exit on top of that one, so they removed the X. Why they left the label, I don't know.

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I can see where you are coming from Holtie - BUT - I would think if that were the case they would have known they were destroying it and properly reported it to the Government. There ARE "reports" (not many, but a few) on the sheets I was given, however none for this entry.

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I can see where you are coming from Holtie - BUT - I would think if that were the case they would have known they were destroying it and properly reported it to the Government. There ARE "reports" (not many, but a few) on the sheets I was given, however none for this entry.

 

Well, at least now there is another mark in the area, and this one is listed in the NSRS.

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I can see where you are coming from Holtie - BUT - I would think if that were the case they would have known they were destroying it and properly reported it to the Government. There ARE "reports" (not many, but a few) on the sheets I was given, however none for this entry.

 

It was not listed as destroyed because that would cost time and money! They were probably on a tight budget for that job and did not have the funds or time to file the destroyed report.

 

John

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Holtie - yup - there sure is and I found that one just for fun because I know the person who set it!

 

2old: So let me get this straight: It is government property there for a purpose (with a fine for destroying it without doing it properly) and surely they knew it was there and they were destroying it right?

 

I guess it confuses me that professionals don't know the deal - am I the only one who has thought that before?!

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2old: So let me get this straight: It is government property there for a purpose (with a fine for destroying it without doing it properly) and surely they knew it was there and they were destroying it right?

 

I guess it confuses me that professionals don't know the deal - am I the only one who has thought that before?!

 

You missed the point of my post - It costs money to file those recovery reports. Not necessarily in cash, but in time that must be paid for by the folks doing the survey job where the mark may well end up being destroyed. To fill out all the paperwork and then submit it, takes time and workers do not do this for free! Only so much money is allocated for a specific job and if there is not enough allowed, then guess where the cuts will be done.

 

Rarely does anyone get a fine for destroying a survey mark.

 

What is the "Deal" that professionals don't know, but you do?

 

John

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If anyone is interested, here is another great article by Jerry Penry on the USGS Deadwood Datum.

USGS Deadwood Datum

 

Windbound and just watching birds at my feeders in Livingston, Mont with no chance to go after interesting marks until kayak season so this USGS 'Deadwood' datum has held off cabin fever for a couple of days.

 

Sorting through my Excel files of two year old GSAK downloads for Wyoming and South Dakota produced 51 BENCHMARKS with PID's that have 'DW' in their name. Used DSWorld to peg these on Google Earth where they make for a nice circumnavigation hunting trip of the Black Hills.

 

FALL RIVER CO, SD

 

3c3cad45-dc88-4415-808b-6bd8ccb0d4ce.jpg

 

The above is one of 24 out of 40 in South Dakota that has the 'DW' at the beginning of the name. All the rest have the elevation number first.

 

37 of the 51 have been NGS RECOVERED since 1956 and only three have a found LOG in Geocache. Lots of potential to pad your pre-1903 list.

 

kayakbird

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John:

 

While there MAY be a formal process with these USGS marks for reporting a KNOWN destroyed mark - my guess is they are handled differently then NGS marks (though I could be wrong - I will be calling soon and ask the ?) - here is why:

 

These are sheets of paper - stored in a filing cabinet - that were hand typed back in the mid 1950's. Where they DID get a report - it simply has an added typwritten comment such as "(reported destroyed 1992.)" That is it!

 

Having looked for and not found several of these that i am sure are gone - all I can tell you is - none have ever been reported. Also - there are no "recovery" reports either - not a single one.

 

My comment about professionls was more aimed at contractor/construction folk who may simply have not cared or were careless. I do see what you mean about cutting cost - but would a surveyor knowingly allow a mark to be destroyed (and NOT execute the proper procedure) considering it is government property? That doesn't sound right to me.

 

Hope that made sense!

Edited by frex3wv

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Received a new quad from the Rollo office recently. Not much new in the descriptions except that i did come across a seperate page that specifically had "Meridian" Marks.

 

So the questions for the experts are: what are they, why were they used? Were they referenced on maps? Out of the 3 quads I have why does only one quad even mention them?

 

As to my comments directly above - I asked about giving the USGS reports and they said they would take them in any format that was offered, but that for the most part these marks are now simply historical and nothing more. Again - over 50 pages of marks and almost zero reports of being found, destroyed etc. Hmmmmm. My point being - if a contruction crew/survey crew etc removed a mark - all they would have to do was make one simple call to the USGS Rollo office and that would be that.

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Received a new quad from the Rollo office recently. Not much new in the descriptions except that i did come across a seperate page that specifically had "Meridian" Marks.

 

So the questions for the experts are: what are they, why were they used? Were they referenced on maps? Out of the 3 quads I have why does only one quad even mention them?

 

As to my comments directly above - I asked about giving the USGS reports and they said they would take them in any format that was offered, but that for the most part these marks are now simply historical and nothing more. Again - over 50 pages of marks and almost zero reports of being found, destroyed etc. Hmmmmm. My point being - if a contruction crew/survey crew etc removed a mark - all they would have to do was make one simple call to the USGS Rollo office and that would be that.

 

Meridians are lines of longitude, and while I don't know for sure about those meridian marks, they may mark the spot where a state's meridian and baseline (a line of latitude) meet. The meridians/baselines were used in making a grid based survey (The Public Land Survey System) of new territory/states after the revolutionary war. Apparently the sales of that land was used to fund the revolutionary war after it was done. You can read a lot more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Land_Survey_System

 

My state, Michigan, has two monuments in a landlocked state park known as Meridian-Baseline State Park. The baseline east of the Michigan Meridian and the baseline west of the Michigan Meridian don't match up, the eastern one is farther north. So there are monuments at the intersection of the meridian and both baselines.

 

Here are some links to re-monumentation datasheets and Waymarking pages for the two monuments.

 

East baseline & Meridian monument:

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/remon/dt_image.asp?remon_index=01S01EA0120041206&directory=01S01E

 

Waymarking page:

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMA4VH_Michigan_Prime_Meridian_Benchmark

 

West baseline & Meridian monument:

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/remon/dt_image.asp?remon_index=01N01WM1320071106&directory=01N01W

 

Waymarking page:

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMA4FT_Michigan_Meridian_Baseline_State_Park

 

There are a lot of other PLSS marks around. (Especially in Michigan where a program was started to re-monument all of the marks.) I posted a thread about one I found a while back (on private property that I had access to) with pictures of the re-monumented mark and the witness marks I was able to find.

Edited by EdrickV

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While all that did make for interesting reading, I don't think an answer to my questions posted above were contained therein (or I missed them!) (specific to USGS marks)

Edited by frex3wv

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Meridian marks were set by both USC&GS and USGS. The marks were usually set in pairs a couple of hundred feet apart. In many cases they were set on or near the grounds of a county courthouse. The primary function of these marks was to provide an authoritative location where surveyors could come and compare their compasses against a known magnetic bearing (azimuth). Typically the USC&GS/USGS field team would determine the magnetic bearing between the two monuments then perform an astronomic observation, in most cases a solar (sun shot) to determine the "geodetic" or "true" bearing of the line. Surveyors could then set their compass on one station, backsight the other and determine what, if any offset they needed to apply to their instruments. In some communities it was required that surveyors perform this function annually. These stations also served as reference sites for the determination and monitoring of the change in magnetic variation. For many years USC&GS and USGS produced maps of local and regional magnetic variation. As the use of transits and later theodolites replaced the use of the compass for surveys the need for these stations for that application faded away. Today they are a true relic of surveying history.

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Thanks for the input DaveD. I have started a new thread for this topic. In the meantime, I still wonder why some USGS survey parties mentioned meridian while others did not.

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Was looking for a USGS gauging disk today and happened upon a US Army Corp. of Eng. disk right next to what I think is a USGS ref mark (chiseled square)

 

My question is: would those surveyors have looked for USGS marks that were within a few feet of the mark they were setting? Would anything about those marks be in their notes (and how do I get those notes?)

 

As an aside - if they did look for the marks, they never got in touch with the USGS about it to report their success or failure (bn no notes on my sheets) - even though they were feet away from a long standing USGS gauging station!

 

Lastly - I think I found a majorly disturbed (pushed over and buried) ref. mark - don't know for sure yet to.

 

IF I did - what should I do?

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Need help:

 

Anyone have a sense of where I should look for this. I went to the area today but felt turned around.

 

General area coordinates are: 38 13.651 081 38.606

 

Here is the USGS description: "at top of ridge at head of 4 mile and Davis Creek, 45ft SE of centerline of rd. at pipe line crossing; 21 ft. S. of centerline of rd.; 18 ft. N. of 12" oak tree at edge of bank; directly between 2 state forest signs marking brier creek trail and middle ridge trail." (BM 1316)

 

 

And - 1.3 miles away from this mark and away from the forest boundary I need help with this description:

 

22ft N. of centerline of rd. at hairpin curve on hill; 21 ft. w of center of N headwall of stone culvert; 4 ft west of twin poplar tree; BM 895.1

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"frex3wv," sorry, I haven't read this whole thread, but what kind of help are you looking for with those descriptions? They seem quite straightforward to me.

 

Also, are you only going by the descriptions, or have you derived coordinates from the locations of those benchmarks on the USGS topo maps? I do the latter when I want to find a mark that's on a USGS quad, and it's been a very successful method for me. It's also very helpful even when a mark is in the NGS database if its coords there are scaled; use the coords from the topo and you'll save a lot of time finding it!

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Wintertime:

 

Don't blame you for not reading the whole thread - it would take abit of time for sure! :)

 

This thread is specific to searching for marks not referenced anywhere online.

 

The help I was hoping for was that some of the folks here could use all the different sources at their disposal and info I provided to give me some visual idea of where I should be looking.

 

I admit - the descriptions seem obvious - but when on scene - boy how it is easy to get all turned around! Especially when the marks were placed at least 50+ years ago!

Roads expanded/widened, signs removed/location changed etc etc etc. hence the challenge of these specific marks and the fun in looking for them.

 

I am still not at all good at using a map and crosshairs scenario to get coordinates etc. A simple, put in layman's terms help on this would be a great thing!

 

(ALSO - looking for thoughts on post 243 above!)

Edited by frex3wv

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Wintertime:

 

Don't blame you for not reading the whole thread - it would take abit of time for sure! :)

 

:)

 

This thread is specific to searching for marks not referenced anywhere online.

Yes, I know. That's why I was asking whether you were using coordinates derived from USGS quadrangle maps. Makes life a lot easier than just trying to go by the description!

 

The help I was hoping for was that some of the folks here could use all the different sources at their disposal and info I provided to give me some visual idea of where I should be looking.

Okay. Well, for the second one, did you find a hairpin turn and then a culvert north of the road? Once you've gotten situated there, you should just be able to use the distances to zero in on the mark. If you don't have any coordinates to help you.

 

I admit - the descriptions seem obvious - but when on scene - boy how it is easy to get all turned around! Especially when the marks were placed at least 50+ years ago!

Roads expanded/widened, signs removed/location changed etc etc etc.

Yeah, that's for sure! In this case, if you can no longer find a culvert at the hairpin turn, perhaps the road was expanded.

 

I am still not at all good at using a map and crosshairs scenario to get coordinates etc. A simple, put in layman's terms help on this would be a great thing

 

What program are you using to put crosshairs on the topo map to derive coordinates for the benchmarks?

 

Patty

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1) As for the mark at the hairpin turn - I saw a culvert - but a box culvert it wasn't - a huge metal pipe it was.

 

2) Still not the greatest using maps etc or figuring out direction S. NW etc etc) while onsite.

 

3) can't really remember which site/program I used at home to look - I do it so infrequently. I know I know - sort of a novice in some aspects still!

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I took a look at those spots in the benchmark viewer site, and the marks do show up on the MyTopo layer, however that's not so good for getting coordinates. So I used the National Map which also has a topo view and other stuff, and I got some approximate coordinates and make a couple map images.

BM at 1316 elevation: N38° 13' 38.307" W81° 38' 37.522"

BM at 895 elevation: N38° 13' 33.938" W81° 37' 50.710" (Probably too far North East.)

 

usgs1.jpg

usgs2.jpg

 

Starting with the one on the left, the southernmost road (as seen on Google Maps, where the road is un-named) seems to be Briar Creek Road and, at the intersection with Rush Road, seems to be following a gas pipeline. (So it may be a pipeline access road.) On the pics above it would be the road South of Rush Creek road that heads west and isn't marked as a road but is visible on the satellite image, and is shown on Google Street View to be blocked off by a green gate. Not sure where exactly the pipeline is in relation to the road, or if it still exists. (The current park map makes it seem like the pipeline may still be there, since there are gas wells marked on it. Middle Ridge Trail is some distance North and branches off of Middle Ridge Road (Park Road 801) which Google Maps calls Dirt Ridge Road at the intersection with Rush Creek road. (It's possible the trail used to start closer to Rush Creek road but got changed.) So the mark should be near where the pipeline crosses Rush Creek road. (The pipeline probably goes underneath the road, and might be entirely underground, I don't know. But there may still be indicators of it's location.)

 

As far as the one on the right (the hairpin curve one) rather then trying to measure off distances I would say use the terrain. There is supposedly a stream that goes under the road which has a culvert, the culvert should be aligned with the lowest area of the terrain North of the road. So go North of the road a bit and go downhill till the terrain starts going back up again. Then look for the Southern end and the culvert under the road. (There is what looks like a culvert visible on Google Street View on the South side of the road, but the North side wasn't visible on Google Street View.)

 

Edit: 42 would of course be Rush Creek Road. Didn't notice it wasn't named.

Edited by EdrickV

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