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tomslusher

Mngca-you Won't Believe This

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Anyone reading these forums, you gotta see what is going on with the Minnesota GeoCaching Association.

 

1. One of the MnGCA boardmembers (pearhead) is in private discussions with the DNR concerning opening geocaching up in state parks. He will not share with the membership what our plan is or what is being discussed. I have been trying to get this information and have been stonewalled. He actually told several of us that because we weren't in the "loop" as he called it by not being board members, we didn't need to concern ourselves with it. And if we didn't like it we could wait until the elections next fall. That we were powerless to do anything because we never voted in the last elections. And if this is untrue and he is not in private discussions, he refuses to tell me so.

 

2. The board has steadfastly refused to open board meetings up to any members who would like to attend and observe. We have always agreed that we would be more than willing to leave if sensitive issues were discussed. And then they gets extremely agitated and upset when some considers the fact that there could be a hidden agenda. The president (silentbob) posted "I do not appreciate the insinuation that we are hiding things", when they refuse to allow anyone to prove them right by attending the meetings.

 

3. I have been banned from posting on the forums by silentbob (president and website guy/gal) for calling myself a jackass. This was my second violation. I did a search of our president/web guy/gal and found him using cuss words at least 13 times. And these are direct quotes from him, not him quoting someone else. There are tons of those. But apparently that is ok.

 

4. And the president is using the membership directory to send personal emails to people (myself) at their home email address that is not supposed to be listed on the website for personal rants against me. I specifically opted out of having my email used for anything other that official business. I wonder what other information he is compiling about us. He has my home address. If I suspiciously disappear, please send the authorities in that direction.

 

And these are the people we entrust with getting geocaching open in state parks. And anywhere else for that matter.

 

The MnGCA also provides a way for people to come together .... From their mission statement. Doesn't sound like they adhere to that either. What a load of crap.

 

tomslusher

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And these are the people we entrust with getting geocaching open in state parks.  And anywhere else for that matter.

I can't comment on anything else you've said in your post but I will reply to this part....

 

Doesn't seem to me you ARE 'trusting' them.... IE; if you have entrusted them to do the negotiating to get geocaching policies set then you will let THEM take care of it.

 

If someone is put into a postition of leadership it is very ineffectual for them to be constantly referring to the general membership for approval for every little thing they do.... either you trust them to do what's right for the group as a whole or you don't. Either way, I doubt the DNR is going to be very open to having sit down negotiations with hundreds of geocachers at one time.

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one thing to note for anyone outside the MNGCA boards, Tom's point of view is not held by everyone.

 

Heck, I know I didn't vote for any of the board (I started caching a week before the election, and didn't even sign up with MNGCA til after), but so far the volunteers on the board seem to be trying to make things better, so I'm happy. I sure would never want their job...I'd rather be caching than trying to work with various government officals.

 

But that's just me :anitongue:

Celticwulf

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2. The board has steadfastly refused to open board meetings up to any members who would like to attend and observe. We have always agreed that we would be more than willing to leave if sensitive issues were discussed.

Since you bring it up on a public forum, allow us to add our three cents worth: It has been our experience that most reputable social organizations allow the general membership to attend board meetings as observors. Why wouldn't they? Indeed many organizations encourage it, as the more member participation, the stronger the organization... :D Also, somebody needs to bring the snacks!!

 

As a matter of fact, it is common enough that some organizations' bylaws even prohibit a certain number of board members from meeting together privately for the purpose of discussing organization business, for the very purpose of preventing backroom politics and activities by the board that are not known to the general membership ("hiding" something?).

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2.  The board has steadfastly refused to open board meetings up to any members who would like to attend and observe.  We have always agreed that we would be more than willing to leave if sensitive issues were discussed.

For heaven sakes. This geocaching. What sort of "sensitive issues" are there involved with this sport?

 

From this message and another one posted earlier about non-member restrictions (a message I personally don't feel should have been posted in these forums), I'm glad I'm not living in that area.

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Um, since I agree with Patrick that you brought it up on a public forum... do you really want to be associated with people that take geocaching SO seriously that they are having secret meetings? Let them have their stupid secret meetings...who cares? No matter what comes out of the meetings, they still do not own geocaching, and never will. While I agree with you in principle, there are are more important things to concern yourself with if your willing to get up on a soapbox..how about considering some of the following:

 

1. The war in Iraq

2. The supreme court violating our freedom of speech rights

3. The second amendment

4. Religion...of any kind

5. The way overweight people make us skinny folk out to be anorexics

6. High school teachers taking sexual advantage of underage youth

7. Paris Hiltons boyfriends

8. Etc., Etc., Etc.

 

See how many other things are more important than these F&C%t@rds and their ridiculous obession with geocaching? Just another note...it's typically the same people that are WAY TOO into events and organizations and laws that lose the real meaning of geocaching. Hey, I love to get numbers and stats just as much as the next guy, but but the minute I get high blood pressure because of it, I'll stop. I understand where your coming from, but just remember this: If they're going to all this effort to make you feel isolated, who's the one who REALLY cares?

Edited by Miss Eagerbeaver

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Miss eagerbeaver, I also agree with you and Patrick to a point. But these people are using my name by saying they represent me when they are talking to the DNR and other organizations. I would love to see the MN DNR open to geocaching but the way these people are "more than likely" doing it is not the way required to get the job done. but becasue they refuse to show us or let us "in the loop" how am I supposed to feel comfortable with their direction or agree to let them continue to use my name?

 

I truely would love to geocache in state parks, but maybe your right, it may not be worth the effort I am putting in.

 

tomslusher

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to patrick, elmo, and eagarbeaver...

 

In reality, I have no problem being associated with some of these people. Partially because, in the very little over a month I've been geocaching, I've met some of the MnGCA board, and they are very cool people trying to do the best they can...but they are human and they are not paid to "be the board"...if they were paid, I'd have much higher standards...but they are trying to do the best they can with what time they have...

 

Also...they have NOT said "if you don't join you can't geocache". All they have said is that, if you want to have a say in what the MnGCA is doing, please become a member so we can count you as suporters of geocaching in Minnesota. Nobody has ever said that if you don't become a member of MnGCA you can't cache...the reason they want people to be members is so that the geocachers of Minnesota have a central voice that can raise concerns about decisions made by the government. As we've seen in Minnesota alone, we've got park departments that like to have their parks used (Duluth, MN) versus park departments that just don't get it (Minnesota DNR). Instead of yelling and whining, the MnGCA is trying to provide a single message saying that the MN DNR policy is not a good one for Minnesota as a whole.

 

To everyone concerned about MnGCA politics, if you are living in Minnesota, join the membership and from what I've seen you will be listened too...especially if you have a solution to the problem you bring forth. If not, you're wecome to come cache in Minnesota and see how great our state is. If you're judging how we are as an organization or state based on the words of some on message boards...realize people dissagree and sometimes it gets ugly (as seen on message boards). In reality, people dissagree...and everyone has to deal with that in general.

 

*sigh* Sorry on my rant...I'm just getting frustrated about people caring more about their own opinions than making sure that caching as a whole is getting better for everyone involved.

 

Celticwulf

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Ok, I know you don't know me, but take it for what it's worth...

 

TRUST ME...

State government has little to no regard for what you or your organization has to say. If they want to allow geocaching in their state parks, they will. If they have no intention of allowing geocaching in their state parks, they won't. They are only meeting with your people to (more than likely) humor them. My guess is that it will take a major plea on local governments part to change their mind. Then again, how motivated are local goverments going to be to make such efforts when their parks are just now getting the visitor numbers they want? Please do not ask me how I know, I would not want to divulge that information. Your best bet is to get out of this organization and just geocache as the majority of us do, or make yourself crazy and stick with it. Like I said before, I am totally sympathetic to your points, but I don't think geocaching is where you should put your passion. Make it something worth while.

 

PS - As a sidenote, I would like to say that the state is probably thinking about the whole "nature as it is" vs "people to enjoy it" debate. Age old, dates back to the Roosevelt years. There will never be a clear cut solution, and I'm guessing their main problem is that they want people there to enjoy nature and to have free, open space to enjoy, not be there for a "mission" and get out, meanwhile ruining other people's (who are there JUST to enjoy nature) time. While geocachers like you and I do both, I have serious doubts that the state can see it that way. Just my 8 cents worth.

Edited by Miss Eagerbeaver

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TRUST ME...

State government has little to no regard for what you or your organization has to say.

I'm not sure I can trust you on that.

 

In Indiana the DNR worked closely with geocachers to organize a workable policy on caching in state parks. In Michigan, MiGO worked with DNR to revise their geocaching policies. West Virginia geocachers helped the DNR set this policy in place which has led to ZERO caches being denied since the institution of the permit policy and all existing caches were grandfathered in.

 

As for individual geocachers, Keystone worked on more than half a dozen geocaching policies in three states, all of which have allowed for geocaches rather than banning them. I know of other states where geocachers and geocaching organizations have been involved in setting policy and providing an atmosphere of trust and accountability to the DNR.

 

Above all, the DNR want people to use their parks safely. They make money when that happens. A big part of making sure they're open to geocaching is presenting ourselves as an organized group of individuals who are willing to work with them for the good of their parks.

 

Local geocaching politics aside, this is big news for Minnesota. I appreciate being kept informed on this. As for the angst in the local groups, I'd really prefer to see that kept in your local forums. There's no point in airing your dirty laundry here.

 

Bret

Edited by CYBret

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Let me clarify myself. When I say "state", I mean the general state government, not the DNR specifically. When I said "little to no regard" I meant that in a caching/no caching way, not specifics such as licensing, regulations, etc. I still think that if they don't want to allow geocaching, they won't. I also still believe that it will take a push from local government park and recreation departments to implement it. Hey, we'll agree to disagree. I don't even live in Minnesota and quite honestly haven't even been there. Just thought the topic was interesting. I agree that we both need to work together for the good of the parks. Thanks! :o

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As a matter of course, the MiGO board also prefers to keep "preliminary" discussions and informaiton close to their chest while in active convesations about caching with the DNR and then to announce things when they are finalized. The DNR has come to trust MiGO and uses the group in the way it was intended - as a single point of contact between their group and the cachers of Michigan. If the DNR in MN is using the MnGCA the same way... I can only say that you're very lucky. It's been extremely effective in Michigan.

 

So I don't actually think it's entirely unusual. It's a tough line to walk. But not altogether suprising to me.

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.

 

There's no point in airing your dirty laundry here.

 

Speak for yourself, Cy. Some of us are very interested in dirty laundry and applaud those who will air it here on this forum. Anyway that's MY nine cents worth. :D

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allow us to add our three cents worth

 

Just my 8 cents worth

 

Anyway that's MY nine cents worth.

 

Am I in some kind of a competition here and don't know about it? I'll raise you a dime! :D

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Speak for yourself, Cy. Some of us are very interested in dirty laundry and applaud those who will air it here on this forum. Anyway that's MY nine cents worth. :D

I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking as one of the moderators for this forum. :D

 

Bret

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Speak for yourself, Cy. Some of us are very interested in dirty laundry and applaud those who will air it here on this forum. Anyway that's MY nine cents worth. :D

I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking as one of the moderators for this forum. :D

 

Bret

Yes, SIR!!

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I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking as one of the moderators for this forum. :D

 

Bret

Yes, SIR!!

Now that'll be ten cents, pleeze.

 

Bret

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Now that'll be ten cents, pleeze.

 

Bret

Didn't the Eager Beaver already raise it past a dime? Anyway, I've got a quarter - will anyone do my dirty laundry for me for 25 cents? :D

 

Mrs. Car54

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In Indiana the DNR worked closely with geocachers to organize a workable policy on caching in state parks.

Sorry, not true! There were only a couple of select geocachers that worked on that policy from where I sit. The rest of the community was shut out because we did not have a clue that discussions were even under way. There is nothing better than hearing SURPRISE! I can relate to the frustration here.

 

In practice it sounds like the same situation here. If the state is talking with the directors then make a request to the state for that information under FOIA. Even if it is non-rule administrative code you most likely have a right to make comment. That is really sad when you have to request the informaiton from the state rather than the organization who supposedly represents your geocaching interests.

 

Sounds like it might be time for a second geocaching club to organize in MN, one that will truly represent their members rather than dictating policy in a scret back room somewhere.

 

Geocaching politics. Catch it!

Edited by Phantom_Dog

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In Indiana the DNR worked closely with geocachers to organize a workable policy on caching in state parks.

Sorry, not true! There were only a couple of select geocachers that worked on that policy from where I sit.

From where I sit I'm trying to see how these aren't the same thing.

 

From where I sit, I don't even live in Indiana and I had been aware that a new policy was coming since early 2004 and was aware of the former policy long before that. How did I know? I asked. It was as easy as that.

 

Sounds like it might be time for a second geocaching club to organize in MN, one that will truly represent their members rather than dictating policy in a scret back room somewhere.

 

Great idea. Give the DNR another group to talk to. Show them that we can't even work together let alone work with them. That'll instill confidence about those techno-geeks running around in their parks.

 

Bret

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I guess what bothers me about the Mngca group is, "Who gave them the authority to speak for me as a geocacher?" I maybe off base with this but it seems like they are a self-appointed, self-serving cliche who think they speak for all the cachers in the state and unless you pay to join thier exclusive club, you don't get to have a say in discusssions that can effect the entire community.

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I guess what bothers me about the Mngca group is, "Who gave them the authority to speak for me as a geocacher?" I maybe off base with this but it seems like they are a self-appointed, self-serving cliche who think they speak for all the cachers in the state and unless you pay to join thier exclusive club, you don't get to have a say in discusssions that can effect the entire community.

There is no cost to join MnGCA. You go to their website, and if you want to be a voting member, agree to abide by their bylaws. Nothing exclusive about it.

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(I am in no way associated with MnGCA... although I feel their pain)

 

Yea, I like the "what gives them the authority to speak for me" attitude some folks seem to have.

 

What gives them the authority?

Well no authority but they ARE the ones who....

 

Took the time, and made the effort.....

1) Made the effort to organize a geocaching group.

2) Went thru the red tape to form a non-profit organization, create a website, organize events, meetings, seminars etc.

3) Took the time and made the effort to contact the proper people at the DNR.

4) Went in with the intent of presenting a professional and organized message to the DNR.

 

THAT is what gives them the authority. Quit griping and be part of the solution rather than slamming everyone who IS trying to be part of the solution.

 

A united, cohesive and professional image has to be presented to the "powers that be"... if we come across as a bunch of bickering, semi-psychotic loonies you can be dadgum sure geocaching will be shut down in DNR properties.

 

As for how someone serving in a volunteer position is self serving... not getting that. They have nothing to personally gain by trying to influence DNR policy one way over another.

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In Indiana the DNR worked closely with geocachers to organize a workable policy on caching in state parks.

Sorry, not true! There were only a couple of select geocachers that worked on that policy from where I sit.

From where I sit I'm trying to see how these aren't the same thing.

 

From where I sit, I don't even live in Indiana and I had been aware that a new policy was coming since early 2004 and was aware of the former policy long before that. How did I know? I asked. It was as easy as that.

 

Sounds like it might be time for a second geocaching club to organize in MN, one that will truly represent their members rather than dictating policy in a scret back room somewhere.

 

Great idea. Give the DNR another group to talk to. Show them that we can't even work together let alone work with them. That'll instill confidence about those techno-geeks running around in their parks.

 

Bret

It must be nice to be within the inner circle of Groundspeak. The rest of us lowly, ordinary, average geocachers can just keep guessing as to what the geocaching tsars will come up with next.

 

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is that no one is working together here. Again, it is a select group dictating policy behind closed doors. I guess the rest of us peons will just have to shut up and stay in our place.

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Quit griping and be part of the solution rather than slamming everyone who IS trying to be part of the solution.

 

I think the point that Tom is trying to make is that he and his fellow members would LIKE to be part of the solution, but by hiding information and having closed meeting (not solely with the DNR) they are not allowing them to have the say that they feel they deserve.

 

Disclaimer: Miss Eagerbeaver is in NO way going to debate this topic, as she lives in Indiana, and quite frankly, doesn't really care that much. She just has her points...she see's both sides of the proverbial pancake.

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It must be nice to be within the inner circle of Groundspeak. The rest of us lowly, ordinary, average geocachers can just keep guessing as to what the geocaching tsars will come up with next.

 

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is that no one is working together here. Again, it is a select group dictating policy behind closed doors. I guess the rest of us peons will just have to shut up and stay in our place.

What inner circle? I was at a CITO event in Johnson county and asked Indy Diver what was up with the DNR policy. If you had been there you could have done the same thing while eating hotdogs and cookies with the rest of us lowly ordinary average geocachers.

 

As for "no one working together" in Indiana, check out this thread to see just how organized Indiana is getting.

 

You should be happy. They're apparently even allowing dogs in. :rolleyes:

 

Bret

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It must be nice to be within the inner circle of Groundspeak.  The rest of us lowly, ordinary, average geocachers can just keep guessing as to what the geocaching tsars will come up with next.

 

You have hit the nail on the head.  The problem is that no one is working together here.  Again, it is a select group dictating policy behind closed doors.  I guess the rest of us peons will just have to shut up and stay in our place.

What inner circle? I was at a CITO event in Johnson county and asked Indy Diver what was up with the DNR policy. If you had been there you could have done the same thing while eating hotdogs and cookies with the rest of us lowly ordinary average geocachers.

 

As for "no one working together" in Indiana, check out this thread to see just how organized Indiana is getting.

 

You should be happy. They're apparently even allowing dogs in. :rolleyes:

 

Bret

Yeah for Xena :ph34r: if we ever move back.

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(What gives them the authority?

Well no authority but they ARE the ones who....

 

Took the time, and made the effort.....

1) Made the effort to organize a geocaching group.

2) Went thru the red tape to form a non-profit organization, create a website, organize events, meetings, seminars etc.

3) Took the time and made the effort to contact the proper people at the DNR.

4) Went in with the intent of presenting a professional and organized message to the DNR.

 

THAT is what gives them the authority.

So which is it? First you say they don't have authority but then list 4 things they did and that gave them authority.

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Here is the latest in the saga. The MnGCA Vice-President actually posted this publically in the MnGCA forums. He was refering to me, a longtime MnGCA member.

 

Personally, if I had my way you would have been out of here a long time ago, not because of any AUP violation but because you simply don't seem to fit or have a desire to fit within this organization.

 

(AUP = aceptable use policy. I used the word "jackass" in their forums, directed towards myself.)

 

Didn't Hitler say something like this? It used to be a good organization that wanted to advance geocaching in Minnesota, now, I don't know what.

 

tomslusher

Edited by tomslusher

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(AUP = aceptable use policy. I used the word "jackass" in their forums, directed towards myself.)

What a coinkidink. We have something very similar here:

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Ponder those sage words for the next three days, k?

 

Bret

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Why can't everyone just SHUT UP and go geocaching? It's just a game, folks, and there are too many people who take it too seriously. The MnGCA board is doing the best they can with the resources they have available. There aren't any closed backroom board meetings--the Board meeting minutes are posted on the MnGCA website for all to read, and now that's not good enough for some people. Why doesn't everyone just download a couple hundred waypoints, shut your computers off, and just go geocaching, instead of bashing each other on the forums? People nit-picking everything through the forums is one of the reasons I took the opportunity to leave the MnGCA board when it presented itself, and I believe the MnGCA is a stronger organization with the direction it went after I left the board.

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I did download a few waypoints, went out to the truck and found I have a nail in one of my tires. :laughing: Now I have to find about 500 bucks because the other 3 tires have about 65,000 miles on them. oh well. Hope ever body has a great weekend. :o

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Why can't everyone just SHUT UP and go geocaching?

Well said!

Well said? NOT! Telling somebody to shut up in the forums makes no sense, nevermind being just plain rude. The forums are for communication between geocachers about geocaching. Are you saying we should not have forums at all and just go geocaching? Or just discuss things you think relevent, in a manner pleasing to you? :laughing:

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The board members should be willing to answer any questions that come up from members. The have an obligation to answer in good faith, even if the person asking isn't dealing in good faith. That's the nature of the game as it should be played. It is possible to discuss things with a land manager that can't be divulged to the general public. However those things can be spoken about in general if not specific.

 

Some people keep information secret as that's how they feel thier power. Some people won't be happy even if you spoon fed them the answer they asked for.

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Well said? NOT! Telling somebody to shut up in the forums makes no sense, nevermind being just plain rude. The forums are for communication between geocachers about geocaching. Are you saying we should not have forums at all and just go geocaching? Or just discuss things you think relevent, in a manner pleasing to you?

 

I criticized a well known cacher in my area on this forum once and was told to shut up several times, in so many words. No-one ever stood up for me. Things are strange that way I guess. I do agree, however, saying "shut up" is rude, it has always bothered me. Peoples opinions will always vary and there is nothing we can do about it........I still get a little disheartened to see people argue about geocaching, but hey, I'm still a "newbie" so my opinion really doesn't matter.

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Well said? NOT! Telling somebody to shut up in the forums makes no sense, nevermind being just plain rude. The forums are for communication between geocachers about geocaching. Are you saying we should not have forums at all and just go geocaching? Or just discuss things you think relevent, in a manner pleasing to you?

 

I criticized a well known cacher in my area on this forum once and was told to shut up several times, in so many words. No-one ever stood up for me. Things are strange that way I guess. I do agree, however, saying "shut up" is rude, it has always bothered me. Peoples opinions will always vary and there is nothing we can do about it........I still get a little disheartened to see people argue about geocaching, but hey, I'm still a "newbie" so my opinion really doesn't matter.

People disagreeing with your facts or opinions in the forums is not the same as being told to shut up, even if it is in "so many words"...

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People disagreeing with your facts or opinions in the forums is not the same as being told to shut up, even if it is in "so many words"...

 

Well said? NOT!

 

The forums are for communication between geocachers about geocaching. Are you saying we should not have forums at all and just go geocaching? Or just discuss things you think relevent, in a manner pleasing to you?

 

You kinda make my points for me, thanks.

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People disagreeing with your facts or opinions in the forums is not the same as being told to shut up, even if it is in "so many words"...

 

Well said? NOT!

 

The forums are for communication between geocachers about geocaching. Are you saying we should not have forums at all and just go geocaching? Or just discuss things you think relevent, in a manner pleasing to you?

 

You kinda make my points for me, thanks.

I can't respond to that, I'm too dense to make sense of it, but This thread is not about you GM, or me, or whether or not we will ever agree, on anything, or whther you think you have been abused in the past on the forums. It's about whether or not Geocaching organizations' leadership should conduct secret meetings or be inclusive and respectful to their membership and not make judgements about whether or not they "fit in"... And my opinion is that the leadership should conduct it's business in the sunshine. If you agree, fine, if you don't, I'm not going to be rude and tell you to shut up, that's all. :rolleyes:

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I can't respond to that, I'm too dense to make sense of it, but This thread is not about you GM, or me, or whether or not we will ever agree, on anything, or whther you think you have been abused in the past on the forums. It's about whether or not Geocaching organizations' leadership should conduct secret meetings or be inclusive and respectful to their membership and not make judgements about whether or not they "fit in"... And my opinion is that the leadership should conduct it's business in the sunshine. If you agree, fine, if you don't, I'm not going to be rude and tell you to shut up, that's all. 

 

Lets chalk this up to an agreement between us, however I do not think you are dense.

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