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Thank Goodness it Wasn't A GeoCache!


Zoptrop
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I actually saw one of these in Seattle's Capitol Hill area about two weeks ago. My first thought was, "Cool! More high-tech graffiti!"

 

But then maybe it's because I'd visited Graffiti Research Lab before, and have friends that are into making LED Throwies.

 

This kind of thing has been going on as a hobby for a while. Lighted non-damaging graffiti. Projector art on the sides of buildings. "Laser tagging". Making inexpensive yet sturdy chairs out of cardboard for people to sit on in New York's public areas.

 

This kind of reaction by the government and especially the media (who keeps insisting on calling it a "device") endangers any kind of creative public activities, including LED Throwing and Geocaching. Worse, it imposes a greater culture of fear where even political protests become endangered as possible "terrorist activity".

 

I think the terrorists have already won.

 

Luna

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Wow...did they KNOW they weren't "devices" and just some silly toy??? I don't think so! Could an explosive be placed in that toy...YES!!! ...
In Iraq, it would not be extraordinary to find an explosive device inside a car. Walk, park, or drive by the car and it could kill you. It would certainly be large enough to hold enough explosives to destroy buildings and bridges.

 

If a car was found to be broken down under an overpass, would you suggest that the owner be arrested?

Edited by sbell111
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Link to story Boston Bomb Scare

 

I like ATHF.

 

In Seattle they removed them. No scare. In Boston, big scare and they want to charge them for their own responce.

 

The problem remains terrorisism and real bombs. Not responses to false reports. False reports are a side effect of having bomb squads and encouraging people to call them in.

 

Where no harm was intended, no charges should be pressed. Public officials tend to forget the basics. One basic being "you signed up for false alarms when you signed up to have a bomb squad" another basic being "when you start shutting down real life activites due to bomb scares, the terrorists are winning".

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...And I truly doubt they went for permission to place these around there...why would there have been this reaction if they had??? And really, do you think permission would have been granted for such locations???...

 

Yes, someone still would have called it in. The Bomb squad would not have been in the loop for any permit issued to allow these things within the right of way etc. By the time the right hand and left hand talked to each other it would be too late.

 

For what it's worth, politicians seldom get permission to plaster their signs everywere. They assume they have it and then break the rules. We roll our eyes every election cycle, but we also don't enforce our own rules when it comes to political signs.

 

A winky blinky political banner is coming.

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lunaverse...if they had placed these devises in an airport and hid them in obscure areas as under a bench or behind a toilet, would that have been any better?? It's the same thing...they placed these items in spots known to be terrorist targets...NOT out in the open and on the sides of businesses or buses or attached to a park bench...if I were trying to advertise, I'd certainly choose a better location...AND ASK PERMISSION!!! :blink:

 

sbell...oh...never mind, you'd argue anything so why bother?? :wub:

 

I know, I said that last one was my last...but you guys are really arguing for something like this??? COMMON SENSE!!!

 

The reason for no panic in other areas is because the company came forth and SAID they were there and what they were...big difference than seeing the devise and getting worried because of the UNKNOWN!!

 

If everyone were to turn a blind eye to everything out of the ordinary, we'll be prime for another 9/11!! I'm glad to see the response we got here...makes me feel a bit safer knowing we are being alertt!!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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lunaverse...if they had placed these devises in an airport and hid them in obscure areas as under a bench or behind a toilet, would that have been any better?? It's the same thing...they placed these items in spots known to be terrorist targets...NOT out in the open and on the sides of businesses or buses or attached to a park bench...if I were trying to advertise, I'd certainly choose a better location...AND ASK PERMISSION!!! :blink:

 

sbell...oh...never mind, you'd argue anything so why bother?? :wub:

 

I know, I said that last one was my last...but you guys are really arguing for something like this??? COMMON SENSE!!!

 

Common sense isn't that common. If it were, we wouldn't have restrictions on cache placements here at gc.com.

 

As it is, these guys didn't "hide" the signs. They placed them in the open for people to see.

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...What would you rather they do, ignore anything that seems out of the ordinary, even those that have lights and wires and such??? OK, forget all that has happened then and go on with that "I am beyond reach" thought!! I hope the public keeps up being on gaurd, even if this one was a false alarm!

 

Responding is fine, and the right thing to do. Charging someone just because they had a dumbass attack even if it was a Defcon 1 dumbass attack...is too much. I would not classify this as a Defcon 1.

 

Joe Citizen going about his life should be beyond the reach of law if something he does happens to cause a false alarm. Save our overcrowded jails for real criminals.

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lunaverse...if they had placed these devises in an airport and hid them in obscure areas as under a bench or behind a toilet, would that have been any better?? It's the same thing...they placed these items in spots known to be terrorist targets...NOT out in the open and on the sides of businesses or buses or attached to a park bench...if I were trying to advertise, I'd certainly choose a better location...AND ASK PERMISSION!!! :blink:

 

sbell...oh...never mind, you'd argue anything so why bother?? :wub:

 

I know, I said that last one was my last...but you guys are really arguing for something like this??? COMMON SENSE!!!

 

Graffiti artists don't hide things "behind" anything. The point of a light-up sign is to be in public and be seen everywhere. The one I saw was on a light pole.

 

Was it stupid to put it on a bridge? Probably. That doesn't make them terrorists, nor does it make a "sign" into a "device".

 

Terrorists HIDE things. Did anyone see the boxcutters that took down 3 American planes and two skyscrapers? Did the boxcutters light up and blink? NO. They were sneaky, hidden. They were in someone's pocket!

 

Terrorists aren't as stupid as some subway drivers who call in "bombs" that are shaped like cartoon characters. If there's going to be a bomb under a bridge, it will be disguised as a wet cardboard box, or a homeless person.

 

I for one don't like trading in my freedom for fear. The terrorists committed one act on 9/11, and the politicians and media are doing a fantasic job of not letting us forget. It is very convenient how much power they've won from a single enemy attack.

 

Interestingly enough, one of the arrested artists fled Belarus in 1996 seeking political asylum in the US. There his crime was opposing a dictatorship. He apparently thought he'd have a little more freedom here.

 

You're more likely to win the lottery than be killed in a terrorist attack. Why are you so eager to cash in your freedom to be saved from these false fears?

 

Your own hobby is in danger. I know we don't put things on bridges -- but our stuff looks a lot more bomb-like than a lit cartoon character. I've opened two Urban caches inside Seattle city limits (in very public places) that look just like pipes (pipebombs anyone?). Everyone else uses ammo cans, which look like.. well... demolition kits.

 

This could have just as easily happened to any one of us. It's easy to point fingers and say, "It was just a viral marketing scheme by a huge corporation, so we're safe." Or "what I do is harmless, so I'm safe." Or "I don't put things under bridges, so it's safe." Well it isn't safe. My cache is in an in-city park, and is an ammo can. It's along a very popular walkway. The people looking for it carry suspcious devices with lights, and they loiter and have shifty eyes and whipser and do things normal people don't do.

 

This could just as easily have been you or me, and that's what scares me more than 9/11, more than any terrorist.

 

If we want to protect our own rights, we should look at these warnings signs even if they're happening to other people. We should be just as concerned about justice for these guys as we would be if one of our own were mis-accused. If society is jumping at shadows, it's not the shadows fault -- it's society's. And the next shadow could be mine or yours.

 

Luna

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Todays press conference in Boston was hilarious! The two guys that were arrested were refusing to answer question about the case and were insisting that they would only answer questions about their hair. Someone of the Press was actually able to formulate a relevant question. His question was about one of the guys hair cut (or lack of) and how/if it would be taken care of in prison.

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For what it's worth, CNN is reporting this morning that the City of Boston has set the figure of $750,000.00 as the costs they will try to recoup for this!

 

CNN covered it for hours on end, is still covering it... I wonder how much they made selling commercial time by keeping millions of scared or curious eyeballs glued to TV screens? THAT is what's driving this irrational fear!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Todays press conference in Boston was hilarious! The two guys that were arrested were refusing to answer question about the case and were insisting that they would only answer questions about their hair. Someone of the Press was actually able to formulate a relevant question. His question was about one of the guys hair cut (or lack of) and how/if it would be taken care of in prison.

Wow, this story is going to get weirder before it gets....whatever.

 

That question is amusing, but it's also very telling. The press already has these guys in prison. This is the same press that yesterday was reporting about panic, devices, and hoaxes.

 

As for this incident making anyone feel safe, keep in mind that they were in place for two weeks before the bomb squad was notified. How long do you think a real bomb, one without glowing lights calling attention to itself, would have sat there?

Edited by Dinoprophet
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I know from first hand experience that if you put a cardboard box with "oil stains" on it and a cardboard box with a blinking LED on it in front of someone and ask them to choose which box they think the bomb is in most people will pick the one with the blinking LED. A bomb is a very boring looking device and unfortunately it is the Hollywood stereotype bomb (blinking lights and wires) that cause people to have panic attacks.

 

What all Geocachers should learn from this incident is it all comes down to informing the right people. If you are going to place something on someones personal property (including the outside of buildings) you need to ask permission. If you are going to place something on public property you need to inform whoever is responsible for taking care of it. If you fail to this then you should be ready to accept the consequences of your actions or inactions.

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... What all Geocachers should learn from this incident is it all comes down to informing the right people. If you are going to place something on someones personal property (including the outside of buildings) you need to ask permission. If you are going to place something on public property you need to inform whoever is responsible for taking care of it hide the cache well. If you fail to this then you should be ready to accept the consequences of your actions or inactions.
Fixed.
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Yeah....I've been watching the news...all day...it's what I do when I've got nothing better to do (and I'm currently off for the winter)...I saw where these guys were putting them...under bridges wasn't the worst place, there were some other "suspicious" locatons as well. Who were they advertising to under the bridge??? The homeless??

 

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you HAVE already traded your freedom for fear!!! It happened when the Towers fell!! Can't go back now!! And no matter if it's YOUR fear or the mass fear of the community...it's happened!

 

The fact that it did take 2 weeks is probably more scary than you guys standing up for the ones that did this! That, and all the moaning about the charges and how they are soooo "unfair" just emboldens the terrorists to act!! Why not, everyone feels the threat is blown way out of proportion...and it took us so long to act...I'd be glad to see this reaction if I were a terrorist!! Tells me my job will be easier next time because everyone is too worried about their freedoms to fear the real threats.

 

You're worried about our sport over lives??? I would have to think that our sport will be PLENTY safe as long as we adhere to the guidelines in place!! AND I could care less if the terrorists don't know our guidelines...that was silly to say anyway...WE know them and therefore, as long as we do everything proper, we are OK!!

 

I've seen plenty of stories of the bomb squad blowing up ammo boxes (caches), has anyone been charged with being a terrorist??? NO. WHY??? Because we aren't doing something as ignorant as placing an electronic "toy" on a bridge, in the subways or around train stations...COMMON SENSE!!! We don't cause mass panic PURPOSEFULLY..they did that when they chose their locations...go ahead and try to place a suitcase down in an airport PURPOSELY!! Look around suspiciously and just walk away!! See what happens...I'll bet you'll be answering some questions down town at the very least!

 

Go ahead...place an electronic instrument in the bathroom of the bus station...yes, it's a toy...does the next guy know that??? Would you feel comfortable with that being there or would you report it??? I would report it, but then, I've also turned in a lady for leaving her suitcase alone near me for almost 20 minutes in the airport...sure she came back, but there were officers waiting when she did! FOLLOW THE RULES!!!

 

edit to add: yep, those guys ARE trying to help their case...acting like they have no clue is probably best for them..."only answering questions about my hair"...what foolishness!! If I were their Lawyer, I'd have quit on the spot...if they won't take it seriously now, how will they react in court...oh, wait, they were showing them in court...they acted the same way then too!!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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The fact that it did take 2 weeks is probably more scary than you guys standing up for the ones that did this! That, and all the moaning about the charges and how they are soooo "unfair" just emboldens the terrorists to act!! Why not, everyone feels the threat is blown way out of proportion...and it took us so long to act...I'd be glad to see this reaction if I were a terrorist!! Tells me my job will be easier next time because everyone is too worried about their freedoms to fear the real threats....
See, now I know that you are just yanking our chain. The only way your statement could be true is if we assume that terrorists care if they are charged with a crime (or made to make financial restitution. I don't believe that these issues are on their lists of things to worry about.
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no sbell...that statement says that the terrorists are looking to do as much damage an carnage as possible, and by us not being on guard, we facilitate their actions!!

 

I suppose you doubt if the terrorists follow such things???

 

I don't understand your comment about finacial restitution...I don't think a bomber out to kill us, ruin our economy or strike fear and create chaos in our world worries much about "restitution" if they get caught!

 

edit for horrid spelling!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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... What all Geocachers should learn from this incident is it all comes down to informing the right people. If you are going to place something on someones personal property (including the outside of buildings) you need to ask permission. If you are going to place something on public property you need to inform whoever is responsible for taking care of it hide the cache well. If you fail to this then you should be ready to accept the consequences of your actions or inactions.
Fixed.

Thanks. :wub: I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. :blink:

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no sbell...that statement says that the terrorists are looking to do as much damage an carnage as possible, and by us not being on guard, we facilitate their actions!! ...
Please point to the post where anyone suggested that we should not be on guard. I feel that you are using a straw man, here.
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None of this is new - look at the reaction to H.G. Wells broadcast of 'War of the Worlds'.

 

Google "public panic"

 

9/11 and the terrorists are just the latest.

 

A certain portion of the population has been given the leaping fantods over one thing or another forever!

 

We're not living in a 'new world', we've just forgotten our history!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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....I've seen plenty of stories of the bomb squad blowing up ammo boxes (caches), has anyone been charged with being a terrorist??? NO. WHY??? Because we aren't doing something as ignorant as placing an electronic "toy" on a bridge, in the subways or around train stations...COMMON SENSE!!! We don't cause mass panic PURPOSEFULLY..they did that when they chose their locations...go ahead and try to place a suitcase down in an airport PURPOSELY!!...

 

You don't read the same articles that I do. The Rainbow Bridge cache did result in the cacher being charged with "placing debris on state property". The cache was never listed.

 

The folks in the article did not place those with the intent to cause harm. They did to create some hype. If the Boston authorities did what they did in seattle...and just took them down with no fuss there would have been no problem at all.

 

The fact is that Boston responded differently than Seattle. Is that the fault of the people placing the LED gizmo's? The fact is people in both areas were trying to create some marketing hype. They were not yelling fire in a theatre.

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...Terrorists HIDE things. Did anyone see the boxcutters that took down 3 American planes and two skyscrapers?....This could have just as easily happened to any one of us....

 

Terrorists hide things for a different purpose than geocachers. It's an important distinction. One I've had german cachers tell me makes all the difference in their country when caches are found. Here we hit the alarm. There the cache doesn't fit the profile and they turn it in to the lost and found.

 

I've had one of my caches turned in. So has my caching partner Night Stalker. Strangly enough both caches were turned in as drug stashes and so it was the narcotics team that investigated the caches. One was an ammo can and one was a decon container. One was urban and one was near a fishing lake.

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I actually saw one of these in Seattle's Capitol Hill area about two weeks ago. My first thought was, "Cool! More high-tech graffiti!"

 

But then maybe it's because I'd visited Graffiti Research Lab before, and have friends that are into making LED Throwies.

 

This kind of thing has been going on as a hobby for a while. Lighted non-damaging graffiti. Projector art on the sides of buildings. "Laser tagging". Making inexpensive yet sturdy chairs out of cardboard for people to sit on in New York's public areas.

 

This kind of reaction by the government and especially the media (who keeps insisting on calling it a "device") endangers any kind of creative public activities, including LED Throwing and Geocaching. Worse, it imposes a greater culture of fear where even political protests become endangered as possible "terrorist activity".

 

I think the terrorists have already won.

 

Luna

 

Very nice post.

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Seattle knew what they were before going after them...the ad company came forward (or was it the TV company that hired the ad company). They may not have been intending to cause harm, but they surely should have known the problems this would cause!! Remember the "runaway bride" a while back...she was made to pay restitution as well (I can't remember if she was ever charged)...did she mean to have the LEOs looking for her??? NO, but that is what happened

 

Those cachers may have been charged with...what was it...littering?? I doubt that is as serious as the charges these guys are looking at!!

 

I am grasping at no straws here sbell, it has been said that this is a bunch of todo over nothing...I said that if that's how everyone will feel toward this, how will they react to the real thing??? Sounds like you're letting down your gaurd to me...but...I'd hope you'd stay vigil!!

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... Remember the "runaway bride" a while back...she was made to pay restitution as well (I can't remember if she was ever charged)...did she mean to have the LEOs looking for her??? NO, but that is what happened ...
Ummm, she claimed that she had been kidnapped and sexually assaulted. She then repeating the false claims to investigating officers. This resulted in a felony indictment of giving false information to police, a charge that could have resulted in up to five years of imprisonment. She pleaded no contest to the charge. As part of her plea bargain, she was sentenced to two years' probation and 120 hours of community service and was ordered to pay $2,250 in restitution.

 

Surely, you can see the difference between that situation and this one.

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I do have a few problems with all this though...I question why the LEOs never checked these out if they were so prominently placed (as some really were)...one answer to that is easy though...no one complained. I would guess the LEOs thought the items were in place on most of those businesses with permission...but why did they act like this when they realized what these were (since they probably had seen them before the complaint). My guess to this would be that maybe not all had seen these and were merely doing their job after the "toy" was found!! I think it's the location of the item more than anything else that brought about the response!

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... Remember the "runaway bride" a while back...she was made to pay restitution as well (I can't remember if she was ever charged)...did she mean to have the LEOs looking for her??? NO, but that is what happened ...
Ummm, she claimed that she had been kidnapped and sexually assaulted. She then repeating the false claims to investigating officers. This resulted in a felony indictment of giving false information to police, a charge that could have resulted in up to five years of imprisonment. She pleaded no contest to the charge. As part of her plea bargain, she was sentenced to two years' probation and 120 hours of community service and was ordered to pay $2,250 in restitution.

 

Surely, you can see the difference between that situation and this one.

 

Yes, yes she did...as soon as she realized the trouble she was in, she tried to protect herself from being charged with a crime or whatever...and she was thinking she might be able to get back together with her hubby-to-be...stupid way to react, but then she DID run away and not tell anyone for all that time!! I'd guess as soon as she saw the reports on the news, she knew she'd better come up with something!!

 

That doesn't change the fact that this is much the same thing. Intent wasn't there, yet she did cause a panic!!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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... Remember the "runaway bride" a while back...she was made to pay restitution as well (I can't remember if she was ever charged)...did she mean to have the LEOs looking for her??? NO, but that is what happened ...
Ummm, she claimed that she had been kidnapped and sexually assaulted. She then repeating the false claims to investigating officers. This resulted in a felony indictment of giving false information to police, a charge that could have resulted in up to five years of imprisonment. She pleaded no contest to the charge. As part of her plea bargain, she was sentenced to two years' probation and 120 hours of community service and was ordered to pay $2,250 in restitution.

 

Surely, you can see the difference between that situation and this one.

 

Yes, yes she did...as soon as she realized the trouble she was in, she tried to protect herself from being charged with a crime or whatever...and she was thinking she might be able to get back together with her hubby-to-be...stupid way to react, but then she DID run away and not tell anyone for all that time!! I'd guess as soon as she saw the reports on the news, she knew she'd better come up with something!!

The thing is, until she had lied to the police, she could not have been charged with a crime (because she hadn't committed one). Even though costs were incurred in looking for her, she would not have been on the hook for them since she didn't direct anyone to find her. It is not against the law to fall off the face of the earth and not tell your family and friends.
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... That doesn't change the fact that this is much the same thing. Intent wasn't there, yet she did cause a panic!!
Sorry, you added that after I started to respond.

 

In the case of the 'runaway bride', intent was there. She willfully lied to the police and was punished for it. She wasn't punished for disappearing and causing her friends and family to go into a panic.

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Why would she have made up the story if she didn't perceive herself to be in trouble??? Yes to save face with the family and hubby-to-be, but I'd guess it was much more than that, she was worried there would be restitution (I know, just a guess, but the story was made up before she returned making it seem she knew by the reports on TV that she had better have a good story)...wasn't there speculation before she returned that she may have run away and if so, she'd be held accountable???

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....I am grasping at no straws here sbell, it has been said that this is a bunch of todo over nothing...I said that if that's how everyone will feel toward this, how will they react to the real thing??? Sounds like you're letting down your gaurd to me...but...I'd hope you'd stay vigil!!

 

I am not sure you are seeing the point.

 

People do odd things that never cause a problem because life is good.

Someone builds a bomb, and blows something up. That's a real problem.

The government creates a bomb squad to respond to bombs.

The government can't be everywere so they encourage people to call in things that look suspicouse.

People start calling in things that look suspiciouse. Plus now there are bombs out there! Oh My!

The bomb squad starts responding to flashlights, whoopie cushions, strong smelling foods, boxes of shoes and a buch of false alarms. They do find the occasional bomb.

 

Now government is faced with a choice.

they got what they asked for. People calling in suspiciouse things, but most of them are false. So they can.

 

A) Chalk it to to the cost of being vigulant. At the press confernece they can say "Better safe than sorry, remember that while this was a false alarm, we wan't you to report anything suspicious so we can do our job, because the truth is, next time it may not be a false alarm"

 

or

 

:blink: Blame all those odd things people did for wasting taxpayer money and start banning things that made life good but which lead to false alarms. Which at some level is just about everthing we do.

 

We want A. Not B. B leads to banning things, activities, and more jail time for people who are at worst guilty of not being the sharpest tool in the shed.

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Why would she have made up the story if she didn't perceive herself to be in trouble??? Yes to save face with the family and hubby-to-be, but I'd guess it was much more than that, she was worried there would be restitution (I know, just a guess, but the story was made up before she returned making it seem she knew by the reports on TV that she had better have a good story)...wasn't there speculation before she returned that she may have run away and if so, she'd be held accountable???

She's not the most stable isotope in the lab. I'm not going to try to understand her motivations.
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Hoax device statutes seemingly exist in most jurisdictions. They do not seem to rely on "intent" for the finding of culpability, some seemingly take it down to the criminal negligence standard for finding culpability.

 

The last peole I knew of who were prosecuted for a hoax called in a bomb threat on a buss. There was no bomb. They did make a threat.

 

I've never read the actual laws that define a hoax.

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Yeah....I've been watching the news...all day...it's what I do when I've got nothing better to do (and I'm currently off for the winter)...I saw where these guys were putting them...under bridges wasn't the worst place, there were some other "suspicious" locatons as well. Who were they advertising to under the bridge??? The homeless?? ...
This flew by a little while ago and I didn't think of commenting, but it is my understanding that the bridge was an overpass.
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Hoax device statutes seemingly exist in most jurisdictions. They do not seem to rely on "intent" for the finding of culpability, some seemingly take it down to the criminal negligence standard for finding culpability.
...I've never read the actual laws that define a hoax.
Chapter 266: Section 102A1/2. (a.) Whoever possesses, transports, uses or places or causes another to knowingly or unknowingly possess, transport, use or place any hoax device or hoax substance with the intent to cause anxiety, unrest, fear or personal discomfort to any person or group of persons shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than five years or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

 

(b.) For the purposes of this section, the term "hoax device" shall mean any device that would cause a person reasonably to believe that such device is an infernal machine. For the purposes of this section, the term "infernal machine" shall mean any device for endangering life or doing unusual damage to property, or both, by fire or explosion, whether or not contrived to ignite or explode automatically. For the purposes of this section, the words "hoax substance" shall mean any substance that would cause a person reasonably to believe that such substance is a harmful chemical or biological agent, a poison, a harmful radioactive substance or any other substance for causing serious bodily injury, endangering life or doing unusual damage to property, or both.

Edited by sbell111
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Lunaverse...did the LEOs KNOW these guys were harmless LED artists??? NO!

 

sbell...overpass, bridge...pretty much the same thing isn't it???

 

Renegade...while I'm understanding what you are saying, you must realize that someone purposely placing something in a place like an overpass, train or bus station etc (as these bozos did) causes REAL danger worries...if they had placed them on businesses with permission this wouldn't have happened at all!! Since they DID cause this problem, they shoud pay!! They chose to be sneaky, they got bit for it!! ASK permission and play by the rules!! That goes for all walks of life, not just geocachers!!

 

I, for one, am HAPPY that we have the bomb squads and other LEOs out there doing their jobs, I'm HAPPY that there are all these people coming forward when something doesn't look right...if we lose these things, we may as well paint a target on our @sses and wait to be bombed!

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the post you added with the statute says it all...not what you boldened...the b section!!! ANY DEVICE that would cause a person REASONABLY to believe that such device is an "infernal machine"!!! BINGO!!
First, per parapraph A, intent must be shown. Second, I suspect that a good defense lawyer would show one of these items in court and convince the jury that it looks much more like a Lite-Brite than an infernal machine. In my opinion, both paragraph A and paragraph B supports the defense.
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Hoax device statutes seemingly exist in most jurisdictions. They do not seem to rely on "intent" for the finding of culpability, some seemingly take it down to the criminal negligence standard for finding culpability.

If that turns out to be the case here, I hope the court will consider how un-bomb-like these things were.

 

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you HAVE already traded your freedom for fear!!! It happened when the Towers fell!! Can't go back now!! And no matter if it's YOUR fear or the mass fear of the community...it's happened!

I half agree with you, and it's what I'm complaining about. I, personally, have not traded freedom for fear. My day-to-day life is not one iota different than before 9/11. The mass fear of others, however, does intrude on my freedom, and this is an example. That irritates me, to say the least. I disagree when you say we can't go back. By speaking out against this sort of reaction and insisting our leaders use intelligent vigilence, we can go back.

 

The fact that it did take 2 weeks is probably more scary than you guys standing up for the ones that did this! That, and all the moaning about the charges and how they are soooo "unfair" just emboldens the terrorists to act!! Why not, everyone feels the threat is blown way out of proportion...and it took us so long to act...I'd be glad to see this reaction if I were a terrorist!! Tells me my job will be easier next time because everyone is too worried about their freedoms to fear the real threats.

This wasn't a real threat!!!!!! I want the authorites to deal with real threats!! This was $750K that could have been spent on real security instead of wasting resources on things that were so incredibly unthreatening.

 

You're worried about our sport over lives??? I would have to think that our sport will be PLENTY safe as long as we adhere to the guidelines in place!! AND I could care less if the terrorists don't know our guidelines...that was silly to say anyway...WE know them and therefore, as long as we do everything proper, we are OK!!

I don't think anyone has even implied being more worried about geocaching than lives. Any mention of caching here is meant to keep the thread out of the Off Topic forum.

 

I've seen plenty of stories of the bomb squad blowing up ammo boxes (caches), has anyone been charged with being a terrorist??? NO. WHY??? Because we aren't doing something as ignorant as placing an electronic "toy" on a bridge, in the subways or around train stations...COMMON SENSE!!! We don't cause mass panic PURPOSEFULLY..they did that when they chose their locations...go ahead and try to place a suitcase down in an airport PURPOSELY!! Look around suspiciously and just walk away!! See what happens...I'll bet you'll be answering some questions down town at the very least!

 

Go ahead...place an electronic instrument in the bathroom of the bus station...yes, it's a toy...does the next guy know that??? Would you feel comfortable with that being there or would you report it??? I would report it, but then, I've also turned in a lady for leaving her suitcase alone near me for almost 20 minutes in the airport...sure she came back, but there were officers waiting when she did! FOLLOW THE RULES!!!

You continue to assume bombs look like bombs and will be left out in the open, as opposed to inside a toilet, under a sink, buried in the trash can. No, I probably would not report it. I guess the terrorist who is too lazy to bother hiding his weapon would get me. An abandoned backpack or suitcase, I would probably report.

 

What happened when the woman returned? There were officers waiting and......

 

Let me introduce everyone to Bruce Schneier, deity of security. Read a few of his essays on security theater and threat assessment. Very enlightening.

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A) Chalk it to to the cost of being vigulant. At the press confernece they can say "Better safe than sorry, remember that while this was a false alarm, we wan't you to report anything suspicious so we can do our job, because the truth is, next time it may not be a false alarm"

 

 

This is an excellent point! I think an attitude like this would pretty much cover both sides -- let people have their free speech in public places (within reason -- which I think LEDs are totally within reason), and still provide for public safety.

 

It lets LED artists do their thing, and us do our thing, and regular normal people who watch TV and shop and Macy's do their thing.

 

The alternative is the present attitude -- if you've acted out of the norm, you must have been doing something evil.

 

Luna

Edited by Lunaverse
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with the same thought that BOMBS don't look like bombs...why would anyone NOT perceive a threat from that item that looks out of place??? MAYBE because they THOUGHT it could be a bomb!!!

 

A cacher should know as much as anyone...hiding something in plain sight is the best method!!

 

Here's an idea. Let's put cameras inside everyone's houses so we always know what people are doing. Then we'll make people report each week on how they spent all their time. That way, we'd always know when someone is planning any kind of crime -- not just terrorism, maybe even robberies too.

 

Then we'll make all the buildings and yards and cars and houses all look the same, so it will be easy to spot anything that's out of place. No one can put anything where it doesn't belong. This will have the added benefit of making everything look tidy and preventing litter.

 

All art will be approved by a committee, to make sure it is safe for our minds, and to make sure there are no bombs in it. Any new ways of doing things will also be approved by a committee.

 

Then we will all be safe and sound, and we'll only be able to die of car accidents and hamburger fat, the way it was meant to be -- heck, if we have cameras everywhere, we could even ban hamburgers and force people to eat organic salad so everyone will live to 100.

 

It won't be a very interesting life, but we will maximize lifespan and orderliness. Lots of security (for everyone that falls well within the norm), and no freedom. Better?

 

Luna

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the post you added with the statute says it all...not what you boldened...the b section!!! ANY DEVICE that would cause a person REASONABLY to believe that such device is an "infernal machine"!!! BINGO!!

...

 

Since bombs (and hoax devices) can look like anything, it's reasonable to assume that anything out of the ordnary could be a bomb or hoax device. Thus EVERYTHING is a hoax device as defined by that law. The key thing though is that intent that was highlighted.

 

Everone here is glad that LEO's do their job. It's the optional ranting and raving of a few political types who want to throw the book at someone. The goverment assumed the risk of false alarms the moment they created bomb squads. They should not blame the citizens they are protecting.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Distilled version from Boston news:

Two stoner art-school grads got a contract to place "intallment art" advertizements. They have no clue about sign laws. The hiring ad company uses spray paint at times and "street prophets" on soap boxes blah, blah, blah to be hip, trendy, cutting edge, whatever, to create a product "buzz". Turner Co was dumb to hire Inference Inc, who in turn was stupid enough not to clue the bozos in about basic legalities / common sense / responsible behavior while playing "guerilla marketing".

Botton line, Turner / Inference should pony up the $$$. I would hope Turner Co would start shoveling $$$ ASAP and toss some free ads for the Boston Arts Council (maybe marketing 101 for stoner artists too).

 

As a side note, only one was placed where the target market might "get it"... I don't see too many people arguing here from the area. I doubt you have ever been stuck in Boston when traffic is shut down or had the pleasure of sitting on the T for a couple hours. If I was stuck on 93, I'd be P-O'd, and just as upset with some of the Bevis & Butthead Generation's replies I've seen on some news forums.

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