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tomslusher

Mngca-you Won't Believe This

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Hey, I hate to interrupt the *very* mature argument that you're all having, but do any of you remember that the OP lives/caches in Minnesota?

 

I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

 

(As a Mod, you're an exception, Bret!)

 

Peace,

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Hey, I hate to interrupt the *very* mature argument that you're all having, but do any of you remember that the OP lives/caches in Minnesota?

 

I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

 

(As a Mod, you're an exception, Bret!)

 

Peace,

Peace? You make inflamatory statements, then say "Peace" as if that makes it all good? The OP addressed this thread to "anybody reading these forums" or words to that effect. If Bret says only Minnesota cachers can respond to this thread, we'll "bow out". Can we have a ruling.? Back me up on this GB, amybe we can be on the same side.I'm not the one that's going off topic here.

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I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

You might consider thinking agian. Athough the immediate situation being discussed is taking place in MN, the larger issue at hand is regarding how clubs conduct their business and who they (or who they do not) represent. This topic is worthy of discussion regarless of where we live or cache.

 

Hey Bret: did I just take this off topic or does it need to be moved to the GC discussions?

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I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

 

I think the whole point of this, to go along with what Phantom Dog said, is to discuss organizational business ethics. Also, did it ever occur to you that maybe he wanted someone elses opinion? The mere fact that this is a minnesota organizational issue tells me that most cachers that would respond in Minnesota would be biased one way or the other. I think he had a good idea by posting on the PUBLIC (read: Maintained for or used by the people or community) forums. It gives him the chance to get outsiders opinions on his issue. One more thing - if you consider "saving face" avoiding voicing my particular opinion and/or points, then I must have gotten the whole idea of a forum confused...which I don't think is the case. :rolleyes:

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I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

 

I think the whole point of this, to go along with what Phantom Dog said, is to discuss organizational business ethics. Also, did it ever occur to you that maybe he wanted someone elses opinion? The mere fact that this is a minnesota organizational issue tells me that most cachers that would respond in Minnesota would be biased one way or the other. I think he had a good idea by posting on the PUBLIC (read: Maintained for or used by the people or community) forums. It gives him the chance to get outsiders opinions on his issue. One more thing - if you consider "saving face" avoiding voicing my particular opinion and/or points, then I must have gotten the whole idea of a forum confused...which I don't think is the case. :rolleyes:

Yeah, what she said!

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I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

You might consider thinking agian. Athough the immediate situation being discussed is taking place in MN, the larger issue at hand is regarding how clubs conduct their business and who they (or who they do not) represent. This topic is worthy of discussion regarless of where we live or cache.

 

Hey Bret: did I just take this off topic or does it need to be moved to the GC discussions?

I haven't been keeping tabs on this too well, so maybe I missed it, but why isn't 'how clubs conduct their business' its own topic? (probably also some more threads you could spin off too)

"state group did this" or "state group didn't do that", or whatever seems mostly like an issue for that group, its member(s), and maybe whoever enforces non-profit compliance for the state the group's registered in.

If you want opinions for how a group should do this or that, someone should go start another thread in a different forum, organized caching maybe??(mod?)

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Speaking of the OP, where is he? Did he " suspiciously dissappear" as he feared???

;)

I assume "the OP" is me (original poster???) And I was on a hiatus. Actually I was properly scolded and told to lay by my dish. And while I didn't agree with it at first, after further thought, I guess I agreed I shouldn't have made the Hitler reference (at least I think that is what the bannishment was for, the forum police wasn't totally clear).

 

And while I don't take back anything else in my posts or my recent displeasure in "our" local geocaching club, making a veiled comparison between them and Hitler was wrong. Adolph woudn't have liked it... just kidding. Saddam maybe... just kidding again (sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

So while I am still upset at the refusal for MnGCA to share information with it's members, I will try to respect this moderator's authority and keep comments like that to myself.

 

Again, sorry. I'll try to be a good boy.

 

tomslusher

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I think that if you don't live or cache "up north", now would be a good time to save face and bow out.

You might consider thinking agian. Athough the immediate situation being discussed is taking place in MN, the larger issue at hand is regarding how clubs conduct their business and who they (or who they do not) represent. This topic is worthy of discussion regarless of where we live or cache.

 

Hey Bret: did I just take this off topic or does it need to be moved to the GC discussions?

I agree with this guy. I origianally posted this here partially as a Minnesota issue and to let locals know to keep this in mind when dealing with our "leadership" but also I wanted to find out if it was just me or do others see this as a major trust issue with them, or any club for that matter. This is not something I would expect or accept from any club and I wanted to see if others agreeed or if they were OK with this type of secrecy and taking down to.

 

I feel I did get my answer of that while a few are willing to accept being treated this way, most are not and see it as I do.

 

I appriciate the discussion and the thoughtful insight. I will continue my qwest to find out the information that I feel is owed to me as a member, even though I have been told that I am owed nothing as I am not as active in the club as others.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

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I assume "the OP" is me (original poster???) And I was on a hiatus.  Actually I was properly scolded and told to lay by my dish.  And while I didn't agree with it at first, after further thought, I guess I agreed I shouldn't have made the Hitler reference (at least I think that is what the bannishment was for, the forum police wasn't totally clear).

Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here. Just my opinion here: the fact that you could compare a board member for something as minor as geocaching with the instigator of the worst atrocities known to mankind shows me you lack a lot of perspective on the world around you. Take the three days to re-center yourself and consider how many people you need to apologize to for that comment.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

 

And I agree as well, if we're dealing with topics of club politics there are other forums for that. Again, I appreciate knowing that there is discussion going on with the Minnesota DNR. Let's hope that everyone involved has the best interest of the game in mind.

 

I feel I did get my answer of that while a few are willing to accept being treated this way, most are not and see it as I do.

 

It might be time to close the topic then.

 

Bret

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Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

I think you could have been more clear (or clear enough) by not using the word "like". That means (in this context) "for example". If you hadn't used poor grammer and just said, "referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here", I would have been certain that is what the violation was.

 

Ask your High School English teacher. No need to get snippy with me as you did. Maybe you might want to apologize.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

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And I agree as well, if we're dealing with topics of club politics there are other forums for that

 

Could you please direct me to where that topic might be? Thanks!

Yes - I am also wondering where else, other than the

Geocaching Groups by Region / State -> Midwest forum this topic should be?

 

CYBret Just my opinion here: . . . . .
It might be time to close the topic then.

 

Just my opinion, if I may: This thread has generated some good input on the topic at hand. Aside from the comments that brought on the temp ban, and your replies to that poster, I think this one is going pretty well - aside from personal opinions.

He broke the forum guidelines. Sending him to cool for that seems justified.

But tossing in your opnion on top of it puts a personal twist to it- one that isnt needed in order to moderate a forum. Rules are rules, but opinions are - well you know.

That is Not a personal attack - just another perspective.

 

When ever a topic doesnt go the way a few people like it (on the local forums) it usually gets moved, or closed by the moderator (sometimes at the personal request of another Member/user, based on thier Opinion of it being "unproductive" )

Certain peoples opinion's are valued, while others are not.

 

Please allow this topic to continue, as it Does seem to be providing some good input from a national group of like minded people. Cachers. This topic, while sensitive to many people - on both sides of the issue - is providing a good place for people from across the nation to share thier experiences with thier local organizations-

 

Just my Opinion... ..

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Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

I think you could have been more clear (or clear enough) by not using the word "like". That means (in this context) "for example". If you hadn't used poor grammer and just said, "referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here", I would have been certain that is what the violation was.

 

Ask your High School English teacher. No need to get snippy with me as you did. Maybe you might want to apologize.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

Bret has nothing to aplogize for. Your grammar lesson makes no sense, whatsoever. What he meant, and how he said it is very clear.

 

This is an interesting thread. Posters are told to shut up, to go away and not post, to post in other threads instead of this one, and who knows what else. I think there must be something seething under the surface that the rest of us are not privy to...

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But tossing in your opnion on top of it puts a personal twist to it- one that isnt needed in order to moderate a forum. Rules are rules, but opinions are - well you know.

That is Not a personal attack - just another perspective.

 

I would think that moderators have to walk a rather narrow line when they are participating in a forum discussion with their own personal opinions, and then feel the neccessity to take moderator action. They need to let others know when they have doffed their moderator hat and show their badge so there is no mistake as to what is personal opinion and what is moderator talk... especially when many may not recognize them as a moderator. Bret makes it clear in his email to Tom when this change takes place, and he re-holsters his sidearm. By the way, Not to get back near the topic or anything, in case anyone's interested, we still think that his board should treat Tom with a little more tolerance, even if he just might be a teeny weeny tad hard to get along with... :lol:

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But tossing in your opnion on top of it puts a personal twist to it- one that isnt needed in order to moderate a forum. Rules are rules, but opinions are - well you know.

That is Not a personal attack - just another perspective.

 

 

I would think that moderators have to walk a rather narrow line when they are participating in a forum discussion with their own personal opinions, and then feel the neccessity to take moderator action. They need to let others know when they have doffed their moderator hat and show their badge so there is no mistake as to what is personal opinion and what is moderator talk... especially when many may not recognize them as a moderator. Bret makes it clear in his email to Tom when this change takes place, and he re-holsters his sidearm. By the way, Not to get back near the topic or anything, in case anyone's interested, we still think that his board should treat Tom with a little more tolerance, even if he just might be a teeny weeny tad hard to get along with... 

 

Yeah! What he said!

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Not to get back near the topic or anything, in case anyone's interested, we still think that his board should treat Tom with a little more tolerance, even if he just might be a teeny weeny tad hard to get along with.

 

Sorry SixDogT, I Agree and your right - I meant to include that part, so as to stay on topic. ) I apologize

 

But. . . Keeping your personal opinions seperate from your duties is key when performing most any "duty" (especially if it is an elected position, to represent others, as in the OP's case)

If Police officers didnt use absolute discretion, we could have serious issues, right?

 

This isnt nearly the case, but I was just making a point.

 

Cachers in all states, MN and all over the nation seem to be some-what similar in thier experiences. Tom's plight is not lost on many. It also seems that Tom's problems arent so unique. I just look forward to hearing more, informative conversation on this topic.

I respect everyone's opinion, and have been told to Shut Up enough times where Id never be in the place to say that. Discussion is good, even if it get muddy at times.

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Not to get back near the topic or anything, in case anyone's interested, we still think that his board should treat Tom with a little more tolerance, even if he just might be a teeny weeny tad hard to  get along with... :lol:

If I get treated with repsect I do likewise. I get a bit "hard to get along with" when others start going after me. My comment to the moderator was a bit tongue in cheek, I guess I should have put a smiley face next to it (although I hate those stupid things, but that is just my opinion). And although I don't think the moderator was going after me, just trying to take a small shot at me after he felt I did the same to him. I had no such intention, and I guess he may not of either. I'm willing to forgive and forget, it's no big deal.

 

tomslusher

 

although I still stand by my grammer lesson

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I know you weren't quoting me, but I should say that the majority of us do agree with you. You have posted (and quoted) several things that have been totally unprofessional (?? not the right word, but you know what I mean) against you. Please don't be offended.

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I know you weren't quoting me, but I should say that the majority of us do agree with you.  You have posted (and quoted) several things that have been totally unprofessional (?? not the right word, but you know what I mean) against you.  Please don't be offended.

It's pretty tough to offend me. I spend my days in prison (and they let me out every day too, at least for now)

 

tomslusher

 

;):o:huh::P:D:D:lol::drama:B):):D:(:o:lol::drama::P:lol::drama:

 

i guess that wasn't that bad. How can I hate those smileyface things????

Edited by tomslusher

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Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

I think you could have been more clear (or clear enough) by not using the word "like". That means (in this context) "for example". If you hadn't used poor grammer and just said, "referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here", I would have been certain that is what the violation was.

 

Ask your High School English teacher. No need to get snippy with me as you did. Maybe you might want to apologize.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

You forget the respect thing already? :lol:

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Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

I think you could have been more clear (or clear enough) by not using the word "like". That means (in this context) "for example". If you hadn't used poor grammer and just said, "referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here", I would have been certain that is what the violation was.

 

Ask your High School English teacher. No need to get snippy with me as you did. Maybe you might want to apologize.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

You forget the respect thing already? :lol:

Did you read my whole post, or just what you wanted to take from it?

 

tomslusher

 

anyway, isn't this thread about.... ahhh ,forget it

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Looking at the email I sent you:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames, like referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here.

 

I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been.

I think you could have been more clear (or clear enough) by not using the word "like". That means (in this context) "for example". If you hadn't used poor grammer and just said, "referring to someone as "Hitler" will not be tolerated here", I would have been certain that is what the violation was.

 

Ask your High School English teacher. No need to get snippy with me as you did. Maybe you might want to apologize.

 

thanks,

 

tomslusher

You forget the respect thing already? :lol:

Did you read my whole post, or just what you wanted to take from it?

 

tomslusher

 

anyway, isn't this thread about.... ahhh ,forget it

The way I see it........ ahhh you know what. My mother told me there will always be people in this world who won't get it. Sir, I think if you can not understand the difference in what Cybret did by sending you an email asking you to think about what you did, and you calling him out in the forums to apologize, then I am out of things to say to you. You are tippy toeing the line of the respect issue.( believe me, I have spent a lot of time on the read only side of the forums for pulling crap.) He is a mod. You have to do as he says and I think you knew all along what he meant in his email about why you got shelfed for three days. At a minimum it was the german bad guy reference or the donkey reference. Either way, it was pretty cut and dry that both break the guidelines. German guy for personal flameage and donkey reference for language.

Edited by 5¢

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anyway, isn't this thread about.... ahhh ,forget it

If this thread has degraded into being about you, instead of your ideas, and you don't like that, you have nobody to blame but yourself, Tom. So far most people agree with your position in this thread, but not with the abrasive way you represent it . Unfortunately for your position, people will tend to turn away from agreeing with that also, merely because you are associated with it...And, to get back on topic, this may be why your Board doesn't want you involved in meetings with the DNR. It's just quite possible that that is what this whole thing is all about.

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And I agree as well, if we're dealing with topics of club politics there are other forums for that

 

Could you please direct me to where that topic might be? Thanks!

In general or specifc to MnGCA?

 

MnGCA would be http://www.mngca.org/forum/index.php

 

In general would be at least general geocaching topics in these forums, or maybe it would be suitable for http://www.geommunity.net/?

In any case why is this topic in the midwest forum? are all the worst groups in this region or what?? :lol:

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The way I see it........ ahhh you know what.  My mother told me there will always be people in this world who won't get it.  Sir, I think if you can not understand the difference in what Cybret did by sending you an email asking you to think about what you did, and you calling him out in the forums to apologize, then I am out of things to say to you.  You are tippy toeing the line of the respect issue.( believe me, I have spent a lot of time on the read only side of the forums for pulling crap.)  He is a mod.  You have to do as he says and I think you knew all along what he meant in his email about why you got shelfed for three days.  At a minimum it was the german bad guy reference or the donkey reference.  Either way, it was pretty cut and dry that both break the guidelines.  German guy for personal flameage and donkey reference for language.

This is getting amazing, do you work for our local club's board? Or are you just some agitator? Did you read any of what I wrote?

I wrote this a ways back up

My comment to the moderator was a bit tongue in cheek, I guess I should have put a smiley face next to it (although I hate those stupid things, but that is just my opinion). And although I don't think the moderator was going after me, just trying to take a small shot at me after he felt I did the same to him. I had no such intention, and I guess he may not of either. I'm willing to forgive and forget, it's no big deal.

 

I also wrote this further up

I assume "the OP" is me (original poster???) And I was on a hiatus. Actually I was properly scolded and told to lay by my dish. And while I didn't agree with it at first, after further thought, I guess I agreed I shouldn't have made the Hitler reference (at least I think that is what the bannishment was for, the forum police wasn't totally clear).

 

And while I don't take back anything else in my posts or my recent displeasure in "our" local geocaching club, making a veiled comparison between them and Hitler was wrong. Adolph woudn't have liked it... just kidding. Saddam maybe... just kidding again (sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

So while I am still upset at the refusal for MnGCA to share information with it's members, I will try to respect this moderator's authority and keep comments like that to myself.

I guess I would have to agree with your mother. some people don't get it. If the moderator was "offended by what I said, I'm sure he is a big enough boy to let me know. why do you feel you need to jump in a defend him? I dropped it until ....I'd better not, I don't want to get the boot again.

 

I guess I don't know what else I can say? Can you help me with what you think I should say or what you might want me to say?

 

tomslusher

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anyway, isn't this thread about.... ahhh ,forget it

If this thread has degraded into being about you, instead of your ideas, and you don't like that, you have nobody to blame but yourself, Tom. So far most people agree with your position in this thread, but not with the abrasive way you represent it . Unfortunately for your position, people will tend to turn away from agreeing with that also, merely because you are associated with it...And, to get back on topic, this may be why your Board doesn't want you involved in meetings with the DNR. It's just quite possible that that is what this whole thing is all about.

Please read the most recent post I wrote, some of it may apply. As far as me wanting to be involved with the meetings with our local DNR, where did you get that from? I never wrote that nor did I read that. Please, try not inserting text and meaning in my post or my positions.

 

Where was my abrasiveness displayed that was not provoked? Where was I the instigator? I have tried several times have tried to drop this part of this thread only to have it dredged up (I feel unwarrented). Why must you live out this desire to drive me into a tizzy? As I said in the most previous post

I guess I don't know what else I can say? Can you help me with what you think I should say or what you might want me to say?

 

tomslusher

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And I agree as well, if we're dealing with topics of club politics there are other forums for that

 

Could you please direct me to where that topic might be? Thanks!

In general or specifc to MnGCA?

 

MnGCA would be http://www.mngca.org/forum/index.php

 

In general would be at least general geocaching topics in these forums, or maybe it would be suitable for http://www.geommunity.net/?

In any case why is this topic in the midwest forum? are all the worst groups in this region or what?? :lol:

Excellent resources and two very proper places for the topic of organizations to be discussed (both in general and specifically in Minnesota).

 

Thanks!

 

Bret

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The way I see it........ ahhh you know what.  My mother told me there will always be people in this world who won't get it.  Sir, I think if you can not understand the difference in what Cybret did by sending you an email asking you to think about what you did, and you calling him out in the forums to apologize, then I am out of things to say to you.  You are tippy toeing the line of the respect issue.( believe me, I have spent a lot of time on the read only side of the forums for pulling crap.)  He is a mod.  You have to do as he says and I think you knew all along what he meant in his email about why you got shelfed for three days.  At a minimum it was the german bad guy reference or the donkey reference.  Either way, it was pretty cut and dry that both break the guidelines.  German guy for personal flameage and donkey reference for language.

This is getting amazing, do you work for our local club's board? Or are you just some agitator? Did you read any of what I wrote?

I wrote this a ways back up

My comment to the moderator was a bit tongue in cheek, I guess I should have put a smiley face next to it (although I hate those stupid things, but that is just my opinion). And although I don't think the moderator was going after me, just trying to take a small shot at me after he felt I did the same to him. I had no such intention, and I guess he may not of either. I'm willing to forgive and forget, it's no big deal.

 

I also wrote this further up

I assume "the OP" is me (original poster???) And I was on a hiatus. Actually I was properly scolded and told to lay by my dish. And while I didn't agree with it at first, after further thought, I guess I agreed I shouldn't have made the Hitler reference (at least I think that is what the bannishment was for, the forum police wasn't totally clear).

 

And while I don't take back anything else in my posts or my recent displeasure in "our" local geocaching club, making a veiled comparison between them and Hitler was wrong. Adolph woudn't have liked it... just kidding. Saddam maybe... just kidding again (sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

So while I am still upset at the refusal for MnGCA to share information with it's members, I will try to respect this moderator's authority and keep comments like that to myself.

I guess I would have to agree with your mother. some people don't get it. If the moderator was "offended by what I said, I'm sure he is a big enough boy to let me know. why do you feel you need to jump in a defend him? I dropped it until ....I'd better not, I don't want to get the boot again.

 

I guess I don't know what else I can say? Can you help me with what you think I should say or what you might want me to say?

 

tomslusher

I hope everything works out for you Tom. Goodnight

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4. Looking to prepare for our future DNR discussions and planning, soon after taking office, I contacted Marlene at the Three Rivers Parks District with an offer to revise their current policy and make it more cacher and park district friendly. We have already provided them with a proposed policy very similar to that of our own Duluth policy and will be presenting it to them in mid-November.

 

5. We’ve been brainstorming ideas on how we should approach the DNR and what our proposed policy should be like. Obviously, it’s likely that our direction and ideas will change based upon the lessons learned from the final outcome of our Three Rivers talks.

 

This was posted on the MNGCA board 4 days before this whole thread started. It pretty much sums up exactly where we are at. There is no hidden ball here. There are no "secret meetings" that have taken place. Board members do stay in contact with each other as needed to discuss business that comes up, but our first meeting doesn't even occur until December. (we only meet 4 times a year)

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4. Looking to prepare for our future DNR discussions and planning, soon after taking office, I contacted Marlene at the Three Rivers Parks District with an offer to revise their current policy and make it more cacher and park district friendly. We have already provided them with a proposed policy very similar to that of our own Duluth policy and will be presenting it to them in mid-November.

 

5. We’ve been brainstorming ideas on how we should approach the DNR and what our proposed policy should be like. Obviously, it’s likely that our direction and ideas will change based upon the lessons learned from the final outcome of our Three Rivers talks.

 

This was posted on the MNGCA board 4 days before this whole thread started. It pretty much sums up exactly where we are at. There is no hidden ball here. There are no "secret meetings" that have taken place. Board members do stay in contact with each other as needed to discuss business that comes up, but our first meeting doesn't even occur until December. (we only meet 4 times a year)

Let's try to be honest. Following is the post that "started this all", and what continued it was when I asked what we hope to accomplish with our DNR talks and how we plan to reach those goals.

 

pearhead wrote in the MnGCA forums

I will tell you that, at this point, the board has developed a plan of action regarding approaching the DNR. We know the route we want to take and are currently in the middle of implementing such plan. It's a very complex process involving a number of factors that I'm not going to get into here. This isn't a stall tactic - we are working on getting a line of communication open that will provide us with (hopefully) a relationship on good terms with folks at the DNR. Getting into more details than this is likely to draw this into a long debate that will possibly ruin our chances of establishing such relationship.

 

I am not going to get into the details of what our plans are at this point as it will end up causing what I believe to be "too many cooks in the kitchen". I will tell you that we are currently in the process of opening a line of communication with the DNR.

 

I hope that this explaination of the current situation is adequate for those wanting to know where we are in the process.

 

We have already had numerous discussions on the forums about what we want to see in a DNR policy. At least two of the board members have expressed that we are willing/wanting to address the DNR policy in our tenure on the board. It isn't a forgotten issue.

 

If you feel that we need to provide documentation to show our every step in the process then I'm sorry. The board needs the ability to operate at a level that allows us to get things done without having everyone asking why we did it this way or why we did it that way. You, the membership, nominated and elected the board to represent you. Please let us do that now.

 

We are working to get things done, but it's not an instantaneous process. It will take time.

 

If you, as a MnGCA member, want to become more involved in this process or future processes, I encourage you to

 

A. VOTE in the elections next fall. Voter turnout this year was very low, and many of the most outspoken people here failed to cast a ballot. I'm not interested in getting into a long discussion here about WHY you didn't cast your ballot. My point is that if you want to have a say in the organization, voting is the first step.

 

B. RUN for office next fall. This is the only way you will be able to sit on the board and work with the fine details. Again: You the membership nominated and elected the board.

 

And a few quotes I picked out of this boardmember's posts concerning this

 

I'm simply not willing to get into the fine details of what I or the board is doing on it. I have given you general information. Again, I'm not going to get into the fine details as it's likely to muck up the works.

Maybe you missed the line where I said I'm not going to get into the fine details. No - wait - I guess you didn't miss it:
What I did say is that I'm not willing to discuss the DETAILS of our actions.

 

I think a reasonable person can see that we have not asked for anything out or the ordinary or too much. We even rephrased several times saying we didn't want a very detailed agenda, just a basic generalization. To that we got no answer.

 

Remember, I didn't bring this back up here, so don't flame me.

 

tomslusher

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4. Looking to prepare for our future DNR discussions and planning, soon after taking office, I contacted Marlene at the Three Rivers Parks District with an offer to revise their current policy and make it more cacher and park district friendly. We have already provided them with a proposed policy very similar to that of our own Duluth policy and will be presenting it to them in mid-November.

 

5. We’ve been brainstorming ideas on how we should approach the DNR and what our proposed policy should be like. Obviously, it’s likely that our direction and ideas will change based upon the lessons learned from the final outcome of our Three Rivers talks.

 

This was posted on the MNGCA board 4 days before this whole thread started. It pretty much sums up exactly where we are at. There is no hidden ball here. There are no "secret meetings" that have taken place. Board members do stay in contact with each other as needed to discuss business that comes up, but our first meeting doesn't even occur until December. (we only meet 4 times a year)

Let's try to be honest. Following is the post that "started this all", and what continued it was when I asked what we hope to accomplish with our DNR talks and how we plan to reach those goals.

 

pearhead wrote in the MnGCA forums

I will tell you that, at this point, the board has developed a plan of action regarding approaching the DNR. We know the route we want to take and are currently in the middle of implementing such plan. It's a very complex process involving a number of factors that I'm not going to get into here. This isn't a stall tactic - we are working on getting a line of communication open that will provide us with (hopefully) a relationship on good terms with folks at the DNR. Getting into more details than this is likely to draw this into a long debate that will possibly ruin our chances of establishing such relationship.

 

I am not going to get into the details of what our plans are at this point as it will end up causing what I believe to be "too many cooks in the kitchen". I will tell you that we are currently in the process of opening a line of communication with the DNR.

 

I hope that this explaination of the current situation is adequate for those wanting to know where we are in the process.

 

We have already had numerous discussions on the forums about what we want to see in a DNR policy. At least two of the board members have expressed that we are willing/wanting to address the DNR policy in our tenure on the board. It isn't a forgotten issue.

 

If you feel that we need to provide documentation to show our every step in the process then I'm sorry. The board needs the ability to operate at a level that allows us to get things done without having everyone asking why we did it this way or why we did it that way. You, the membership, nominated and elected the board to represent you. Please let us do that now.

 

We are working to get things done, but it's not an instantaneous process. It will take time.

 

If you, as a MnGCA member, want to become more involved in this process or future processes, I encourage you to

 

A. VOTE in the elections next fall. Voter turnout this year was very low, and many of the most outspoken people here failed to cast a ballot. I'm not interested in getting into a long discussion here about WHY you didn't cast your ballot. My point is that if you want to have a say in the organization, voting is the first step.

 

B. RUN for office next fall. This is the only way you will be able to sit on the board and work with the fine details. Again: You the membership nominated and elected the board.

 

And a few quotes I picked out of this boardmember's posts concerning this

 

I'm simply not willing to get into the fine details of what I or the board is doing on it. I have given you general information. Again, I'm not going to get into the fine details as it's likely to muck up the works.

Maybe you missed the line where I said I'm not going to get into the fine details. No - wait - I guess you didn't miss it:
What I did say is that I'm not willing to discuss the DETAILS of our actions.

 

I think a reasonable person can see that we have not asked for anything out or the ordinary or too much. We even rephrased several times saying we didn't want a very detailed agenda, just a basic generalization. To that we got no answer.

 

Remember, I didn't bring this back up here, so don't flame me.

 

tomslusher

I know me and you have gone a few rounds earlier in the thread, but all that aside, I can understand how the board could decide to keep everyone else out of it at this point and not have to listen to everyone else say...."Well I don't like that idea, I want to do it this way." Giving out the written policy or the draft form of it would likely cause the above to happen.

 

I don't know the context of what you pulled those other qoutes from but reading them seems to say to me that someone would not drop the fact after they were told they weren't getting anymore info. This shows me that if given the written policy the same arguements could and most likely would happen. To sum it up, I don't ask George W what he is doing daily to win the Iraq war, and like the news media has proven, everyone else sure thinks they have a good idea of what they think he should do, but nothing would be done if everyone went back and forth over what will be done.

 

I also agree with the fact that if you want to be in the loop you should run for the board next year. But right now, you have to sit tight.

 

By the way, grammer as you spelled it earlier in your english lesson, is spelled grammar :cool:

Edited by 5¢

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It is encouraging to see a group of volunteers spend many hours micromanaging and nitpicking within the forums of a state organization AND undertake the business of trying to get the state to open its parks to geocaching. There are many, MANY city and county parks that either look the other way or outright encourage geocaching, but if people have time to fight for the right to cache in a state park, God bless them. Yes, I know, the battle is to protect what we have as much as it is to open up state parks on a controlled basis. God bless you all again.

 

What I have found from reading the MNGCA forum is that a group of them (board members, primarily) have managed to alienate some while trying to do good on behalf of all. They're a lot like politicians, their voters will sing their praises, others will never be pleased.

 

What amazes me about it all is not that the organization and board have their fans and detractors, it's that these people have so much time on their hands that they can sit there and disect every sentence of every post made by an "opponent," and/or find time to guide the organization with their infinite wisdom. Of course all of this goes on while these "players" are geocaching regularly, right? Do any of these people have jobs? Did they have friends or hobbies prior to geocaching? I understand finding something you enjoy and making it a passion, but good God, there are several people in Minnesota that need to experience a little more in life, evidently.

 

I am sure you find this in every state organization, it can't be isolated to Minnesota and the Groundspeak forums. And I'm sure it's a passing fancy for some folks. I have been guilty of overindulging in online chats myself, although not volatile ones like I see at MNGCA. (I get easily sucked into discussions about "Lost.")

 

Despite all of this, I've seen enough evidence, and I'm not pointing a finger at MNGCA at the moment, of how "volunteers" because obsessive and controlling. Not being a psychologist, I can't cite the study, but if you have ever taken a psychology class you probably discussed the experiments where two groups were assigned roles, convicts and prison guards. Those who were assigned to be prison guards were so consumed by the power they held that the experiment had to be ended because of the way they were treating the convicts. Bottom line, when you give volunteers power and responsibility, some will abuse it, no matter how nice of a person he or she is.

 

I have seen shades of such behavior at MNGCA and at geocaching.com, as well as at other online venues. It is the way society works, right or wrong.

 

At the moment, it is festering in Minnesota. Good luck to all of you. I have a TV show to catch up on, thanks to DVR, a football team to watch on Sunday, (I am obviously not a Vikings or Packers fan,) a family to spend time with and a house to clean. Chances are I won't have time to participate again in your petty bickering.

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Chances are I won't have time to participate again in your petty bickering.

Thanks so much, dhor! You're right to leave the petty bickering to those best at it: We, the pathetic, friendless, homeless, jobless losers... :lol:

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It is encouraging to see a group of volunteers spend many hours micromanaging and nitpicking within the forums of a state organization AND undertake the business of trying to get the state to open its parks to geocaching. There are many, MANY city and county parks that either look the other way or outright encourage geocaching, but if people have time to fight for the right to cache in a state park, God bless them. Yes, I know, the battle is to protect what we have as much as it is to open up state parks on a controlled basis. God bless you all again.

 

What I have found from reading the MNGCA forum is that a group of them (board members, primarily) have managed to alienate some while trying to do good on behalf of all. They're a lot like politicians, their voters will sing their praises, others will never be pleased.

 

What amazes me about it all is not that the organization and board have their fans and detractors, it's that these people have so much time on their hands that they can sit there and disect every sentence of every post made by an "opponent," and/or find time to guide the organization with their infinite wisdom. Of course all of this goes on while these "players" are geocaching regularly, right? Do any of these people have jobs? Did they have friends or hobbies prior to geocaching? I understand finding something you enjoy and making it a passion, but good God, there are several people in Minnesota that need to experience a little more in life, evidently.

 

I am sure you find this in every state organization, it can't be isolated to Minnesota and the Groundspeak forums. And I'm sure it's a passing fancy for some folks. I have been guilty of overindulging in online chats myself, although not volatile ones like I see at MNGCA. (I get easily sucked into discussions about "Lost.")

 

Despite all of this, I've seen enough evidence, and I'm not pointing a finger at MNGCA at the moment, of how "volunteers" because obsessive and controlling. Not being a psychologist, I can't cite the study, but if you have ever taken a psychology class you probably discussed the experiments where two groups were assigned roles, convicts and prison guards. Those who were assigned to be prison guards were so consumed by the power they held that the experiment had to be ended because of the way they were treating the convicts. Bottom line, when you give volunteers power and responsibility, some will abuse it, no matter how nice of a person he or she is.

 

I have seen shades of such behavior at MNGCA and at geocaching.com, as well as at other online venues. It is the way society works, right or wrong.

 

At the moment, it is festering in Minnesota. Good luck to all of you. I have a TV show to catch up on, thanks to DVR, a football team to watch on Sunday, (I am obviously not a Vikings or Packers fan,) a family to spend time with and a house to clean. Chances are I won't have time to participate again in your petty bickering.

It is obvious that you are an active participant in the geocaching community with ONE FIND SINCE 2004! Thank you for putting all of us loosers in our places.

 

For the record I do happen to have a job. I patrol the northeastern border of Afghanistan searching for thugs who would love nothing more than to put a bullet in in the brain of every American they come across. I too have a family that I would love to spend time with, but I am here being called out on patrol at all hours of the day and night. At this moment the best I can do is to spend a little time online. It is not a particularly pleasant job, but a very rewarding one. I pray that the people of this this country will appreciate their newly found rights better than you do.

 

If the MNGA will not represent their membership then it is the State's duty to do so in an open manner. We are talking about geocaching, not matters of national security. There is no need for secrets.

 

I was under the impression that these forums were to be a forum in which to discuss such topics in a respectful manner. Your commentary was anything but respectful. Just because our opinion is different from yours does not mean that we are jobless loosers. You should be ashamed.

 

Enjoy your time in front of the television tonight.

Edited by Phantom_Dog

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For the record I do happen to have a job. I patrol the northeastern border of Afghanistan searching for thugs who would love nothing more than to put a bullet in in the brain of every American they come across. I too have a family that I would love to spend time with, but I am here being called out on patrol at all hours of the day and night. At this moment the best I can do is to spend a little time online. It is not a particularly pleasant job, but a very rewarding one. I pray that the people of this this country will appreciate their newly found rights better than you do.

 

Phantom Dog, We're sure the right thinking people in Afghanistan appreciate your efforts more than you know. Be assured that we certainly thank you for your Service and Sacrifice. We know what it's like to look down the barrel of a rifle into the darkness at night, watching and listening for the enemy, half a world away from home and family.

 

Tommorrow morning we will attend the burial of a hometown Marine hero , 20 years old, the victim of an IED in Iraq. HE was a chum and high school team mate of my son. His brother is a crew chief on a helicopter, who is coming home from Iraq for his brother's funeral. When the Marines came to Scott's mother's door, she said "Which one?".

 

God Bless you and keep you and know that you are our heroes in the Global War against Terrorism. Keep safe and return to Geocache your butt off!!! --LEAD DOG

 

;)

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I thought this thread was about Tom and that other thing. What happened to Tom and his issue?

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Below is a post written at MnGCA forums. Our president has started talks with the DNR and has shared what appears to be all the info with us. I don't know if this openness is because a "vocal minority" forced the issue or not, but it is weclome by all. And he has received many thanks and compliments for the openness. Hopefully we will find a receptive DNR, although I doubt it. And hopefully we can focus our efforts at the DNR, not at our own board.

 

I will thank SB publically here. He claims not to read these forums, but we all know that is not true.

 

So Thanks MnGCA, please keep it up and let me know if you want my help.

 

tomslusher

 

The MnGCA Board has contacted the Minnesota DNR in reference to their current geocaching policy. We have been fortunate enough to receive a positive response from our initial contact by several members of the staff including Brad Moore (Assistant Commissioner) and Courtland Nelson (Parks and Recreation Department Director) regarding reviewing and updating the current Minnesota DNR geocaching policy.

 

We are currently in the process of scheduling the first of several meetings with the first planned within the next several weeks. The first meeting will only be a preliminary sit down discussion that will focus on introducing the respective stake holders within the DNR as well establishing a relationship between the DNR and the MnGCA. We would like to be able to understand the issues as perceived by the DNR as well as letting the DNR know what the MnGCA perceives as the issues. The outcome of the discussions made during the preliminary meeting will determine the direction and frequency of future DNR meetings.

 

Included below is the text of a letter that was sent the day after the phone call was made. Please note that personally identifiable information including home addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and last names were removed from those individuals that are not a public figure (i.e. the MnGCA Board members and Three Rivers’ staff).

 

Letter included below:

 

Quote:

William [edited]

[street address]

Apple Valley, MN 55124

[phone number]

[e-mail address]

 

November 29, 2005

 

Mr. Courtland Nelson

Director, Minnesota State Parks

Minnesota Department of Natural Resources

500 Lafayette Rd

Saint Paul, MN 55155-4036

 

Mr. Nelson,

 

My name is William [edited] and I am the President of the Minnesota Geocaching Association (MnGCA) which represents a large group of active geocachers throughout the State of Minnesota. I am writing you to follow through on the phone conversation that you had with Terry [edited] on November 29th about setting up a meeting to discuss making an update to your current geocaching policy.

 

The MnGCA is interested in discussing and updating the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources’ geocaching policy. The current DNR policy has been in place since September 1st, 2005 but due to new limitations and restrictions put in place by the world’s largest geocaching listing service, Groundspeak’s geocaching.com, the current policy is no longer a valid option for geocachers in Minnesota and thus does not add any benefit to Minnesota DNR parks. We are looking to work with the DNR to make their geocaching policy an easy read and of benefit to all interested parties including the DNR, geocachers, and all park visitors.

 

The MnGCA has worked with Erin [edited], a Recreation Specialist from the City of Duluth Parks and Recreation Department, up through last May to create a useful and friendly policy that meets the needs of both the Duluth Parks and Recreation Department and geocachers. Building on the continued success of the Duluth policy, the MnGCA presented a similar policy to Tom [edited], Linda [edited], and Marlene [edited] of the Three Rivers Park District on November 10th, 2005 that integrated many of Three Rivers’ current requirements with the MnGCA’s suggested updates. The updated Three Rivers Policy is currently under serious consideration and we should hear back about its success in mid-December.

 

The MnGCA is interested in having an open discussion with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources on how we may be able to serve the needs of State Parks’ staff and geocachers throughout Minnesota. We appreciate the opportunity you have given us to present various statistics, other regional and local geocaching policies that have been in place and working for some time, and ways we can work to open up Minnesota State Parks to geocaching again. We look forward to meeting with you and your staff in the next few weeks.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

William [edited]

MnGCA President

 

CC: Brad Moore, MN DNR Assistant Commissioner

Kevin [edited], MnGCA Secretary

 

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I will thank SB publically here. He claims not to read these forums, but we all know that is not true.

 

So Thanks MnGCA, please keep it up and let me know if you want my help.

 

Gosh, Tom, I'm sure they're going to welcome you with open arms now that you've called their president a liar in the forums. Hello, anybody home?

 

:anitongue::laughing:

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I will thank SB publically here.  He claims not to read these forums, but we all know that is not true.

 

So Thanks MnGCA, please keep it up and let me know if you want my help.

 

Gosh, Tom, I'm sure they're going to welcome you with open arms now that you've called their president a liar in the forums. Hello, anybody home?

 

:lol::D

I'm not trying to get back into their good graces, as I don't care about that (which I am sure most noticed). If I gave you that impression, I am sorry. I just felt I should set the record straight and let people know what is going on.

 

Thanks for the concern though. Have a great Christmas season,

 

tomslusher

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