Letterbox Hybrid Guideline

[+Renegade Knight]

My opinion is that the hybrid should match as closely as possible a letterbox. The coordinates should take you to where the letterbox owner would have you start. How you find the starting point could be GPS (since this site wants coordinates to be used) or based on the description.

But my earlier point is, if the site wanted to do that it would list Letterboxes instead of Letterbox Hybrids. What you're describing is letterboxing, and if someone wanted to go letterboxing why would they do it on a cache site?

 

My opinion is that the Hybrids allow cachers to find the containers just like they would any other regular cache, except these containers also happen to be used for letterboxing by a different group of people.

 

Before my time, the story goes that Jeremy did approach letterboxing about listing letterboxes. Much like this site listed all of the first sites caches (and then replaced that site). That didn't go over well with the letterboxing folks and so hybrids were born. Intended to be cross listed letterboxes.

 

That's as I understand it.

 

A letterbox has a different history and tradition but it's still finding a box in the woods and so it fits well with geocaching. However I would not dishonor that tradtion by force fitting "Traditional cache" rules on a cross listed hybrid. The only reason you actually need a hybrid is because this site is organized by coordinates and doesn't really implement 'area' based searches that don't show coordinates.

[Mushtang]

What we usually see is Mushtang and his brother KBI arguing that if something is not against the guidelines it should be allowed.

Close. In the case of ALR caches, I've said that they should be listed appropriately (as regular caches), according to the guideline definitions (since the caches are at the listed coords). I also agree with deleting logs that don't follow the requirements, which isn't addressed in the guidelines. (I guess this is what you're talking about when you say "not against the guidelines"?)

 

In this case I'm suggesting that since the guidelines do describe how a Letterbox Hybrid cache should be listed (as I understand them - I've also stated that I'm prepared to be told that I'm wrong if TPTB ever do weigh in), then people should follow those guidelines too.

 

Here he is arguing that way the guidelines are written letterbox hybrids must conform to the requirements for a traditional cache.

It would be more accurate to say that "Here he is arguing that Letterbox Hybrids should conform to the requirements for a Letterbox Hybrid, and not for letterboxing".

 

I've also clearly stated that it makes more sense to use a letterbox attribute (your good suggestion) instead of a cache type, so that ANY cache can end up with a container that is also listed as a letterbox. This way, no matter what the cache type is, the cacher knows what to expect. I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

[J.A.R.S.]

My opinion is that the hybrid should match as closely as possible a letterbox. The coordinates should take you to where the letterbox owner would have you start. How you find the starting point could be GPS (since this site wants coordinates to be used) or based on the description.

But my earlier point is, if the site wanted to do that it would list Letterboxes instead of Letterbox Hybrids. What you're describing is letterboxing, and if someone wanted to go letterboxing why would they do it on a cache site?

What we usually see is Mushtang and his brother KBI arguing that if something is not against the guidelines it should be allowed. Here he is arguing that way the guidelines are written letterbox hybrids must conform to the requirements for a traditional cache. In either case trying to interpret the guidelines literally as if they came from Jeremy carved on stone tablets may be where we get into problems. I suspect that the reviewers get to see the rationale and intent of the guidelines. We, however, are kept in the dark by the priests and are left with either having to accept the fundamentalist interpretation or run the risk of being heretics.

 

-----------------

Some of the things Jeremy has said about the definition of a letterbox hybrid:

I'm sure some have tradable items. The intent was to inform folks not to take the stamp (and the alternative way to find the letterbox without a GPS)

Post preview: #2105339

So don't expect hybrids to go anywhere because they accomplish three goals:

 

1. Make people aware not to take the stamp and to introduce folks to a sister activity. (Just a mention to those who think otherwise, Geocaching did not spawn from letterboxing but was a completely different concept created without prior knowledge of letterboxing.)

 

2. Allow an alternate method for finding a geocache without a GPS receiver, and...

 

3. Provide a searching method for some letterboxes that have a starting coordinate.

Post preview #2123673

As indicated before a letterboxing hybrid is merely a geocache that has a stamp and a logbook instead of tradable items. It's a way for people to understand not to, for example, take the stamp.

Post Preview: #1894060

 

J.A.R.S.

 

P.S. I like the flexibility I currently enjoy with my letterbox hybrids. I'm fortunate that my local reviewer does not have a narrow definition about letterboxes. I've used the more traditional off-set method, I've also used the direct method, and I've used a combo where I use the off-set method but also include an additional waypoint.

[J.A.R.S.]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

 

I think one should expect a letterbox hybrid to be an off-set, and read the instructions before attempting the box.

 

J.A.R.S.

[J.A.R.S.]

Cachers should not be able to short circuit the spirit and intent of the letterbox just because they are holding a GPS.

Why not? If they're supposed to have the exact same experience, why don't they just go letterboxing instead?

 

Here's why I want to post my letterboxes on gc.com:

• I love this site with all its bells & whistles
  
• gc.com has online logs so finders can post their experience
  
• Geocachers tend to be more verbose and leave interesting online logs. On average letterboxers do not contact me when they find my letterboxes and they leave a signature stamp image but no message (probably because they don't want to take too much room up in the logbook).
  
• LBNA and AQ do not have online logs. On gc.com finders can use the online logs to warn each other if the area the box is planted in is dangerous (e.g. drug hangout) or if there's something to look out for (e.g. poison ivy). Can't do that on LBNA or AQ.
  
• LBNA has finds/attempts but they're hidden and box owners can disable this feature. AQ has find/attempts (owners cannot disable this feature) but no online logs.
  
• gc.com is finder-centric. The finder gets plenty of information to make a decision about whether the cache is one they would want to look for.
  
• LBNA has many letterboxes that are missing but still active on the site. You try to contact the owner but they don't respond because they've left the game. LBNA doesn't seem to be concerned - the philosophy seems to be that it doesn't matter whether the box is there or not, it's about enjoying the journey.
  
• If I posted only on AQ and LBNA I'd get maybe 5 visitors a year
  
• gc.com encourages cache maintenance, with features like "needs maintenance" and "should be archived"
  

[+tozainamboku]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

Then you should read the cache page before you go looking for a cache.

[CoyoteRed]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

Then you should read the cache page before you go looking for a cache.

 

ZING!

[+ePeterso2]

My opinion is that the Hybrids allow cachers to find the containers just like they would any other regular cache, except these containers also happen to be used for letterboxing by a different group of people.

That's what I've always thought it was, based upon my reading of the placement guidelines. I mean, the description of the Letterbox Hybrid is one of the few places where the guidelines are pretty specific - it says that it must conform to the requirements for a Traditional cache, and a Traditional cache has the explicit requirement that "The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache." So, according to the guidelines, the coordinates of an LH must be the location of the cache, not the starting point of the trail to the cache. Anything else is a multi.

 

That said, the nearest Letterbox Hybrid to me has coordinates that point to the parking lot, then a set of directions to find the box from there. It's pretty easy to find, but there are a number of log entries that say "Man, I wish I had had the cache page with me instead of just the coordinates in my GPSr."

 

It's all just names, though ... gimme the clues and I'll find it, regardless of what it's called.

 

-eP

[+Markwell]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

Then you should read the cache page before you go looking for a cache.

 

Around here there are so few letterbox hybrids that I could count the ones within 100 miles on one hand. Knowing that, I would be familiar with them ahead of time and maybe spin them so they have a different icon on my GPS. If I wanted to just "go to the coordinates" I would probably search for a traditional cache.

[Mushtang]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

Then you should read the cache page before you go looking for a cache.

Unlike some people that complain about wishing they didn't have to, it's very rare that I don't read the description of a cache page before heading out. Every once in a while I won't read it for whatever reason (didn't have my PDA with me, left the print out in the car, whatever) and end up looking for it anyway. Also, unlike other people in these forums, if not reading the page resulted in me not finding the cache or getting credit for the find, I'd be WAY to embarrased to come to the forums and complain about it as though it was the hiders fault.

 

I'll admit ignorance of letterboxing since I've never been (and never want to go). My statement you quoted was based on my perception that to go letterboxing you follow clues left behind by the hider. If someone hid a cache letterbox style wouldn't I end up finding clues instead of a cache? What I wouldn't want to happen is for someone to hide a letterbox, list it as a cache, assume I knew I'd be following clues since it was listed as a Hybrid, and the description not mention it.

 

Following many clues to get to a cache is GREAT if that's what you're looking for. I do enjoy multi-caches. However, if one were listed as a regular cache, you went to find it and discovered it was a 5 step multi, wouldn't you wish it had been listed correctly? That's my point.

[Mushtang]

I entered this debate because I didn't think it would be fun to go looking for a Letterbox Hybrid, expecting it to be at the posted coords, and instead find the first of many clues that would lead me on a multi-cache type hunt.

Then you should read the cache page before you go looking for a cache.

 

ZING!

I know you've been waiting a LONG time to do that.

 

Are you going to contribute anything useful to the thread? I know you're a letterboxer and should have something to say. I'd like to hear what your opinion is of letterbox hybrids. Are they letterboxes that are listed on this site, and therefore should be a "follow the clues" kind of search? Or are they caches that happen to be letterboxes too, and therefore should be a "use your GPSr to find the container" kind of search?

[+sbell111]

My opinion is that the Hybrids allow cachers to find the containers just like they would any other regular cache, except these containers also happen to be used for letterboxing by a different group of people.

That's what I've always thought it was, based upon my reading of the placement guidelines. I mean, the description of the Letterbox Hybrid is one of the few places where the guidelines are pretty specific - it says that it must conform to the requirements for a Traditional cache, and a Traditional cache has the explicit requirement that "The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache." ...

I suspect that this is a typo that has never been caught before. I don't believe that it was ever TPTB's intent to require that letterbox hybrids not be offset. I suspect that if TPTB were to require them to go one way or the other, that they would choose for them to be off-set caches, since that is more in the spirit of letterboxing.

 

Personally, I'd just as soon the letterbox hybrid cache type go away. This is something that would be better resolved through the use of attributes, in my opinion.

[CoyoteRed]

I know you've been waiting a LONG time to do that.

You bet!

 

Are you going to contribute anything useful to the thread? I know you're a letterboxer and should have something to say. I'd like to hear what your opinion is of letterbox hybrids. Are they letterboxes that are listed on this site, and therefore should be a "follow the clues" kind of search? Or are they caches that happen to be letterboxes too, and therefore should be a "use your GPSr to find the container" kind of search?

Well, I'm still waiting to hear from TPTB about my query.

 

The way it was explained to me long ago by some pretty high up folks was that a letterbox hybrid is, like the guidelines say, a mixture of a geocache and a letterbox. Though hybrids are looked at closer than other types, they have to have grid coordinates as part of the hunt and those coordinates could not be to some easily identifiable object--like "Summerville Public Library"--along at least one path. There could be multiple paths like one being a simple offset like a multi and a series of verbal clues--each independent of the other. Hybrids could be a traditional cache with a stamp. In other words, hybrids could be very, very flexible, but treated much like any non-traditional in the respect you need to read the description.

 

The standard a hybrid is held to is different than, say, a night cache where the coordinates are to a parking area and you follow the glints to the cache. Not much GPS use there. No big deal to me as I'm after the adventure, not necessarily the use of a toy. (Though, that's fun, too.)

 

I agree with sbell that the wording of the guidelines is unfortunate in that, IMHO, "traditional" was not meant to be referred to as a type, but more like all physical caches. The phrase "...they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook" to me should be taken inclusively meaning that hybrids must contain a logbook like any traditional cache. If the phrase really meant they must conform to all guidelines of a traditional cache type, then the addition including and following "...and therefore..." would not be needed.

 

Regardless of my opinion, it seems the reviewers have varying interpretations of the passage. I'm still waiting for a clarification and it really hinges on whether "traditional" means the cache type or in more of broader sense of "physical cache" or "non-hybrid."

 

My interest, though, is merely academic. I have no intentions of placing more hybrids.

[+ePeterso2]

I don't believe that it was ever TPTB's intent to require that letterbox hybrids not be offset. I suspect that if TPTB were to require them to go one way or the other, that they would choose for them to be off-set caches, since that is more in the spirit of letterboxing.

That would make a lot more sense, since all the letterboxes near me seem to fit the bill of multi or offset cache.

 

Personally, I'd just as soon the letterbox hybrid cache type go away. This is something that would be better resolved through the use of attributes, in my opinion.

I agree completely. There's no real reason for it to be a separate type ... an attribute would be better. Then you could declare the cache as any relevant type (traditional, multi, mystery) and have it be a Letterbox Hybrid.

 

-eP

Edited January 31, 2007 by ePeterso2

[+Super_Nate]

I am bumping this thread because I have not yet seen official word from those in charge as to what the true interpretation to this guideline is.

[Max Cacher]

I am bumping this thread because I have not yet seen official word from those in charge as to what the true interpretation to this guideline is.

 

patience, grasshopper, patience

 

its being discussed, when we know , will post it

 

Max Cacher

[+Super_Nate]

I am bumping this thread because I have not yet seen official word from those in charge as to what the true interpretation to this guideline is.

 

patience, grasshopper, patience

 

its being discussed, when we know , will post it

 

Max Cacher

 

All right....thanks! I apologize...didn't realize that it was taken to the private forums. Take your time!

[+ePeterso2]

private forum access plz k thx bai

[Max Cacher]

Check out the updated guidelines, on this topic.

 

"The reviewers talked about this and asked Groundspeak to clarify what they meant. The new guidelines say that a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates. We're happy to have better guidance, and this gives more flexibility for creative caches."

 

Thanks Keystone

 

Max Cacher

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer // Moderator

[J.A.R.S.]

Check out the updated guidelines, on this topic.

 

"The reviewers talked about this and asked Groundspeak to clarify what they meant. The new guidelines say that a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates. We're happy to have better guidance, and this gives more flexibility for creative caches."

 

Thanks Keystone

 

Max Cacher

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer // Moderator

 

I found this definition via the Hide & Seek page:

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

Letterbox Hybrid

 

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues to direct hunters to a hidden container. Each letterbox contains a stamp which is the signature for that box. Most letterboxers have their own personal stamps and personal logbooks. They stamp the letterbox logbook with their personal stamp, and use the stamp contained in the letterbox to “sign” their personal logbook.

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Will these guidelines be updated soon and include the new information that "a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates".

 

Thank you moderators for coming up with a more clear and flexible definition.

 

J.A.R.S.

[+Quiggle]

I found this definition via the Hide & Seek page:

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

Letterbox Hybrid

 

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues to direct hunters to a hidden container. Each letterbox contains a stamp which is the signature for that box. Most letterboxers have their own personal stamps and personal logbooks. They stamp the letterbox logbook with their personal stamp, and use the stamp contained in the letterbox to “sign” their personal logbook.

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Will these guidelines be updated soon and include the new information that "a letterbox hybrid doesn't have to be a traditional cache located at the posted coordinates".

 

Thank you moderators for coming up with a more clear and flexible definition.

 

J.A.R.S.

That is the new guideline. It used to say "Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook." Now it just says they need to conform to guidelines for geocaches, but not specifically stating traditional caches which is at the posted coordinates.