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Super_Nate

Letterbox Hybrid Guideline

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A new location in my area has just popped up that would be perfect for a letterbox hybrid. Before going through the process of getting it published (setting it up, and reporting the listing) I want to clairify something.

 

One thing that I am checking the status of is what a reviewer posted to a letterbox that I was trying to list....it said:

Hello

 

{from the guidelines}

 

“”GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions””

 

Wherever the letter box is placed has to be the posted coordinates at the top of the cache page. If you want them to have the option of finding it the old way you can list the parking coordinates in the text of the cache page and then either spell it out on the cache page on how to find it by degrees and distance, or cross list it on letterbox.com and link to it from the cache page.

 

We are discussing this type of cache right now in the reviewer forums, will let you know the out come

 

This happened in August 2006!

 

I never heard an outcome, and I am wondering if a letterbox can be published without having to ruin the reason behind letterboxes, which is using clues instead of GPS coords to find the box.

 

Can the coords listed be for the starting point, and the coords for the box be clearly marked in an additional waypoint for the reviewer?

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... <snip> I am wondering if a letterbox can be published without having to ruin the reason behind letterboxes, which is using clues instead of GPS coords to find the box. <snip>

 

Yes. On the Letterboxing site. This is GC.com

 

If i'm reading your question wrong it won't be my first misunderstanding in this forum. But .... are you asking if you can list a Geocache with only finding instructions suitable for a Letterbox? I hope the answer is no. I understand a hide can be a Geocache AND a Letterbox (listed on both sites). But if it is listed at GC.com it should comply with Geocache standards. There is no category called "Geocache Letterbox".

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I never heard an outcome, and I am wondering if a letterbox can be published without having to ruin the reason behind letterboxes, which is using clues instead of GPS coords to find the box.

 

Can the coords listed be for the starting point, and the coords for the box be clearly marked in an additional waypoint for the reviewer?

Such a cache might properly be considered a multi. I had a multi published recently (GC1069P) which essentially is exactly that - coords take you to the starting point, letterboxish style directions take you to the final.

 

The definition of a Letterbox Hybrid cache clearly states that it must comply with being a traditional cache, not a multi, which is unfortunate. Letterboxes are more like multis than traditionals.

 

-eP

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There has been no change in the guidelines for letterbox hybrids. GPS usage must be an integral *part* of the hunt. That allows for combinations of coords and clues.

 

I interpret "integral" as requiring more than the coordinates for the parking lot. Take me to a random spot in the woods with GPS, then start the letterbox clues from there.

 

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

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... <snip> I am wondering if a letterbox can be published without having to ruin the reason behind letterboxes, which is using clues instead of GPS coords to find the box. <snip>

 

Yes. On the Letterboxing site. This is GC.com

 

If i'm reading your question wrong it won't be my first misunderstanding in this forum. But .... are you asking if you can list a Geocache with only finding instructions suitable for a Letterbox? I hope the answer is no. I understand a hide can be a Geocache AND a Letterbox (listed on both sites). But if it is listed at GC.com it should comply with Geocache standards. There is no category called "Geocache Letterbox".

 

That is pretty much the deal.

 

As Cardinal Red said, a letterbox hybrid is and geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is found like a letterbox. If the coordinates take you to a spot and clues are used to bring you the rest of the way to the cache, that is an offset cache, not a letterbox hybrid. I think this is where the confusion happens.

 

I think as far as geocaching.com's point of view, a letterbox hybrid needs a stamp and that's all. Its not required that it be cross listed on a LB site. That is entirely up to the owner, but it would be pointless to create a letterbox hybrid if letterboxers don't know about it.

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Okay....so I think this question got misinterpeted! I will use an example instead of me trying to explain it!

 

This cache is an example of what I am wanting to do.

 

The coords for that cache is not for the actual container, but for a picnic area in a remote part of the trail. You then use the cache listing to give you clues to follow to take you to the letterbox cache.

 

Two more examples include this one and this one

 

My question is not...can it be cross-listed....my question is can I do a letterbox like the examples that I have provided?

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One thing that I am checking the status of is what a reviewer posted to a letterbox that I was trying to list....it said:
...

 

Wherever the letter box is placed has to be the posted coordinates at the top of the cache page. If you want them to have the option of finding it the old way you can list the parking coordinates in the text of the cache page and then either spell it out on the cache page on how to find it by degrees and distance, or cross list it on letterbox.com and link to it from the cache page.

 

We are discussing this type of cache right now in the reviewer forums, will let you know the out come

 

Sounds like the reviewer is telling you to place and list the hybrid as a traditional, but only call it a hybrid. This runs completely contrary to the spirit of what I've always thought a hybrid was and how I've gotten hybrids approved in the past.

 

So, unless the guidelines have changed, and Keystone says they haven't, then your reviewer has it wrong.

 

It also sounds like more than a few in this very thread have got it wrong.

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It also sounds like more than a few in this very thread have got it wrong.

 

Well, that is because I worded my question a little off! I am going to lay out my letterbox this next week and get it reported...If I have a problem getting it published, then I will refer back to this thread.

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That is entirely up to the owner, but it would be pointless to create a letterbox hybrid if letterboxers don't know about it.

 

Actually, quite a few boxers know hybrids are listed here. You don't have to be a member to get the clues.

 

One of the attractions of letterboxing is you never know where clues will turn up. We've hunted a few where we were simply handed a print-out or found one in another box. Sometimes you find them on personal websites.

 

GC.com can be such a repository. Place the letterbox clues on the page and create an offset for the GPS users. Win-win.

 

Try logging out and scour your zipcode for boxes. When you find one, and if the box clues are on that page, then you can hunt it exactly like a letterbox.

 

Personally, I'm less inclined to place a hybrid because of the issues of trying to combine the two hobbies into one box. IMHO, it's not a smooth and easy fit. While it is doable, for me it's not worth the trouble.

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Okay....so I think this question got misinterpeted! I will use an example instead of me trying to explain it!

 

This cache is an example of what I am wanting to do.

 

The coords for that cache is not for the actual container, but for a picnic area in a remote part of the trail. You then use the cache listing to give you clues to follow to take you to the letterbox cache.

 

Two more examples include this one and this one

 

My question is not...can it be cross-listed....my question is can I do a letterbox like the examples that I have provided?

 

Not misinterpreted at all. The caches you linked to are offset caches. The presence of a stamp is what makes it a letterbox hybrid, not the method of finding it. The use of a GPS must be an integral part of the hunt for the cache to be listed on GC.COM (though use of a GPS is kind of iffy in GCQ0DR, not sure how that one got published).

 

Sounds like the reviewer is telling you to place and list the hybrid as a traditional, but only call it a hybrid. This runs completely contrary to the spirit of what I've always thought a hybrid was and how I've gotten hybrids approved in the past.

 

The reviewer is correct. A LB hybrid can be directly referenced by coordinates. As I mentioned earlier, a LB hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not necessarily a geocache that is found like a letterbox.

 

Actually, quite a few boxers know hybrids are listed here. You don't have to be a member to get the clues.

 

I know that is possible, but I didn't think many LBers would come here. What do I know? Glad to hear it.t

Edited by briansnat
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Guidelines for a Letterbox hybird:

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook. They must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

 

Guidelines for a Traditional :

 

This is the original cache type consisting of (at a bare minimum) a container and a logbook. The cache may be filled with objects for trade. Normally you'll find a Tupperware-style container, ammo box, or bucket filled with goodies, or smaller container ("microcache") too small to contain items except for a logbook. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache. A container with just an object or codeword for verification, and no logbook, generally, does not qualify as a traditional cache.

 

The key sentences’ here is “”” they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches “”” and “”” The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache ”””

 

If it is any other way it would be a puzzle or a multistage / offset cache. Trust me when I say that we understand your pain but the guidelines are clear.

 

This issues has been discussed in our reviewers forum several times for a better understanding

 

The three caches Super_Nate linked to are about year and a half old about the time the guidelines changed to include : “”GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions””

 

They used to be listed like those linked to before the change

 

Max Cacher

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer // Moderator

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Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread....After seeing everyone lay out the different elements of what was confusing me, it makes perfect since! I know how I will lay it out now....and the coords for the box will be the provided coords in the listing.

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Wow, I've never seen Keystone get it wrong. The guidelines did change.

 

I'm curious though, why in the world would the definition change to the present one? It doesn't make a lick of sense. Oh, wait, letterboxer.com.

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A LB hybrid can be directly referenced by coordinates.

 

I know it can be. What they're saying now is it must be.

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Wow, I've never seen Keystone get it wrong. The guidelines did change.

 

I'm curious though, why in the world would the definition change to the present one? It doesn't make a lick of sense. Oh, wait, letterboxer.com.

 

To be honest, I don't know why the guidelines changed either.....I like it the way it was, and I liked the offset idea for the letterboxes that I linked to.

 

Max Cacher has it right though......the guideline is the guideline and it is up to us to follow it!

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This issues has been discussed in our reviewers forum several times for a better understanding

 

Yet, judging from the posts here and in another thread, you guys still haven't come to consensus.

 

Max Cacher says the posted coordinates has to be the coordinates of the box. Keystone says it does not.

 

Who is right?

 

BTW, I used the Way Back Machine and as far back as I could find the guidelines, which is late '03, the guidelines pertinent to this discussion has not changed.

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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

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If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

I think what we are trying to say is that your supposed to know ahead of time by hunting for a hybrid that you have clues to follow to get to the box with the stamp. Same way that you know ahead of time that you have more than one stop/container to find if you are hunting for a multi.

 

I think that for letterboxes, the clues that you follow to get to the big cache should be in the cache listing. If you have to follow clues to get you to other containers before the actual Letterbox then it should indeed be a multicache.

Edited by Super_Nate
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A LB hybrid can be directly referenced by coordinates.

 

I know it can be. What they're saying now is it must be.

 

It should be good enough to provide a starting point in coordinates. It should not even matter if that starting point is easy to find without the GPS. Only that it can be found with the GPS.

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A LB hybrid can be directly referenced by coordinates.

 

I know it can be. What they're saying now is it must be.

 

It should be good enough to provide a starting point in coordinates. It should not even matter if that starting point is easy to find without the GPS. Only that it can be found with the GPS.

 

I agree 100%!

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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

 

A multi and a letterbox can be roughly the same in how you get to the final box. Letterbox logs are traditinionally a stamp.

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As long as the box is the required 528 feet from another cache....does the starting point coords have to abide by that same guideline?

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Guidelines for a Letterbox hybird:

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook. They must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues....

 

The stampbook is a log. Simple as that. Since a cache can be referenced at the starting point with coordinates and then you figure out the final ones in the field or at your desk (multi, puzzle, etc) that starting point only need have coordinates. A parking lot works fine if the cache is solvable from that point.

 

A letterbox hybrid should substantially confirm to what a letterbox is. Rather than vice versa.

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I can understand the reviewers wanting to take a literal interpretation of "must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches” and “The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache” After dealing with having to interpret "Wow", they no longer want the responsiblity to think for themselves. If they can use narrow interprertation of the guidelines their job is easier.

 

To me, it was clear that that hybrid idea was that any type of cache that was listable on geocaching.com (puzzle, multi/offset, traditional) could be made into a letterbox hybrid by simply including a letterbox stamp in the cache. Many people would use letterbox clues to offset the cache from the posted coordinates for their hybrid to emphasize the link to letterboxing while still allowing the GPS to be used to get to the initial starting point. "Traditional" was used in the guidelines to ensure that the hybrid had a log book as a cache would. (Letterboxes have the equivalent of a log book where the finder leaves an impression of their stamp. I have put my geocaching sticker or even signed my name in the stamp book in letterboxes that I have found while geocaching. This probably causes more consternation for letterbox purist than defining what makes a hybrid on geocaching.com).

 

There probably should never have been a letterbox hybrid cache type. Instead a attribute of "Cache has a letterbox stamp and may be listed on a letterboxing site" would have worked better. But attributes hadn't been invented at the time cachers asked for the capability of indicating that a cache was also being used as a letterbox.

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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

 

A multi and a letterbox can be roughly the same in how you get to the final box. Letterbox logs are traditinionally a stamp.

A letterbox hybrid is both a cache AND a letterbox, and should contain both a logbook for cachers AND a stamp for letterboxers.

 

Cachers should be able to get to the container by going to the posted coordinates (per the guidelines) and letterboxers find the container by following clues from some starting point other than the container.

 

I don't mind going to multiple locations to find a cache container, those are sometimes the best caches, but they should be listed as such so cachers know what to expect. If you want to take people to more than one location why not list the cache under that type?

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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

 

A multi and a letterbox can be roughly the same in how you get to the final box. Letterbox logs are traditinionally a stamp.

A letterbox hybrid is both a cache AND a letterbox, and should contain both a logbook for cachers AND a stamp for letterboxers.

 

Cachers should be able to get to the container by going to the posted coordinates (per the guidelines) and letterboxers find the container by following clues from some starting point other than the container.

 

I don't mind going to multiple locations to find a cache container, those are sometimes the best caches, but they should be listed as such so cachers know what to expect. If you want to take people to more than one location why not list the cache under that type?

 

But suppose I want to put a letterbox stamp in a puzzle or a multicache and list the container on a letterboxing site with traditional letterboxing clues. A strict interpretation of "traditional" in the guidelines means I can't list this as a letterbox hybrid. So what is the point of having a letterbox hybrid type?

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But suppose I want to put a letterbox stamp in a puzzle or a multicache and list the container on a letterboxing site with traditional letterboxing clues. A strict interpretation of "traditional" in the guidelines means I can't list this as a letterbox hybrid. So what is the point of having a letterbox hybrid type?

 

Good point Toz! That is my question too.

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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

 

A multi and a letterbox can be roughly the same in how you get to the final box. Letterbox logs are traditinionally a stamp.

A letterbox hybrid is both a cache AND a letterbox, and should contain both a logbook for cachers AND a stamp for letterboxers.

 

Cachers should be able to get to the container by going to the posted coordinates (per the guidelines) and letterboxers find the container by following clues from some starting point other than the container.

 

I don't mind going to multiple locations to find a cache container, those are sometimes the best caches, but they should be listed as such so cachers know what to expect. If you want to take people to more than one location why not list the cache under that type?

 

But suppose I want to put a letterbox stamp in a puzzle or a multicache and list the container on a letterboxing site with traditional letterboxing clues. A strict interpretation of "traditional" in the guidelines means I can't list this as a letterbox hybrid. So what is the point of having a letterbox hybrid type?

I agree. It seems to me like the only reason for having this type to begin with was because letterboxers wanted to get credit for their finds on this web site, and talked the site into creating a new cache type for them.

 

I also agree with you that an attribute would serve much better if they had been available at the time of the Letterbox Hybrid cache type creation.

 

However, the quidelines for cache type are what they are, and if you want to list a cache as a Letterbox Hybrid you should probably have the container at the listed coords. Otherwise you've got a Multicache or Puzzle type.

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How about this scenario?

 

Letterbox Hybrid where the posted coords are the Parking lot/trail head.

 

The description is in the form of traditional Letterboxing clues, and a note at the bottom of the description saying that if you want the coords to go directly to the cache decode the hint. (or put as as an additional waypoint?) Spell out final coords in the hint as words, i.e. North Fourtyone degrees thirtyfive point nine eight nine, West Seventynine degrees twentyone point five zero three?

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I can understand the reviewers wanting to take a literal interpretation of "must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches” and “The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache” After dealing with having to interpret "Wow", they no longer want the responsiblity to think for themselves. If they can use narrow interprertation of the guidelines their job is easier.

 

I don't think their job would be any harder if the letterbox was layed out with the provided coords being the starting point for the clues that lead to the cache, and the actual cache container coords being in the additional waypoints hidden from view except by the reviewer and owner. That way all the reviewer had to do was include the waypoint as a cache with their vast database of caches in their reviewing area, and if another cache were to pop up that was to close to the letterbox container it could be easily detected by the reviewer via the additional waypoint that was added.

 

Their job wouldn't be any easier or any harder.....a lot of reviewers require that stages of a multi be included in the additional waypoints for this exact reason, and I think that could be the same story for letterboxes.

 

Geocaching is supposed to be a fun sport where people can get out of the house and find some really neat caches. Those letterboxes that I linked to as examples earlier in this thread were and still are fantastic caches that were a lot of fun to go find. If I were to list a letterbox that had the provided coords for a starting point, and clues that led up to the container...then it is just like anyother cache that is out there. People have the choice to hunt a cache. If they don't like the looks of my letterbox listing, then they don't have to go find it. For those that do go find it, they are going to have a lot of fun doing it (hence the reason for Geocaching's exsistance) and they will remember the cache for a long time to come as being a positive quality cache in the area. I think having the guideline state that the provided coords for letterboxes should be for the container loses a lot of the WOW factor in hunting the cache type. I have been to a letterbox where the coords were a giveaway and I didn't enjoy it as much.

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I can understand the reviewers wanting to take a literal interpretation of "must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches” and “The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache” After dealing with having to interpret "Wow", they no longer want the responsiblity to think for themselves. If they can use narrow interprertation of the guidelines their job is easier.

 

I don't think their job would be any harder if the letterbox was layed out with the provided coords being the starting point for the clues that lead to the cache, and the actual cache container coords being in the additional waypoints hidden from view except by the reviewer and owner. That way all the reviewer had to do was include the waypoint as a cache with their vast database of caches in their reviewing area, and if another cache were to pop up that was to close to the letterbox container it could be easily detected by the reviewer via the additional waypoint that was added.

Of course my comment had nothing to do with wheter it would be harder for them to approve other caches as letterbox hybrids. The judgement issue they face right now is the "the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions." And this guideline applies to all physical caches not just letterbox hybrids. My guess is the limitation to physical cache is mean to allow events where the page had the address of the pizza parlor, and was really meant to apply to virtuals - before they were grandfathered - and to Earthcaches as well as to physical caches. But the literalist reviewers might take it to mean that a virtual or earthcache doesn't have to allow the option of using GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt. To bad we can't test this hypothesis as the reviewers no longer approve virtuals or earthcaches.

 

My appeal is for the reviewers to use some common sense in applying the guidelines and to interpret them liberally. There may be some areas where a strict interpretation by the volunteers makes sense and Groundspeak should review the execeptions. Commercial caches are a good example.

Edited by tozainamboku
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I'm glad the guidelines have been cleared up. If I went to a hybrid cache, expecting to find a container, but instead found a series of clues that I was supposed to follow, I'd wonder why this wasn't listed as a Multi, or maybe even a puzzle/mystery.

 

Under the current definitions, those are the two types of caches where the container with the logbook is NOT at the listed coordinates.

 

A multi and a letterbox can be roughly the same in how you get to the final box. Letterbox logs are traditinionally a stamp.

A letterbox hybrid is both a cache AND a letterbox, and should contain both a logbook for cachers AND a stamp for letterboxers.

 

Cachers should be able to get to the container by going to the posted coordinates (per the guidelines) and letterboxers find the container by following clues from some starting point other than the container.

 

I don't mind going to multiple locations to find a cache container, those are sometimes the best caches, but they should be listed as such so cachers know what to expect. If you want to take people to more than one location why not list the cache under that type?

 

A hybrid is a means to list Letterboxes on this site. The spirit of the cache should be the same for letterbox finders and for geocachers. That means both people follow more or less the same route to the cache and have the same overall experience. Putting two log books in the cache is silly. Geocachers will sign the stamp book and it would not suprise me if letterbox types stamp the log. One for both works for me.

 

Cachers should not be able to short circuit the spirit and intent of the letterbox just because they are holding a GPS. Almost all advice for finding a cache includes "put the GPS down and look".

Edited by Renegade Knight
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The spirit of the cache should be the same for letterbox finders and for geocachers.

Says who? From just reading the guidelines it seems to me that the experience the cacher has will be to go straight to the box and sign the log, just like a traditional cache would be. The reason it's a hybrid is that letterboxers find the box, and the stamp, by doing it their way.

 

Putting two log books in the cache is silly.
I agree. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. For some reason I thought you meant that a stamp is the only thing needed, and not a logbook. I think I understand now.

 

Cachers should not be able to short circuit the spirit and intent of the letterbox just because they are holding a GPS.
Why not? If they're supposed to have the exact same experience, why don't they just go letterboxing instead?
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Night caches are allowed and usually the only use of the GPS is for the parking coordinates. Whats the difference?

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Night caches are allowed and usually the only use of the GPS is for the parking coordinates. Whats the difference?

Night caches aren't listed by a cache type that specifies the container is at the posted coordinates, they're usually listed as the mystery type or multi.
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Night caches are allowed and usually the only use of the GPS is for the parking coordinates. Whats the difference?

Night caches aren't listed by a cache type that specifies the container is at the posted coordinates, they're usually listed as the mystery type or multi.

Letterboxes are not at the posted coordinates. That IS the cache type. If this site is requiring that letterboxes be at the posted coordintes they really should drop the hybrid as a cache type. It leads to false expectations as to what a letterbox is, so that people like you get confused. The letterboxing style was created long before geocaching muddied the waters with a hybrid.

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...The spirit of the cache should be the same for letterbox finders and for geocachers.

Says who?...If they're supposed to have the exact same experience, why don't they just go letterboxing instead?

 

Says who? The community at large every time they say "you should not cheat". The same peole who say 'you should solve the puzzle" rather than just be given the cooridnates by the first (and only) cacher to solve the puzzle etc.

 

Why not go to letterboxing? Ha! Every letterboxing site I've come across (and I haven't seen them all) is worse than the worst of the worst alternate geocaching sites. I'm not even sure you can log online, cross off your finds etc. There is a letterbox in the EXACT spot described by a geocache hint. The letterbox owner I never could find to email the owner and let them know that their box and a cache are within 10' of each other.

 

The hybrid cache (they should just drop the hybrid part and let them be letterboxes and end all the confusion) at least lets you contact the owner, log your visit, gives you a map and a bunch of nice features.

 

Edit: The typo's in this post are a natural part of the post and should not detrct from it's rustic nature.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Night caches are allowed and usually the only use of the GPS is for the parking coordinates. Whats the difference?

Night caches aren't listed by a cache type that specifies the container is at the posted coordinates, they're usually listed as the mystery type or multi.

Who says that the "Letterbox Hybrid" designation necessarily means that "the container is at the posted coordinates"? To me, it would tend to suggest just the opposite - that the seeker MAY have to follow clues once they get to the coordinates, just as Keystone described above.

 

I agree that the reference to "traditional" caches in the hybrid guideline was simply intended to require that a hybrid include a logbook like all other non-hybrid geocaches, not that the coordinates necessarily point to the box. Why is that necessary? Isn't there room for hybrids of both types - those where the coordinates lead right to the box, and those that require following clues? And isn't the "Letterbox Hybrid" designation sufficient to warn the seeker that they'd better figure out which it is? Why the seemingly continuous need to further restrict creativity and flexibility? If people don't want to follow clues (or download something, as is being discussed in another thread), they can just skip the cache, just as I now find myself skipping the thousands of urban micros that now surround me.

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Why not go to letterboxing? Ha! Every letterboxing site I've come across (and I haven't seen them all) is worse than the worst of the worst alternate geocaching sites. I'm not even sure you can log online, cross off your finds etc. There is a letterbox in the EXACT spot described by a geocache hint. The letterbox owner I never could find to email the owner and let them know that their box and a cache are within 10' of each other.

I had that impression when I first looked at them, and still have it about most. However, Atlas Quest has really come along and, for a one-man project, it's pretty impressive. It does let you log online (though limited, in the letterboxing tradition, to "found" or "attempted"). It does automatically remove found boxes from your searches. There is a clear mechanism for contacting the owner of each box. Of course, you probably need to create an account to do all of these things.

 

Yes, this is an aside but I think the corrections are worth making since as an active participant in both activities I think folks involved with each should have a better understanding of the other - and a lot of the assumptions and stated "facts" about the "others", both in our forums and theirs, are flat wrong.

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Letterboxing is a very OLD hobby. I have a letterbox I placed right in front of my house a long time ago. Been there for years.

 

It's only been visited by one person, but that same guy comes by just about every weekday (he apparently doesn't like to cache or letterbox on weekends ... or holidays). He never stamps the log (or logs online), yet he almost never TNLN's. I guess the reason my letterbox doesn't get traffic from anyone else is because it's such a lame drive-by. There are thousands just like it in this town, everywhere you look.

 

I've even heard that people used to use similar contraptions to communicate, shop and pay bills way back in the days before email and the Internet.

 

Personally I think the spread, or 'spew,' of all these thousands and thousands of lame letterboxes just like mine is actually bad for the hobby, and will eventually ruin Letterboxing.

Edited by KBI
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Letterboxing is a very OLD hobby. I have a letterbox I placed right in front of my house a long time ago. Been there for years.

 

It's only been visited by one person, but that same guy comes by just about every weekday (he apparently doesn't like to cache or letterbox on weekends ... or holidays). He never stamps the log (or logs online), yet he almost never TNLN's. I guess the reason my letterbox doesn't get traffic from anyone else is because it's such a lame drive-by. There are thousands just like it in this town, everywhere you look.

 

I've even heard that people used to use similar contraptions to communicate, shop and pay bills way back in the days before email and the Internet.

 

Personally I think the spread, or 'spew,' of all these thousands and thousands of lame letterboxes just like mine is actually bad for the hobby, and will eventually ruin Letterboxing.

Even worse are the "urban megas". Huge, brightly-colored and out in the open. I always make sure I hide them better than I find them.

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Personally I think the spread, or 'spew,' of all these thousands and thousands of lame letterboxes just like mine is actually bad for the hobby, and will eventually ruin Letterboxing.

 

I don't know when letterboxes were added as a cache type, but I know that they were around when I first started caching in April 2004! I have personally been to 5 letterboxes, and I have viewed the listings for many others by looking at past logs that others have written about the Letterboxes that they have visited.

 

Even for the 3+ years that Letterboxing has been on GC, I have seen very few "lame" letterboxes. I think they are spread around enough and I don't see mega amounts of them being published every day.

 

The topic here is not the future of letterboxes, I am just wanting a solid verdict of the Letterbox guideline. We have heard from the Geo-community....I want to try to hear from the higher-ups!

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Night caches are allowed and usually the only use of the GPS is for the parking coordinates. Whats the difference?

Night caches aren't listed by a cache type that specifies the container is at the posted coordinates, they're usually listed as the mystery type or multi.

Letterboxes are not at the posted coordinates. That IS the cache type.

Nope, sorry. There is NO cache type of Letterbox. There are letterboxes, but they're not geocaches, and they're not listed on GC.com (for now). There is, however, a Letterbox Hybrid type. And per the guidelines they're supposed to be referenced by the coordinates, not by a string of clues.

 

If this site is requiring that letterboxes be at the posted coordintes they really should drop the hybrid as a cache type.
This site isn't requiring anything from letterboxes, only from Letterbox Hybrids, the type that was created to be able to list letterboxes as geocaches too.

 

The "hybrid" part is very important. It says that it's a mix of letterbox and geocache. For letterboxers that are finding the container using letterbox methods, they can follow clues from wherever they're listed. For geocachers finding the same box, they go to the coordinates listed on the web site. They're not supposed to be required to follow the same clues, otherwise they'd just be letterboxing.

 

It leads to false expectations as to what a letterbox is, so that people like you get confused.
Or, like the people that think letterboxing is a type of geocache, and don't understand why only some of them are listed on this web site.

 

I'm not the crazy one around here, everyone else here is crazy, but I'm completely sane I tell you!

 

The letterboxing style was created long before geocaching muddied the waters with a hybrid.
Letterboxing has been around for a godzillion years. Long before geocaching. The hybrid type was created as a new type of geocache, not a new type of letterbox.
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I want to try to hear from the higher-ups!

No problem there. I'd like to hear a judgement too. I'm probably totally wrong with everything I've said in this thread (it wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong), and I'm only giving my opinion.

 

It sure is fun acting like you know what you're talking about, isn't it? :laughing:

 

If they say that letterbox hybrids can be at the end of a long string of clues that start from coordinates on one end of a trail, then that's what it is. No problem. But the stuff I've read sounds different to me.

 

Perhaps this will, at the very least, result in more carefully worded cache type descriptions. At the very most it will result in world peace and the end to all hunger.

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I want to try to hear from the higher-ups!

It sure is fun acting like you know what you're talking about, isn't it? :laughing:

 

To be perfectally honest, I don't really know what that is supposed to mean! I am not a know-it-all....merely giving advice to people who are getting started or asking questions that I know the answers to because I once asked the question before. Above all, I am learning from the advice that has been given to me in the past and present.

 

No problem there. I'd like to hear a judgement too. I'm probably totally wrong with everything I've said in this thread (it wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong), and I'm only giving my opinion.

 

Thanks for your opinion....it is no better or worse then all the other opinions sofar in this thread, because this thread has been mixed in opinions from the moment I started it. So far, it is looking like nobody is right or wrong in their opinions because the issue is still a little confusing.

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I want to try to hear from the higher-ups!

It sure is fun acting like you know what you're talking about, isn't it? :D

 

To be perfectally honest, I don't really know what that is supposed to mean!

It wasn't directed at you dude. I was talking about myself. :laughing:
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It wasn't directed at you dude. I was talking about myself. :D

 

All right...no problem!

 

So, I need to know what people think about the Letterbox guideline!

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It wasn't directed at you dude. I was talking about myself. :D

 

All right...no problem!

 

So, I need to know what people think about the Letterbox guideline!

 

Well, if mushtang and I a can't agree on what a letterbox hybrid is...I'd say they are fairly unclear.

 

My opinion is that the hybrid should match as closely as possible a letterbox. The coordinates should take you to where the letterbox owner would have you start. How you find the starting point could be GPS (since this site wants coordinates to be used) or based on the description.

 

From there the clues should lead you to the letterbox. Then as a hybid you can stamp the logbook or sign it.

 

Pretty simple to me.

 

The location of the box itself should probably need to conform to the other guidelines for caches. Unless it's was first listed on a letterboxing site. Then I'd tend to think of it as 'grandfathered' even if it was approved on a letterboxing site yesterday.

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My opinion is that the hybrid should match as closely as possible a letterbox. The coordinates should take you to where the letterbox owner would have you start. How you find the starting point could be GPS (since this site wants coordinates to be used) or based on the description.

But my earlier point is, if the site wanted to do that it would list Letterboxes instead of Letterbox Hybrids. What you're describing is letterboxing, and if someone wanted to go letterboxing why would they do it on a cache site?

 

My opinion is that the Hybrids allow cachers to find the containers just like they would any other regular cache, except these containers also happen to be used for letterboxing by a different group of people.

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My opinion is that the hybrid should match as closely as possible a letterbox. The coordinates should take you to where the letterbox owner would have you start. How you find the starting point could be GPS (since this site wants coordinates to be used) or based on the description.

But my earlier point is, if the site wanted to do that it would list Letterboxes instead of Letterbox Hybrids. What you're describing is letterboxing, and if someone wanted to go letterboxing why would they do it on a cache site?

What we usually see is Mushtang and his brother KBI arguing that if something is not against the guidelines it should be allowed. Here he is arguing that way the guidelines are written letterbox hybrids must conform to the requirements for a traditional cache. In either case trying to interpret the guidelines literally as if they came from Jeremy carved on stone tablets may be where we get into problems. I suspect that the reviewers get to see the rationale and intent of the guidelines. We, however, are kept in the dark by the priests and are left with either having to accept the fundamentalist interpretation or run the risk of being heretics.

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