Caches Near Rr Tracks?!

[+iTooth]

I recently placed a micro on a sculpture in a public park in my hometown. There is a RR track that runs nearby (within 30-40') of this area. The park is separated from the tracks by a hedge of vegetation and a small bulkhead. People frequent this area daily. The sculpture itself has a concrete path and bench surrounding it. Despite this, the reviewer says one cannot place caches within 150' of a RR track. There are other caches nearby within the 150' limit as well. Has anybody run into a similar situation? This would be a really cool cache and not dangerous to the public or a threat to the RR.

Edited July 29, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+Kealia]

Those are the guidelines to keep people safe and keep them off the tracks and RR right of way.

You may have luck explaing the situation to the reviewer and writing something on the page like "do not cross the tracks....", but keep in mind that the other caches may have been grandfathered in before that rule/guideline was in place.

[+iTooth]

I wondered about the grandfather clause too, until I remembered that another local cache within 10' of a track was approved in June. Also, does the RR company own public park land if it encroaches within 150'? This is not a high speed track either...it is at the entrance to town and runs past the mall, Wal-Mart, Staples, etc....trains come through with horns blaring...not likely to injure anybody...esp. savvy geocachers

Edited July 29, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+The Leprechauns]

If you obtained permission from the park, that goes a long way to assure the reviewer that the cache is located safely, and not on railroad property -- so tell the reviewer about that. The 150 foot rule does *not* mean that the railroad "owns" everything within 150 feet of the tracks. Rights of way vary greatly. As the owner, it's your job to research who controls the land, and to tell the cache reviewer about it. They only have maps to go by. Sometimes it helps to submit a couple of photos of the area, like a close-up of the cache area plus an area view that shows both the cache area and the railroad tracks (way over there on the other side of the huge bushes and the tall wall).

[+WascoZooKeeper]

CCC, I had a somewhat similar situation with a cache I recently placed, in that the tools available to the reviewer would show the cache to be within about 30' or so of very busy RR tracks. However -- at that particular location, the RR tracks are about 40' above grade, with a 20' tall concrete abutment, and a paved bicycle path running within about 10' of the cache location, etc. I took photographs of the location and painstakingly explained the terrain in an e-mail and a reviewer note. I tried to make it perfectly clear that someone would really have to make an extraordinary, and completely absurd & unnecessary, effort to encroach on the tracks to reach the cache. I did all this proactively, when the cache was first submitted, and it was approved without any questions.

 

Having said that -- if you make your case and your reviewer still does not want to approve the listing, it would behoove you to just move on and find another location. Don't get so locked into the notion that there is ONE, and ONLY ONE, suitable location for your cache, and it has to be THAT location at all costs. There are precious few locations that are really worth getting into a fight about.

 

Edit: Yeah, what Lep said. I was in the middle of composing my message when he posted his. He's worth listening to, even if he is a toadie.

Edited July 29, 2005 by WascoZooKeeper

[+iTooth]

I offered to send photos but the reviewer was uninterested...but thanks for that advice! I do have a tendency to get "locked in" to my goal, esp. when I have painstakingly crafted a fine micro that will fit on the sculpture perfectly....arrgh!

Edited July 29, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+StarBrand]

I have one about 40 foot from the RR track but it is at a state hiway roadside historical turnout with picnic tables and quite a bit of vegetation. The reviewer just needed the addtional info to feel better about it. Send your pictures, make your plea again, point out the owner of the property. I don't see a reason (from your OP and description) that the guideline can't be overturned.

[+iTooth]

What you just said is the reason I am pursuing this one. I have had caches rejected before, but for better reasons than this.

[+Wander Lost]

I do have a tendency to get "locked in" to my goal, esp. when I have painstakingly crafted a fine micro that will fit on the sculpture perfectly....arrgh!

I'd be concerned with this as well. Putting a cache near a piece of public art is great, putting a cache on the sculpture is another thing entirely.

[+iTooth]

The sculpture is a vertical pole, made of brass and iron that honors our local logging industry. It is "industrial" strength and made for touching. There is no barrier that prevents people from observing it up close and personal.

[+sbell111]

If you calmly and rationally made your case to the approver and they still turned you down, there is nothing wrong with making your case in here.

 

Do you have permission from the park?

 

Did you take some pics? Lets see them.

[+iTooth]

Thanks for asking sbell111. We are going out to dinner tonight and I am stopping by on the way to take some pix. I will post them here (if I can figure out how to do it...I'm a newbie to these forums)....check this page out later, CCC.

[+sbell111]

... I will post them here (if I can figure out how to do it...I'm a newbie to these forums)....check this page out later, CCC.

Many people use web-based photo sites, but an easier way is to simply upload the pics to one of your archived caches. Next, click on the pics link and the pic until you have just the pic pulled up, like this. Copy the URL for the pic. Finally, post your reply to this thread and click the 'IMG' button. Paste the URL in the little box. Click on 'OK' and you will finally have you pic posted to the thread, like this:

[+iTooth]

Thanks for the tip. We'll give it a try!

[+iTooth]

Here is a picture of the sculpture w/ regard to the RR tracks. My kids are playing around the sculpture itself. There is a barrier of bushes surrounding the exhibit.

 

Edited July 30, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+iTooth]

Here is another perspective that shows public accessibility:

 

 

Edited July 30, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+Glenn]

I offered to send photos but the reviewer was uninterested...but thanks for that advice!  I do have a tendency to get "locked in" to my goal, esp. when I have painstakingly crafted a fine micro that will fit on the sculpture perfectly....arrgh!

Reviewers are people too. You get some that will work with you and...

I'd send the pics. Whats the wrost that could happen? The reviewer already has said no.

[+Team Cotati]

I wondered about the grandfather clause too, until I remembered that another local cache within 10' of a track was approved in June.  Also, does the RR company own public park land if it encroaches within 150'?  This is not a high speed track either...it is at the entrance to town and runs past the mall, Wal-Mart, Staples, etc....trains come through with horns blaring...not likely to injure anybody...esp. savvy geocachers

Do you happen to have the waypoint name of that cache that which is within 10' of a RR track?

Edited July 30, 2005 by Team Cotati

[+iTooth]

The cache is entitled "Black Heart", wpt. # GCPFBP

[Yankees Win!]

Cool sculpture. Are people encouraged to climb on/around it? If so, I think your cache looks like fun.

[+iTooth]

Yes, it was designed for "up close and personal" access....but not to scale up to get a closer look at the guy on top!

[+WascoZooKeeper]

Doesn't look to me like the bushes would provide any kind of barrier to discourage people from going on the tracks, though. You have to keep in mind that many people only get about 30' accuracy with their GPSr (although that area looks so wide open I would hope they'd get a lock on five or six satellites and much better accuracy). Also, a good many people are likely to think that the cache is hidden in the bushes around the sculpture, rather than on the sculpture itself. That alone is likely to take them down on the railbed (or very close to it).

 

All you can do is send the pics to the reviewer and ask him/her to reconsider. You can put a big bold warning in your cache page to STAY AWAY FROM THE TRAIN TRACKS but that may not make a difference since the reviewer has no guarantee you won't remove it after the cache has been approved.

 

And if he/she still doesn't go for . . . well, too bad, best to move on and try another spot.

[+iTooth]

I know , I know...RR tracks are dangerous and that warning would be duly noted in the description. This is not an Amtrak high speed railway here. Grain and lumber trains come rolling by at ~5mph with horns blaring. There would be no reason for anyone to be on the tracks.

[Yankees Win!]

... Also, a good many people are likely to think that the cache is hidden in the bushes around the sculpture, rather than on the sculpture itself. That alone is likely to take them down on the railbed (or very close to it). ... You can put a big bold warning in your cache page to STAY AWAY FROM THE TRAIN TRACKS ... And if he/she still doesn't go for . . . well, too bad, best to move on and try another spot.

You're right. I agree that adding warning text to the cache description is a good idea, because even if the cache was named "Directly Beneath the Man on the Pole," some people would still look between the rail and tie for the micro ... even if there was a fence to scale to get to the tracks.

 

But how many times have we read official proclamations in these forums that 'protecting people from precarious situations (or from themselves) is not the responsibility of this website?' We have consistently been told that the reviewers do not subject caches to any standard of quality beyond determining that cache placements do not violate any applicable laws, statutes, regulations or website guidelines.

 

Somehow, I don't think a park commission would place a sculpture or monument on the RR right-of-way and then take efforts to have people visit it.

Edited July 30, 2005 by Yankees Win!

[+iTooth]

The reviewer has just enabled this cache!! YAY....thanks everybody for your comments and suggestions....Ron of CCC

 

Here is the waypoint if you want to see it: GCPWFT

Edited July 30, 2005 by Caching Cowles Clan

[+Marcie/Eric]

I know , I know...RR tracks are dangerous and that warning would be duly noted in the description.  This is not an Amtrak high speed railway here.  Grain and lumber trains come rolling by at ~5mph with horns blaring.  There would be no reason for anyone to be on the tracks.

[$0.02] RR tracks are dangerous. However, I see no real problem with RR's over highways and surface streets. Has anyone ever stood near the tracks while a train is near? They vibrate the tracks and ties, plus sometimes surrounding ground, they make extreme noise, and the have horns that are loud. Why is is some problem with placing within 150ft of tracks, but there are micros right next to busy roadways? -Which are more dangerous in my opinion. The 150ft is a good rule, safe. But it seems just from the single photo that it's too close, unprotected, and easy for some idiot (many adults and kids) or possibly a handicapped person to get to the tracks and get hurt.

 

I also think you're reviewer is a jerk if he was unwilling to take a second look at your photos and further details and description.

 

Put a big warning that "the cache is not on or North of tracks" for example... and study times, then put the train schedule on the cache page too. [/$0.02]

Edited July 30, 2005 by Marcie/Eric

[CoyoteRed]

A few comments...

 

150' from an active rail line is a general rule because of physical and legal danger. The danger from a train is real as the power of a train is awesome. The legal danger is trespassing. They will prosecute.

 

However, there are a couple of other things. Just because a cache encourages someone to be near or cross tracks doesn't mean it should automatically be un-listable. I know of plenty of trails that cross tracks. (One of the reasons I know first hand what it's like to be near a moving train. The horn is ear-splitting, the ground shakes, and you have to brace yourself against the wind. Very scary.) So with some of the above reasoning, I couldn't place a cache if the hunter has to cross any tracks. Let's just keep the guideline to "pblicly accessible" and we'll be cool.

 

If you can get permission to place the cache, then you should be able to place the cache no matter how near the tracks it may be.

 

Thirdly, after reading Brian's comment in another thread about tc.com user's ability to archive caches, considering there is no one over all of the caches on the site and getting a cache listed is simply a matter of convincing your two sponsors it should be done, the community archive facility--even if it has not been found--can take care of a cache that really should be archived. If you can get a consensus from the community that a cache buried between the rails of an active track shouldn't be listed, then it's gone. Doesn't matter if no one has found it. should someone have to risk life and limb to prove that it shouldn't be listed?

 

Conversely, the OP's cache would have probably been listed without much trouble. (I'm talking within the scheme, not on merit.)

[+Team Cotati]

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